Support NeoGAF

[Diomedeskun]

Do yourself a favor and continue this trend

Seriously, PoR is an awesome game and 80% is absolutely brilliant.

 

[cartman414]

Eh. I thought it felt like Aria with crappy level design, a horrendous art style, some really shitty power-ups (the one where you throw the doll specifically comes to mind; it had absolutely no use outside of letting you through arbitrary holes in walls), and tacked-on touch screen controls.

I only played it once though, back when it came out. Maybe I'd like it better if I played it again.

The design may have not been necessarily as strong, but it was still a far sight better than the backtrackiness of SotN and HoD. And I disagree about the powerup part. I was already beaten to the Puppet Master + Skeleton Ape combo. And they balanced out the more overpowered souls/weapons/etc from AoS. They only erred by making many of the stronger weapons exclusively available through soul fusion.

1. CotM doesn't get the credit it deserves. Besides some janky character animation and palette swapping on the sprites it's actually a very good game. The castle layout and platforming elements are actually stronger than any of the Metroidvanias that followed, and the difficulty is the most balanced of the handheld games. It could also be argued that the DSS system had more depth than the souls of AoS and DoS. I also think this is the last game that felt like a true blue Castlevania, which is more difficult to quantify, but I suppose comes down to theme and structure of individual areas. Wasn't it also the last 2D Castlevania developed by KOEI? With each sequel Iga's hand became increasingly apparent in some of the more redundant aspects of the gameplay.

I actually found the difficulty to be the most awkwardly balanced for a couple reasons. This had a lot to do with the linear stat increases at level up made your character's power progression incredibly inorganic. The DSS system was crippled by the facts that various cards were rare drops, and figuring out what various combos did required either trial and error, or a FAQ. Speaking of which, the random item drop system also had to be among the worst in the past several years. Aside from that, the secrets were always secret rooms containing permanent HP/MP/Heart Max Ups tuckered away behind breakable walls.

Aside from all that though, as a Metroidvania, it had arguably the most transparent lock/key progression scheme of any.

 

[lyre]

It was slow, the jumping felt off, the art was largely garish, and the music was absolutely awful. Basically NES/GB quality at times.

NES/GB quality sound isn't a completely bad thing; the entire MM Battle Network series uses samples that could pass off as 8 bit samples but they're still all wonderful music. Harmony's music just plain sucks save for two tracks (both remixes as well).

That said, it wasn't a terrible CV game by any measure. I do consider it to be the crappiest Metroidvania of the bunch, and probably the crappiest 2D CV, franchise-wide.

While I feel CotM is the better game overall, I'd much rather replay Harmony due to the latter's default walking speed is faster and the ability to beat the game without using any skills; just use the whip and subitems, like classic CV games. Hell, the game even lets you play as 8-bit Simon in boss rush mode, as throwaway as the mode in the game is.

Edit:

I think the very first warp point does that, and there may be another odd one out like that, maybe two. None of them cycle between all warp points to give you full freedom to move around the castle though.

Eventually you can press down, rather than up, to warp to other points within the same castle.

Damn, beaten, ah wells.

 

[Mejilan]

NES/GB quality sound isn't a completely bad thing; the entire MM Battle Network series uses samples that could pass off as 8 bit samples but they're still all wonderful music. Harmony's music just plain sucks save for two tracks (both remixes as well).

There's definitely room for 8-bit chiptunes in the world (and, to be frank, on my iPod). But HoD's music was atrocious from any standpoint. It was a total mess.

 

[Saint Gregory]

Speaking of which, the random item drop system also had to be among the worst in the past several years.

The various items that increased your lck made getting the rare cards almost laughably easy. The only one I remember being a real bitch was the one you get from the Skeleton Sprinter since he was hard as hell to kill in the first place. I'll agree with the card combo observation though. The combo that replenished your health when you stood still would have been really helpfull if I realized what it did earlier.

 

[lyre]

There's definitely room for 8-bit chiptunes in the world (and, to be frank, on my iPod). But HoD's music was atrocious from any standpoint. It was a total mess.

Already agreed with that.

The various items that increased your lck made getting the rare cards almost laughably easy. The on;y one I remember being a real bitch was the one you get from the Skeleton Sprinter since he was hard as hell to kill in the first place. I'll agree with the card combo observation though. The combo that replenished your health when you stood still would have been really helpfull if I realized what it did earlier.

The only complaint I have about the card system is the two best cards (the black and white card I think) can only be found in the colosseum and even then they're rare drops. It goes without saying, I just said 'fuck it' and just abused the DSS glitch.

 

[Saint Gregory]

The only complaint I have about the card system is the two best cards (the black and white card I think) can only be found in the colosseum and even then they're rare drops. It goes without saying, I just said 'fuck it' and just abused the DSS glitch.

Funny you mention that. I figured out the second time I went through the colosseum (not sure if it's mentioned in any of the numerous FAQs out there) that you could reset the monsters in a given room by stepping half-way into the next room without triggering the door. I managed to get both cards that way in one sitting.

Edit: I could be remembering it wrong. It might be that I did read a FAQ and there was a glitch where you could reset the whole colloseum by sliding halfway out then backing back in. Either way it was doable with patience.

 

[Dash Kappei]

I'm so pumped for this game, this is looking like it'll be the best Vania since a loong time!
And I even liked DoS and PoR so more power to Ecclesia!

Do we have a release date set already?

 

[KevinCow]

It was slow, the jumping felt off, the art was largely garish, and the music was absolutely awful. Basically NES/GB quality at times. It felt like a severely stripped down SotN clone, when such was basically impossible on a GBA.

Music aside, I think that sounds more like CotM.

I won't disagree on the music though. It was pretty bad, outside of a couple of tracks.

<<< then explain plz.

Couldn't find the AoS Soma sprite and figured it was good enough.

The design may have not been necessarily as strong, but it was still a far sight better than the backtrackiness of SotN and HoD.

You say backtrackiness like it's a bad thing. I love backtracking.


Anyway, like I said, I'd probably like DoS better if I played it again. But after looking forward to it so much, I was really disappointed in it and it left a bad taste in my mouth. Aria was actually my first Castlevania, and I was excited to get a direct sequel, but the touch screen stuff and the way they destroyed the awesome art style of Aria really ruined it for me.

 

[cartman414]

The various items that increased your lck made getting the rare cards almost laughably easy. The only one I remember being a real bitch was the one you get from the Skeleton Sprinter since he was hard as hell to kill in the first place. I'll agree with the card combo observation though. The combo that replenished your health when you stood still would have been really helpfull if I realized what it did earlier.

What I was referring to was making items such as leather armor dirt common, while making normal potions not as common, or as easy to pick up at least, even though they recover a paltry 20 HP a pop.

You say backtrackiness like it's a bad thing. I love backtracking.

Backtrackiness is a bad thing when you have to run back and forth through long corridors at normal speed in order to make perfunctory progress. Both games were bereft of warp points as well.

 

[Mejilan]

Music aside, I think that sounds more like CotM.

CotM wasn't garish. It was drab. I will admit that walking/running/jumping was pretty idiosyncratic, though. I still preferred CotM's controls over HoD's (minus the multi-directional sliding, which was slick.)

Couldn't find the AoS Soma sprite and figured it was good enough.

Say what you will regarding DoS vs. AoS, you'd be hardpressed to find people that preferred the animation in AoS Soma's sprite over DoS Soma's sprite. Stick with your current avatar, it's quite nice, as far as things go.

Anyway, like I said, I'd probably like DoS better if I played it again. But after looking forward to it so much, I was really disappointed in it and it left a bad taste in my mouth. Aria was actually my first Castlevania, and I was excited to get a direct sequel, but the touch screen stuff and the way they destroyed the awesome art style of Aria really ruined it for me.

Give it a shot, if you can. You might be surprised. I never really understood the anime artstyle complaint. I'll admit that it's a huge step down, but outside of the box art (avoidable) and opening cinematic and cutscenes (all skippable) it's largely irrelevant. The actual gameplay art is the same as always. Better, for being on the DS instead of the GBA.

 

[Saint Gregory]

What I was referring to was making items such as leather armor dirt common, while making normal potions not as common, or as easy to pick up at least, even though they recover a paltry 20 HP a pop.

Yep, I misread the "random item bit", my bad. I don't remember that being an issue but I was more concerned with the rare items than the potions and stuff.

 

[cartman414]

Yep, I misread the "random item bit", my bad. I don't remember that being an issue but I was more concerned with the rare items than the potions and stuff.

The potions were an issue though if you wanted to survive the Colosseum though, especially when playing in Magician mode.

Nathan's slow walking speed shouldn't have happened IMO, dash or no dash. Aisha from Monster World IV, another double-tap dasher, still had a decent regular walking speed, and that was seven years earlier.

 

[Allan Holdsworth]

I've played recently SotN on PSN as well as the two DS games....and while they are enjoyable games, I can't help to think that the Castlevania games are "missing" something that just keeps them from being satisifing...I don't know what it is.

Same here. I bought the Double Pack for GBA, and that was it for Metroidvanias for me. I ended up liking HoD more than AoS. Beat it twice (second time with the ninja), while AoS only once (100% of the map but never bothered to get all souls since they dropped randomly). The series just feels boring next to Metroid.
Super Castlevania IV is great though.

 

[bounchfx]

The series just feels boring next to Metroid.

Funny I feel the opposite. I like metroid yet I always get bored before I get through the games, yet with the castlevania games (or as are known 'metroidvania') I can play them through 1-3 times each in succession without getting tired of them.

 

[GrotesqueBeauty]

I actually found the difficulty to be the most awkwardly balanced for a couple reasons. This had a lot to do with the linear stat increases at level up made your character's power progression incredibly inorganic. The DSS system was crippled by the facts that various cards were rare drops, and figuring out what various combos did required either trial and error, or a FAQ. Speaking of which, the random item drop system also had to be among the worst in the past several years. Aside from that, the secrets were always secret rooms containing permanent HP/MP/Heart Max Ups tuckered away behind breakable walls.

Aside from all that though, as a Metroidvania, it had arguably the most transparent lock/key progression scheme of any.

I find all of the Metroidvania's after SotN to be equally predictable as far as general progression goes. CotM was good about sprinkling obstacles for each power up throughout the castle so that revisiting areas was usually rewarding. And although wall breaking was uniformly the way to uncover secrets they were always placed in that "just so" manner that got my Metroid sense tingling and made them a joy to seek out. Playing through Portrait of Ruin, which makes uncovering hidden areas is a joyless chore, really helps me appreciate the intuitive placement of everything on the CotM map.

Regarding DSS drops, the biggest problem is that you don't have the same sort of comprehensive check list that the later handheld games did. However, I didn't have any real problems experimenting to figure out which cards did what. Once you find a single combination that works for any individual action card the rest typically fall into place easily. I had fun experimenting on my first play though, and after beating it twice on my own I don't have any qualms about referring to a FAQ to fill in the blanks when I replay it to save myself from any undue frustration. As far as gaining experience goes I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. Every time I get to a boss it feels challenging with resorting to being cheap, and the first time through any area is perfectly tuned to keep the player on their toes between save rooms. I really liked the way leveling works, and I don't care for how enemies give less exp after a while in the other Metroidvanias, even as the exp needed between levels goes up exponentially. It gives the player even less incentive to plow through old areas in search of items and secrets.

What I was referring to was making items such as leather armor dirt common, while making normal potions not as common, or as easy to pick up at least, even though they recover a paltry 20 HP a pop.

Now that's just factually wrong. Potions are exceedingly common in CotM, and you can carry up to 99 of them. I typically end up with a huge surplus. By the end of the game it's even easy to harvest potion high (250 HP) if you know the right enemies. I should know, I just replayed it a couple weeks ago.

 

[cartman414]

I find all of the Metroidvania's after SotN to be equally predictable as far as general progression goes. CotM was good about sprinkling obstacles for each power up throughout the castle so that revisiting areas was usually rewarding.

It didn't get much more predictable than finding item x after beating boss y that lets you get into area z. Things felt more organic with later Metroidvanias, where it wasn't purely about getting a certain key item or something.

Regarding DSS drops, the biggest problem is that you don't have the same sort of comprehensive check list that the later handheld games did. However, I didn't have any real problems experimenting to figure out which cards did what. Once you find a single combination that works for any individual action card the rest typically fall into place easily. I had fun experimenting on my first play though, and after beating it twice on my own I don't have any qualms about referring to a FAQ to fill in the blanks when I replay it to save myself from any undue frustration.

That may be the case for a few of the cards which carry a general function (give whip elemental function, etc.), some of the later combos are just arbitrary. And then there's the whole acquisition through enemy drop thing. There's no intuition behind it, as opposed to the soul system, for instance. You either need a FAQ or a really good memory to remember where to get all of the cards.

As far as gaining experience goes I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. Every time I get to a boss it feels challenging with resorting to being cheap, and the first time through any area is perfectly tuned to keep the player on their toes between save rooms. I really liked the way leveling works, and I don't care for how enemies give less exp after a while in the other Metroidvanias, even as the exp needed between levels goes up exponentially. It gives the player even less incentive to plow through old areas in search of items and secrets.

Only SotN and HoD did the experience point scaling. And I was talking about CotM's linear level up stat progression scheme, and how it makes Nathan's damage progression curve totally ridiculous.

Now that's just factually wrong. Potions are exceedingly common in CotM, and you can carry up to 99 of them. I typically end up with a huge surplus. By the end of the game it's even easy to harvest potion high (250 HP) if you know the right enemies. I should know, I just replayed it a couple weeks ago.

From my experience, I never ended up with a whole lot.

 

[bdouble]

Man this is getting deep. All I know is I picked up DoS with my DS a while ago and I love it. 70% done and only distracted because of Space Invaders.

Is my first Metroidvania and really can't wait for this one.

edit: typos and wanted to add after reading a bit more. Def going to pick up PoR. I don't think 2 of these is going to be enough. DS is a time leech right now.

 

[blu]

to all PoR haters here:

you do realise that game has the single deepest, most elaborate battle mechanics in the whole (2D) CV universe, don't you? one can possibly play it like 5 different CVias, and that's before unlocking the bonus modes.

 

[darkvir]

woah, settle down... whats with all the PoR hate? I had alot of fun with that game. I'm sooo looking forward to this new one too. I really like this new artist too.

 

[Ranger X]

I think POR is awesome. The only that did deceive me is the shameless re-use of scenery for the later paintings.
I means, i thought we were doing with the old "ok let's change the color palette and TADAAAAAA, a new level!" sort of things.

 

[GrotesqueBeauty]

I'm looking in vain for the PoR "haters" mentioned in the last few posts. Just because someone finds a game flawed doesn't mean they hate it. With the exception of one post urging someone not to try PoR everyone has articulated what they do and don't like about the game pretty well, listing its strengths along with its shortcomings. Who cares if some of us think it's one of the weaker Metroidvanias? The worst of them is still good, just not necessarily as good as the others in some people's eyes. Besides, I don't think any of them offer a definitive experience, which is why there's so much room for debate depending on what elements of the series draw you in.

 

[bdouble]

double

 

[Extollere]

Do we have a release date set already?

IGN says Oct 21st.

 

[DiddyBop]

once again i will try my hand at a CV game. tried wit the psp game and the two Ds games but i couldnt get into them,my main problem was not knowing where the hell to go. this game looks promising so i am planning on picking it up.

 

[Saint Gregory]

I'm looking in vain for the PoR "haters" mentioned in the last few posts. Just because someone finds a game flawed doesn't mean they hate it. With the exception of one post urging someone not to try PoR everyone has articulated what they do and don't like about the game pretty well, listing its strengths along with its shortcomings. Who cares if some of us think it's one of the weaker Metroidvanias? The worst of them is still good, just not necessarily as good as the others in some people's eyes. Besides, I don't think any of them offer a definitive experience, which is why there's so much room for debate depending on what elements of the series draw you in.

There isn't a lot of PoR hate in this thread but as a whole it's not very well recieved around these parts. I think a lot of that stems from the further use of the idiotic anime art style they switched to once the series hit the DS. OoE seems to be taking things into a more traditional direction art wise but I'd still love to see Ayami Kojima return to the series. What's she up to anyway?

 

[Ike]

Shane on the 1upy said this was the hardest CV game yet. Caaaannooot wait.

 

[lyre]

Shane on the 1upy said this was the hardest CV game yet. Caaaannooot wait.

The DS CV games were always touted as 'difficult', but that is more of a showing of how much guys like Shane suck at the games. I'll take this claim of difficulty with a brick of salt.

 

[sprsk]

The DS CV games were always touted as 'difficult', but that is more of a showing of how much guys like Shane suck at the games. I'll take this claim of difficulty with a brick of salt.

It sounded more like he just couldn't figure out how to get past the bad ending, I doubt it's hard.

 

[Lost Fragment]

Shane on the 1upy said this was the hardest CV game yet. Caaaannooot wait.

Hoping this is true. The harder, the better.

 

[Lee N]

It sounded more like he just couldn't figure out how to get past the bad ending, I doubt it's hard.

He has also stated that he has died a lot in Order of Ecclesia. So it definitely sounds like it is harder.

 

[jax (old)]

I'm playing through Potrait of Ruin *using the magic user mostly this time* and its quite fun! I am super hyped for the new CV now. Cannot wait. DAY ONE.

 

[JLateralus]

Has anyone heard if there will be any pre-order bonuses? I hate pre-ordering but the bonus for PoR was pretty sweet.

 

[Mejilan]

JP only, so far. Haven't heard anything yet about the US. Not looking so likely at this point.

 

[Ike]

JP only, so far.H aven't heard anything yet about the US. Not looking so likely at this point.

Wrong thread?

 

[Mideon]

Where is my Euro date Konami!!!????

 

[Mejilan]

Wrong thread?

No. I've only heard of a preorder bonus in Japan. Nothing for us yet.

 

[Atreides]

Where is my Euro date Konami!!!????

Caslevania: Order of Ecclesia (Konami) - 17.11.2008 - 39,99 Euro

 

[Mideon]

Caslevania: Order of Ecclesia (Konami) - 17.11.2008 - 39,99 Euro

What's the source of this info though?

 

[Atreides]

What's the source of this info though?

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=333086

 

[Anasui Kishibe]

man them juicy bonuses look really good, I might very well pick the Japan version as well, hold the bonus and resell it on Ebay to some ignorant loon for more than the price I paid for it

hell yeah, doing it now

 

[jax (old)]

preordering now and I can't believe this but I'm buying these:

:lol

oh no, belmont + alucard are sold out

 

[NotMSRP]

man them juicy bonuses look really good, I might very well pick the Japan version as well, hold the bonus and resell it on Ebay to some ignorant loon for more than the price I paid for it

hell yeah, doing it now

What preorder bonuses?

 

[sixteen-bit]

What preorder bonuses?

Probably the leather bound notebook

 

[Anasui Kishibe]

What preorder bonuses?

soundtrack

leather jacked notebook

 

[NotMSRP]

Oh, that's just the Konamistyle edition.

 

[The Main Event]

http://ds.ign.com/articles/910/910247p1.html

Vids

 

[Ranger X]

http://ds.ign.com/articles/910/910247p1.html

Vids

OMG @ everything

 

[Anasui Kishibe]

god, can't wait. My DS hasn't experienced some action for too long

 

[The Main Event]

Indeed.

Love The Mountain level music.