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[Ducarmel]

Not to interject as though I know anything about the Dutch (or at least anything that Kabouter hasn't linked me over the last several years), but would you really consider North Africans to be "not black"?

Maybe it's my North American background, and maybe I sound very insensitive by saying this, but if someone were to ask me if Egyptians / Moroccans / Tunisians are generally "black", I'd probably say yes. Maybe I'd say "Middle Eastern" or maybe "Brown", but I would probably include anti-North African racism as being "anti-Black racism". *shrugs* I guess it really is just a semantic distinction

North Africa is so intermixed with centuries of changes/conflicts in culture and ethnicity its hard to really just say they are Black, White, or Arab.

 

[Stumpokapow]

That's not semantics, it's ignorance because you deny them their own cultural differences, and not just the color of the skin. The racism and hate between blacks/north Africans over here is definitely something unique tho

I primarily view culture in a national/historical context so it's not likely I'm committing ignorance. Certainly I think there's a rich diversity, culturally and historically, between Tunisian and Moroccans and sub-saharan Africans and between my province and the province next to it. I am absolutely not trying to blend it together or sort of anonymize all Africans into one "black" group or whatever.

I'm just saying when someone says "There's no anti-Black racism [in the Netherlands]" and then follows up with "Just anti-North African", that to me seems contradictory... I dunno, would people say that "Black" only counts for sub-Saharan Africans in this context?

 

[Fusebox]

And here I was thinking black was just a skin colour.

 

[IceCold]

I can see why people would see this as being racist but it seems to me that the Dutch removed the racial connection of the Zarta Piets. I don't have a problem with this as long as they are not used as a way to mock black people.


By the way are people here also also against the flag of Sardinia?

Or European coat of arms that depict moors such as this:

Évora, Portugal

More here: http://www.taneter.org/moorsheads.html

 

[2San]

I primarily view culture in a national/historical context so it's not likely I'm committing ignorance. Certainly I think there's a rich diversity, culturally and historically, between Tunisian and Moroccans and sub-saharan Africans and between my province and the province next to it. I am absolutely not trying to blend it together or sort of anonymize all Africans into one "black" group or whatever.

I'm just saying when someone says "There's no anti-Black racism [in the Netherlands]" and then follows up with "Just anti-North African", that to me seems contradictory... I dunno, would people say that "Black" only counts for sub-Saharan Africans in this context?

The original post you quoted wasn't about "North Africans" but about Moroccans and Turks. The vast majority of Moroccans and Turks for that matter that live in the Netherlands have a skin color similar to the pic I posted. The anti-sentiment against Turks is a lot less compared to that against Moroccans. I'd say Moroccans and the Antillians(SP? those from the Netherlands Antilles) which is a group that's actually black for the most part get the most "hate".

I'd say the vast majority of anti-sentiment against certain sub-groups is more culturally/religiously motivated rather than racial. The crime statistics seems to get mentioned a lot when people go on pretty (borderline)racist rants.

 

[Nemo]

I primarily view culture in a national/historical context so it's not likely I'm committing ignorance. Certainly I think there's a rich diversity, culturally and historically, between Tunisian and Moroccans and sub-saharan Africans and between my province and the province next to it. I am absolutely not trying to blend it together or sort of anonymize all Africans into one "black" group or whatever.

Okay, I can understand this

I'm just saying when someone says "There's no anti-Black racism [in the Netherlands]" and then follows up with "Just anti-North African", that to me seems contradictory... I dunno, would people say that "Black" only counts for sub-Saharan Africans in this context?

It would take some time to explain how everything works, and I'm probably not the best person to convey it via English text but the short version is that with anti-black racism over here it's usually concerning the people from countries in the Antilles and nearby. Because of the Dutch history with these countries you mostly have them over here instead of sub-Saharan people, so black people from Africa are usually not mentioned because of the much lower numbers, but definitely included. There is definitely anti-black racism over here, although to a lessened extent than with north-African people (and I'll include Turks in here as well for the sake of color vs color racism), I feel. Each group has slightly altering reasons for hate (it'd certainly be interesting to study most of them and then compare each reason with each group), but to the basic racist's mind it just that they're foreign and fucking things up over here for the natives.

 

[Big Baybee]

 

[methane47]

I can see why people would see this as being racist but it seems to me that the Dutch removed the racial connection of the Zarta Piets. I don't have a problem with this as long as they are not used as a way to mock black people.

Oh they removed the racial connection?

Can people then also remove the racial connection from the word "nig*er"?
Can people then also remove the sexual orientation connection from the word "fag*ot"?

How does that work exactly?

If Dutch people are not mocking black people... why do they black their face and speak with a Caribbean dutch accent?

WHO are they mocking then?

If I'm with my friends and I put on a cowboy hat and speak with a texan accent... I AM MOCKING A TEXAN....

It doesn't make sense that some people are claiming otherwise.

 

[2San]

If Dutch people are not mocking black people... why do they black their face and speak with a Caribbean dutch accent?

Not defending the whole zwarte piet thing, but they don't talk in an accent.

 

[Fusebox]

If Dutch people are not mocking black people... why do they black their face

Paying homage?

 

[methane47]

Paying homage?

True... Highest form of flattery is imitation right?

 

[Terrell]

Oh they removed the racial connection?

Can people then also remove the racial connection from the word "nig*er"?
Can people then also remove the sexual orientation connection from the word "fag*ot"?

How does that work exactly?

If Dutch people are not mocking black people... why do they black their face and speak with a Caribbean dutch accent?

WHO are they mocking then?

If I'm with my friends and I put on a cowboy hat and speak with a texan accent... I AM MOCKING A TEXAN....

It doesn't make sense that some people are claiming otherwise.

mock/mäk/
Verb:
Tease or laugh at in a scornful or contemptuous manner.
Adjective:
Not authentic or real, but without the intention to deceive.
Noun:
An object of derision.


Someone needs an English lesson. I could take that it is deemed insensitive in a global culture where blackface holds negative connotations, but it's not quite MOCKING black people, let's get real.

 

[IceCold]

Oh they removed the racial connection?

Can people then also remove the racial connection from the word "nig*er"?
Can people then also remove the sexual orientation connection from the word "fag*ot"?

How does that work exactly?

If Dutch people are not mocking black people... why do they black their face and speak with a Caribbean dutch accent?

WHO are they mocking then?

If I'm with my friends and I put on a cowboy hat and speak with a texan accent... I AM MOCKING A TEXAN....

It doesn't make sense that some people are claiming otherwise.

Yes, with time words like nigger, faggot etc. can lose their discriminatory meanings. Languages evolves like that. Faggot means cigarettes in the UK, negro (nigger comes from this word) simply means the colour black in Portuguese/Spanish. In all depends on their usage. Just like the common use of the nigga in the media (rap music) has diminished to some extent the tabooness (sp?) of the word.

I can't speak for others, but when I look at a Zwarte Piet, I don't really see it as mocking black people because black people don't act/look like them. For one, as far as I am considered, nobody whether black or white dresses like them and it's not like the Zwarte Piet are walking stereotypes of the Moors. They are nothing like them. I'd guess I'd find it offensive if they were dressed in West African clothing and spoke using a stereotypical African accent or something. But I'm white so my opinion about this is moot.

 

[Timber]

Ik vind mensen die een probleem maken van zwarte piet de grootste racisten, de mensen die het gewoon als eeuwenoude (kinder)traditie zien juist niet.

 

[Fusebox]

Faggot means cigarettes in the UK,

You're thinking of fag, or a fag, I've never heard of anyone calling a cigarette a faggot.

 

[IceCold]

You're thinking of fag, or a fag, I've never heard of anyone calling a cigarette a faggot.

My bad. You're right. But I'm pretty sure that faggot is not a derogatory term in British English too.

 

[Timber]

My bad. You're right. But I'm pretty sure that faggot is not a derogatory term in British English too.

pretty damn sure!

 

[Particle Physicist]

The problem is the constant surrendering to politically correct, easily-offended crybabies. "But but it has it's origins in racism boohoo". No one gives a fuck about the racist origins, those meanings have been lost for decades, grow some goddamn balls.

The world would be a better place if weak-minded people would stop being so OFFENDED by everything. Put the time into fighting real injustice in the world like maybe, I don't know, the modern day exploitation of Africa? Animal cruelty? Discrimination against gay people? Children forced into slave labor?

It's ironic too sinds the Netherlands is probably the most tolerant country in the world.

Yeah, how dare people be offended by a caricature are a racial group! People should be angry about other things... like muuuuurder!!!

Yes you are right. It doesn't matter for children. But personally for me I think: "go fuck yourself hypersensitive jack ass, not my problem, don't bother me with your nonsense". And I think this because to me the whole Zwarte Pieten doesn't have a racial connection. If anything Zwarte Piet is a positive and righteous character to children.

Just because you are ignorant of the racial connotations, doesn't mean it's not there.

 

[Terrell]

You're thinking of fag, or a fag, I've never heard of anyone calling a cigarette a faggot.

It's derived from the same root word (which technically still holds that colloquial meaning in Britain, hence their use of alternative derogatory terms) and the full derogatory term is typically truncated in the same fashion.

 

[Particle Physicist]

What I got from this thread is:

GAF: This 'tradition' is racist and offensive. What the fuck.

White Dutch Gaffers: lol we don't care.



http://static.tumblr.com/shh9znz/Mnzlit5ni/edward_norton_computer.gif

Edited in the bolded. Black Dutch Gaffers find it racist as well.

 

[Particle Physicist]

My mum is Dutch, I have photos of her in the full Black Pete outfit. She isn't racist.

That's all I got.

I think this is the problem with this thread, and the whole Black Pete thing. When people call the character racist, the Dutch (white) seem to think people are calling them racist. I assume that is why they get so defensive. We aren't calling every Dutch person that has participated in the tradition as racist, but the character has racial origins and should be modified in such a way as to try to erase those origins (like the multicolored Petes)

 

[Sickboy007]

Thanksgiving plays and celebrations featuring Native Americans are racist and should be altered.

 

[Particle Physicist]

I can see why people would see this as being racist but it seems to me that the Dutch removed the racial connection of the Zarta Piets. I don't have a problem with this as long as they are not used as a way to mock black people.


By the way are people here also also against the flag of Sardinia?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped..._RAS.svg/800px-Bandiera_ufficiale_RAS.svg.png

Or European coat of arms that depict moors such as this:

Évora, Portugal

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a9/EVR.png

More here: http://www.taneter.org/moorsheads.html

Do those look like caricatures? Big red lips, gerry curls/afros, always happy, looking to please the good white folk? Because there should be your answer. Compair those depictions with this:

If you can't see the difference, I don't know what else to say.

 

[Particle Physicist]

Thanksgiving plays and celebrations featuring Native Americans are racist and should be altered.

Yes, they can be, and in many instances they have been.

 

[Furoba]

Some people almost seem to imply Zwarte Piet has a racist influence over Dutch / Flemish children.

Sure, you need to be open and receptive to racial sensitivities, but local folklore isn't universal. I can understand why (black) Americans might feel very uncomfortable. but this isn't anything like blackface.

 

[CrunchyB]

When people call the character racist, the Dutch (white) seem to think people are calling them racist.

Ok, but defending the practice can be seen as a racist act. The reason emotions get high is because some people want to mess with a tradition.

My stance on this: It's not an intentionally hurtful, so it is not racist. If support drops, the concept of Zwarte Piet willl gradually disappear. Otherwise it will remain a part of Dutch culture. People who whine should grow the fuck up and do something constructive instead. Seriously.

 

[Particle Physicist]

Some people almost seem to imply Zwarte Piet has a racist influence over Dutch / Flemish children.

Sure, you need to be open and receptive to racial sensitivities, but local folklore isn't universal. I can understand why (black) Americans might feel very uncomfortable. but this isn't anything like blackface.

Black Dutch in this thread, and in the original video (where the guy was being manhandled by police officers) also find it offensive.

Ok, but defending the practice can be seen as a racist act. The reason emotions get high is because some people want to mess with a tradition.

My stance on this: It's not an intentionally hurtful, so it is not racist. If support drops, the concept of Zwarte Piet will gradually disappear. Otherwise it will remain a part of Dutch culture. People who whine should grow the fuck up and do something constructive instead. Seriously.

I'm sorry, but the bolded I have problems with. Just because something is not intentionally hurtful, does not mean it is not racist.

 

[Timber]

Ok, but defending the practice can be seen as a racist act. The reason emotions get high is because some people want to mess with a tradition.

My stance on this: It's not an intentionally hurtful, so it is not racist. If support drops, the concept of Zwarte Piet willl gradually disappear. Otherwise it will remain a part of Dutch culture. People who whine should grow the fuck up and do something constructive instead. Seriously.

ophouden met je zielige instelling anders ga je maar ergens anders heen waar je wel je bek houd.. waarschijnlijk is dat je eigen land want daar worden je handen eraf gehakt als je iets verkeerd doet. dus ik zal maar blij zijn dat je hier bent als ik jou was

 

[CrunchyB]

I'm sorry, but the bolded I have problems with. Just because something is not intentionally hurtful, does not mean it is not racist.

Sure, it would fall under the broad definition of racism, but that's not very helpful. Dressing up as Sinterklaas would be racist too. Against catholics, against people who can't grow beards, against white people. So, to me it's not racist if it was not designed to hurt someone and does not actively deprive someone of something tangible.

ophouden met je zielige instelling anders ga je maar ergens anders heen waar je wel je bek houd.. waarschijnlijk is dat je eigen land want daar worden je handen eraf gehakt als je iets verkeerd doet. dus ik zal maar blij zijn dat je hier bent als ik jou was

We speak english in this forum.

 

[Ela Hadrun]

Thanksgiving plays and celebrations featuring Native Americans are racist and should be altered.

Yes!

And Columbus Day should be changed to Indigenous Peoples Day. Because fuck that asshole, too.

Do you think the American Whites in this thread are going to say that Native caricatures are a treasured tradition?

Wednesday Addams Thanksgiving for me, thanks.

 

[rezuth]

ophouden met je zielige instelling anders ga je maar ergens anders heen waar je wel je bek houd.. waarschijnlijk is dat je eigen land want daar worden je handen eraf gehakt als je iets verkeerd doet. dus ik zal maar blij zijn dat je hier bent als ik jou was

I would watch it so you don't get banned for that shit talking. At least you have now shown everyone that you are an insensitive moron.

However I would like to add that I find this racist and there is no need for it to be that way either. People talk about tradition like it would always be a good thing but guess what people? Tradition is not a holy fucking thing, it sometimes even keeps us from advancing as a civilization.

 

[Fusebox]

It's derived from the same root word (which technically still holds that colloquial meaning in Britain, hence their use of alternative derogatory terms) and the full derogatory term is typically truncated in the same fashion.

The root word is irrelevant as it has no bearing on everyday usage.

The point is, "Give me a fag" means "Give me a cigarette" in the UK and Australia.

"Give us a faggot" does not mean "Give me a cigarette" in any country I've ever heard of.

 

[MorisUkunRasik]

Tradition is never a good reason to continue to do something.

 

[Fusebox]

Non-racist people don't see the world in colours...

 

[methane47]

The following video simply shows the lovable Piet... One that the dutch children love so much and would never have any ill will or intentions towards them or think of them as lessor people.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2H6SXaWxuo

And yeah no association between piets and people piets are modeled off of.

lol

 

[Particle Physicist]

Sure, it would fall under the broad definition of racism, but that's not very helpful. Dressing up as Sinterklaas would be racist too. Against catholics, against people who can't grow beards, against white people.[/] So, to me it's not racist if it was not designed to hurt someone and does not actively deprive someone of something tangible.

Huh? How so. I don't think you understand what racism is.

We speak english in this forum.

Hey, I didn't say that!!

 

[Terrell]

The root word is irrelevant as it has no bearing on everyday usage.

The point is, "Give me a fag" means "Give me a cigarette" in the UK and Australia.

"Give us a faggot" does not mean "Give me a cigarette" in any country I've ever heard of.

As you missed in my previous statement, that is because the full word has been depreciated in modern usage. How it was used more than 50 years ago is left to historians and those who were alive to tell the tale. "Faggot" in Britain still retains some of its colloquial definition as "cigarette", but the full word is not used anymore in common parlance, as "faggot" is also used as the term for a kind of meatball there.

 

[Fusebox]

Wait, so you're saying people in Britain did actually use the word "Faggot" to mean a cigarette?

 

[Kabouter]

Apparently. Do you mind giving me some examples? Around here in Amsterdam the racism I encounter is mostly aimed at Morrocans en Turks. I really thought racism against black people died out in the late eighties, a while after the Molukse kapingen.

I've heard people casually use terms like 'stinkneger' (smelly negro), seen people judge black people purely on the basis of their skin colour, say that African countries are in trouble because they're run by black people etc.

Black Dutch in this thread, and in the original video (where the guy was being manhandled by police officers) also find it offensive.

Eh, I'm white, and I certainly understand why having an offensive black caricature be a part of a national celebration is a terrible idea.

 

[Particle Physicist]

Eh, I'm white, and I certainly understand why having an offensive black caricature be a part of a national celebration is a terrible idea.

Sorry, what I meant by that comment is that the very ethnic/racial group that is being depicted is actually offended by the caricature, hence why it is a racist caricature.

 

[Kabouter]

Sorry, what I meant by that comment is that the very ethnic/racial group that is being depicted is actually offended by the caricature, hence why it is a racist caricature.

Was actually more intended towards your earlier post where you said that white Dutch GAF is saying 'we don't care'.

 

[Particle Physicist]

Was actually more intended towards your earlier post where you said that white Dutch GAF is saying 'we don't care'.

Oh, yeah.. sorry. I thought about removing that, or I should have put a winky face at least. I was just being facetious there.

 

[confused]

I read in the Metro the other day that Dutch retail is expecting a 500 million euro surge over the sinterklaas period.

I declare that to be an illegal ammount of money.

 

[MWS Natural]

Err eehh your hair starts to look afroish if you don't wash it? Red lips so you can tell who has had a kiss from a female Piet or something something NOT RACIST

LOL PERFECT.

 

[neorej]

This thread reads like a Community-episode...

 

[Kabouter]

This thread reads like a Community-episode...

Looking forward to the final few posts in the thread then, always the best.

 

[Veidt]

I'm not dutch, so this whole tradition seems silly to me. But, that said - Blackface isn't inheretly racist, it's racist because of historical cnotation. In countries without this kind of history, blackface doesn't have to racist. For example, if someone did blackface in my country, at worst no one would even know what the fuck he's trying to do, because there's conotation at all of blackface around here. I imagine the situation is about the same for dutch people.

The cop in the video was definitley an asshole though.

You forget that Holland was almost the slave capital of the world at one point. Whereas Israel has no history of the same sort.

As a Dutch citizen, I also find Zwarte Piet to be a racist concept.

edit:

http://i.imgur.com/0Voa3l.jpg[IMG][/QUOTE]

pepernoten zijn lekker.

 

[FStop7]

You forget that Holland was almost the slave capital of the world at one point. Whereas Israel has no history of the same sort.

As a Dutch citizen, I also find Zwarte Piet to be a racist concept.

edit: pepernoten zijn lekker.

I was just about to mention the Dutch slave trade, the colonization of Africa, apartheid, etc...

Zwarte Piet is racist as fuck and should be outlawed. Deal with it.

 

[wsippel]

"Its ok became they're representing good black people who take care of an older white gentlemen."

But why are they explicitly black again?

Because Nicholas was the bishop of Myra in Lycia.

 

[Terrell]

Wait, so you're saying people in Britain did actually use the word "Faggot" to mean a cigarette?

A very long time ago, yes.