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Curaçao: Racist Dutch cop humiliated anti-Zwarte Piet protesters
- Thread starter Kabouter
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Arjen said:
Firstly... Do those kids who are the ones that piets are being defended for understand the spoof/satire?
Secondly Satire is a tool used to expose vices in society. For the most part Satire is just an exaggeration on a person's/group view or the truth.
Local Nederlanders in this thread are saying things that they suggest that they never once thought of Piets as slaves or second class citizens..
But then... when you take a look at something that they probably have seen on national television... Then you start to wonder... Are they lieing to you? or themselves?
Chuckie
Member
quadriplegicjon said:
You might think that is bullshit, but that is the reason the mayor and the police issued the ban. Take it up with them if you don't agree with it.
quadriplegicjon said:
Wow, you took that out of a post earlier. How the hell should I know you were referring to that.
I made that remark because someone toke anecdotal evidence that coloured people don't like the tradition because of 1 black dutch gaffer and a couple of protesters. I then questioned if that represented the coloured people because I saw loads of black people at the celebration who didn't mind.
I even said that was also anecdotal and that I would love a survey among the Dutch people if the Zwarte Pieten were considered racist or not.
I am merely telling what I observed, that most people (coloured and white) in Holland really don't give a fuck and enjoy the celebrations. Therefor I said I'd like to see a survey to find out what people really think.
RamzaIsCool
The Amiga Brotherhood
I have lived my whole life in Holland. But because of my Turkish origin we never really celebrated Sinterklaas at home. I did all the things surrounding Sinterklaas at primary school tho. Including the buying gifts for each other coupled with poems. I think in Holland it's bigger then Christmass and it's something people really care about. That's why people tend to be very defensive when it comes to certain aspects of the thing. Even if it's rascist as hell, which the zwarte piet thing is, people here will justify it becuase it's tradition. Something that has been this way generation upon generation. And if you ask me I don't see it changing soon, so we will have our annual zwarte piet threads for many years to come.
Pand said:
I wonder though. I've been watching the European and specifically the Northern European version of integration, which seems to be 'as long as you don't rock the boat or try to change us or our culture, and if you accept everything to properly fit in, we'll accept you'. So integrated persons of colour I would think may be disinclined, by practice, from challenging such things.
What if one were to speak up, and suddenly the neighbors think you're critical of their culture, and critical of them?
...and shit yeah I do remember ignoring this thread last year..wtf is wrong with me?
Oh man European racism truly is the gift that keeps on giving. You bring up Racist Claus or better yet Gypsies and all that smugness and holier than thou attitude vanishes, just to be replaced with logical fallacies and an infantile view of racism. Not to mention the childish petulance.
methane47 said:
Awesome, being called a liar over the internet by someone why apparently has more insight in my psyche then I do myself. Guess there's a first for everything. Thanks for enlightening me
akira28 said:
Unfortunately it's not 'rocking the boat' that's problematic. Extremes are not speaking Dutch, thus placing yourself out of the job-market and relying on welfare. Being extremely agressive to gays. Refusing to shake hands with women, because they are inferior. Being detached from the original culture and having a hard time fitting in here, with a lack of an authority figure as a consequence.
HUGE DISCLAIMER: I do not think all Muslims are like this, or even most. Just a very visible minority. These are extremes.
Particle Physicist
between a quark and a baryon
Tence said:
Of course that is the reason given... but do you honestly believe that? Are the minds of young Dutch children really that fragile, that one or two protesters (as you seem to think there would not have been more) would have blown the minds of the kids? Should we also be arresting anybody that tells a kid that Santa Claus is not real? Stop being intellectually dishonest here, please.
Tence said:
Because you based your opinion on an assumption you made, all the while deriding me for "assumptions" made.
Idde said:Awesome, being called a liar over the internet by someone why apparently has more insight in my psyche then I do myself. Guess there's a first for everything. Thanks for enlightening me
neorej said:
won·der
verb (used without object)
1.
to think or speculate curiously: to wonder about the origin of the solar system.
I'm Speculating whether or not some are lying.
I never claimed you were. But there are little hints suggesting that some may be.
Idde said:Awesome, being called a liar over the internet by someone why apparently has more insight in my psyche then I do myself. Guess there's a first for everything. Thanks for enlightening me
Unfortunately it's not 'rocking the boat' that's problematic. Extremes are not speaking Dutch, thus placing yourself out of the job-market. Being extremely agressive to gays. Refusing to shake hands with women, because they are inferior. Being detached from the original culture and having a hard time fitting in here, with a lack of an authority figure as a consequence.
HUGE DISCLAIMER: I do not think all Muslims are like this, or even most. Just a very visible minority. These are extremes.
Those things you listed equate to major rocking of the boat. It almost seems like...and I remember the earlier days of the recent immigration pushes, like it's a rejection of the previous integration philosophy. Instead they're forming cultural ghettos that have to be cracked, instead of being individuals integrating Dutch culture into their daily lives.
And if it was considered such a minor thing, the disclaimer wouldn't be needed. I think that people believe this all comes part in parcel with Muslim immigration. It becomes a Muslim problem when in reality it's a Dutch problem. And they say "Hey why don't you fix your problem?" And random muslim guy says "Problem? I have no problem. What's your problem?" And it goes on from there until someone tries to deliberately piss someone else off.
Particle Physicist
between a quark and a baryon
Pand said:
Maybe not white kids, but as our friend Tence stated, you cannot make generalizations like that. For instance, my mother when she was a young child used to rub baby powder on her skin in order to attempt to make it lighter. It horrified me when she jokingly mentioned this. I know the situation and circumstances are different, but the psyche of a child IS affected by their surroundings, how they are treated, how they see others that look like them being treated, etc. I know for a fact that my mother's experience is not remote, so I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss this as 'kids don't care.'
I work at a school with majority of them being from immigrant heritage. lots of black muslims etc.
And I never ever seen any of them nor their parents have any issue with the sinterklaas festivities nor did they ever see it as racism or were offended as such.
The only ones who are are the people not living in the Netherlands, not familiar with this tradition. And maybe a handful of Dutchies that are easily offended and cry foul at everything they think is even remotely racist or discriminating.
And I never ever seen any of them nor their parents have any issue with the sinterklaas festivities nor did they ever see it as racism or were offended as such.
The only ones who are are the people not living in the Netherlands, not familiar with this tradition. And maybe a handful of Dutchies that are easily offended and cry foul at everything they think is even remotely racist or discriminating.
Particle Physicist
between a quark and a baryon
Wazzim said:We don't like shoes at all, we roll with klompen man.
I thought those were only used for spontaneously large martial arts battles?
And it's not as simple as that either. I'm not saying blacks that "defend" it aren't genuine in their backing. Just saying maybe you should think about being a minority in an all white country full of people that get bent out of shape if you say their racist tradition is racist. Easier to not make waves for a minor indignity you only have to face once a year, than be the asshole black guy that just doesn't get it.Pand said:
I'm not even sure it has unflattering origins. Nicholas was the bishop of Myra, so he obviously had colored servants. That has nothing to do with the "superior white man enslaving black people" stereotype, though. Europa is not the US, we have a very different and far longer history. The Moors once conquered large parts of Europe, they're not seen as inherently inferior or as slaves or something.Furoba said:
Blackface makeup is also common in Europe when we're celebrating Epiphany. Is that racist? I really don't think so. One of the three wise men was black, and we don't have enough black people to portray that part, so we have to resort to makeup. What other options do we have? We could either not celebrate Epiphany at all, or just omit the black king. But honestly: That would be really racist (not to mention stupid) in my opinion.
Herbspiceguy
Member
I think it's important to know for people outside the Netherlands that even though the appearance of zwarte piet is (partially) based on the old 'negro' stereotype of slave heritage, zwarte pieten in today's celebration of Sinterklaas do not act uneducated & subservient.
They are presented as witty, sometimes mischievous, very positive 'helpers' of Sinterklaas who communicate normally without a foreign accent.
They are presented as witty, sometimes mischievous, very positive 'helpers' of Sinterklaas who communicate normally without a foreign accent.
akira28 said:
Yes and? There is always someone who is opposed to something, and in this case allot of the time the ones offended are not even blacks, but just whites. Some pople just take political correctness to the extreme and ruin it for the genuine people who fight racism. Most of whom don't have any beef whatsoever with his tradition.
Herbspiceguy
Member
Dali said:
What do you mean?
People in the Netherlands do not think Zwarte Piet is an issue.
The tradition of Zwarte Piet is non-existant outside of the Netherlands.
People outside of the Netherlands are only confronted with the Zwarte Piet if they look for it themselves.
Why is this still a problem to GAF.
The tradition of Zwarte Piet is non-existant outside of the Netherlands.
People outside of the Netherlands are only confronted with the Zwarte Piet if they look for it themselves.
Why is this still a problem to GAF.
I'd call Zwarte Piet racist even after reading their origins. I mean blackening their faces are one thing, but wearing afro wigs etc. and "speaking in a Surinamese accent" does without a doubt seem to have racist undertones. I am also disgusted by the way the cop keeps kneeing that protester in the spine. It's hilarious how Europe often lectures other countries and religious groups about freedom of speech, while beating those who make non-violent protests in their own country.
Particle Physicist
between a quark and a baryon
Tijnisch said:
Well, there are some Dutch gaffers here that have problems with it. And so does the Dutch guy in the video that is being arrested for wearing a t-shirt.
Herbspicesoy said:
How come we have so much conflicting information on so much about the Black Petes. Some people say it's not black skin, it's just dirt/dust from chimney sweeps, some say it is black skin, but it's not racist... Some Dutch gaffers have mentioned that they speak in a Caribbean-dutch accent, other emphasize that they communicate without a foreign accent. It's really bizarre.
quadriplegicjon said:
What I meant was that kids don't care if the Black Piets are changed into something else, it's only the adults who, for nostalgic reasons, don't want to change anything about it. I fully agree that imagery like that can influence young minds. I just don't think a lot of people are aware of it.
I'm all for changing the tradition. It won't happen soon, though, it's too ingrained into the public consciousness.
blame space
Banned
why don't we just stop lying to kids?
Particle Physicist
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Pand said:
Oh, yeah. Sorry, I misunderstood you.
They want to preserve their traditions, what their ancestors, whom they love, did. Unfortunately, that sometimes means they defend the bad with the good. Who wants to admit that what they did for so long could be wrong in any way. No one was hurt, etc. How about this. Get an actual black Dutchman...no, that idea's to forward thinking for this age. Perhaps after 2012, the next wave of humanity can seal this break.
cobragt4001 said:
The people who conquered Spain in the 8th century, and subsequently came to be called Moors by Europeans, were not the same people you're describing here. Look at people in Morrocco, Tunisia, Algeri etc, do they look black to you? They're Berber and Arabs.
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