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Conspiracies and the horseshoe theory

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Valhelm

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All across the internet, a very commonly-held philosophy is that "corporations control US politics", and that the party line is irrelevant. It's a bold point but hardly an unpopular one, and there is a very good amount of evidence to suggest that this is true. Corporations clearly have a major influence on American policy, and a lot of our post-WW2 military intervention has been done with business interests in mind. Today, very many vigilante bloggers are excited to expose what they see as a conspiracy, primarily how Democratic candidates are often as beholden to big money as their Republican opponents. Reddit's large conspiracy community is concerned with corporate dominance more than anything else, and conspiracy theories about corporations often tie into international banking and the "new world order". Many people who hold these beliefs often also subscribe to broadly anti-GMO or sometimes even anti-vaccination theories, based around the idea that there is a greater power hiding a secret. The main belief is that "regular people" ought to expose their overlords and cast them out, and that the United States was not always like this. Although it's pretty inarguable that US politics were always driven by the wealthy, many would insist that the dominance of money is a recent development, and that Americans instead ought to be governed by somebody else. Somebody like them.

It troubles me how much this rhetoric resembles the Anti-Semitic conspiracy theories of the 20th century. Both are a cynical, vaguely anti-Democratic belief that holds that a group of money-holders who are distinctly different from the common citizen are the true leaders of a nation, and that elections are irrelevant. The actions of unethical people who happen to be Jewish is often used by internet far-righters as proof of "Jewish evil", and sometimes is considered reason for all Jews to be persecuted. The most prominent far-right online communities are probably Stormfront and 4chan's /pol/ board. I have never personally experienced the former, but have spent a little bit of time observing anti-Semites on /pol/ and other parts of the site that they spill over to. While beliefs hugely differ (many bigots support non-Jewish corporations and want to create a fascist state, while others hate all corporations and would prefer a Jewish-exclusionary libertarian nation), these bigots tend to be quite alike mainstream liberal activists in that all of them agree that there is a silent upper class which must be removed from power, and that this silent upper class controls politics for their own benefit alone, without any regard for the common citizen.

Is this a manifestation of the horseshoe theory? Progressives (including radical leftists and everyday liberals) tend to be fierce opponents of any kind of bigotry. Many leftist groups like radical feminists or social justice bloggers on Tumblr are more concerned with social inequalities (such as women's rights or institutional oppression) rather than anything else. But many or most of these bloggers are also interested in changing politics to be less friendly to big money. This is an incredibly noble goal, but it often verges on baseless conspiracy, with sweeping accusations about how "your vote doesn't matter", "America is no longer a democracy", or "we need to rise up". This is identical to the rhetoric of white supremacists on places like /pol/, but instead of Zionists or all Jews, the monster that must be killed is corporatism. Far-right extremists believe that there is an innate Jewish character, of trickery and deceit, and that this means no Jewish people can be trusted. Most /pol/ users will tell you with a straight-face that Jews as a group are trying to destroy the West through "cultural Marxism" and financial dominance. As proof, they will present America's close ties to the state of Israel, or that the majority of current Federal Reserve chairs are Jewish. Meanwhile, many liberals (including huge amounts of my own friends and peers) are just as convicted to anti-corporate ideals, using evidence similar to what I linked above as proof that corporations control America. And because deceit and ill-intent are intrinsic to the corporate character, a corporate America is one in which everyone else will suffer. Clearly, anti-Semitism is far more harmful than anti-corporatism on the basis that anti-Semitism leads to the persecution of individuals, rather than of imaginary entities. However, the similarity of the beliefs and their overlap makes me worry that leftist conspiracy may lead to Zionist conspiracy. There seems to have been an increase in anti-Semitic nationalism in the past year (especially on Reddit and 4chan), and I wonder how much of this comes from liberals who saw anti-corporatist material on Social Media and then took a wrong turn down the rabbit hole.

Personally, I don't believe that corporations are necessarily immoral. While corporations have caused a great amount of despair, especially to the developing world, I can think of no other reason than corporate politics for the increasing standard of living outside of the West, and the success of formerly impoverished countries like Japan, Norway, Singapore, or Saudi Arabia. I agree that a global Marxist revolution would do much more to eradicate poverty than corporate Capitalism ever could, but I believe that would requite a global government, which I cannot perceive in the foreseeable future. I also have very guarded feelings toward Communism and hard socialism, given how poorly it has been employed in the past. I would not want to live in a world ran by corporations, but I don't believe that we currently live in one. Essentially all power that corporations have in American politics was given to them by voters, through their support of pro-Corporate politicians. As awful as this current influence is, I believe it would hardly be impossible to change. The election of a moderate leftist president (such as the kind of heads of state who regularly become elected in Europe) would do wonders to erode corporate influence, as would campaign finance reform to prevent those with means being allowed undue influence on the electoral process. Wide-sweeping generalizations like "America is no longer a democracy" are ridiculous to me, but seem increasingly common on the internet. It bothers me to see how popular conspiratorial thinking has become, especially given how dangerous this kind of baseless logic has proven to be.

Am I rambling or am I onto something? It's 1 AM and I doubt many posters will see this, but I really wanted to jot some thoughts down before I turned in for the night.
 
As awful as this current influence is, I believe it would hardly be impossible to change. The election of a moderate leftist president (such as the kind of heads of state who regularly become elected in Europe) would do wonders to erode corporate influence, as would campaign finance reform to prevent those with means being allowed undue influence on the electoral process. Wide-sweeping generalizations like "America is no longer a democracy" are ridiculous to me, but seem increasingly common on the internet. It bothers me to see how popular conspiratorial thinking has become, especially given how dangerous this kind of baseless logic has proven to be.

To elect such a president, they would first have to be a "legitimate" candidate. And by "legitimate" I mean have the financial backing and support to have a realistic chance of being not only elected but supported in policy-making. That kind of financial backing comes from the private sector. Why would they support a candidate that won't serve their interests? Why give them the media presence required to make them viable? In this way, the candidates the public gets to chose from have already been vetted and approved of by the wealthy ruling class.

Furthermore, the president (in theory) does not write laws. In order to "erode corporate influence" as you say, it would require a complete upheaval of representatives in the Legislative arm. Considering re-election is practically assured for the vast majority of candidates, that doesn't seem very likely either. Interest in smaller elections is even worse than the nation's paltry presidential election turnouts.

In short, you're a lot more optimistic than I am about this.
 

sphagnum

Banned
The difference between leftists who want revolution against global capitalism and rightists who want revolution against global capitalism is that leftist beliefs are based on analysis of economics, class conflict, and data while reactionaries' beliefs are based on flawed and unscientific traditionalist beliefs, privilege, and fear of the unknown.

The idea that the far left and the far right inevitably become alike is very much flawed. Communists can turn evil. Fascists are always evil.
 

Valhelm

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To elect such a president, they would first have to be a "legitimate" candidate. And by "legitimate" I mean have the financial backing and support to have a realistic chance of being not only elected but supported in policy-making. That kind of financial backing comes from the private sector. Why would they support a candidate that won't serve their interests? Why give them the media presence required to make them viable? In this way, the candidates the public gets to chose from have already been vetted and approved of by the wealthy ruling class.

Furthermore, the president (in theory) does not write laws. In order to "erode corporate influence" as you say, it would require a complete upheaval of representatives in the Legislative arm. Considering re-election is practically assured for the vast majority of candidates, that doesn't seem very likely either. Interest in smaller elections is even worse than the nation's paltry presidential election turnouts.

In short, you're a lot more optimistic than I am about this.

The president can't write laws, but the president can push for legislation and can appoint justices to the supreme court. More importantly, they can choose their own advisers, thus massively reducing the influences of big money. If President X does not deign to appoint a cabinet secretary with corporate ties (something President Obama has not done), they effectively decide how much corporate influence will exist in their administration.

A single anti-corporate president could transform American politics if he or she was willing to. And because certain moneyed groups would have an interest in this kind of president (such as unions or selfless billionaires), an election isn't hard to imagine. If America can elect a black man, American can certainly elect a president willing to step away from the corporate teat.

The difference between leftists who want revolution against global capitalism and rightists who want revolution against global capitalism is that leftist beliefs are based on analysis of economics, class conflict, and data while reactionaries' beliefs are based on flawed and unscientific traditionalist beliefs, privilege, and fear of the unknown.

The idea that the far left and the far right inevitably become alike is very much flawed. Communists can turn evil. Fascists are always evil.

That's true about academia more than anything else. The average "Facebook liberal" is honestly probably less informed (or at least less well-read) than the Neo-Nazis I've encountered online. At the very least, they're less able to defend their beliefs. I agree about your thoughts on Fascists, but I think that non-Academic leftists tend to be just as ill-informed. These people tend to know little about economics besides what they see on very biased infographics, and also hold many pretty unscientific beliefs.
 

soleil

Banned
Without trying to express optimism for it happening, I will express the necessity of the public to take responsibility of their own vote, by using public tools like www.opensecrets.org to find out which candidates are bought out, and then voting for whoever is not bought out. Again, I'm expressing necessity, not optimism. Saying it is needed is not saying it will happen. However, I will say that the voting group I blame the most are the ones who are aware of the corporate funding behind candidates and still support those candidates, especially the ones whose political beliefs are not aligned with the interests of those corporations.
 
A single anti-corporate president could transform American politics if he or she was willing to. And because certain moneyed groups would have an interest in this kind of president (such as unions or selfless billionaires), an election isn't hard to imagine. If America can elect a black man, American can certainly elect a president willing to step away from the corporate teat.

A couple selfless billionaires or unions (which unions?) isn't enough to do what you're asking. I think you are really underselling the amount of connections and "deals" you have to make to get into that position.

And I disagree. Electing a black man or a woman is a LOT easier than electing an anti-corporate president.
 

soleil

Banned
The president can't write laws, but the president can push for legislation and can appoint justices to the supreme court. More importantly, they can choose their own advisers, thus massively reducing the influences of big money. If President X does not deign to appoint a cabinet secretary with corporate ties (something President Obama has not done), they effectively decide how much corporate influence will exist in their administration.

A single anti-corporate president could transform American politics if he or she was willing to. And because certain moneyed groups would have an interest in this kind of president (such as unions or selfless billionaires), an election isn't hard to imagine. If America can elect a black man, American can certainly elect a president willing to step away from the corporate teat.



That's true about academia more than anything else. The average "Facebook liberal" is honestly probably less informed (or at least less well-read) than the Neo-Nazis I've encountered online. At the very least, they're less able to defend their beliefs. I agree about your thoughts on Fascists, but I think that non-Academic leftists tend to be just as ill-informed. These people tend to know little about economics besides what they see on very biased infographics, and also hold many pretty unscientific beliefs.
Thank you.

I love the double-speak a lot of people have. First they say "It's SO important that we elect Hillary instead of a Republican because of everything at stake" and then you point out how Hillary is bought out by the same corporations that buy out Republicans and Bernie Sanders isn't, they say "The president isn't as powerful as you think it is." You can't have it both ways, people.
 

sphagnum

Banned
Having an "anti-corporate president" doesn't mean very much when the means of production would continue to be held privately regardless. Transforming from the godawful wreck that America is currently to a social democratic state would be heavenly but even such a state is one that exists due to privilege and exploitation of the proletariat, whether that proletariat is within the country or sourced from a third world nation.

It's just sweeping the real problem under the rug. Being against "corporatist" politicians is a very left-liberal thing, but not necessarily a very left thing.

That's true about academia more than anything else. The average "Facebook liberal" is honestly probably less informed (or at least less well-read) than the Neo-Nazis I've encountered online. At the very least, they're less able to defend their beliefs. I agree about your thoughts on Fascists, but I think that non-Academic leftists tend to be just as ill-informed. These people tend to know little about economics besides what they see on very biased infographics, and also hold many pretty unscientific beliefs.

Oh absolutely. It's a major source of frustration to socialists (and it's not like socialists are uniformly great critical thinkers - see Tankies, who are great thinkers but mostly in the way that they can rationalize away terrible things). But it's a starting point, because they're people who have the general sense to know to the world's problems stem from systemic factors rather than the kind of victim blaming that reactionaries engage in.
 

Condom

Member
I think you make a decent point but also grossly underestimate the disasters of developed Capitalism.
Democracy doesn't matter because the markets are more powerful than ever, it is literally out of our control. Look at Europe, we're slaves of national and international banks that blatantly screwed us over. Almost nothing we can do will change the system because the market is global and dynamic.

It's extremely complicated especially because of human greed, which is the thing driving Capitalism and it's negative effects.
 

HK-47

Oh, bitch bitch bitch.
Thank you.

I love the double-speak a lot of people have. First they say "It's SO important that we elect Hillary instead of a Republican because of everything at stake" and then you point out how Hillary is bought out by the same corporations that buy out Republicans and Bernie Sanders isn't, they say "The president isn't as powerful as you think it is." You can't have it both ways, people.

So essentially you are toting out the bullshit "both sides are the same" line. First past the post is broken as fuck, that means voting Hilary because the "people" are more worried about the GOP for more reasons than just corporatism.
 

soleil

Banned
So essentially you are toting out the bullshit "both sides are the same" line. First past the post is broken as fuck, that means voting Hilary because the "people" are more worried about the GOP for more reasons than just corporatism.
No, I'm not saying both sides are the same. I'm saying you need to stop seeing it as two sides. You need to see it as many individuals. Some individuals are bought out and some are not. Vote for the ones who are not.
 

Iksenpets

Banned
I remember a passage from school — I think it was from Tocqueville — about how in democracies everyone always believes their views are in the majority. I think for both right and left, there's a strong desire to cling to the delusion that we're the real majority. Righties tell themselves that if the Democrats would just stop stealing elections with all their voter fraud, the true, conservative will of the people could finally be implemented, and lefties tell themselves that if only the corporations stopped buying elections the true, progressive will of the people could finally be implemented.

Like in most things, the left is less delusional than the right, and corporate influence is a real problem, unlike voter fraud, even if it is a way more minor problem than they want to believe. But yeah, I think it's fundamentally a way of trying to deny the fact that the median voter really doesn't want a state as far left as some people would like it to be. Blame the current alignment of politics on the corporations, because admitting that voters just don't want to go that far left is basically admitting defeat for your whole project.

The result is that the extremes on both sides have to become more and more conspiratorial to explain why they're not winning.
 

Dryk

Member
Essentially all power that corporations have in American politics was given to them by voters, through their support of pro-Corporate politicians. As awful as this current influence is, I believe it would hardly be impossible to change. The election of a moderate leftist president (such as the kind of heads of state who regularly become elected in Europe) would do wonders to erode corporate influence, as would campaign finance reform to prevent those with means being allowed undue influence on the electoral process.
The main problem is that it takes much, much, much more effort from a unified populace to break out of that than the energy required to maintain it. The average person on the street doesn't even know about most of the ways they're being manipulated and even if they do the human brain is so easy to play in certain respects that you need constant vigilance to stop falling into the trap.

(I'm not talking about conspiracy stuff I'm talking about the exploitation of common cognitive biases that forms the foundation of marketing and PR)
 

Valhelm

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I remember a passage from school — I think it was from Tocqueville — about how in democracies everyone always believes their views are in the majority. I think for both right and left, there's a strong desire to cling to the delusion that we're the real majority. Righties tell themselves that if the Democrats would just stop stealing elections with all their voter fraud, the true, conservative will of the people could finally be implemented, and lefties tell themselves that if only the corporations stopped buying elections the true, progressive will of the people could finally be implemented.

Like in most things, the left is less delusional than the right, and corporate influence is a real problem, unlike voter fraud, even if it is a way more minor problem than they want to believe. But yeah, I think it's fundamentally a way of trying to deny the fact that the median voter really doesn't want a state as far left as some people would like it to be. Blame the current alignment of politics on the corporations, because admitting that voters just don't want to go that far left is basically admitting defeat for your whole project.

The result is that the extremes on both sides have to become more and more conspiratorial to explain why they're not winning.

This is a really great point. The fear and doubt may be less about "why are we not in charge of our destinies", but instead "why is my party not currently in charge."
 
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