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[Chuckie]

Of course not, who would want to identify themselves with black petes?

All the kids actually.

But I don't think Always-Honest meant 'identify themselves', rather something as 'personally attacked' or being made fun off.

Edit: Why did I post in this topic again

 

[Alucrid]

All the kids actually.

But I don't think Always-Honest meant 'identify themselves', rather something as 'personally attacked' or being made fun off.

Edit: Why did I post in this topic again

So its "I know black people who aren't offended therefore its not offensive" eh?

 

[methane47]

Blog post from this guy
http://www.ninsee.nl/weblog/index/

Case in point: my kid. My daughter was 3 years old when - a real Zwarte Piet came to our door! It was Pakjesavond, just after dark, and the doorbell rang. My daughter ran and flung open the door. And there – standing in the doorway – was a real guy, with a crazy yellow & red outfit, a black face, & curly black hair. He was holding out a package for my daughter. And his uniform said: DHL.

My wife & I recognized the man as Stanley, the Surinamese gentleman who delivers the post on our street. But my daughter’s eyes saw only one thing. She raised up her hand and yelled ‘Zwarte Piet!’ The American in me was agonized! ‘God, no!’ I thought.. ‘My 3 year-old daughter is a racist!’ I wanted to apologize to Stanley. And later I did. Stanley gave the response I’ve heard so often: ‘It happens all the time.’

I did a survey of Surinamese Dutch people and asked them: How do you deal with the Dutch kids calling you Zwarte Piet? My favorite answers:
‘I tell them Zwarte Piet has BLUE eyes.’
‘I just wait for 6 december.’
+ ‘I hire myself out for parties.’
This proves that Surinamers have truly integrated into Dutch culture.

Just saying..

It doesn't seem like stanley was offended or insulted that he was identified by a 3 year old as Zwarte Piet... Does this mean there isn't a problem here? I don't know.

 

[corporate cheerleader]

Another Dutchie here. I've never seen a black person who was offended by Zwarte Pieten. Sure, there might be some hyper-sensitive black people, but they are a very small minority.

It's actually more offensive to see kids eating candy off dirty ground. :x I never participated in that.

 

[neorej]

Blog post from this guy
http://www.ninsee.nl/weblog/index/

Just saying..

It doesn't seem like stanley was offended or insulted that he was identified by a 3 year old as Zwarte Piet... Does this mean there isn't a problem here? I don't know.

Anecdotal evidence and all that. The black people I know are not offended by Zwarte Piet, don't get called Zwarte Piet in the street. So that cancels his story out, doesn't it?

Maybe that guy is racist? His daughter apparently only knows black people from Zwarte Piet, it's not that surprising she calls Stanley Zwarte Piet if the only black people she knows about are Zwarte Pieten.

 

[Chuckie]

So its "I know black people who aren't offended therefore its not offensive" eh?

No. Always-Honest said black people don't identify themselves with Zwarte Piet, I said I think he meant 'offended/personally attacked' instead of 'identify themselves'.

Just a clarification about what I think AH meant. How you come from that clarification to "I know black people who aren't offended therefore its not offensive" I really do not understand.

Now I am really out. AH himself can explain if he really meant identify or offended / personally attacked.

 

[methane47]

Anecdotal evidence and all that. The black people I know are not offended by Zwarte Piet, don't get called Zwarte Piet in the street. So that cancels his story out, doesn't it?

Maybe that guy is racist? His daughter apparently only knows black people from Zwarte Piet, it's not that surprising she calls Stanley Zwarte Piet if the only black people she knows about are Zwarte Pieten.

So My anecdotal evidence is invalid but other people's anecdotal evidence is completely valid, reasonable and sound.

 

[neorej]

So My anecdotal evidence is invalid but other people's anecdotal evidence is completely valid, reasonable and sound.

Great way to miss the point. I'm out.

 

[Particle Physicist]

The only ones who are having a problem with Zwarte Pieten are non-Dutch and douchebags who see racism everywhere, including in a jar of peanutbutter. I don't see why it should change.

Are you saying that the Dutch people in this thread that have issues with it are douchebags that see racism everywhere? In the words of our eternal friend, that is a hell of an assumption.

 

[Particle Physicist]

I seem to think there wouldn't have been more because protests during Sinterklaas aren't a big thing. I can't even remember it ever happening before. Yes there have been protests about Zwarte Piet, but not by protesters among the waiting children.

I never ever stated this issue could not be discussed or that people aren't allowed to protest it, just leave the kids alone. Go to the parliament and raise the issue or protest there.

So you Assume that there would not have been a large crowd of protesters, and you base this assumption on what?

And how dare people want to protest a racist practice during the racist practice? Think of the kids!!!

No I did not. I said I had anecdotal evidence which differed from the anecdotal evidence provided in a thread and that I would like to know the real feelings of the Dutch people trough a survey. How the fuck is that making an assumption?

And now I am done with it. I now know better to ever enter a thread about Zwarte Piet on GAF again.

Yeah, you made another claim but you prefaced it with 'oh I wish we could get a survey.' Your post was clearly made to defend the practice, and you did not seem to have any problems with the assumptions and wild claims made by those defending Black Pete.

 

[Chuckie]

So you Assume that there would not have been a large crowd of protesters, and you base this assumption on what?

And how dare people want to protest a racist practice during the racist practice? Think of the kids!!!

Maybe not white kids, but as our friend Tence stated, you cannot make generalizations like that. '

In the words of our eternal friend, that is a hell of an assumption.

You're really trying to make it personal here. Don't be so fucking butthurt I said you were making assumptions ok. We get the picture. I used the word assuming a couple of times... now you are repeating it. Very clever.

Yeah, you made another claim but you prefaced it with 'oh I wish we could get a survey.' Your post was clearly made to defend the practice, and you did not seem to have any problems with the assumptions and wild claims made by those defending Black Pete.

No it was not, that's what you are reading in it. I actually would like to hear the voice of the Dutch people on this issue ESPECIALLY because some coloured Dutch-GAFfers consider it as racist/hurtful. I genuinely thought that the coloured people in Holland don't care and are not offended by Zwarte Piet, and I genuinely want to know if that is true or that I am actually wrong.
You might not believe it, but I actually do care what my coloured fellow Dutchies think about Zwarte Piet.

 

[Arjen]

I should've known better then try to argue about this subject.
Let's try again next year.

 

[Foxy Fox 39]

Ah...The ignorance of the people whom racism doesn't affect.

Yes. Keep saying that a person dressed up in an Afro, Blackface, and bright red lips as a caricature of black people is in no way wrong.

 

[Foxy Fox 39]

You really think it's weird we're getting defensive over this?
This thread is baciscly people coming in and saying:
"Hey guys, you know that holiday you loved as a kid? That's pretty racist and evil, and you should feel bad for liking and enjoying it"

Yeah I think that's the problem. We're not jaded (as much), you are.

You've grown up with this holiday and associated with it are extremely fond feelings.

Educated people don't like to be called racist, especially today. So when they are confronted with something that could delve into that area they try to make every possible excuse as to why that's not how it is, or how they are.

I understand you probably aren't racist. But the word racist/racism has evolved into more than just "Individual who hates another race". Its now covering all those sort of words, actions and deeds that undermine another race.

This definitely undermines black people.

 

[HarryHengst]

Ah yes, the annually "omg Sinterklaas is so racist" bullshit. How about especially you Americans start dealing with your own racism towards blacks before you start telling other nations how racist they are?

 

[corporate cheerleader]

I should've known better then try to argue about this subject.
Let's try again next year.

We should just let them fly over next year so they can experience true Sinterklaas for themselves.

 

[HarryHengst]

Another Dutchie here. I've never seen a black person who was offended by Zwarte Pieten. Sure, there might be some hyper-sensitive black people, but they are a very small minority.

It's actually more offensive to see kids eating candy off dirty ground. :x I never participated in that.

I've only ever met white people who are offended by it. Being all political correct and everything.

 

[Alucrid]

Ah yes, the annually "omg Sinterklaas is so racist" bullshit. How about especially you Americans start dealing with your own racism towards blacks before you start telling other nations how racist they are?

So you admit that its racist and just that us americans (well americans by your assumption) can't say anything bad because we have our own racial issues that we acknowledge?

 

[Wazzim]

Ah yes, the annually "omg Sinterklaas is so racist" bullshit. How about especially you Americans start dealing with your own racism towards blacks before you start telling other nations how racist they are?

Ehh yeah that's prety low man. It's not hard to acknowledge that it is racist, it is. It's just not seen as bad here and we have candy.

 

[methane47]

According to this thread.

If you are white and you see Zwarte Piet as edit: (a racist caricature) you are: Being Politically Correct
If you are black and you see Zwarte Piet as edit: (a racist caricature) you are: Not Dutch and/or a douchebag and/or You see racism in Peanut butter.

 

[Foxy Fox 39]

According to this thread.

If you are white and you see Zwarte Piet as racist you are: Being Politically Correct
If you are black and you see Zwarte Piet as racist you are: Not Dutch and/or a douchebag and/or You see racism in Peanut butter.

Or you're just an american.

 

[Particle Physicist]

You're really trying to make it personal here. Don't be so fucking butthurt I said you were making assumptions ok. We get the picture. I used the word assuming a couple of times... now you are repeating it. Very clever.

Personal? You are the one making the insults. I was just pointing out how you seemed to call me out on something that you completely ignored from other posters. Even when the other posters were being quite a bit inflammatory.

No it was not, that's what you are reading in it. I actually would like to hear the voice of the Dutch people on this issue ESPECIALLY because some coloured Dutch-GAFfers consider it as racist/hurtful. I genuinely thought that the coloured people in Holland don't care and are not offended by Zwarte Piet, and I genuinely want to know if that is true or that I am actually wrong.
You might not believe it, but I actually do care what my coloured fellow Dutchies think about Zwarte Piet.

Like I said, you only seem to counter people in here that say Zwarte Piet is racist and not the other way around. That's all I was pointing out.

 

[Particle Physicist]

Or you're just an american.

People keep posting this in the thread (i know not you), but how do they know that those posting about the racist Zwarte Piet are American? For instance methane47 already mentioned how he was Dutch. I personally am currently living in the US, but I don't consider myself straight up American. I'm sort of a 'conglomerate' of a bunch of crap. I find all of these defenses to be quite hilarious actually.

 

[corporate cheerleader]

I've only ever met white people who are offended by it. Being all political correct and everything.

(cool name) They could also be stingy and don't want to spend extra cash on their kids, haha.

----

This is how I see it: These stereotypes are seriously outdated and don't reflect black people in the present time, that's why not that many people here are offended (not even black people) by it as much as outsiders would think. Plenty of us do think it's stupid, though. But over-the-top offensive that you need to cause riots? Nah.

I wouldn't want to see people get in trouble here for a stupid tradition like this, seriously.

 

[methane47]

(cool name) They could also be stingy and don't want to spend extra cash on their kids, haha.

----

This is how I see it: These stereotypes are seriously outdated and don't reflect black people in the present time, that's why not that many people here are offended (not even black people) by it as much as outsiders would think. Plenty of us do think it's stupid, though. But over-the-top offensive that you need to cause riots? Nah.

I wouldn't want to see people get in trouble here for a stupid tradition like this, seriously.

Ok let me go ahead and agree with you here. I think the Zwarte Piet character is insensitive and alittle offensive, but that said, I lose absolutely no sleep about it. What I don't get is how some folks seem to violently resist that it has ANY racist overtones in it what so ever. Even so much as to Make it Illegal to protest peacefully.

I do not think the caricature is over the top offensive such that Change is Needed right now in order to save our people type stuff. But it wouldn't hurt for a hand to stretch from across the isle every now and again that admits any of the following.

1) Zwarte Piet is made to look like black people and that chimney soot made my face black and turned my hair into an afro is crap.
2) There are some dutch people who actually live in holland that opose it and its not just ONE man creating noise.
3) It may have an effect on our kids.

No one is going to kill you for being sensitive to others.

 

[Jenga]

Ah yes, the annually "omg Sinterklaas is so racist" bullshit. How about especially you Americans start dealing with your own racism towards blacks before you start telling other nations how racist they are?

if it makes you feel better I don't think your average american is even aware of your country's racism

or your country for that matter

 

[corporate cheerleader]

Ok let me go ahead and agree with you here. I think the Zwarte Piet character is insensitive and alittle offensive, but that said, I lose absolutely no sleep about it. What I don't get is how some folks seem to violently resist that it has ANY racist overtones in it what so ever. Even so much as to Make it Illegal to protest peacefully.

It definitely has racist overtones (based on history, but still), it's wrong of them to deny that. And with the riot part, I meant that people are allowed to protest against it, but not in an obstructive way that it impacts the excitement of the children waiting to catch a glimpse of the old white fart and victims of horrible make-up jobs and awful fashion.

I do not think the caricature is over the top offensive such that Change is Needed right now in order to save our people type stuff. But it wouldn't hurt for a hand to stretch from across the isle every now and again that admits any of the following.

1) Zwarte Piet is made to look like black people and that chimney soot made my face black and turned my hair into an afro crap.
2) There are some dutch people who actually live in holland that opose it and its not just ONE man creating noise.
3) It may have an effect on our kids.

No one is going to kill you for being sensitive to others.

1 - They are meant to look like black people, definitely.
2 - I'll believe that.
3 - May, but I'd say that's something case-by-case. Kids might be different right now, but we didn't associate Zwarte Pieten with the black kids in our class, just for the fact that they looked so damn ridiculous. Kids who live in farmland outskirts who've never seen a colored person before will definitely think differently about it, though.

I wanted to elaborate on point 3, but I'm feeling a bit under the weather. Hope I made my point of view clear enough that it won't cause misunderstandings.

 

[Chuckie]

Like I said, you only seem to counter people in here that say Zwarte Piet is racist and not the other way around. That's all I was pointing out.

No I am only discussing this with you, not other people. And I haven´t even stated if I think it is racist or not.

Fact is the only thing I said is that it SEEMS that by far the most black people in Holland are not offended by it.

For me it is clear that Zwarte Piet clearly represents or is a charicature of a Moor. I don't believe the black is from a chimney, or at least not alone from that. The red lips and afro kind of prove that. The person of Zwarte Piet did change over time.
Children now are taught that the black does come from the chimney. He is not stupid, nor is he a slave. Kids love him, more than Sinterklaas actually.

I am discussing if the fact that this has a racist background is offending to a lot of people.
IF thats the case (thats why I thought a survey would be good) then the Dutch people need to reconsider that image. Drop the afro and red lips, and maybe make it look like its actually chimney shit on his face, not a total black skin.

For me there is a difference between something having a racist history and something that till this day is still offensive. However considering I am not the group concerned, it is not for me to decide.

The Proboscis monkey, called by Indonesians The Dutchman because he's white and has a huge nose.
Racist? Probably. Do I care... no not really

 

[Particle Physicist]

No I am only discussing this with you, not other people. And I haven´t even stated if I think it is racist or not.

And I am a person who says it has racist undertones.

Fact is the only thing I said is that it SEEMS that by far the most black people in Holland are not offended by it.

Yeah, and the only thing I said was that we have black Dutch right here in this very thread who view it as racist, as well as the black Dutch in the video. We can see here in this very thread their opinion. Non of this, 'well it seems like they don't care,' or 'they've told me it's all cool.' You, and others in here are dismissing their opinions and viewpoints that they have displayed in this very thread.

For me it is clear that Zwarte Piet clearly represents or is a charicature of a Moor. I don't believe the black is from a chimney, or at least not alone from that. The red lips and afro kind of prove that. The person of Zwarte Piet did change over time.
Children now are taught that the black does come from the chimney. He is not stupid, nor is he a slave. Kids love him, more than Sinterklaas actually.

I am discussing if the fact that this has a racist background is offending to a lot of people.
IF thats the case (thats why I thought a survey would be good) then the Dutch people need to reconsider that image. Drop the afro and red lips, and maybe make it look like its actually chimney shit on his face, not a total black skin.

For me there is a difference between something having a racist history and something that till this day is still offensive. However considering I am not the group concerned, it is not for me to decide.

http://completeborneo.com/images/monkey.jpg
The Proboscis monkey, called by Indonesians The Dutchman because he's white and has a huge nose.
Racist? Probably. Do I care... no not really

That name is a bit racist, yes... but do Indonesians have a large history of oppressing the Dutch? How do the Dutch living in Indonesia feel about it? You don't care, because you are so far removed from it, that it does not affect you at all. The same cannot be said about Black Pete.

 

[Always-honest]

Of course not, who would want to identify themselves with black petes?

I mean they are not offended by the colour.

Personally, i think it's racist. The way it is used now, it's not intended in that way however. They might just as wel have been green or blue.

 

[hertog]

Just don't put the "zwarte piet" in the spotlight and just let them be a part of a tradition for children.

People forget that children adore the zwarte pieten, they are funny, bring gifts and they are acrobatic. For me they're more like the smurfs or elves, as in a whole race on it's own.