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Catalan Independence Referendum(1-O) - The aftermath

Camaway2

Member
This isn't the destruction of nation states, it's their salvation and reclamation from the artificial multi-nation states that emerged in the last few centuries.

We're better off for the destruction of the Yugoslavias, Soviet Unions, Spains and Britains of the world.

And "belong" is a loaded concept. Legitimacy is earned from the ground up, not from the top down. A nation belongs in the state it *wants* to belong to.


Anyhow, I sincerely hope they do declare their independence from the Spanish regime, and that said regime refrains from the brutality we all expect from it.


Indeed. The surest way to prove to a people that they're better off without you is to deny their agency and beat them for daring to question their subservience.

Clearly the Middle Age must have been your favourite time then.

Catalunia wants the cake and eat it. They want to keep the Spanish passports and the privileges it entails, without paying taxes to the Spanish state.

They want to be a whole new independent nation but keep the membership to the EU as if they were Spain.

My 6 year old son has a better grasp of reality that most of the "independists".
 

Izcarielo

Banned
This Catalan revolution need to be crushed by any means necessary.
They are a minority that wants to subdue the other non-separatist catalans, disobeying the law and basically doing what they want. Puigdemont cant be imprisoned soon enough.
 
This Catalan revolution need to be crushed by any means necessary.
They are a minority that wants to subdue the other non-separatist catalans, disobeying the law and basically doing what they want. Puigdemont cant be imprisoned soon enough.

Almost 50% and growing is not a "minority".
 

Ixion090

Member
This Catalan revolution need to be crushed by any means necessary.
They are a minority that wants to subdue the other non-separatist catalans, disobeying the law and basically doing what they want. Puigdemont cant be imprisoned soon enough.
"Crushed"? That is a dangerous word to use. By how strong this statement is, I do hope it's sarcasm.
 

Tiamant

Member
This Catalan revolution need to be crushed by any means necessary.
They are a minority that wants to subdue the other non-separatist catalans, disobeying the law and basically doing what they want. Puigdemont cant be imprisoned soon enough.

I would like to say the belic rethoric I'm seeing these days is something new, but sadly you are not the first person I see sink this low. Enjoy your violence, considering 12-O is close I think you'll have your wish granted.
 

Izcarielo

Banned
Not lethal lol, that obviously wont be needed: just the detention of every major player involved in this. That will be enough. Take out all the autonomy of the region is mostly needed to, at least for now
Honestly, this is just a minority of people in a country wanting to take a part of it away from the rest without thinking the consequences, and oh boy, are they innocent if they think the rest will let them do that
 
But if Spain uses 155 there wouldn’t be independence ergo no independence process?
Why would a Spanish law would matter after a Declaration of Independence? Spain will try to use the article 155 of it's constitution and the Catalonians who pledge to the DoI will refuse to comply.

If the pro-independence want to avoid direct confrontation they could just organize protests and dare Spain for a call of new regional elections to show that they still have public support and that refusing the independence is non-sense.
 
Not lethal lol, that obviously wont be needed: just the detention of every major player involved in this. That will be enough. Take out all the autonomy of the region is mostly needed to, at least for now

Repression to our institutions and our national identity, should surely show us how much Spain loves us and we will want to stay for sure.

It worked the other times!
 

Izcarielo

Banned
Repression to our institutions and our national identity, should surely show us how much Spain loves us and we will want to stay for sure.

It worked the other times!

They dont need to love you as much as they love the rest of the country. You are not special, remember that. Other regions also have their culture and identity and i dont see them being "oppresed"
 

Ixion090

Member
Not lethal lol, that obviously wont be needed: just the detention of every major player involved in this. That will be enough. Take out all the autonomy of the region is mostly needed to, at least for now
Honestly, this is just a minority of people in a country wanting to take a part of it away from the rest without thinking the consequences, and oh boy, are they innocent if they think the rest will let them do that
Imprisoning their leader, effectively making him a martyr in their eyes, and THEN removing their autonomy? Sure, that will calm them down. /s
 

Theonik

Member
This Catalan revolution need to be crushed by any means necessary.
They are a minority that wants to subdue the other non-separatist catalans, disobeying the law and basically doing what they want. Puigdemont cant be imprisoned soon enough.
OiI0zD8.png
.
 

Izcarielo

Banned
Imprisoning their leader, effectively making him a martyr in their eyes, and THEN removing their autonomy? Sure, that will calm them down. /s

Dude, what else should the answer be if they are disobeying the law and wont start talks with the central goverment? They already showed they lack the responsibility to maintain their autonomy after this shitshow
Anyway, at the end of the day people will need to pay the bills and will need to keep on with their lives lol
 

Tiamant

Member
Not lethal lol, that obviously wont be needed: just the detention of every major player involved in this. That will be enough. Take out all the autonomy of the region is mostly needed to, at least for now
Honestly, this is just a minority of people in a country wanting to take a part of it away from the rest without thinking the consequences, and oh boy, are they innocent if they think the rest will let them do that

Thid has already happened plenty of times in history and has only served to fuel independentist desires. Either you lack knowledge of what is going here or you don't care about repeating the same mistakes.

And again, it's not a minority and this is not up to opinion, there are numbers backing it.
 
They dont need to love you as much as they love the rest of the country. You are not special, remember that. Other regions also have their culture and identity and i dont see them being "oppresed"

So if they don't appreciate Catalonia, why don't let them go? If they want us to stay, why not be sure we are happy?
 

Izcarielo

Banned
So if they don't appreciate Catalonia, why don't let them go? If they want us to stay, why not be sure we are happy?

The country invested money that comes from every other spaniard into that region, thats why.
Also, you already have every possible autonomy you need, more than other regions
 

Ixion090

Member
Dude, what else should the answer be if they are disobeying the law and wont start talks with the central goverment?
Anyway, at the end of the day people will need to pay the bills and will need to keep on with their lives lol
So, according to your reasoning, the independentists are a minority. Assuming that is true, what you are saying is that the majority should lose their autonomy because of the action of a supposed minority. Do you consider that fair?
 

Izcarielo

Banned
So, according to your reasoning, the independentists are a minority. Assuming that is true, what you are saying is that the majority should lose their autonomy because of the action of a supposed minority. Do you consider that fair?

This situation wasnt fair from the same moment it started.
Uk already devoluted Northen Ireland before anyway so this is nothing crazy
 

Izcarielo

Banned
And Catalonia also invested it's money into other regions, more than they recieve.

Even so. Why not make sure we return the money if that's the problem, and let us go?

Because the territory doesnt belong to you exclusively; it belongs to every spaniard as much as madrid or seville belongs to you
Its pointless to discuss this considering there is no peaceful way for you to secede from your country
The only positive thing you can earn from all this is better agreements with spain akin to the basque country, and you should be happy enough with that
Btw, Cataluna is deeply in debt with the central government (-50.000.000 €). Rating of the region is also junk bond.
 
I don't get the imagined process here. So if they declare independence, you expect things to continue as normal if Spain just ignores it because existing laws apply? So the Catalonian government would tell their people to just continue paying their taxes and act like nothing changed?

I really don't get how they expect this all to work and it seems there is no plan at all for anything at the moment.

Bingo. The real issue is that a relatively small party supporting the government (CUP) is way more radical than the Catalan government itself. Also, after Sunday, I suspect many citizens in Catalonia want a declaration of independence because they likely do not grasp that declaring independence does not mean you can exercise it, never mind that no one will recognize it. That is likely why the president is holding out on declaring anything. The problem is he is backed into a corner now. Not declaring it means he might get fire from citizens and other MPs, whereas a declaration on the basis of the bogus referendum will likely cancel out any simpathy won after the police crackdown on Sunday. Clearly they are not ready for independence and declaring it would just escalate the conflict.

*shrug*
you can pretend otherwise, but then you're entering brexiter level delusions.

This is already way above Brexit. A friend of mine thinks that not letting them declare independence is undemocratic.
 
Because the territory doesnt belong to you exclusively; it belongs to every spaniard as much as madrid or seville belongs to you
Its pointless to discuss this considering there is no peaceful way for you to secede from your country
The only positive thing you can earn from all this is better agreements with spain akin to the basque country, and you should be happy enough with that

So is a matter of "you belong to Spain",finally we reached the root of the problem.
 

Izcarielo

Banned
So is a matter of "you belong to Spain",finally we reached the root of the problem.

yep, exactly like every other region of spain.
you always have the armed way of fighting for freedom, but i would advise against that.
no other country would recognise an independent catalonia even if they did it peacefully without the consent of spain
 

Ixion090

Member
yep, exactly like every other region of spain.
you always have the armed way of fighting for freedom, but i would advise against that.
no other country would recognise an independent catalonia even if they did it peacefully without the consent of spain
Again, "belong" to Spain is a strong word. I guess that way of thinking is what prevents Spain from having a truly federal state as a solution.
 

Izcarielo

Banned
Again, "belong" to Spain is a strong word. I guess that way of thinking is what prevents Spain from having a truly federal state as a solution.

Alright, so then lets change the constitution.
You just need to find support from the rest; thats democracy in a nutshell. You cant just unilaterally decide to leave.
 
In Africa a lot country lines where decided by Colonial powers with total disregard of how the people living there identified themselves. You would think "well, now that they are not colonies they will agree to change the borders, no?", that didn't happen because almost nobody wanted to lose territory even if they hated who lived there. It is also the best example of the international community never supporting self-determination for regions.
 

Talas

Member
The worst racism I've ever experience in my life as a Mexican was in Barcelona, so I want them to secede just to enjoy the feeling of schadenfreude.
 

Dragner

Member
The worst racism I've ever experience in my life as a Mexican was in Barcelona, so I want them to secede just to enjoy the feeling of schadenfreude.

Dont worry as a mexican you will find racism anywere you go in spain. Spain is racist in general, more against south/center americans.
 

badflame

Banned
Spain as racist as USA, UK, Germany or any country around the world.

On the other hand, the Catalans are NOT independentists. Of 5,500,000 of Catalans with voting rights, they have voted "YES" 2,000,000. And a lot of these, simply, are jaded of the PP and his corruption, and not are true independentists.

If the central government of Spain changes hands, the Catalan independence will be drastically reduced.
 

Talas

Member
Dont worry as a mexican you will find racism anywere you go in spain. Spain is racist in general, more against south/center americans.
Oh yeah, Madrid was only a little better, but at least I didn't get beat up on the street like in the other place...
 

Raging Spaniard

If they are Dutch, upright and breathing they are more racist than your favorite player
Facebook post from a HS friend of mine (also a Spaniard), I think she makes a lot of good points and warrants sharing it:

To all my friends abroad, after reading the texts, pictures and videos that some of you are sharing and commenting today, I kindly ask you to please get the facts straight and read the whole story before getting publicly outraged about the so-called disproportionate violence from the Spanish Police, against the so-called peaceful voters; and most importantly, before getting moved and touched and sympathize with an apparently democratic, liberal, beautiful and idealistic movement as the secession of Catalonia can look like at first sight. The reality is far from that.

The illegality of the vote is irrelevant and the infinite irregularities surrounding it are irrelevant as well. All foreign media have informed abundantly about how the vote had been declared illegal by the Constitutional Court, about how it was approved in the Catalan House of Representatives without regard to any of its own laws, bypassing all possible statutes and not observing any legal procedures or guarantees. We have all seen that not even half the polls were duly monitored, how countless people voted in multiple stations, how the census included minors and deceased and how ballot boxes were placed in the streets for anybody to vote without control.

We all know that already. Yet it is not important nor the point. A lot of things that are legal are immoral, and vice-versa. History does not judge events by its legality but by its legitimacy. Laws change every day, and what is illegal today can be legalized tomorrow. Even if all those irregularities had not happened, and even if all regulations had been observed, the situation would not be altered.
What matters here is not whether the vote yesterday was legal or not; what matters is that it was illegitimate, because it tried to grant a few the right to decide over what belongs to all. Catalonia is NOT the exclusive property of the people who were born in Catalonia, or of the people who live in Catalonia, or of the people who call themselves Catalans.

Catalonia belongs to all Spaniards. Catalonia is the heritage and patrimony of us all; and it is so, not just because our young Constitution declares it explicitly, but because we have all worked for Catalonia, fought for Catalonia, contributed, committed, and served to Catalonia. Catalonia has been part of Spain for more than 500 years, never ever having been an independent State (unlike Scotland, FYI), and has been part of the Spanish Nation for more than 1.000 years. And it has been so because our ancestors, our fathers and our grandfathers have fought for it. Because they worked together to build it, because they shed their sweat and blood, fought in countless wars and died for it.

The bridges, roads, dams, ports and cities of Catalonia were not built by Catalans only, but by all the people in Spain. The wars that freed Spain and Catalonia of foreign enemies were not fought by Catalans only, but by all Spaniards. The Reconquista that defeated and expelled the Islamic invaders from Spain and Catalonia was not fought by Catalans only, but by all Spaniards. So was the liberal revolution that brought a modern State and Constitution, or the peaceful transition from a dictatorship to the current democracy. We did all that together. Catalonia is part of the United Nations, of NATO, of the European Union and of the Euro Zone because it was part of Spain when we joined these Institutions, and we achieved so with the effort of all the Spanish people. Catalan banks have been rescued with Spanish money. Catalan pensions, education and health care are paid by us all.

We all paid the Barcelona 1992 Olympics or the high speed train to Barcelona. We have all together built what Catalonia is today. And we did so because we are a Nation. Because we have a history together and we together have a project for the future.

That entitles us all, ALL Spaniards, to enjoy Catalonia and to decide over it. Today I have the right to go freely to Barcelona. Why are a few entitled to deprive us all of that right? I can go to work in Catalonia if I wish, to live there or to peacefully retire if I want. Who are these few and with what right they can prevent us all from that? On what grounds?
Again, Catalonia has never been an independent State and has never decided to freely join Spain. It has always been part of Spain. The same goes the other way round. Today, citizens of Catalonia can move around Spain as they wish, and enjoy a world of rights for being Spanish citizens. They can establish themselves wherever they want. They can work, go to school, to university, to hospitals, to a football match, to cathedrals or museums. Who are these few to take those rights away from all of them? They have always had and always will have those rights, because they have earned it as Spaniards, by contributing to this country and Nation for generations and centuries.

We have done great things together and we wish to do more. If a few do not feel Spanish, they are free to go wherever they want. This is a free country and they can go at any time and moment. But they cannot steal us a part of Spain that rightfully belongs to us all. A part of our land, a part of our history, a part of our sentiment, a part of us. I refuse to accept that a few can take what is ours by right, and has ALWAYS, ALWAYS been.

Please do not get fooled by the black or white childish argument that ”to vote is always right". To vote is NOT always right, regardless of whether legal or not, the same way that voting on torturing, beheading and killing every tall or short or blonde or bald person would not be right.

The vote in Catalonia yesterday was not only illegal, it was above all illegitimate and immoral, because it was sheer robbery. And that is all that matters. Plain and simple.
Cheers to all!
 
Welcome to the desert of the real. Violence is part of any society right now, unless you life in a dream world. It's fantastic, that we don't need much of it anymore and we don't see it much in the open (at least for us lucky ones), but it's still a part of law enforcement and protecting boarders of society. It's naive to think otherwise ...

In it's brutality, the action of the Spanish police was nigh unprecedented in an EU country. And you just deflect with some inevitability nonsense. All cynicism is not healthy, and yours is looking more like cover for anti Catalan sentiments.
 

Izcarielo

Banned
In it's brutality, the action of the Spanish police was nigh unprecedented in an EU country. And you just deflect with some inevitability nonsense. All cynicism is not healthy, and yours is looking more like cover for anti Catalan sentiments.

lol what? the own Mossos have been brutal plenty of times against catalan people also
 
Facebook post from a HS friend of mine (also a Spaniard), I think she makes a lot of good points and warrants sharing it:

She could have made those points without downplaying the Spanish violence and the overwhelming Catalonian support for a referendum. Which is the most important factor for determining the legitimacy of this referendum. Along with the unwillingness of the Spanish government to cooperate in finding a constructive solution for this problem.

But I disagree with her premise that Catalonia belongs to all Spaniards. Her assumption that Catalonia has no right to self-determination because it is allegedly indebted to Spain is incorrect in my opinion. That has always been a mutual relationship of give and take, not one of a parasitic nature as she implies. Catalonia belongs to the people who live and vote there and nobody else.

Catalonia belongs to all Spaniards. Catalonia is the heritage and patrimony of us all; and it is so, not just because our young Constitution declares it explicitly, but because we have all worked for Catalonia, fought for Catalonia, contributed, committed, and served to Catalonia. Catalonia has been part of Spain for more than 500 years, never ever having been an independent State (unlike Scotland, FYI), and has been part of the Spanish Nation for more than 1.000 years. And it has been so because our ancestors, our fathers and our grandfathers have fought for it. Because they worked together to build it, because they shed their sweat and blood, fought in countless wars and died for it.

And Spain as a nation is only 300 years old. 500 years old if you count starting from the decentralized union between Aragon and Castile but those were still two separate entities then. No idea where the 'more than 1.000' years comes from.

Your friend seems unwilling to recognize that Catalonia has always retained its own cultural and socio-economical identity, even after the unification with Castile, the civil war and the regime of Franco. The lengthy shared history with Spain does not change those facts. Now they want to translate that to the political level and Spain is simply not interested in that.
 

vonStirlitz

Unconfirmed Member
This Catalan revolution need to be crushed by any means necessary.
They are a minority that wants to subdue the other non-separatist catalans, disobeying the law and basically doing what they want. Puigdemont cant be imprisoned soon enough.
The dark side runs strong in this one
 
lol what? the own Mossos have been brutal plenty of times against catalan people also

I can't think of an incident where police injured 800 peaceful protesters (or more specifically, people engaging in peaceful civil disobedience) . Feel free to dig out one.
 

Izcarielo

Banned
I can't think of an incident where police injured 800 peaceful protesters (or more specifically, people engaging in peaceful civil disobedience) . Feel free to dig out one.

Im laughing at "800 injured people". I would love to see what did they consider injured...

Im sure that the Mossos cleared Plaza Catalunya during the 15M peacefully :D
 

Business

Member
Facebook post from a HS friend of mine (also a Spaniard), I think she makes a lot of good points and warrants sharing it:

Catalonia belongs to all Spaniards. Catalonia is the heritage and patrimony of us all; and it is so, not just because our young Constitution declares it explicitly, but because we have all worked for Catalonia, fought for Catalonia, contributed, committed, and served to Catalonia. Catalonia has been part of Spain for more than 500 years, never ever having been an independent State (unlike Scotland, FYI), and has been part of the Spanish Nation for more than 1.000 years. And it has been so because our ancestors, our fathers and our grandfathers have fought for it. Because they worked together to build it, because they shed their sweat and blood, fought in countless wars and died for it.

KAJD_f-maxage-0_s-200x150.gif


Belongs to Spaniards, they fought for Catalonia, Spanish nation is 1000 years old.... What's happening I thought we were the brainwashed ones .
 
For me the biggest issues regarding the injuries are that one person lost an eye because a ball shot by the police when they are supposed to be forbidden to use that weapon and that the public prosecutors refuse to investigate anything regarding police brutality.

Said that, 800 is not the number of people injured by the police and nobody claims that, one of them ended in a hospital due to a heart attack for example. The actual number of people who have denounced being attacked by the police is around 120 if I remember correctly. Which is still an unaceptable number.
 
Becoming a independent state never reached over 50% in the government own polls and suddenly we are talking about a Soviet like 90% in a law breaking referendum which was questionable itself.
90% sure sounds amazing for Puigdemont, can he now like his populist friends act like he is only following the will of the people while crushing any opposite voices.
 
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