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[NHarmonic.]

Still holding on to that silly hope that this isn't actually happening, silly me though.

 

[ASilentProtagonist]

E3 is going to be nuts.

 

[KORNdoggy]

I have a PS4. I'll have the same games as PS4K. I'm covered there.

Also, that's why I said most likely lmfao. I got burned on the 3DS getting that shit at launch. If it is 400, I may just wait and see how it does.

I rather spend 400 getting a new system with franchises I like whilst having access to PS4 games. The value is better to me.

Seems the better option.

Tbh i feel like this console is entirely for those whiny guys on forums who complain when a game drops 2 frames or that the PS4 version isn't 1080p and locked at 60fps. Its like sony made an entire console just to shut those people up. Lol.

 

[Lunar15]

The whole situation is just plain weird. Extremely regretting my purchase though.

 

[GHG]

"Most developers"?

This is going to look pretty stupid if Sony have a developer interview reel like they did when they announced the ps4 hardware.

I highly doubt they would push forward with this unless the major publishers were on board.

 

[SolidSnakex]

Why not try it and see how the market reacts? We've had the same 5~7 year console cycles for a while now with no shakeups. If it totally fails, we'll just go back to that... I guess?

Sony claims they're listening to gamers and developers. How much more vocal can both be in regards to this thing? We haven't heard of any developers that are excited about this. Every report is that of negativity. And it seems like the same goes for the views from gamers. Yes, obviously some are excited about it, but the general consensus seems to be negative. Sometimes you don't need to try something to know it's a bad idea.

 

[Taker34]

I love Colin. Having said, he's vastly, vastly overreacting to this.

Agreed. Especially for someone who will support that practice by purchasing the console. At one point I thought he will end the podcast like this:
http://youtu.be/sa0rpCgVLs4

 

[Alucrid]

And unfortunately no matter how many devs or people experienced with coding say this, there will continue to be people on this and other sites who "disagree" despite not knowing what they are talking about. This behavior is unreal.

These PC comparisons are pointless. Getting the game to run on the new system is not the issue. Giving both versions the same attention and care is potentially a big one however.

PC games accommodate a wide variety of hardware configurations, and they also tend to not be as optimized for almost any of them as a console game is for it's set of specs. Coding for consoles can very often require a very different strategy than coding for PC and there were plenty of devs that spoke about this when they first started embracing consoles last gen.

The point isn't that it's super difficult. The point is that it does require significantly more time and resources if you want both versions to be as polished as they can be. And in an industry where games cost insane amounts of both of these things as it is, it should be very easily understood why developers would have an issue with this. If you don't get this then you probably don't want to.

This would probably not be as big a deal to them if they were getting any benefit from it, but I would imagine most devs don't see the benefits outweighing the cons for them.

again, where are all these people saying this? and no, i'm not taking colin's tweet as gospel. are you a dev? i mean, i've seen this so far

People seem really paranoid about this. They shouldn't be.

Cross-posting myself:

 

[SerTapTap]

I feel i'm missing something very fundamental here - don't many developers have to account for the myriad of PC variations/console versions already? Don't they have different graphical settings already depending on which to optimize for? Like, I understand this is more work, but isn't developing for the PC audience like exponentially more difficult compared to having just two Playstation models to code for?

PC developers don't have to go through a full certification process for each config (or basically at all).

PC launches are regularly a trainwreck of bugs

It's generally ignored by devs if certain settings make the game run like shit as long as the game is playable in general

PC players expect a lot more bullshit than console gamers (even if they shouldn't really have to)

There's not the same scrutiny over "Batman with AA at 2x vs AA at 4x on PC" as there would be over "PS4K vs PS4", which will absolutely be a thing.

A lot of times a different studio entirely handles a PC port too. Basically PC ports ain't easy, PC ports very often suck, and two console versions is still different from two PC configs.

 

[Ray Down]

E3 is going to be nuts.

Shit gonna be so entertaining to watch.

 

[jmdajr]

Arrogant Sony is back! Didn't take long.

Hey devs...just deal with it.

 

[CosmicQueso]

He spoke to a "trusted source" that apparently has communication with most or all other developers.

But who is this mystic that communicates with MOST other developers, and has done so over the past few days or weeks?

 

[Clockwork5]

Seems the better option.

Tbh i feel like this console is entirely for those whiny guys on forums who complain when a game drops 2 frames or that the PS4 version isn't 1080p and locked at 60fps. Its like sony made an entire console just to shut those people up. Lol.

It's like Sony made a console that runs games better. Lol.

 

[NullPointer]

Why is it bad for consumers? It's not like anybody is forcing people to buy it.

These threads aren't as large as they are from everybody high-fiving each other in agreement.

 

[Scrotum Phillips]

Add to that two versions of PS4, X1 maybe X1.5 and NX. Can you see now what could be an issue? Somewhere something or somebody will suffer in this process.

The difficulties of having 2 Playstations/2 Xbox's to develop for seems paltry compared to the vast variety of PC configurations that existz. Yet, we still have developers thinking it's worth their time and money to develop for the wide swath of PC's out there that are supported.

 

[Audioboxer]

My point is I don't want to have an inferior machine, that's not why I game on consoles.

The status quo is everyone experiences PS4 standard till PS5. That won't change for you. So your frustration is that others may be able to benefit from some more FPS or graphical tweaks, right? That's rather one sided to say artificially holding everyone back to keep you happy should be the way it is.

Now I get your angst, but the original PS4 isn't being downclocked or nerfed, it will function how it is now and has been till the PS5 is out. People will get the opportunity to try out a mid-cycle refresh, and if it is adopted well, then it may be a new standard is adopted you don't like. I guess at this potential point it's time to decide to stick with consoles or not... But your alternative is the PC, which has almost monthly iterating. 3~4 years is still a lot longer...

Sony claims they're listening to gamers and developers. How much more vocal can both be in regards to this thing? We haven't heard of any developers that are excited about this. Every report is that of negativity. And it seems like the same goes for the views from gamers. Yes, obviously some are excited about it, but the general consensus seems to be negative. Sometimes you don't need to try something to know it's a bad idea.

But words on messageboards, especially based on rumours before an official announcement has even been made with the actual specs and plans, do not necessarily correlate to actual market results. Hence why putting it on a shelf may well be the best way to see if it works.

 

[Maniel]

My only hope is that devs don't neglect optimization of games on the original ps4 down the line because I have no interest in upgrading.

 

[DeepEnigma]

... or maybe they asked and found there was enough interest from them in continuing this route and Colin is trying to spin his own opinion into something more?

He has been against it, every time it was brought up. Greg on the other hand, was for it. Red vs. Blue, like politics, Colin loves politics... the plot thickens.

 

[RedAssedApe]

Love him too. Huge fan. Sadly though...I agree with you here. I think it's an overreaction, not just by him, but by many.

I'm pretty sure when the topic of an expandable Xbox 1.5 came up on the Gamecast, he even said he thought it was a good idea.

I'd be curious to hear him discuss why he feels hardware expansion through expandable options would be ok, but releasing an updated console isn't.

Could just be about the optics of it all. Perhaps PS4 owners wouldn't feel so shafted if they could buy a $50 "expansion pak" rather than having to sell their main console to buy an updated version?

Me personally though, I'm excited about it. Hope they follow through and don't let the backlash prevent them from releasing it.

i think there is a slight difference when you're the market leader. xbox still hasn't shaken off the stigma that people think that it is significantly inferior hardware to ps4. people still quoting the difference in gpu strength (when the difference we've actually seen has mostly been a minor a bump in resolution or needing to implement some dynamic resolution in third party titles).

 

[Night Angel]

My point is I don't want to have an inferior machine, that's not why I game on consoles.

But if you game on consoles, you always have an inferior machine. Nothing has changed.

 

[tuxfool]

From a developer perspective it's a fraction of the price with only some of the benefits. Same architecture, same tools, one software SKU shared across two consoles. The most obvious extra cost is qualification, and time will tell whether it literally means doubling QA staff to test everything twice or if developers can find ways to mitigate that effort.

Smoothing out the generation shifts is in everybody's interests. Time will tell if this works out well or not.

This is what I suspect the crux of the argument is.

 

[yuraya]

Very arrogant of Sony to force devs to release 2 versions of the same game. Devs should have the final say in what they do. If they don't want to develop a Neo version then they shouldn't have to. If they don't want to develop a Vanilla version then they shouldn't have to. Sony needs to be making life easier for developers not harder. And this isn't just about regular AAA devs, its is also about indie devs. People in the industry have the right to be upset right now. Sony needs to ease off these restrictions. This is all assuming these rumors are true ofc.

 

[Hockeymac18]

I posted this in a previous thread about dev's opinions on iterative consoles (this thread) - I'll just add these comments here (interspersed with a couple of my comments for context) from a discussion I had in the Phil Spencer iterative consoles thread with sneakerSO, who I believe is a developer and had good points about developing for iterative consoles (more general comments, not really specific to PS4K):

Unless the APU on each console is the same as the last, it doesn't add a little more work; it would be a LOT more work. And it sub-divides their ecosystem into several smaller markets, while increasing the cost on developers. It would be costing more money to sell to the same pool of users. There are a lot of other issues with this approach as well, particularly for the hardware vendor themselves.

Just because MS is releasing the systems, doesn't mean the APU configuration of the machine would be the same between each console. Are you telling me each console will have an AMD CPU & GPU, with eSRAM & DDR3 as its memory configuration, not to mention with the same bus configuration? Cause if any one of those components changes, the devs are going to need to make that console's own code path in order to support the machine natively.

Things would have to become more PC-like, yes. But instead of supporting x number of configs, you just support 3 set configs.

Like I said, it'd be more work for devs, I recognize that. Perhaps the dev tools could be streamlined enough where much of that work is taken care of for the devs. This is a big question, and obviously MS would have to have solutions for devs if they did go this route.

Supporting two platforms is already a daunting, expensive, time consuming task. You think a 3rd console would be anywhere near that insignificant or ever have dev tools that were that streamlined? Devs are right now trying to focus on streamlining our development process to get more & more games in a higher state of polish out the door in the next few years; not less. Not to mention, all another MS console would do was increase the cost & work on our end, while providing the same ecosystem for us to sell to - Xbox users will still be Xbox users. This doesn't grow their marketshare. I'm still selling to the same pool of users, only now I have to increase my budget & dev time to do so on two different platforms. Trust me, most publishers will just pick one platform per ecosystem & support the one that can make them the highest ROI.

It would never be a set of dev tools where it takes care of the conversion process for us. Each of our code bases can potentially be radically different, and we usually write our code bases to specialize in the machine its running on, meaning the more adept with a console we become, the more unique to those respective platforms each build's code base is.

So how does it work on the PC? You're not coding for every single conceivable config out there... Or am I missing something.

No, you don't, hence the problems many PC releases see. At best, you code for specific manufacturers, and hope that most of their more recent and older processors can handle some of the features you've incorporated into your renderer & your memory mangament system. At best, you'll work with manufacturers (like Nvidia) to have a day 1 driver issued on the day of your game's launch. But it's hard to predict what issues will arrive in certain configurations, whether its the manufacturer of the RAM, the motherboard that all the components are housed onto, or some other unforeseen issue that do arise.

On console, its far more predictable, but there are many conceits that are made on the hardware side on a console that we don't necessarily deal with on PC, at least not in the same way. So at the very least, you have a new development pipeline you will have to build and support, which means a brand new version of the game that needs to be fully tested to ensure solid QA. That means there will be unique issues that platform sees that none of the others do.

Add to all of that the shared consumers that the Xbox ecosystem would have, and most publishers will most likely just pick the one that is closest to its rival ecosystem in terms of specs & install base, and just stick to supporting that one.

It sounds like the biggest downsides to iterative consoles from a dev's perspective might be either an increase in work (if devs want to optimize for all consoles), or an increase in unoptimized games (i.e. what you see on PCs).

I also think some people get developers and publishers mixed up often - that is, I think there might be cases where a publisher is super excited for new hardware so they can push their games - but a developer who's actually coding the game might be groaning about the extra headaches/time/costs to get that game working on the two iterative consoles (OG PS4 and PS4K).

p.s. I'm in favor of iterative consoles - but optimization is a good point regarding where consoles go in the future.

 

[Backfoggen]

I have to say I think the forced Neo version is a bad move, especially in the beginning. It should be optional.

 

[Chase17]

I wonder if the leaks will accelerate their announcement of the console or if they will just hold off until E3 still.

 

[LowParry]

So this one guy that knows all the devs says this is bad. Okay.

 

[StrongBlackVine]

I don't wanna buy a new Playstation just to play the same exact games, with that money I can just get a new console like the NX or w/e. I'm still hoping the Neo is just a false rumour.

It's not a rumor. The denial stage should be over now.

 

[SerTapTap]

again, where are all these people saying this? and no, i'm not taking colin's tweet as gospel. are you a dev? i mean, i've seen this so far

I mean. Consumers are obviously concerned. We're just going to ignore developers too? Is there no amount of "this is a bad idea" that's valid? There's plenty of evidence in the industry that working on multiple platforms is a strain. Bad ports, high costs, certain systems eagerly being dropped.

So this one guy that knows all the devs says this is bad. Okay.

He's a journalist. The PS4k info is also from journalists.

 

[Interfectum]

But who is this mystic that communicates with MOST other developers, and has done so over the past few days or weeks?

I don't know but this mystic seems to be legit. I'm of the opinion Sony should just trash the whole concept based on Moriarty's tweet.

Better luck next time Kaaaz!

 

[AlucardGV]

... or maybe they asked and found there was enough interest from them in continuing this route and Colin is trying to spin his own opinion into something more?

maybe. i'm not taking this colin as the next messiah but for now we have the bioware boss telling it would be a huge pain in the ass

 

[OSHAN]

I wouldn't be so sour about this if I didn't just buy a new PS4 in November.

 

[CosmicQueso]

I don't know but this mystic seems to be legit. I'm of the opinion Sony should just trash the whole concept based on Moriarty's tweet.

Better luck next time Kaaaz!

Woohoo! Problems solved! Well done, Vader!

 

[Quotient]

Who are these developers they are talking to? Heads of studios or joe junior programmer?

Also how is this any different to PC were you have to target different configurations anyway, i can imagine QA costs will rise but i wouldn't have expected this to be a substantial increase in work.

 

[StrongBlackVine]

My point is I don't want to have an inferior machine, that's not why I game on consoles.

Your console is already inferior to PC.

 

[Alucrid]

I mean. Consumers are obviously concerned. We're just going to ignore developers too? Is there no amount of "this is a bad idea" that's valid? There's plenty of evidence in the industry that working on multiple platforms is a strain. Bad ports, high costs, certain systems eagerly being dropped.



He's a journalist. The PS4k info is also from journalists.

those two people quoted are developers

 

[SolidSnakeUS]

Not surprising, but if it can be made like a PC game, but in this case, have the game settings/graphics work like a rocker switch. Choose which you would want to run as by only changing the settings. I know it comes to more optimization, which can take time, but it also means less compromise in the design and graphics. So it's kind of a weird trade off.

 

[KRaZyAmmo]

E3 is either gonna be a volcano blowing up with anger of the PS4K Neo or it'll either be shrugged off if NX makes a big impact.

 

[Joni]

No, they didn't

If I recall correctly, that person hadn't worked at Bioware since 2012?

No, BioWare has not done so.

Greg Zeschuk (who made those comments) retired from Bioware years ago.

Thanks for the correction. Still, the founder of BioWare has a clear enough connection to the studio to make it clear which thread I was referring to.

The status quo is everyone experiences PS4 standard till PS5. That won't change for you. So your frustration is that others may be able to benefit from some more FPS or graphical tweaks, right? That's rather one sided to say artificially holding everyone back to keep you happy should be the way it is.

Outside of the impact this will have on the timeline for the development of the PlayStation 4 games, the willingness of Sony developers to optimize for the old PS4 and the likes. Would Santa Monica have tried to make something as advanced as GoW2 for the PS2 when they had a PS2.5?

 

[Movalpolos]

I'm curious to see the interviews after the thing unveils.

It's possible tons of developers are upset, but Colin citing one person speaking for an industry without any additional details isn't convincing me this is the majority opinion.

Oh thank god someone with reason.

 

[RedAssedApe]

colin fighting the good fight for the "poor" gamers while still buying psvr and ps4k at launch. truly an everyman

 

[CosmicQueso]

maybe. i'm not taking this colin as the next messiah but for now we have the bioware boss telling it would be a huge pain in the ass

The Bioware guy retired in 2012 and has been brewing beer since then. Jesus.

 

[Bots are better than you]

"Most developers"?

This is going to look pretty stupid if Sony have a developer interview reel like they did when they announced the ps4 hardware.

I highly doubt they would push forward with this unless the major publishers were on board.

Yeah, remember how Nintendo had EA with the unprecedented partnership, and Yves Guillemot stating the Nintendo vision aligns with Ubi's, and how asymmetrical gaming is the future, on stage at the Wii U announcement at E³ 2012. They had all the big ones on board!

 

[MK_768]

Seems the better option.

Tbh i feel like this console is entirely for those whiny guys on forums who complain when a game drops 2 frames or that the PS4 version isn't 1080p and locked at 60fps. Its like sony made an entire console just to shut those people up. Lol.

True. I mean I bitch about the technical stuff like FPS if it impacts my performance. I'm gonna be salty when I get some future PS4 game that drops to 20 or so FPS but the PS4K version doesn't. It shouldn't be like that. Hyrule Warriors is like that with regards to N3DS and 3DS and thats fucked.

 

[qa_engineer]

Arrogant Sony is back! Didn't take long.

Hey devs...just deal with it.

One of the worst posts I've seen. Others have posted similar "Arrogant Sony is back" posts but yours is by far the worst. Adds nothing to the conversation.

 

[SolidSnakex]

But words on messageboards, especially based on rumours before an official announcement has even been made with the actual specs and plans, do not necessarily correlate to actual market results. Hence why putting it on a shelf may well be the best way to see if it works.

Sure, and putting sometime on the shelf that consumers have made it quite clear that they don't want can also severely damage your reputation. Why risk it? Whenever the common response to you doing something is "Why", then you might want to reconsider it.

 

[Jacqli]

it's not just the extra work stuff. ps4 is in very good shape now which is something developers depend on to sell their games. messing with the business model by introducing new hardware is a gamble that might(and hopefully will) backfire.

I just don't see any sense in doing this now. I think the idea of iterative consoles is horrible on every level but if you are going to do it anyway then introduce the concept with a new gen and be honest about it upfront. it just seems stupid to risk momentum at this point when things are already going so well.

some people have brought up that it's a strategy to push 4k tv/bluray but that just seems backwards. how big of a market share will sony realistically have on 4k tvs and does anyone think 4k blurays will be a big thing? I don't think I know a single person who actually cares about bluray. for most people once they start using streaming services, going back to discs is not an appealing idea.

And I would understand that. Using the HDMI 2.0 or whatever is needed that the current model lacks of in the slim model so those who have a 4K TV can buy this product to take advantage of it (and probably they have more income than the common customer) is a decent idea.

But the whole iterative console… Nope, I am totally against it. I put on sale my console, but if I cannot sell it at a decent price, I would probably keep it because I do not like to waste money. But I won't buy from Sony any longer. This is my limit and I have a huge backlog apart from many classics I want to play.

colin fighting the good fight for the "poor" gamers while still buying psvr and ps4k at launch. truly an everyman

Hahaha. Now the Call of Duty boycott steam group image fits perfectly.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Woohoo! Problems solved! Well done, Vader!

I tried to help him. He was supposed to be the chosen one.

 

[LowParry]

He's a journalist. The PS4k info is also from journalists.

Hey that's great. Let's call out the source too while we're at it. I want to know who these developers are who are not in favor of this idea.

 

[Bl4ckSunsh1n3]

And unfortunately no matter how many devs or people experienced with coding say this, there will continue to be people on this and other sites who "disagree" despite not knowing what they are talking about. This behavior is unreal.

These PC comparisons are pointless. Getting the game to run on the new system is not the issue. Giving both versions the same attention and care is potentially a big one however.

PC games accommodate a wide variety of hardware configurations, and they also tend to not be as optimized for almost any of them as a console game is for it's set of specs. Coding for consoles can very often require a very different strategy than coding for PC and there were plenty of devs that spoke about this when they first started embracing consoles last gen.

The point isn't that it's super difficult. The point is that it does require significantly more time and resources if you want both versions to be as polished as they can be. And in an industry where games cost insane amounts of both of these things as it is, it should be very easily understood why developers would have an issue with this. If you don't get this then you probably don't want to.

This would probably not be as big a deal to them if they were getting any benefit from it, but I would imagine most devs don't see the benefits outweighing the cons for them.

That's pretty much what I was trying to say as well. I give up though, it's not worth talking about because "it should be easy" so apparently during all of my years of experience I've been doing the whole damn thing wrong.

 

[KORNdoggy]

It's like Sony made a console that runs games better. Lol.

Clearly not something most devs or consumers want...but it might silence the people i descibed...so it's worth it imo! Lol