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[Kabouter]

Every year in the Netherlands, the holiday of Sinterklaas is celebrated by many. Sinterklaas, a bastardization of St. Nicholas, is the saint upon which Santa Claus is based. Instead, rather than being aided by elves, Sinterklaas is aided by Zwarte Pieten (Black Petes), black men in Moorish clothes. Usually, these characters are portrayed by white folks with black face paint and wigs. An example of what that might look like, here.

Now, every year there is a nationally televised 'arrival' of Sinterklaas by boat in a coastal or riverside town, this year in the town of Dordrecht. To prevent trouble with the large crowds, the municipality decided to make it illegal to demonstrate in the town centre. Several protesters, one of whom was Curaçao poet Quinsy Gario, decided to go wearing shirts saying 'Zwarte Piet is racism'. Resulting in this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-Wf89f0I0M (mirror here)

The video was also seen by Sheldry Osepa, the minister plenipotentiary of Curaçao in The Hague. He says that watching the video made him both worried and angry. "A skinhead-esque shaven policeman, together with colleagues, thought they should apprehend the pacifist Quinsy Gario". Furthermore he remarks that "The people's fundamental right to freedom of speech and the freedom of assembly and right to protest needs to be respected. The government needs to assure this. The abuse of Quincy Gario is a slap in the unpainted face of our black artists" "It is time the Netherlands offers protection to minorities regardless of religion, political orientation, race or gender"

A spokesman for the city of Dordrecht says that the demonstration was not allowed, noting that it was "incredibly busy in the city with a vulnerable audience. We don't take any risks in cases like that." According to the spokesman, the protesters were asked five times to stop their protest. "Officers told them it is a festival for children, and that the texts on their shirts and banners weren't pleasant. Later that day they still sought a platform for their opinion." They had left the banner at home, but not the shirts, leading the police to intervene.

Dutch sources: here and here

 

[Flo]

All of that in front of all those children, ridiculous. To say demonstrating is not allowed because there is a 'vulnerable audience' I understand, but the way they handle it baffles me.

Also the comment about a skinhead-esque shaven policeman made me chuckle. His head is way too shiny for my taste, but to call any bald guy a skinhead is stupid.

 

[runningjoke]

Zwarte Pieten are naughty Dutch children who are taken to Spain to work for Sinterklaas. They get black skin from climbing up and down the chimney delivering presents. Anyone claiming it is somehow racist is wrong. Child labour or slavery sure, just not racist.

 

[The Albatross]

Feel like I just walked into a Skyrim quest.


...

karry on.

 

[rSpooky]

Waiting for the usual "OMG Blackface , so evil " outsider comments. There is so much more to it on face value.

It is a tradition and it is for kids. It does not promote racism in any form. To kids there is a distinct difference between a balck person and a zwarte piet. They have friends that are of all ethinicity .
They are nto scared or confused by the pieten,they love them for they bring candy , bring jolly times and do funny things, sometimes they are even great acrobats. The Sint would be a useless old man without them.

And on the origins from zwarte pieten is a big debate, there is an infusion of norse mythology ( odins demons I believe) as well as Saint Nicolas freeing a slave who then out of gratefullness stayed with him. Whatever the history though, it has evolved into something fun for kids. I dont see why adults always have to pervert things.

yes I am Dutch and yes I support the tradition.

Edit: I am not sure how the behaviour of the officer was.. i cannot see the vid at work. Is it racist because he was white ?
Edit the post some.It did read bad.

 

[dave is ok]

Zwarte Pieten are naughty Dutch children who are taken to Spain to work for Sinterklaas. They get black skin from climbing up and down the chimney delivering presents. Anyone claiming it is somehow racist is wrong. Child labour or slavery sure, just not racist.

It's racist. At least to the rest of the world.

 

[Azih]

Zwarte Pieten are naughty Dutch children who are taken to Spain to work for Sinterklaas. They get black skin from climbing up and down the chimney delivering presents.

How come their clothes aren't sooty if they've been climbing up and down chimneys? Plus why are they wearing 'Moorish' dresses?

 

[dave is ok]

How come their clothes aren't sooty if they've been climbing up and down chimneys?

Why are their lips so big and red? Why does their hair magically turn into an afro?

 

[rSpooky]

Zwarte Pieten are naughty Dutch children who are taken to Spain to work for Sinterklaas. They get black skin from climbing up and down the chimney delivering presents. Anyone claiming it is somehow racist is wrong. Child labour or slavery sure, just not racist.

Never hear dit from the naughty children angle.

 

[Sickboy007]

It's racist. At least to americans that have a different history with blackface.

fixed

 

[rSpooky]

It's racist. At least to the rest of the world.

World English Dictionary

racism or racialism (ˈreɪsɪzəm, ˈreɪʃəˌlɪzəm)

—n


1.

the belief that races have distinctive cultural characteristics determined by hereditary factors and that this endows some races with an intrinsic superiority over others


2.

abusive or aggressive behaviour towards members of another race on the basis of such a belief

Come again?

 

[Alucrid]

Waiting for the usual "OMG Blackface , so evil " outsider comments. There is so much more to it on face value.

It is a tradition and it is for kids. It does not promote racism in any form. To kids there is a distinct difference between a balck person and a zwarte piet. They love the pieten, they bring candy , bring jolly times and do funny things, sometimes they are even great acrobats. The Sint would be a useless old man without them.

And on the origins from zwarte pieten is a big debate, there is an infusion of norse mythology ( odins demons I believe) as well as Saint Nicolas freeing a slave who then out of gratefullness stayed with him. Whatever the history though, it has evolved into something fun for kids. I dont see why adults always have to pervert things.

yes I am Dutch and yes I support the tradition.

Edit: I am not sure how the behaviour of the officer was.. i cannot see the vid at work. Is it racist because he was white ?

If they live the zwarte piet does that mean they hate black people?

Also if the black skin is really just soot are the bright red lips really just look aid?

 

[Azih]

Seriously if there were elves around than the British/American version of Santa Claus with his elf helpers would be incredibly offensive as well.

 

[rSpooky]

One year they had the steamboat go through a rainbow making al the pieten red, white, blue, yellow etc..
Didnt go over so well, I still see some of them here and there , but within a year it went back to the traditional.

 

[SmokyDave]

This topic will change dramatically in tone over the next few hours.

 

[Particle Physicist]

I thought every year people argue that Zwarte Pieten is not racist and that black people don't have problems with them?

It's racist. At least to the rest of the world.

And at least that guy in the video.

 

[Stridone]

People complaining over Zwarte Piet are pathetic. Get a life. It's an old, fun tradition in the Netherlands, there is NOTHING racist about the intertention nowadays, the Zwarte Pieten are just happy helpers and not one child (or reasonable adult) thinks they are black slaves or whatever it is you fools think this is representing.

Seriously, you people are like PETA. The cause is good (fighting racism) but the execution is just saddening..

 

[Particle Physicist]

What is a Moor?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moors

The description Moors has referred to several historic and modern populations of the Maghreb region (Western North Africa) who are predominately of Berber and Arab descent[1]. They came to conquer and rule the Iberian Peninsula for nearly 800 years. At that time they were Muslim, although earlier the people had followed other religions.

Clearly Black Petes are not meant to represent people of color. Clearly.

 

[harSon]

Waiting for the usual "OMG Blackface , so evil " outsider comments. There is so much more to it on face value.

It is a tradition and it is for kids. It does not promote racism in any form. To kids there is a distinct difference between a black person and a zwarte piet. They love the pieten, they bring candy , bring jolly times and do funny things, sometimes they are even great acrobats. The Sint would be a useless old man without them.

And on the origins from zwarte pieten is a big debate, there is an infusion of norse mythology ( odins demons I believe) as well as Saint Nicolas freeing a slave who then out of gratefullness stayed with him. Whatever the history though, it has evolved into something fun for kids. I dont see why adults always have to pervert things.

yes I am Dutch and yes I support the tradition.

Edit: I am not sure how the behaviour of the officer was.. i cannot see the vid at work. Is it racist because he was white ?

This reads SO bad hahaha

 

[2San]

Hope this shit blows up. This should not be tolerated. The Doordrecht municipality and the police officers should get some form of retribution.

 

[runningjoke]

How come their clothes aren't sooty if they've been climbing up and down chimneys?

Have you seen them climbing up and down chimneys wearing those clothes? Me neither. Probably a change of clothes.

Plus why are they wearing 'Moorish' dresses?

Because they can? I dunno it's tradition

 

[rSpooky]

If they live the zwarte piet does that mean they hate black people?

Also if the black skin is really just soot are the bright red lips really just look aid?

No they like everyone the same. I am trying to say , there is not indoctrination of someone that looks different being lesser somehow.

The soot is what now gets used more as an explanation these days.. I just know that version to explain why piets arms are not always the same colour as his/her face.

They are a lovable bunch of which some are smart and some are naive, some are muscial and some are cudable. They all have in common that they want to give kids a great time, help the old Saint Nicolas with his task of doing so. No one gets beaten, whipped, put down, insulted, lynched .. you name it.

 

[harSon]

Have you seen them climbing up and down chimneys wearing those clothes? Me neither. Probably a change of clothes.

Because they can? I dunno it's tradition

You skipped how their lips manages to enlarge and redden, and how their hair turns into an afro.

 

[rSpooky]

This reads SO bad hahaha

Yes it did..lol.. Not what I meant .. sorry

 

[Alucrid]

You skipped how their lips manages to enlarge and redden, and how their hair turns into an afro.

They eat lip stick and were around when across and jerry curls were popular.

 

[Particle Physicist]

Have you seen them climbing up and down chimneys wearing those clothes? Me neither. Probably a change of clothes.

Because they can? I dunno it's tradition

lol. Remember guys, there is no connection between what they wear and the color of their skin.

 

[Kurtofan]

Have you seen them climbing up and down chimneys wearing those clothes? Me neither. Probably a change of clothes.

Because they can? I dunno it's tradition

Moor is the old word for African people, they wear moor clothes because they're supposed to be black people, hence the fact that it's racist.

 

[runningjoke]

You skipped how their lips manages to enlarge and redden, and how their hair turns into an afro.

Err eehh your hair starts to look afroish if you don't wash it? Red lips so you can tell who has had a kiss from a female Piet or something something NOT RACIST

 

[SmokyDave]

What reason do we have to believe the cop is a racist? His actions (although heavy-handed) seem perfectly legitimate in light of the info in the OP.

Why is he being described as a 'racist Dutch cop'?

 

[Particle Physicist]

Err eehh your hair starts to look afroish if you don't wash it? Red lips so you can tell who has had a kiss from a female Piet or something something NOT RACIST

So are you saying that all homeless people should have afros? Cause they don't.

Listen guys, the black skin, the Moor clothing, the big red lips, the afro hair... none of that stuff is actually connected. It was all just thrown together, these are all meant to be dirty children that make out with women who wear lipstick!

 

[msv]

lol. Remember guys, there is no connection between what they where and the color of their skin.

Even if they were, where's the negativity? They work of their own free will, they are pictured as a diverse bunch, in many ways much more capable than st nicolaas. It's more like the petes are taking care of him. The only thing you're worried about, is that they're all charcoal colored. I don't see how kids could get any negative racial attitudes from this.

 

[dave is ok]

Honestly, I don't think the Dutch people are racist - I am sure it seems completely normal and innocent to them.

But the "Golliwog" iconography has existed for a very long time and in many more countries than the USA. The whole motif has a lot of negativity associated with it at this point. That is why it's racist, even if the intention is pure.

 

[Sickboy007]

Is the representation of an african man by a caucasian intrinsically racist? Even if it there is no harm or negative connotations and the culture representing it doesn't have a long history of mocking people of color with blackface?
I think this is like saying to Buddhists that they're nazis for using the swastika.

 

[Sol..]

When again did this originate?

 

[Particle Physicist]

Even if they were, where's the negativity? They work of their own free will, they are pictured as a diverse bunch, in many ways much more capable than st nicolaas. It's more like the petes are taking care of him. The only thing you're worried about, is that they're all charcoal colored. I don't see how kids could get any negative racial attitudes from this.

It's a caricature of black people. Look at the smiling negro with big red lips that likes to sing, dance and have a good time.

Obviously the black dutch guy in the video found it offensive. I assume, there are other as well.

 

[harSon]

Even if they were, where's the negativity? They work of their own free will, they are pictured as a diverse bunch, in many ways much more capable than st nicolaas. It's more like the petes are taking care of him. The only thing you're worried about, is that they're all charcoal colored. I don't see how kids could get any negative racial attitudes from this.

Wasn't he originally a devil who was enslaved and shackled by Sinterklass to do his bidding?

 

[2San]

What reason do we have to believe the cop is a racist? His actions (although heavy-handed) seem perfectly legitimate in light of the info in the OP.

Why is he being described as a 'racist Dutch cop'?

They listened to the cops, but decided to keep wearing the T-shirts. Wearing the T-Shirts should be perfectly acceptable. People shouldn't have to change their opinions or clothes just because cops say so. I really don't see the major problem here as racism, but a violation of freedom of speech.

 

[Azih]

Is the representation of an african man by a caucasian intrinsically racist?

This Quincy Gario guy and the other protestors seem like Dutch people who think it's racist.

 

[Alucrid]

Even if they were, where's the negativity? They work of their own free will, they are pictured as a diverse bunch, in many ways much more capable than st nicolaas. It's more like the petes are taking care of him. The only thing you're worried about, is that they're all charcoal colored. I don't see how kids could get any negative racial attitudes from this.

"Its ok became they're representing good black people who take care of an older white gentlemen."

But why are they explicitly black again?

 

[Large Professor]

I'm betting the day the American ambassador to the Netherlands complains about this, this tradition will be abolished.

(And yes I'm Dutch, and yes I don't really care either way).

 

[Sickboy007]

This Quincy Gario guy and the other protestors seem like Dutch people who think it's racist.

No doubt about this, but it doesn't answer my question.

 

[WorriedCitizen]

We have this thread every year lol.

 

[cobragt4001]

Using wikipedia for a history lesson is a joke lol The Moors as a majority were of dark skin, and yes you had light complexion people that were Moors but lets not act like the Moors were some melting pot. If you read Greek and Roman sources on the Moors you would see that they described them as nigri which means black or adusti meaning scorched and the Roman dramatist Platus maintainted that the Latin word Maurus(moors) was a synonym for Niger so there you have it. Please don't whitewash my ancestor's history.

I remember reading about this Zwarte Piet years ago and I feel the same way now that I felt when I first read this, it's racial trash. Look at the German version of this tale and you'll see that the black helpers are devils that have been conquered. This Sinterklaas is just a symbol of white dominance over black like St. Patrick who is celebrated cause he drove the Moors from Ireland.

 

[Scipius]

I was wondering why we didn't have this thread yet. Great fun, as always.

 

[Ela Hadrun]

To me, this isn't a story about whether Piet is racist or not.

This is a story about how if a guy shows up at a parade wearing a shirt that says, "Zwarte Piet is racism" suddenly it's "ZOMG THINK OF THE CHILDREN"

I guess better to jump on a guy and haul him bodily off in front of the children than have the children wonder if Zwarte Piet makes some people angry. CHRISTMAS WOULD BE RUINED.

like St. Patrick who is celebrated cause he drove the Moors from Ireland.

This is relevant to my interests. Please explain.

 

[Particle Physicist]

Using wikipedia for a history lesson is a joke lol The Moors as a majority were of dark skin, and yes you had light complexion people that were Moors but lets not act like the Moors were some melting pot. If you read Greek and Roman sources on the Moors you would see that they described them as nigri which means black or adusti meaning scorched and the Roman dramatist Platus maintainted that the Latin word Maurus(moors) was a synonym for Niger so there you have it. Please don't whitewash my ancestor's history

My point was that they were from Western North Africa. I was being sarcastic when I said it does not represent people of color.

 

[Sickboy007]

To me, this isn't a story about whether Piet is racist or not.

This is a story about how if a guy shows up at a parade wearing a shirt that says, "Zwarte Piet is racism" suddenly it's "ZOMG THINK OF THE CHILDREN"

I guess better to jump on a guy and haul him bodily off in front of the children than have the children wonder if Zwarte Piet makes some people angry. CHRISTMAS WOULD BE RUINED.

That's true, the police reaction was ridiculously disproportionate.

 

[lastendconductor]

Racist

 

[Azih]

No doubt about this, but it doesn't answer my question.

Alright then

A representation of an african man is racist if african men feel slighted and/or demeaned by it.

 

[msv]

"Its ok became they're representing good black people who take care of an older white gentlemen."

But why are they explicitly black again?

Dunno, I always thought/was told it was because of the chimney stuff as a kid. What's so wrong about a positive stereotype actually? If it even is one. It's not posed as one. So what's the big deal here? Are you so scared of the slight pictorial resemblance to slavery in America that you think this might function as an enabler or slippery slope to racism?