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Can't bring myself to watch The Force Awakens more than a couple of times

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The mind trick was the only part that felt too out there for Rey. I was good with everything else. But, that was a real "how did she learn to do that?" moment.



I'm not sure about this, though. I mean no one said they needed to explain everything over again. They didn't need to, and thus didn't.

I don't think they needed to explain everything again, but if you're going to bring something up to get the protagonist out of dodge, you should probably re-introduce it first. It didn't have to be much; when I was talking about it with something else, they had the idea that when getting food for her scrap haul from Simon Pegg, she ends up using the mind trick unknowingly. He tells her the scrap is worth three food portions, then she says its worth four, and he agrees and repeats her saying its worth four. It would only take a couple seconds, and it would reintroduce the mind trick for Rey to use later.

And my point was that, since I keep hearing the idea that TFA was supposed to appeal to newcomers by its defenders (I've heard people use this to justify resetting the world to how it was in the OT with the First Order as the Empire and the Resistance as the Rebels), that doing something like not bothering to explain the technique that was introduced in an earlier film isn't very newcomer friendly. Again, like I mentioned above, they could have done this pretty easily.
 

The Jedi Mind Trick isn't mentioned in the movie as far as I remember and should've been, but I didn't see it as too much of an issue given that it happened only after her mind battle with Kylo Ren. And when she escapes, Kylo Ren says this:
She's just beginning to test her powers. The longer it takes to find her, the more dangerous she becomes.
Which is a pretty good set up, in addition to Kyle Ren's issues in his fight with her, that ultimately allowed her to emerge victorious.
 

RedSwirl

Junior Member
Interestingly enough, neither Luke or Rey had formal light saber training.

Before his fight with Vader in ESB, he:

Turned it on at Obi-wans house
Blocked droid lasers
Force grabbed it and cut off a Wampa arm
Had a fever dream where he faced Vader/Himself

So, I don't think that particular gripe is valid against Rey.

It's not clearly conveyed, but in the middle of ESB Luke spends a significant amount of time training with Yoda.

I don't know if it's been mentioned yet, but at the beginning of TFA Rey has at least had a lot of experience with that staff. She seems to at least be able to handle melee weapons in a street fight sort of way.

But...

I think the difference between Luke and Rey (not going into Anakin, since I think he's a badly written character) is less about what they do using the Force, and more how each of their feats is set up. It's why the Force stuff Rey does feels like an asspull compared to Luke taking out the Death Star at the end of ANH.

In ANH, Luke's use of the Force is well set up. Early in the movie, the training scene with Obi-Wan introduces the idea of relying on the Force and his instincts. After that, there is an set-piece which lasts for a good third of the movie, and includes important events such as Obi-Wan's death and Leia's rescue, which allows the training scene to sink into the back of the viewer's mind and simmer. Then, the movie goes into the Death Star, and only at the very end does it bring back Luke using the Force and trusting his instincts, and the payoff occurs. The introduction and set-up also occurs in a very low-stakes situation (blocking shock bolts in the safety of the Millennium Falcon) and the payoff occurs in a high-stakes situation (blowing up the Death Star) making Luke's use of the Force feel like it was woven well into the story, and that the final scene doesn't come out of nowhere.

TFA, on the other hand, doesn't set up Rey's use of the Force as well, which makes her actions feel less earned and more like an asspull the writers thought up when they wrote themselves into a corner. Rey's first attempt and use of the Force occurs in a fairly high-stakes situation (when she's captured by Ren) and the film doesn't go much into what abilities the Force offers before then. There isn't much to her use of the Force that's set up, and what is isn't as well set up as it was for Luke, since there's barely any time between the set up and payoff. Take Rey's escape: she uses the Jedi Mind Trick. If I remember correctly, this is the first time the Jedi Mind Trick was ever mentioned in the film, making it seem like it came out of nowhere and an asspull (again, I might be wrong about that. I watched TFA once with someone who hadn't seen the OT, and when we reached that part, I had to pause the movie and explain what the hell the Jedi Mind Trick did. After that, I realized I couldn't remember the JMT being brought up at all before in the movie). Sure, it was in the OT, but last time I checked, TFA was supposed to get new people into Star Wars, yet Rey ends up escaping a high stakes situation using something explained in an earlier film.

Also, how the hell did she know how to use the JMT? There might be an explanation for it in another movie, but I shouldn't have to wait for a future movie to make sense of this one.

Since the JMT is her first real use of the Force, and it feels like an asspull, it soured me on her using the Force after, since there's not much time between her escape and her fight with Kylo (at least, not as much time compared to ANH). It made it feel to me like the writers were pulling things out their ass to help her. If the time an idea is left to simmer between introduction and payoff is like baking time, then Rey's use of the Force in TFA feels undercooked. Again, what she accomplishes (on paper) isn't much different from Luke (she won by letting the force in; he won by letting the force in), but the fact that his using of the Force is set up while hers isn't makes all the difference in how each of those moments feel. The one in ANH has good set up; the one in TFA doesn't. The one in ANH feels like it was built up to; the one in TFA doesn't.

Again, I might be wrong about the mind trick, so if I am, please correct me and point me to the scene where it was introduced. Even if it was though, I'd still say there wasn't enough time between Rey first trying out the Force, and the payoff at the end of the movie.

...this post pretty much explains why Rey's use of the force feels so sudden. It's never really explained before hand how Rey is even aware of how to use the force. Ren might even be the first force user she's encountered upon her capture in the film. Luke on the other hand spends a good chunk of the movie with Obi Wan. All Rey has for a teacher up to that point is Han.

MAYBE Rey grasped a lot from stories she'd heard about Luke & co while on Jakku, but the movie seems to imply she didn't even realize those stories were real. The movie really doesn't indicate how much Rey knows about the force before she meets Ren.
 
Very good point. But wait till the Bobby Roberts character see this and tries to push his opinion as fact lol.

Do you... do you think I'm not real? Like, an imaginary person with a NeoGAF account? And did you honestly take the previous interactions we had as me needing you to believe my opinion is fact?

This thread is a trip.

When I asked the same question, I was told that the moment when Kylo Ren tried to poke into her mind was when she learnt how to poke back.

Yeah, it's pretty explicit. Like, there are sound effects punctuating her figuring out a) she can use the force and b) how to use it.

The instant she pulls a vision & a feeling out of his head, it's basically on.

It's not hard to infer/understand at all. And even if it were, Kylo saying "Find her, her powers blah bloof blerg" whatever the dialog was cements it shortly thereafter.

She has a force vision, then a force user mentally probes her (against her will)

There's been an awakening. In a movie called The Force Awakens.

I dont' know why actually seeing it awaken is so hard for people.
 
The main thing stopping me from watching TFA again (and R1) is Disney not supporting 4K Discs. Fortunately that ends this year because I thought both were great films.
 

kswiston

Member
I heard that Bobby Roberts is a pseudonym that the Red Letter Media guys use to post on GAF. They even started a prolific twitter account and got a job at a Portland newspaper under that name to complete the ruse.
 

Seesaw15

Member
Again, I might be wrong about the mind trick, so if I am, please correct me and point me to the scene where it was introduced. Even if it was though, I'd still say there wasn't enough time between Rey first trying out the Force, and the payoff at the end of the movie.

I know George muddled the force during the prequels by introducing midichlorians but its not that complicated. Going by OT rules to use the Force consciously all you have to do be aware of it and believe in yourself. The movie follows that criteria.

1. Confirmation that the Jedi are real. Movie tells Rey that all the rumors and myths she heard growing up are real during her scene with Han.

Rey: The Jedi were real?
Han Solo: I used to wonder about that myself. Thought it was a bunch of mumbo-jumbo. A magical power holding together good and evil, the dark side and the light. Crazy thing is... it's true. The Force. The Jedi... All of it... It's all true.

2. Confirmation that Rey is a Force user/Jedi. Rey has a Jedi flashback/future vision when she touches Luke's Light Saber and Maz tells Rey that she has the force.

Maz Kanata: [to Rey] That lightsaber was Luke's. And his father's before him. And now, it calls to you.

Maz Kanata: I am no Jedi, but I know the Force. It moves through and surrounds every living thing. Close your eyes... Feel it... The light... it's always been there.The saber. Take it.

3. Rey experiences Kylo using the Force to go into her mind and influence her to tell him things. She resist and the next scene she tries it on a Stormtrooper.

The force by nature is a magical asspull but the movie sets it up.
 

Mossybrew

Member
I have watched 4,5,6 almost 50+ times each. .

You lost me there man. I have never been able to get into this kind of obsessive rewatch mentality. The most I've ever watched a movie is probably six times and I'd have to say Aliens and The Matrix share that tie.
 

sphagnum

Banned
I know George muddled the force during the prequels by introducing midichlorians but its not that complicated. Going by OT rules to use the Force consciously all you have to do be aware of it and believe in yourself. The movie follows that criteria.

The Force very clearly has a genetic component once you get to RotJ. "The Force is strong in my family."
 

Surfinn

Member
You're the one posting bullshit like having flashbacks being some unique point worth mentioning. Oh and no, Kylo's saber isn't even close to being as iconic as Darth Maul's. Nor is Rey's theme nearly as good as "Duel of the Fates"

I made the Gaming Side comment because your post is ridiculously padded with bullet points that are either purely subjective or so insignificant they shouldn't warrant mentioning
You sound way more upset about my post than you should be.. Jesus lol. Just because some of what I listed is subjective doesn't mean that my main point doesn't stand.

Which is that people conveniently gloss over the originality introduced in TFA to fit the ridiculous narrative that it's a carbon copy of ANH, completely devoid of orginality.

But please, continue
 
It's not hard to understand, it just feels completely unearned. TFA is flawed.
Sorry, the opinion police have already spoken, and we are wrong. Persist in your wrongness, and you'll get insightful responses with such compelling arguments as "Jesus Christ", and "Jesus fucking Christ" repeated for effect. Because reasons.
 
You're the one posting bullshit like having flashbacks being some unique point worth mentioning. Oh and no, Kylo's saber isn't even close to being as iconic as Darth Maul's. Nor is Rey's theme nearly as good as "Duel of the Fates"

While I do think DotF is better than Rey's theme (but not by a ton. Rey's theme is amazing), I think Kylo's saber will end up being far more memorable than Darth Mauls.
 

Seesaw15

Member
The Force very clearly has a genetic component once you get to RotJ. "The Force is strong in my family."

I get what your saying but there's a difference between a nebulous "The Force is strong in my family" and the Force being microscopic, intelligent life forms that live in our blood cells.
 
FA is the seventh movie in a series that has spawned multiple TV shows aimed at children. It absolutely did not need to explain old shit like the Jedi mind trick again. Yes, I have some gripes about her using it, but not the fact it wasn't explained. Anyone who was too young to see the prequels has grown up with 90% of their summer movie going experiences involving people with super powers. Even if they don't know what a Jedi mind trick is, they get it.

You'd be lost five minutes into the movie when a dude freezes a bullet mid air if you were that unable to follow things. A seventh movie in a saga gets to take shortcuts in the world building departments. That's like THE advantage of a sequel.

Also, we are all Bobby Roberts.
 
It's not hard to understand, it just feels completely unearned. TFA is flawed.

Nobody's saying it's perfect. I'm certainly not saying that, for whatever that's worth. Empire Strikes Back is flawed, hell. Not a one of em isn't flawed in some easily noticeable way.

The idea that her awakening is "unearned" doesn't make much sense to me in that respect, either.

How is she supposed to earn her awakening?

That's like THE advantage of a sequel.

This is a great point, and also I think part of the problem when it comes to the discussions on Star Wars, because so many people wanna introduce a degree of difficulty that says the films can't be/aren't successful unless they absolutely work as introductions to a newcomer who has never heard of, much less seen, a Star Wars. Which is kind of a ridiculous notion, primarily for the reason you just stated.

Also, we are all Bobby Roberts.

Don't put that evil on me.
 
You'd be lost five minutes into the movie when a dude freezes a bullet mid air if you were that unable to follow things. A seventh movie in a saga gets to take shortcuts in the world building departments. That's like THE advantage of a sequel.

This is my problem with some of the criticisms. If you can accept that Kylo Ren performs multiple Force skills that we've never seen before at an advanced level with no explanation, why is it that crazy that Rey can do some "easier" Jedi skills as well. Especially because we don't know anything about her past, which just makes things more interesting in my opinion.
 
It's not hard to understand, it just feels completely unearned. TFA is flawed.

That's my main problem with it as well. I mean, it's an explanation that I guess makes sense in the SW universe (pretty sure it doesn't contradict anything), but it feels unearned and like an asspull.

I think that the movie shoves way too many new concepts at you and doesn't justify them before having other concepts build off of them. For example, I could maybe suspend my belief enough to buy the idea that Kylo using the Force on Rey somehow awakened it in her (I'm pretty sure this is the first movie where anything like this happens), if it's the foundation for explaining why Rey is able to use the Force in the movie, then it's a flimsy one (seeing how it was only introduced in this film and I'm pretty sure that none of the other movies even hinted that such a thing was possible). A flimsy foundation could work if it doesn't push the premise too much, but stuff like knowing how to use the Jedi Mind Trick pushed way too hard and broke my willing suspension of disbelief in the character, taking me out of the movie. Like seriously, how does she know how the Jedi Mind Trick worked? It's like someone said earlier, if the Jedi and the events of the OT are just myths and legends to Rey, how does she know about a specific Jedi technique?

Also, if they maybe introduced the idea at the start of the movie, instead of right before Rey needed to use it (I'm pretty sure that her using the JMT to escape is her next scene after Kylo interrogates her), and let the idea have time to simmer, I would have bought it easier. But as it stands, it basically, like with the JMT, introduces a concept right before it comes into play, which makes it feel unearned.

The Jedi Mind Trick isn't mentioned in the movie as far as I remember and should've been, but I didn't see it as too much of an issue given that it happened only after her mind battle with Kylo Ren. And when she escapes, Kylo Ren says this:

Which is a pretty good set up, in addition to Kyle Ren's issues in his fight with her, that ultimately allowed her to emerge victorious.

I think the set up is passable in that case (it's introduced in TFA and as far as I know, there isn't anything like it in previous movies), but there is still way too little time between the setting up that Rey can use the Force, and Rey actually using the Force (correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure the next scene with Rey after her interrogation is using the JMT). There is a significant amount of time that passes between the set up and payoff in ANH (the Death Star infiltration, Leia's rescue, and the Death Star trench run). With TFA, it feels like it introduces an idea just before the film uses it, making whatever it introduced feel like an asspull.

This is my problem with some of the criticisms. If you can accept that Kylo Ren performs multiple Force skills that we've never seen before at an advanced level with no explanation, why is it that crazy that Rey can do some "easier" Jedi skills as well. Especially because we don't know anything about her past, which just makes things more interesting in my opinion.

First off, a villain being powerful is easier to accept and requires less explanation than if the hero had those same abilities. There's different expectations for each. Villains are obstacles for the hero to overcome, so its easier to accept they are more powerful, since that makes the hero's journey all the more daunting, and makes us more invested to see the hero overcome the powerful villain. The villain being harder to defeat also adds to the stakes, as you wonder what the hero can do to beat such a powerful villain. With the hero, on the other hand, you follow along with them during the movie, and they're the ones you're rooting for, so there's a bit of an expectation that you see their growth and its explained how they become more powerful. We also expect, because there's conflict in the movie, that the villains are at (or very close to) a point where they can prevail against the hero. The more powerful the hero, the lower the stakes. Take the anime One Punch Man, for example, where the main character's problem is that, since he can defeat anyone in one punch, his fights have no stakes. For ANH, you accept that the Empire has a Death Star, since that's what the plot is about, and you expect the heroes to find a way to destroy the Death Star. You also accept that Darth Vader is powerful guy, and he will offer a tough battle to the heroes. Now imagine if the heroes were the one with the giant superweapon and the powerful badass. In that case, you would wonder why were watching a movie where the heroes curb stomp the villains with no effort.

Secondly, there is an explanation in the film: Kylo was trained by Luke. In that case, since Kylo is a villain and part of the stakes of the movie come from wondering how he will be defeated, it takes less of an explanation to justify why he is more powerful, since him being powerful makes the movie more interesting, not less.

Also, not knowing anything about Rey's past (and the fact that the film teases you with it via the flashback) is one of the most annoying things about TFA. I shouldn't have to watch a future movie to justify this one, just like I shouldn't have to read a book to get a proper explanation about the difference between the Republic and the Resistance, and the state of the galaxy in TFA.
 

border

Member
If you can believe that Yoda somehow taught Luke to how to wield a lightsaber in some unseen training sequence, it seems equally reasonable to think that Rey had heard about Jedi Mind Tricks and telekinesis at some point in her life.....or otherwise learned about those abilities when she popped into Ren's mind.
 

Wolfe

Member
He was effortlessly dominating rey until the movie decided rey had to win. Then he suddenly becomes a scared kitten. That was bullshit.

Yeah cause it's not like there was actual context around this encounter that filled in why that fight went the way it did...

Men have had masturbatoey power fantasies for decades. Why the fuck is it so objectionable for little girls and young woman to have a female character to look up to?

Seriously, like I don't see anyone getting up in arms at Fin competently wielding a saber vs Kylo when he was his least worn out (at that point in that particular confrontation, as in he's already fucked up, but his condition only worsens from there).

I get that some people feel like she didn't "earn" her level of force control but it's far from hard to believe. She is shown to be a young strong independant woman who had to fend for herself on a desert junk planet during her youth or growing up years. The movie lays out fairly clearly that he can handle herself in a fight and that she is well aware of "the force" and the empire/rebellion and events/characters from the past.

Are you talking about Anakin, the 10 year old child who builds entire droids, can fix anything mechanical, wins pod races and blows up droid control ships while messing about?

Haha I won't lie that was the first thing I thought of when reading that post, like "oh you mean space jesus anakin that can do anything at 10 years old?"

You mean it's a bad opinion because you THINK it's bad right? And you're not speaking for everyone else right? lol.

No I think he means because you appear to be having trouble articulating your points as to why you hold those views, compared to his lengthy posts attempting to refute them. Seems to happen all the time in these threads, people throw out bullet points without actually explaining why or what that means to them (not saying this last part is directed at you, just in general).

Eh...you lose me there, man.

Staff fighting =/= sword fighting

To me she's clearly shown at times swinging the saber around as if she was holding the center of a staff, the weapon she is used to using. I thought it worked well and made sense once I took notice.
 

JayTapp

Member
You lost me there man. I have never been able to get into this kind of obsessive rewatch mentality. The most I've ever watched a movie is probably six times and I'd have to say Aliens and The Matrix share that tie.

I've been watching the OT one or twice a year since i've been like 6 years old.(my dad hated me for that, that's all I wanted at the video store) I'm 40 now and still doing it.

Force Awakens has been added to the rotation. PT and rogue i've never watched more than once. At the theater it was more than enough.
 
I dont recall Luke being taught how to do the JMT. Maybe its just something you understand when the force gets all up in ya. He saw Ben do it once I suppose. I get that he went through some training and shit but he needed training because he was pretty bitch made at the start. Rey is already badass at her introduction. Luke also didnt know what the force was. Rey has heard all about that shit and prolly fantasized about it all the time. All of Lukes training was also because he didnt believe. Like.. my mom got super Christian spirit faith with not much more than a few words spoken to her. It would take me a whole team of super Christians at a camp working 24/7 for years to instil that kinda faith in me.

She just let it in bro. Luke was basically a force atheist.
 

Wolfe

Member
I dont recall Luke being taught how to do the JMT. Maybe its just something you understand when the force gets all up in ya. He saw Ben do it once I suppose. I get that he went through some training and shit but he needed training because he was pretty bitch made at the start. Rey is already badass at her introduction. Luke also didnt know what the force was. Rey has heard all about that shit and prolly fantasized about it all the time. All of Lukes training was also because he didnt believe. Like.. my mom got super Christian spirit faith with not much more than a few words spoken to her. It would take me a whole team of super Christians at a camp working 24/7 for years to instil that kinda faith in me.

She just let it in bro. Luke was basically a force atheist.

Lol I enjoyed the way you put that.
 

border

Member
I've been watching the OT one or twice a year since i've been like 6 years old.(my dad hated me for that, that's all I wanted at the video store) I'm 40 now and still doing it.

Haha, when I was 7-8 years old I remember my mom said she would let me watch The Terminator because she was so tired of me demanding to rent Return of the Jedi from the video store. I could watch anything I wanted so long as it wasn't Star Wars again. Kinda crazy, considering Terminator has both graphic violence and sex.
 

RedSwirl

Junior Member
The JMT is probably the only part where I have a bit of an issue with Rey's abilities in Force Awakens. It's the only ability of hers that feels like it was explained and came up too quickly. I can buy Rey fighting back against Kylo while being interrogated, but the part afterwards with the stormtrooper felt unearned in my opinion. Where did she learn to do the mind trick by giving commands? If it was in stories she'd heard as a kid there should have been some indication of that earlier in the movie, even if only an extremely subtle one. I don't know, some part laying out slightly more specifically what she'd heard about the Jedi as a kid.

Everything else -- Rey being a pilot, understanding droids and Wookies, even her skill with the lightsaber, is explainable and believable in the context of the movie. The scenes on Jakku make it evident she grew up in a multi-lingual environment where she had opportunities to fly ships and had to defend herself with melee weaponry. I just didn't see anything in the movie establishing her ability to give specific JMT commands to a stormtrooper.

Finn? Melee weapon training among the stormtroopers. That other guy with the energy baton thing pretty much confirms it.

I dont recall Luke being taught how to do the JMT. Maybe its just something you understand when the force gets all up in ya. He saw Ben do it once I suppose. I get that he went through some training and shit but he needed training because he was pretty bitch made at the start. Rey is already badass at her introduction. Luke also didnt know what the force was. Rey has heard all about that shit and prolly fantasized about it all the time. All of Lukes training was also because he didnt believe. Like.. my mom got super Christian spirit faith with not much more than a few words spoken to her. It would take me a whole team of super Christians at a camp working 24/7 for years to instil that kinda faith in me.

She just let it in bro. Luke was basically a force atheist.

Time gaps within and between the movies. There is like a year, or at least several months, between ESB and ROTJ during which Luke probably went back to Dagobah and resumed training under Yoda. He also seems to have spent some significant amount of time on Dagobah during ESB, but it's not made clear how much. It was probably at least days, if not weeks, directly training under the top Jedi master, between Hoth and his fight with Vader on Bespin.
 
FA is the seventh movie in a series that has spawned multiple TV shows aimed at children. It absolutely did not need to explain old shit like the Jedi mind trick again. Yes, I have some gripes about her using it, but not the fact it wasn't explained. Anyone who was too young to see the prequels has grown up with 90% of their summer movie going experiences involving people with super powers. Even if they don't know what a Jedi mind trick is, they get it.

You'd be lost five minutes into the movie when a dude freezes a bullet mid air if you were that unable to follow things. A seventh movie in a saga gets to take shortcuts in the world building departments. That's like THE advantage of a sequel.

Except pretty much all good sequels, if they're going to bring up a plot point from a previous entry later in the movie, re-introduce said plot point in said movie. Early on in ESB, Han mentions to Leia that he still needs to pay off his bounty to Jabba the Hut, which comes into play later on when he is frozen in carbonite at the end of the film. The Two Towers opens on Gandalf's fight with the Balrog from Fellowship, reminding the audience of the fight, and setting up his later return as Gandalf the White. Return of the King re-explains the palantir, even though it was introduced in Fellowship.

You're right, but the movie doesn't need an explanation, it can take shortcuts, but it still should re-introduce those plot elements. The Jabba plotline in Empire didn't need a full explanation where a Greedo-like character takes up a scene to re-explain the plotline; it's accomplished in a single sentence. That is a shortcut. Not bothering to bring it up at all so it can be used later in the plot (to get Rey out of a dangerous predicament) is not taking a shortcut.

Again, I'm not saying it needed a whole scene where the finer details of the JMT were re-explained. A couple seconds or a short sentence or two would have done the job just fine.

I dont recall Luke being taught how to do the JMT. Maybe its just something you understand when the force gets all up in ya. He saw Ben do it once I suppose. I get that he went through some training and shit but he needed training because he was pretty bitch made at the start. Rey is already badass at her introduction. Luke also didnt know what the force was. Rey has heard all about that shit and prolly fantasized about it all the time. All of Lukes training was also because he didnt believe. Like.. my mom got super Christian spirit faith with not much more than a few words spoken to her. It would take me a whole team of super Christians at a camp working 24/7 for years to instil that kinda faith in me.

She just let it in bro. Luke was basically a force atheist.

You know, looking at how Luke and Rey use the Jedi Mind Trick shows just how much better the writing in the OT was, and is also a good argument against the "but Luke did X too" defense for some of the stuff Rey did.

Luke first performed the Jedi Mind Trick in Return of the Jedi, over two years (gap between ANH and ESB) since he first saw the JMT used and after training with two Jedi Masters (Obi Wan for a bit, then Yoda for quite a bit of time, since it was enough time for the Empire to get to Bespin ahead of the Falcon). He also uses it at the start of the movie, when the danger is much lower. During the scene, using it doesn't work. He only succeeds in using it against Jabba's second-in-command; it fails when he tries using it against Jabba. Him using it also gets him into a problem, instead of out of one, as Jabba drops him into the Rancor pit, and defeating the Rancor only gets Jabba angrier and gets him sent out to the Sarlacc pit.

Now let's look at Rey. She uses it a day or two after she first learns "it was real, all of it" and without any introduction or set up. Like was said earlier:

Where did she learn to do the mind trick by giving commands? If it was in stories she'd heard as a kid there should have been some indication of that earlier in the movie, even if only an extremely subtle one. I don't know, some part laying out slightly more specifically what she'd heard about the Jedi as a kid.

Again, you didn't need much. Maybe when Han's telling her all the stories were real, have her ask if there were really people around who could trick others just by saying what they wanted them to believe. When she does use the JMT, it's later on in the movie, when the stakes are much higher, since she's captured on Starkiller Base (If anyone could tell me exactly what point in the movie it happens, I'd be grateful. Something like "at the 1h mark"). While she fails to use the JMT on the first two times, her failure has no consequences for her; she just gets it right on the third time, and it was like she never failed at all. It ends up being the solution to a problem she's facing (her imprisonment by the First Order), where Luke's use of it caused more problems. Luke's use was easier to accept because it wasn't used as "Get Out of Jail Free" card.
 

finowns

Member
I don't like when anyone picks up the force easily, I'm like Obi-Wan had to practice for years just to swing a sword around! But I understand trying to get passed that in a movie would be difficult. I just wish they would give more gravity to force by making it very difficult to learn or explain.
 

Wolfe

Member
I don't like when anyone picks up the force easily, I'm like Obi-Wan had to practice for years just to swing a sword around! But I understand trying to get passed that in a movie would be difficult. I just wish they would give more gravity to force by making it very difficult to learn or explain.

Yeah I didn't care for this aspect of TPM, it's like Anakin was "one with the force" without even knowing the force existed. And then to top it off Yoda's like "this kid too damn old to learn!"... naw Yoda, it's pretty clear the kid is already using that shit :p

I know "chosen one" and all that, I've just never been a huge fan of prophecy tropes.

I will agree it felt kinda out of place that Rey just figured out the jedi mind trick type commands, mighta felt a bit more earned if she had stumbled into how to do it (maybe while interacting with the guard briefly) like with her back and forth with Ren.

That's my biggest force powers gripe for the film though, which admittedly is easy for me to overlook.
 

Xero

Member
Except pretty much all good sequels, if they're going to bring up a plot point from a previous entry later in the movie, re-introduce said plot point in said movie. Early on in ESB, Han mentions to Leia that he still needs to pay off his bounty to Jabba the Hut, which comes into play later on when he is frozen in carbonite at the end of the film. The Two Towers opens on Gandalf's fight with the Balrog from Fellowship, reminding the audience of the fight, and setting up his later return as Gandalf the White. Return of the King re-explains the palantir, even though it was introduced in Fellowship.

You're right, but the movie doesn't need an explanation, it can take shortcuts, but it still should re-introduce those plot elements. The Jabba plotline in Empire didn't need a full explanation where a Greedo-like character takes up a scene to re-explain the plotline; it's accomplished in a single sentence. That is a shortcut. Not bothering to bring it up at all so it can be used later in the plot (to get Rey out of a dangerous predicament) is not taking a shortcut.

Again, I'm not saying it needed a whole scene where the finer details of the JMT were re-explained. A couple seconds or a short sentence or two would have done the job just fine.



You know, looking at how Luke and Rey use the Jedi Mind Trick shows just how much better the writing in the OT was, and is also a good argument against the "but Luke did X too" defense for some of the stuff Rey did.

Luke first performed the Jedi Mind Trick in Return of the Jedi, over two years (gap between ANH and ESB) since he first saw the JMT used and after training with two Jedi Masters (Obi Wan for a bit, then Yoda for quite a bit of time, since it was enough time for the Empire to get to Bespin ahead of the Falcon). He also uses it at the start of the movie, when the danger is much lower. During the scene, using it doesn't work. He only succeeds in using it against Jabba's second-in-command; it fails when he tries using it against Jabba. Him using it also gets him into a problem, instead of out of one, as Jabba drops him into the Rancor pit, and defeating the Rancor only gets Jabba angrier and gets him sent out to the Sarlacc pit.

Now let's look at Rey. She uses it a day or two after she first learns "it was real, all of it" and without any introduction or set up. Like was said earlier:



Again, you didn't need much. Maybe when Han's telling her all the stories were real, have her ask if there were really people around who could trick others just by saying what they wanted them to believe. When she uses it, it's later on in the movie, when the stakes are much higher, since she's captured on Starkiller Base (If anyone could tell me exactly what point in the movie it happens, I'd be grateful. Something like "at the 1h mark"). While she fails to use the JMT on the first two times, her failure has no consequences for her; she just gets it right on the third time, and it was like she never failed at all. It ends up being the solution to a problem she's facing (her imprisonment by the First Order), where Luke's use of it caused more problems. Luke's use was easier to accept because it wasn't used as "Get Out of Jail Free" card.
I'm glad they didn't do this, sine there would be no consequences why bother. The way the movie did it got the point across and kept the movie moving without padding it out. If I can suspend disbelief on how Luke uses his lightsaber as well as he does with not 1 scene showing him training at all with dueling I can suspend disbelief for that. It's star wars if your watching this one the assumption is you've seen the others. It would be insulting to retread obvious information from the original trilogy, and bog the movie down. The difference in your examples is they are from the same trilogy and this is a 7th movie in a long running series we know how the universe works.
 

GhaleonEB

Member
It's not hard to understand, it just feels completely unearned. TFA is flawed.

Rey has more justifications to do what she does in TFA than Luke does in ANH. Primarily by having an active Force user apply it on her directly as demonstration.

Luke is blocking laser blasts with a sword while blind after one pep talk from Ob-Wan. He's a farmer, using a saber for the first time, and he's blocking lasers without looking. That one action is crazier than anything Rey does in TFA and there's far less done to establish his powers or teach him how to do it.

That's just how the Force works in Star Wars. Rey "earns" it at least as much as Luke.
 

finowns

Member
Yeah I didn't care for this aspect of TPM, it's like Anakin was "one with the force" without even knowing the force existed. And then to top it off Yoda's like "this kid too damn old to learn!"... naw Yoda, it's pretty clear the kid is already using that shit :p

I know "chosen one" and all that, I've just never been a huge fan of prophecy tropes.

I will agree it felt kinda out of place that Rey just figured out the jedi mind trick type commands, mighta felt a bit more earned if she had stumbled into how to do it (maybe while interacting with the guard briefly) like with her back and forth with Ren.

That's my biggest force powers gripe for the film though, which admittedly is easy for me to overlook.

Someone said that Rey should have been using force powers when she was working in the desert. This would have given us the idea that she had insight into force for many years. I don't mind a powerful protagonist given it doesn't hurt world building.
 

finowns

Member
Rey has more justifications to do what she does in TFA than Luke does in ANH. Primarily by having an active Force user apply it on her directly as demonstration.

Luke is blocking laser blasts with a sword while blind after one pep talk from Ob-Wan. He's a farmer, using a saber for the first time, and he's blocking lasers without looking. That one action is crazier than anything Rey does in TFA and there's far less done to establish his powers or teach him how to do it.

That's just how the Force works in Star Wars. Rey "earns" it at least as much as Luke.

That doesn't make sense. Luke has a tutor who happens to be a master of the force, that gives a lot of leeway and Lucas didn't go crazy with it. The rest of your post is guess work about the force.
 

border

Member
Except pretty much all good sequels, if they're going to bring up a plot point from a previous entry later in the movie, re-introduce said plot point in said movie. Early on in ESB, Han mentions to Leia that he still needs to pay off his bounty to Jabba the Hut, which comes into play later on when he is frozen in carbonite at the end of the film. The Two Towers opens on Gandalf's fight with the Balrog from Fellowship, reminding the audience of the fight, and setting up his later return as Gandalf the White. Return of the King re-explains the palantir, even though it was introduced in Fellowship.

You're right, but the movie doesn't need an explanation, it can take shortcuts, but it still should re-introduce those plot elements. The Jabba plotline in Empire didn't need a full explanation where a Greedo-like character takes up a scene to re-explain the plotline; it's accomplished in a single sentence. That is a shortcut. Not bothering to bring it up at all so it can be used later in the plot (to get Rey out of a dangerous predicament) is not taking a shortcut.

If the thing you really take issue with could be explained away in a line of dialogue or two, then is it really that big of an issue? Like, is it that hard to just spot the film a little moment like that? Especially in an instance where everybody has probably seen the preceding film anyway.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that there's probably a lot of stuff in The Two Towers and Return of the King that new viewers probably would have not been familiar with. It's important to remind viewers that Gandalf is dead, but something like the Jedi Mind Trick does not really have the same significance as a guiding character's demise. At the beginning of Empire Strikes Back, we don't see Obi-Wan being killed by Vader again.

EDIT: For specifics in Lord of the Rings, I'd point out that Sam and Frodo use one of Galadriel's gifts to stun/hurt/ward off Shelob in The Two Towers. I don't think this is set up or explained at all within the film. Unless you saw Fellowship of the Ring, you'd have no idea what the Phial of Galadriel was or where it came from.
 

Beartruck

Member
Only saw it once... not interested in watching it again because of that emo darth vader wanna be "villain".

I like it. Every dark force user in the OT and TFA has a noticeable physical trait to show the effect of the dark side on them: The emperor is melting, Vader is a pale grub on life support, Snoke's face is half scarred. Kylo Ren is just an angsty punk under the mask, showing he's not on their level yet. At the end though, he gets his face slashed, and now he's going to "complete his training", signaling his transformation fully to the dark side.
 
You know, looking at how Luke and Rey use the Jedi Mind Trick shows just how much better the writing in the OT was, and is also a good argument against the "but Luke did X too" defense for some of the stuff Rey did.

Luke first performed the Jedi Mind Trick in Return of the Jedi, over two years (gap between ANH and ESB) since he first saw the JMT used and after training with two Jedi Masters (Obi Wan for a bit, then Yoda for quite a bit of time, since it was enough time for the Empire to get to Bespin ahead of the Falcon). He also uses it at the start of the movie, when the danger is much lower. During the scene, using it doesn't work. He only succeeds in using it against Jabba's second-in-command; it fails when he tries using it against Jabba. Him using it also gets him into a problem, instead of out of one, as Jabba drops him into the Rancor pit, and defeating the Rancor only gets Jabba angrier and gets him sent out to the Sarlacc pit.

Now let's look at Rey. She uses it a day or two after she first learns "it was real, all of it" and without any introduction or set up. Like was said earlier:



Again, you didn't need much. Maybe when Han's telling her all the stories were real, have her ask if there were really people around who could trick others just by saying what they wanted them to believe. When she does use the JMT, it's later on in the movie, when the stakes are much higher, since she's captured on Starkiller Base (If anyone could tell me exactly what point in the movie it happens, I'd be grateful. Something like "at the 1h mark"). While she fails to use the JMT on the first two times, her failure has no consequences for her; she just gets it right on the third time, and it was like she never failed at all. It ends up being the solution to a problem she's facing (her imprisonment by the First Order), where Luke's use of it caused more problems. Luke's use was easier to accept because it wasn't used as "Get Out of Jail Free" card.
Fair enough. But like Bobby said it was called The Force Awakens. The next movie is called The Last Jedi. Who knows what the deal with Rey really is. Maybe this awakening is a part of the reason why this is all happening with her. Maybe its a big part of the reason why the Jedi has to end. This is the 7th installment of 9 movies across three trilogies. Who actually knows where Rey will be by the end of Ep.9. Personally I am rather glad that they didnt spend 2 and a half movies to build her up to the point that Luke was by the end of the third.

I dont think the writing is anything special and I do accept the criticism being thrown at it as valid enough but I really do think its a tad unfair to look at Luke who was built up over 3 films and compare it to how they have set up Rey after only one. To me, Rey is pretty much what Anakin should have been. Just a force to be reckoned with.

I think after the next film we will have a better idea of why she is as strong as she is with the force. With so many complaints of retreading and stuff that goes on, I'm rather glad that they didnt have her be exactly like Luke and have to stuggle to learn to use the force only to culminate with her actually being at Lukes level in RotJ by the Ep.9. Its like she is where he was at by the end of the OT and it would be cool to see where it goes. Maybe like a Starkiller from Unleashed but no so crazy. It just comes naturally to her and I am willing to see where it goes without leaning too much towards any kind of Mary Sue or lazy writing argument just yet. TFA had to introduce and reintroduce so many characters, I'm not too surprised that none of them were really fleshed out by the end of it.

That said, I do get what you are saying.
 

GhaleonEB

Member
That doesn't make sense. Luke has a tutor who happens to be a master of the force, that gives a lot of leeway and Lucas didn't go crazy with it. The rest of your post is guess work about the force.

You didn't demonstrate how that doesn't make any sense.

Obi-wan explains the basic premise of the Force. The then puts a helmet on Luke and tells him to "stretch out with your feelings".

That's what it took for a farmer to block laser blasts with a sword, which he has never used before, while blind. It's absolutely fucking bonkers and on order of magnitude greater than anything Rey does in TFA. That it's burned into our collective memory might make it harder to recognize, but it is.

Contrast to Rey: she learns the mind trick after Kylo Ren is fucking with mind, directly, just a few scenes before.

She pulls the saber to her after getting frozen and flung by Kylo Ren, and seeing him start to pull the saber to himself. She's picking things up as they are done to her. Actions, not words.

One had some vague words spoke to him about "stretching out your feelings". The other had that shit done to her directly and learned from it.

Rey earns her abilities much more than Luke does. It's one of the things TFA is meticulous to spell out - Kylo is her unwitting teacher. It requires a massive double standard to say Rey doesn't earn her abilities, but Luke does.
 
not interested in watching it again because of that emo darth vader wanna be "villain".

Like, how many years late is "emo" as any sort of legit complaint (if it ever was one)

We're looking at almost 15 years now, right?

15 years.

There are posters here currently who hadn't learned to stop shitting in their pants when that went out of style.

She pulls the saber to her after getting frozen and flung by Kylo Ren, and seeing him start to pull the saber to himself. She's picking things up as they are done to her. Actions, not words. It requires a massive double standard to say Rey doesn't earn her abilities, but Luke does.

This is an interesting point that I'm not sure I've seen in any of these discussions: She sees him reach for it. We don't see her seeing it, of course, because it'd ruin the reveal. But it fits with what the film has been showing us of her journey through that awakening of the Force. She reacts to the Force being... forced upon her, basically.

She probably wouldn't have thought to reach for the saber if she hadn't seen Kylo go for it. She wouldn't have thought to try the mindtrick if Kylo hadn't used a version of it on her. That the saber she reached for is the one she rejected earlier is meaningful. it's why the moment has punch.
 

finowns

Member
You didn't demonstrate how that doesn't make any sense.

Obi-wan explains the basic premise of the Force. The then puts a helmet on Luke and tells him to "stretch out with your feelings".

That's what it took for a farmer to block laser blasts with a sword, which he has never used before, while blind. It's absolutely fucking bonkers and on order of magnitude greater than anything Rey does in TFA. That it's burned into our collective memory might make it harder to recognize, but it is.

Contrast to Rey: she learns the mind trick after Kylo Ren is fucking with mind, directly, just a few scenes before.

She pulls the saber to her after getting frozen and flung by Kylo Ren, and seeing him start to pull the saber to himself. She's picking things up as they are done to her. Actions, not words.

One had some vague words spoke to him about "stretching out your feelings". The other had that shit done to her directly and learned from it.

Rey earns her abilities much more than Luke does. It's one of the things TFA is meticulous to spell out - Kylo is her unwitting teacher. It requires a massive double standard to say Rey doesn't earn her abilities, but Luke does.

Luke spends an unknown amount time training with Obi-Wan on the Falcon. Are you arguing that Obi-Wan isn't a good teacher and his advice isn't useful? That's fine, it sounds like bs but okay. The fact remains Luke has access to someone who is considered a master of the subject he's learning and that allows certain avenues in Luke's force abilities for the first movie.
 

DeathyBoy

Banned
Sorry, the opinion police have already spoken, and we are wrong. Persist in your wrongness, and you'll get insightful responses with such compelling arguments as "Jesus Christ", and "Jesus fucking Christ" repeated for effect. Because reasons.

But it's okay to say "Mary Sue" ten thousand times because she's a female character and they can't be masturbatory power studies because that's not right even tho cinema literally has hundreds of male ones Gaf shrugs off?
 
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