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[wsippel]

Have you no Italians? (Honestly, I've been playing Indians for years. You can just get anyone, really.)

We do! We get white people and paint them black!

And no, we don't have all that many Italians either. Not to mention Italians aren't black to begin with, so yeah... blackface. No way around it I'm afraid.

 

[Alucrid]

Man. The way all some of Dutch-gaf is getting their panties in a bunch over the claim that this is racist makes you kinda think that it is actually racist.

 

[akira28]

We do! We get white people and paint them black!

And no, we don't have all that many Italians either. Not to mention Italians aren't black to begin with, so yeah... blackface. No way around it I'm afraid.

I suppose..they must be told apart. I don't suppose wearing different colored big hats is enough...

I don't think I'm capable of understanding really.

 

[wsippel]

I suppose..they must be told apart. I don't suppose wearing different colored big hats is enough...

I don't think I'm capable of understanding really.

What's so hard to understand? Assuming you'd use some symbol, like a hat, wouldn't that be actually racist? You'd be substituting skin color, ethnicity and cultural background, for some random symbol? Nobody would know the guy wearing the, say, green hat was supposed to be black after a while. He'd be seen as "the white guy wearing the green hat" instead of "the wise black man from the east".

It's a depiction. Someone plays a role. The guy he depicts is black. Does that mean the actor needs to be black? Should we rewrite history if we can't find a black actor? Honestly, that's like saying white artists drawing black people are racist by default.

 

[akira28]

Been doing it too long. No one can take it from them, they'll have to give it up. That's it.

 

[Particle Physicist]

What's so hard to understand? Assuming you'd use some symbol, like a hat, wouldn't that be actually racist? You'd be substituting skin color, ethnicity and cultural background, for some random symbol? Nobody would know the guy wearing the, say, green hat was supposed to be black after a while. He'd be seen as "the white guy wearing the green hat" instead of "the wise black man from the east".

It's a depiction. Someone plays a role. The guy he depicts is black. Does that mean the actor needs to be black? Should we rewrite history if we can't find a black actor? Honestly, that's like saying white artists drawing black people are racist by default.

Out of curiosity, how is the blackface for that? Is it like Black Pete? Extremely dark skin (black people aren't actually black), big red lips, big afros, etc? Is there a picture you can show us? I can't seem to find one online.

EDIT

This is from Spain, but is it like this:

Compare that with Black Pete:

 

[Shanadeus]

That looks a bit racist.

 

[IceCold]

The people who conquered Spain in the 8th century, and subsequently came to be called Moors by Europeans, were not the same people you're describing here. Look at people in Morrocco, Tunisia, Algeri etc, do they look black to you? They're Berber and Arabs.

Strictly speaking Moors are Muslims from the Maghreb. With time it became pretty much synonyms with Muslims. Most of the initial Moors who conquered Spain/Portugal were actually Berbers. The minority, the upper class, were Arabs. After a while, In Al-Andalus, the majority of Muslim population were actually converted natives from Portugal and Spain. So many of the Muslims that Spain and Portugal kicked out when the Reconquista ended were actually European.

 

[Furoba]

 

[wsippel]

Out of curiosity, how is the blackface for that? Is it like Black Pete? Extremely dark skin (black people aren't actually black), big red lips, big afros, etc? Is there a picture you can show us? I can't seem to find one online.

Heavily varies. The term you'd want to search for would be "Sternsinger". And yes, the three wise men are usually played by kids, often acolytes. It's a tradition ranging back to the 16th century. They go from door to door and collect money for charity, typically projects to support children in third world countries.

 

[Terrell]

Question to offended Americans who claim it's offensive due to psychological conditioning of children:

Do you feel that our Santa traditions of elf workers, who are often depicted in child-like forms or by little people, promotes child slavery via imagery or subconsciously belittles (sorry, pun unintended) little people?

If you don't, you're being hypocritical.

That is all.

 

[Shanadeus]

Question to offended Americans who claim it's offensive due to psychological conditioning of children:

Do you feel that our Santa traditions of elf workers, who are often depicted in child-like forms or by little people, promotes child slavery via imagery or subconsciously belittles (sorry, pun unintended) little people?

If you don't, you're being hypocritical.

That is all.

That's a terrible comparison.

 

[Terrell]

That's a terrible comparison.

How so? Please, I'd like to hear.

 

[AtomskEater]

How so? Please, I'd like to hear.

Elves and midgets are not children, nor are they meant to be parodies or caricatures of children would be my guess.

 

[Terrell]

Elves and midgets are not children, nor are they meant to be parodies or caricatures of children would be my guess.

Never mind the Santa Clause movie franchise and its direct use of children to play elves...
Those aren't PARODIES of children. Take away the clothes and the ears and those ARE children.

My point has not been addressed, but your attempts to misdirect the discussion fascinate me. The discussion of whether depictions of elvish children or little people as elves and their role as thankless laborers to Santa Claus can't be seen as of equal psychological impact when they are depicted as child laborers in the case of child depictions or as lesser creatures compared to the full-sized North Pole denizens, of which there are only 1 or 2 depending on who you ask, in the case of portrayal by those with dwarfism.

 

[Ela Hadrun]

How so? Please, I'd like to hear.

Well, there was never institutionalized slavery of little people or children for one.

(There was child labor, yes, but it was never a thing where 99% of a society's children were slaves.)

 

[Terrell]

Well, there was never institutionalized slavery of little people or children for one.

(There was child labor, yes, but it was never a thing where 99% of a society's children were slaves.)

Imagine you're a child in the Netherlands right now. Do you think you'd even KNOW there was institutionalized slavery in your country? No. So take that out of the equation when you talk about subconscious effects, because a child has no knowledge to frame what they see that way and thus this supposed subconscious programming argument is questionable at best.

I'm not arguing for the Zwarte Piet by any means, but if we're going to do it, let's not give any wiggle room with things like subconscious programming of children.

 

[Pandaman]

the real shock here is that Moors are apparently black.

 

[ElectricBlue187]

That looks a bit racist.

Wow that looks remarkably like Mr. Po Po from DBZ sans turbin

 

[Particle Physicist]

Heavily varies. The term you'd want to search for would be "Sternsinger". And yes, the three wise men are usually played by kids, often acolytes. It's a tradition ranging back to the 16th century. They go from door to door and collect money for charity, typically projects to support children in third world countries.

Okay, looked up some pictures. So in my opinion, the defense that people are throwing around in here for Black Pete would be way more appropriate for Sternsinger. The character has black face-paint, but he is not a caricature. He is dressed just the the other two wise-men, but with black face paint. He is also looked at as an equal with the other two wise-men instead of a servant, like Black Pete. So to me, the situations are quite different.

 

[neorej]

Wow that looks remarkably like Mr. Po Po from DBZ sans turbin

OMG DBZ IS RACIST!

 

[Chuckie]

Of course that is the reason given... but do you honestly believe that? Are the minds of young Dutch children really that fragile, that one or two protesters (as you seem to think there would not have been more) would have blown the minds of the kids? Should we also be arresting anybody that tells a kid that Santa Claus is not real? Stop being intellectually dishonest here, please.

I seem to think there wouldn't have been more because protests during Sinterklaas aren't a big thing. I can't even remember it ever happening before. Yes there have been protests about Zwarte Piet, but not by protesters among the waiting children.

I never ever stated this issue could not be discussed or that people aren't allowed to protest it, just leave the kids alone. Go to the parliament and raise the issue or protest there.

Because you based your opinion on an assumption you made, all the while deriding me for "assumptions" made.

No I did not. I said I had anecdotal evidence which differed from the anecdotal evidence provided in a thread and that I would like to know the real feelings of the Dutch people trough a survey. How the fuck is that making an assumption?

And now I am done with it. I now know better to ever enter a thread about Zwarte Piet on GAF again.

 

[Arjen]

Man. The way all some of Dutch-gaf is getting their panties in a bunch over the claim that this is racist makes you kinda think that it is actually racist.

You really think it's weird we're getting defensive over this?
This thread is baciscly people coming in and saying:
"Hey guys, you know that holiday you loved as a kid? That's pretty racist and evil, and you should feel bad for liking and enjoying it"

 

[neorej]

Demonstrating that Zwarte Piet is racist during the Sinterklaas-parade is basically the same as walking into a elementary school and saying that Santa Claus is an obese evil man who exploits children;

You may have a point, but do you really WANT to make that point in front of children who consider the man a hero?

 

[methane47]

Demonstrating that Zwarte Piet is racist during the Sinterklaas-parade is basically the same as walking into a elementary school and saying that Santa Claus is an obese evil man who exploits children;

You may have a point, but do you really WANT to make that point in front of children who consider the man a hero?

Santa clause is obese yes, but has never been depicted as being less of a man for it. Santa also has never been depicted as someone who exploits children. The santa claus legend is largely unchanged and has never been offensive to anyone ever.

SinterKlaas used to be depicted as a person who conquered devils who were in the form of black people, enslaved them to do his bidding, children were made to be afraid of them if they were bad because they would either beat them or steal them away to Spain.

Many people say to me that this is how the tradition used to be but its not like that any more. The thing is that some of these ideas still exist today in the minds of some dutch. As evidenced by the Sketch comedy I linked to earlier of the dutch family having a zwarte piet that was like a slave for them. If the idea that zwarte piet as slaves didn't exist then this sketch comedy skit would not exist. That is simply one instance of the ideas of old making it into society today. Who knows what others there are. Also despite things changing dramatically, zwarte piet are still to this day shown as lessor than the White guy who gets to ride the horse.

Kids make associations all the time.
Kids in America still to this day have some sort of understanding that people of dark complexion are lessor. **LINK**
CNN Study Link (another great example) (This is part 3 of 8 of a documentary but really everyone should watch every part of this documentary)
And That is without having this sort of tradition which enforces that idea. Who knows what kids in Holland think?

We are just asking that the tradition simply be made more sensitive to the malleable minds that its targeting. Instead of having ONLY black piets why not let zwarte piet be any color or a range of colors. Or maybe mix up the hair. Its really the clothes that make the Piet anyways.

 

[2San]

Santa clause is obese yes, but has never been depicted as being less of a man for it. Santa also has never been depicted as someone who exploits children. The santa claus legend is largely unchanged and has never been offensive to anyone ever.

SinterKlaas used to be depicted as a person who conquered devils who were in the form of black people, enslaved them to do his bidding, children were made to be afraid of them if they were bad because they would either beat them or steal them away to Spain.

Many people say to me that this is how the tradition used to be but its not like that any more. The thing is that some of these ideas still exist today in the minds of some dutch. As evidenced by the Sketch comedy I linked to earlier of the dutch family having a zwarte piet that was like a slave for them. If the idea that zwarte piet as slaves didn't exist then this sketch comedy skit would not exist. That is simply one instance of the ideas of old making it into society today. Who knows what others there are. Also despite things changing dramatically, zwarte piet are still to this day shown as lessor than the White guy who gets to ride the horse.

Kids make associations all the time. Kids in America still to this day have some sort of understanding that people of dark complexion are lessor. **LINK** And That is without having this sort of tradition which enforces that idea. Who knows what kids in Holland think?

We are just asking that the tradition simply be made more sensitive to the malleable minds that its targeting. Instead of having ONLY black piets why not let zwarte piet be any color or a range of colors. Or maybe mix up the hair. Its really the clothes that make the Piet anyways.

You do know that Santa Claus is Sinter Klaas introduced to the US market by coca cola to market their products with.

 

[Alucrid]

You really think it's weird we're getting defensive over this?
This thread is baciscly people coming in and saying:
"Hey guys, you know that holiday you loved as a kid? That's pretty racist and evil, and you should feel bad for liking and enjoying it"

So your enjoyment of this holiday, and the holiday itself solely depends on Santa's helpers being black?

Also, elves are mythical creatures. They're portraying mythical creatures when they dress up as elves, if you can show me something to prove that zwarte piet are actually mythical beings and not representations of people of color, then go for it.

You do know that Santa Claus is Sinter Klaas introduced to the US market by coca cola to market their products with.

You do realize that the idea of Santa Claus existed before Coke started to use him in their advertisements in the 30s, right? Coke didn't introduce that to us, they just further popularized him.

 

[2San]

You do realize that the idea of Santa Claus existed before Coke started to use him in their advertisements in the 30s, right?

Yeah Santa Claus=Sinter Klaas that's the whole point I'm making.

 

[methane47]

You do know that Santa Claus is Sinter Klaas introduced to the US market by coca cola to market their products with.

Santa Claus and Sinterklaas are both based on the same figure but Santa Claus was not an evolution of Sinterklaas

Kind of like if I was to say Jesus = Horus.
Or if I was to say Abraham (bible) = Brahma (Hindu)
Or if I was to say God (Christian) = God (Muslim)

You can argue they may be based on similar things or ideas or even people. But to suggest they are one and the same is inaccurate.

 

[2San]

Santa Claus and Sinterklaas are both based on the same figure but Santa Claus was not an evolution of Sinterklaas

It is.

 

[Alucrid]

Yeah Santa Claus=Sinter Klaas that's the whole point I'm making.

Not really. He's more like a combination of many different figures from that season, i.e. Old Saint Nick, Father Christmas, Sinter Klaas, etc.

 

[Blackace]

Question to offended Americans who claim it's offensive due to psychological conditioning of children:

Do you feel that our Santa traditions of elf workers, who are often depicted in child-like forms or by little people, promotes child slavery via imagery or subconsciously belittles (sorry, pun unintended) little people?

If you don't, you're being hypocritical.

That is all.

I'm glad that's all..

 

[2San]

Not really. He's more like a combination of many different figures from that season, i.e. Old Saint Nick, Father Christmas, Sinter Klaas, etc.

Yeah so we really aren't talking about a legend, but a character based on Sinter Klaas and other characters. Old Saint Nick=Sinter Klaas aka Sint Nicolaas. Most of the Santa Clause story is based on Sinter Klaas.

 

[Alucrid]

Yeah so we really aren't talking about a legend, but a character based Sinter Klaas and other characters. Old Saint Nick=Sinter Klaas aka Sint Nicolaas. Most of the Santa Clause story is based on Sinter Klaas.

I don't get why you're trying to argue that Sinter Klaas and Santa Claus are one in the same. Sure, they're based off the same historical figure, but that hardly means they're the exact same thing.

 

[Arjen]

So your enjoyment of this holiday, and the holiday itself solely depends on Santa's helpers being black?

No...where on earth did you get that from?
I'm explaining why i'm being so defensive about people jumping in and screaming that the holiday is so racist.

methane47 does a great job and explaining how and why he is against, and how he want's to see it changed. I guess having different colored pieten could work, the fact that it's about the clothing is a very good point.

 

[Alucrid]

No...where on earth did you get that from?
I'm explaining why i'm being so defensive about people jumping in and screaming that the holiday is so racist.

methane47 does a great job and explaining how and why he is against, and how he want's to see it changed. I guess having different colored pieten could work, the fact that it's about the clothing is a very good point.

Well to be honest I haven't really heard any good arguments about why it should be kept. Got tradition, it's only soot, they're helpful black people, but the kids don't see it that way so it doesn't matter, stop ruining out holiday, etc.

 

[Always-honest]

Dordrecht de gekste!!!

By the way, most people in The Netherlads, including the black people don't think de Zwarte Pieten are offensive. Most seem to think they are black from delevering gifts through the chimney.

 

[2San]

I don't get why you're trying to argue that Sinter Klaas and Santa Claus are one in the same. Sure, they're based off the same historical figure, but that hardly means they're the exact same thing.

They are not based on the same historical figure. Santa Clause is directly based on Sinter Klaas. Methane47's said "The santa claus legend is largely unchanged and has never been offensive to anyone ever." Which is clearly false there is no Santa Clause legend. Only the Sinter Klaas one. If Santa Clause has a "legend" it's because it's based on Sinter Klaas. You started arguing schematics, I just replied.

Well to be honest I haven't really heard any good arguments about why it should be kept. Got tradition, it's only soot, they're helpful black people, but the kids don't see it that way so it doesn't matter, stop ruining out holiday, etc.

We could just change them into friendly little elves and be done with it no?

 

[Always-honest]

We could just change them into friendly little elves and be done with it no?

So now we're gonna base Sinterklaas traditions on Santa Claus nonsense?

 

[2San]

So now we're gonna base Sinterklaas traditions on Santa Claus nonsense?

So it comes full circle.

 

[Always-honest]

So it comes full circle.

haha, well whatever keeps the economy going.

 

[Arjen]

Well to be honest I haven't really heard any good arguments about why it should be kept. Got tradition, it's only soot, they're helpful black people, but the kids don't see it that way so it doesn't matter, stop ruining out holiday, etc.

They might not be good enough reasons for you, but changing tradition is a really big deal to a lot of people.

 

[methane47]

They might not be good enough reasons for you, but changing tradition is a really big deal to a lot of people.

Changing Tradition is a big deal to a alot of people ... Very true

Devils - Changed
Slaves - Changed
Kidnappers - Changed
Beat kids - Changed
Surinamese accent - Changed
Stupid - Changed
Black - WOAH WOAH WOAH.. JUST WAIT ONE GOD DAMNED MINUTE HERE... We should CHERISH our traditions!

lol

 

[Arjen]

Changing Tradition is a big deal to a alot of people ... Very true

Devils - Changed
Slaves - Changed
Kidnappers - Changed
Beat kids - Changed
Surinamese accent - Changed
Stupid - Changed
Black - WOAH WOAH WOAH.. JUST WAIT ONE GOD DAMNED MINUTE HERE... We should CHERISH our traditions!

lol

Yeah i'm sure al those changes came overnight to. Come on.

 

[methane47]

Yeah i'm sure al those changes came overnight to. Come on.

Well I'm just saying Nothing will change until people become open to change. First step is admitting there is a problem.

 

[neorej]

Well I'm just saying Nothing will change until people become open to change. First step is admitting there is a problem.

The only ones who are having a problem with Zwarte Pieten are non-Dutch and douchebags who see racism everywhere, including in a jar of peanutbutter. I don't see why it should change.

 

[Alucrid]

They are not based on the same historical figure. Santa Clause is directly based on Sinter Klaas. Methane47's said "The santa claus legend is largely unchanged and has never been offensive to anyone ever." Which is clearly false there is no Santa Clause legend. Only the Sinter Klaas one. If Santa Clause has a "legend" it's because it's based on Sinter Klaas. You started arguing schematics, I just replied.

We could just change them into friendly little elves and be done with it no?

Not really. You could read wikipedia and see you're wrong. Then again you seem toto think that santa clause was invent by coca cola.

Whatever though. Your sinterklaas is just odin in a christian disguise.

 

[Always-honest]

Well I'm just saying Nothing will change until people become open to change. First step is admitting there is a problem.

There is no problem. There are people LOOKING for problems though.
Again, even the black people in The Netherlands don't identify themselves with zwarte pieten.
I don't think they're even supposed to BE black people in the first place. Most people think the black on the faces is soot (i don't believe it's as simple as that).

Edit: and i couldn't care less if the whole fucking tradition got canned in favout of: let's-give-our-kids-some-gifts-day

 

[Alucrid]

There is no problem. There are people LOOKING for problems though.
Again, even the black people in The Netherlands don't identify themselves with zwarte pieten.
I don't think they're even supposed to BE black people in the first place. Most people think the black on the faces is soot (i don't believe it's as simple as that).

Edit: and i couldn't care less if the whole fucking tradition got canned in favout of: let's-give-our-kids-some-gifts-day

Of course not, who would want to identify themselves with black petes?

 

[Blackace]

OMG DBZ IS RACIST!

Mr PoPo is offensive as fuck....