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[Socreges]

We have this thread every year. Always a good time.

I can understand why Dutch people are defensive about this. They think that if the tradition is considered racist, then that means they must be racist as well. I don't think that's true, but people are bound to make that (unfair) inference.

I just think the Dutch need to drop it. Let it go. It's a product of a racist era-gone-by, no matter how positively you can frame it.

BUT THE KIDS! IT'S FOR THE KIDS!

Sure. But they'll survive without it.

 

[neorej]

I'd like to suggest the next Piet:

 

[Horseticuffs]

I am one holiday-lovin' son of a bitch. As an Atheist, white, American dude I think it's awesome as hell to extend any Christmas/Santa related shenanigans as long as possible. My wife and I just found a local radio station already playing 24-hour Christmas music and I was excited as a kid, to show how much I love the holidays.

Heck, I love that many countries have such different holiday traditions. I've raised my kids to (not seriously) believe that if they were bad that the Krampus was going to steal them away in a sack and beat them with a stick.

That being said, I'm not Dutch by any means and don't feel comfortable saying what their society should or shouldn't do. To my understanding the Netherlands is quite a bit more racially homogenous than the U.S. so I imagine I'm coming from a different place on the matter than your average Dutchman would.

I just, from my perspective, think it's always best if we can try to avoid making people feel marginalized or lessened. Even if "we" don't really understand why a harmless tradition that is beloved by so many might have such negative connotations for others, I think those who are not offended should try to trust that those who are are coming from a different perspective and aren't just out to be whiny titty-babies trying to ruin everyone else's good times.

It's the holidays, people. It's about good times an' shit. I'm not saying we need to hold bullshit Southpark-style generic "Winter Festivals" in order not to potentially offend anyone, but it would be nice if everyone was able to enjoy the camaraderie and glad tidings this time of year is, ostensibly, supposed to represent.

Now everyone hug and go watch "Christmas in Hollis" on Youtube, dammit...

 

[Chuckie]

Sorry, what I meant by that comment is that the very ethnic/racial group that is being depicted is actually offended by the caricature, hence why it is a racist caricature.

Maybe, but I don't know if one Gaffer and two protesters are really representative of the whole black community in Holland.

Sinterklaas and his Pieten were in the city last week and I saw loads of black parents with black kids dressed up as black petes, just like I saw loads of white parents with white kids dressed up as black petes (the kids that is, not the parents). I know this is also just anecdotal though.

It would actually be interesting to do a survey in Holland to see what percentage of coloured people think it is racist and what percentage of white people do.

 

[neorej]

Maybe, but I don't know if one Gaffer and two protesters are really representative of the whole black community in Holland.

Sinterklaas and his Pieten were in the city last week and I saw loads of black parents with black kids dressed up as black petes, just like I saw loads of white parents with white kids dressed up as black petes (the kids that is, not the parents). I know this is also just anecdotal though.

It would actually be interesting to do a survey in Holland to see what percentage of coloured people think it is racist and what percentage of white people do.

Did they wear black facepaint though?

 

[hiro4]

Every year it is the same shit again like clock work.

For me it is a festivity which is part of our culture. Not once have I thought that this is racist.

I can understand that people who haven't grown up with this can find it racist. But this is a national holiday which people of all races celebrate. There is nothing better then following the sinterklaas journaal with your kids and see the crazy situations of the Zwarte Pieten. And the climax of watching sinterklaas arrive safely is just great. It is a festivity for everybody young and old.

To me people who are familiar with the festivity and are still complaining are just butt hurt probably because they were naughty when they were young and didn't get any presents.

Even if it is racist I hope this will continue forever. If that makes me a racist fine. I just want my Zwarte Pieten.

 

[Chuckie]

Did they wear black facepaint though?

No, but neither did the white kids.

In college I did have a Javanese friend from Suriname who played a black pete on university, she did wear black facepaint.

 

[Furoba]

We have this thread every year. Always a good time.

I can understand why Dutch people are defensive about this. They think that if the tradition is considered racist, then that means they must be racist as well. I don't think that's true, but people are bound to make that (unfair) inference.

I just think the Dutch need to drop it. Let it go. It's a product of a racist era-gone-by, no matter how positively you can frame it.

BUT THE KIDS! IT'S FOR THE KIDS!

Sure. But they'll survive without it.

I don't think any of the locals regard Sinterklaas as something racist. Sure, it may have unflattering origins, but it holds only a positive meaning now.

Dropping Zwarte Piet is similar to saying, well Santa's obese so you should make him slim (aside from the racist accusations).

 

[neorej]

No, but neither did the white kids.

In college I did have a Javanese friend from Suriname who played a black pete on university, she did wear black facepaint.

I wasn't serious

OT:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Jb5whMrK30 --> look at all those racist bastards! Even black people are joining in the ceremonial racism disguised as a children's festivity!

 

[SmokyDave]

Huh, this thread went pretty well this year. That's progress.

I hope Stridone was banned for something outside of this thread.

 

[Walshicus]

Not to interject as though I know anything about the Dutch (or at least anything that Kabouter hasn't linked me over the last several years), but would you really consider North Africans to be "not black"?

Maybe it's my North American background, and maybe I sound very insensitive by saying this, but if someone were to ask me if Egyptians / Moroccans / Tunisians are generally "black", I'd probably say yes. Maybe I'd say "Middle Eastern" or maybe "Brown", but I would probably include anti-North African racism as being "anti-Black racism". *shrugs* I guess it really is just a semantic distinction

I don't think many people here would think of North African/Maghrebis as "black". Clearly they're Caucasian.

 

[Deleted member 1235]

You forget that Holland was almost the slave capital of the world at one point. Whereas Israel has no history of the same sort.

As a Dutch citizen, I also find Zwarte Piet to be a racist concept.

my understanding was that they were traders but not users (as in no slaves in holland).

nitpicking I know, but clarity and all that.

NZ born dutch resident here. I'm sort of amused/horrified by zwarte piet. Being from a UK colony which went through the whole 'ban the gollywog' and other related blackface stuff it's pretty weird to see it alive and kicking here.

However, I doesn't really SEEM racist as far as I can tell from how the citizens actually view it. I don't necessarily hold to the idea that something with racist roots is racist now (jury is still out though)

I didn't think the police treatment was anything to especially freak out about though, I've seen people being packed off by the cops before and that seems about how a physical arrest goes.

 

[soepje]

I do think the origin of the black petes is quite racist. When i was a kid in the late 80ies they clearly spoke with an accent that is similar with people from the Netherlands Antilles. Not anymore though, they changed that over the years. They also got smarter. Their clothes however originate from a whole different part of the world. Black pete is a mix, influenced by a lot of things. This is why i don't think its racist per se anymore.
As a kid i never mistaken a black person for a black pete, and i don't think there are much, if any, kids that do.

It's probably also just handy to have a pete to be black because otherwise kids will recognize their uncle too easily. We dutch are known to be cheap ( i don't know if that's true ) and its cheaper to buy some face paint then to hire outside help to act as a pete .

 

[Kabouter]

my understanding was that they were traders but not users (as in no slaves in holland).

I think there were a few people who had slaves as staff, but certainly nothing on a large scale. Far and away the most slaves went to Brazil and the Caribbean.

 

[soepje]

my understanding was that they were traders but not users (as in no slaves in holland).

We had slaves work for us on our colonies.

 

[Idde]

I wasn't serious

OT:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Jb5whMrK30 --> look at all those racist bastards! Even black people are joining in the ceremonial racism disguised as a children's festivity!

Yep. And just look at those three black racist Dutch cops I counted in the video. This reminds me of the negerzoenen fiasco here in Holland. When they were to be banned I actually asked twelve black people if they cared about the negerzoen. One thought it was insensitive. The rest didn't mind or care. (still highly anecdotal) Think I'm gonna do the same for Zwarte Pieten.

 

[Chuckie]

Yep. And just look at those three black racist Dutch cops I counted in the video. This reminds me of the negerzoenen fiasco here in Holland. When they were to be banned I actually asked twelve black people if they cared about the negerzoen. One thought it was insensitive. The rest didn't mind or care. (still highly anecdotal) Think I'm gonna do the same for Zwarte Pieten.

That negerzoenen crap was a marketing-stunt from Buys, the producer of the things

 

[Arjen]

Awesome, the yearly Sinterklaas thread, *grabs pepernoten*

 

[confused]

Awesome, the yearly Sinterklaas thread, *grabs pepernoten*

Yeah, I keep grabbing myself by the "pepernoten" , too.

 

[Roi]

Zwarte Piet
THEODOR HOLMAN

Hoe erg moet je gekwetst zijn om tijdens de feestelijke intocht van Sint Nicolaas tegen racisme te demonstreren op het Leidseplein, waar honderden kinderen op de goedheilig man en zijn pietermannen wachten?

Ikzelf heb in mijn jeugd alleen maar heel domme Pieten gezien, die krom spraken, je in de zak stopten als je iets slechts had gedaan, en voor het schoolbord het antwoord niet wisten op de vraag: 'Piet, hoeveel is één plus één?'

'Dat is drie, Sinterklaas.' Hilariteit.

Ik durf te zweren dat ik noch mijn klasgenootjes daar in hun latere leven racistische gedachten aan hebben overgehouden. Eigenlijk ken ik niemand die, als ze op latere leeftijd een neger zagen, zeiden: 'Tja, het is een Zwarte Piet; die zal waarschijnlijk niet weten hoeveel één plus één is.'

Goed, die zullen er ongetwijfeld zijn. Maar dan nóg. Zijn er echt zwarten die, als ze een Piet zien, in zo'n rare pofbroek en met zo'n hoedje met een veer, zich zwaar beledigd en gekwetst voelen? Wat voelen ze dan? Wilt u mij dat mailen? Ik weet het niet.

Bent u gekwetst omdat een relatie wordt gelegd tussen zwart en dom? Dat heb ik eigenlijk sinds mijn kindertijd nooit meer gezien of gehoord, maar stel dat het zo is, dan nóg zie ik de generalisering niet. Zwarte Pieten zijn misschien dom, maar zwarten toch niet?

Het zou hetzelfde zijn als vrouwen zich verzetten tegen heksen in sprookjes omdat heksen in sprookjes altijd vrouwen zijn. En altijd slecht. Sterker: vrouwen worden zelfs uitgescholden voor heks! Weg met die sprookjes!

Zo zit het, dacht ik, ook met Zwarte Piet. Die intocht is volkstoneel dat we elk jaar opvoeren. Die Zwarte Pieten hebben bij mijn weten nooit echt bestaan. Ik, als atheïst, neem het de burgemeester van Amsterdam toch ook niet kwalijk dat hij de scheiding tussen kerk en staat met voeten treedt door de goedheilig man in zijn stad uitgebreid welkom te heten? ('En dat moet de belastingbetaler zeker allemaal betalen, mijnheer de burgemeester! Laat de kerk dat doen!')

Wie tijdens de intocht van de Sint tegen racisme demonstreert, is dus eigenlijk zelf iemand die in Sinterklaas gelooft. Zo iemand vind ik nog veel dommer dan de domste Zwarte Piet.

.

 

[Particle Physicist]

Maybe, but I don't know if one Gaffer and two protesters are really representative of the whole black community in Holland.

Sinterklaas and his Pieten were in the city last week and I saw loads of black parents with black kids dressed up as black petes, just like I saw loads of white parents with white kids dressed up as black petes (the kids that is, not the parents). I know this is also just anecdotal though.

It would actually be interesting to do a survey in Holland to see what percentage of coloured people think it is racist and what percentage of white people do.

Well, the town thought there would be a decent amount of protesters which is why they a banned them. So we already know that it's more than just a handleful of people.... and then there is the historical basis of the character

 

[Rocket Scientist]

.

That is a piece of shit article. Not surprising given the author. People who believe that portraying stereotypes of groups of people has no subconscious effect on childrens' world views are morons. The fact that it's a tradition aimed at children who are still developing their world views makes it worse, not innocent. I don't even care about the holiday itself though. I love seeing the hypocrites try and defend something so ridiculously improper.

 

[Nemo]

Awesome, the yearly Sinterklaas thread, *grabs pepernoten*

Chocolate covered mix or bust

 

[Bitmap Frogs]

Huh, this thread went pretty well this year. That's progress.

I hope Stridone was banned for something outside of this thread.

Yeah. Usually our yearly zwarte piet thread turns out into a battleground with the corpses of banned members laying on the ground.

 

[Chuckie]

Well, the town thought there would be a decent amount of protesters which is why they a banned them. So we already know that it's more than just a handleful of people.... and then there is the historical basis of the character

Wow, you are making a lot of assumptions here.

The fact that they banned it doesn't mean they expect a lot. Nor do we 'know' there are more than a handful. The banning on protesting is both to protect children and to keep the 'fairytale' alive. Mind you, the kids actually believe there is some 400 year old guy giving them presents. To make sure this isn't ruined by protesters or simply people trolling the kids the police is extra vigilant.
The thought behind it is: A discussion about Zwarte Piet is good, but not during the childrens moment.

There is indeed the historical basis, you are right about that.

 

[Roi]

That is a piece of shit article. Not surprising given the author. People who believe that portraying stereotypes of groups of people has no subconscious effect on childrens' world views are morons. The fact that it's a tradition aimed at children who are still developing their world views makes it worse, not innocent. I don't even care about the holiday itself though. I love seeing the hypocrites try and defend something so ridiculously improper.

I think children don't even notice the skin color of people.
Zwarte Piet isn't a slave, they're young helpers of a old man. How is that giving a wrong example to children?

 

[Cerebral Assassin]

A very long time ago, yes.

Any evidence for that? I only know of the meatball & the bundle of twigs being called a faggot.

Also why do we have this thread every year, but never have a Darkie Day thread?

 

[Particle Physicist]

Wow, you are making a lot of assumptions here.

The fact that they banned it doesn't mean they expect a lot. Nor do we 'know' there are more than a handful. The banning on protesting is both to protect children and to keep the 'fairytale' alive. Mind you, the kids actually believe there is some 400 year old guy giving them presents. To make sure this isn't ruined by protesters or simply people trolling the kids the police is extra vigilant.
The thought behind it is: A discussion about Zwarte Piet is good, but not during the childrens moment.

There is indeed the historical basis, you are right about that.

It means they expected a significant amount that would cause a disturbance, else why ban them? Of course there are some black folks that have enjoyed the celebrations, so clearly black Pete has no racial connotations at all.

 

[Azih]

I think children don't even notice the skin color of people.

They do.

Zwarte Piet isn't a slave,

They were.

they're young helpers of a old man. How is that giving a wrong example to children?

White guy in charge, black underlings. THAT'S THE WAY THE WORLD WORKS, SON.

In any case a lot of defenders are pointing out that kids don't really care. If that's the case then why not change the freaking tradition? Kids will continue not to care and just as the bullshit ethnic accents the Zwarte Piet used to affect disappeared (why was THAT part of the tradition dropped huh?) so will the idiotic blackface.

Maybe it isn't about the kids at all but instead the nostalgia of adults.

 

[Chuckie]

It means they expected a significant amount that would cause a disturbance, else why ban them?

No it means the took precautions to easily stop disturbances, no matter what size. One person can be enough to ruin it for a lot of kids.

Of course there are some black folks that have enjoyed the celebrations, so clearly black Pete has no racial connotations at all.

Lol... I am not saying that. Again.. quit making assumptions please.

 

[Particle Physicist]

I think children don't even notice the skin color of people.
Zwarte Piet isn't a slave, they're young helpers of a old man. How is that giving a wrong example to children?

Children do notice the skin color of people. Not necessarily overtly, but they do subconsciously. There are several studies on the subject. In one, young black girls consistently say that blue eyed, blond white women are pretty princesses but not good looking black women. The kids never really give a real answer as to why.

 

[Particle Physicist]

No it means the took precautions to easily stop disturbances, no matter what size. One person can be enough to ruin it for a lot of kids.




Lol... I am not saying that. Again.. quit making assumptions please.

The kids excuse is such bullshit. One person may destroy the feeble minds of our children! Lets ban all protesters even though we only expect one, maybe two!! And so what exactly did you mean about the black people you saw enjoying the celebrations? And why do other posters assumptions about them not bother you?

 

[Azih]

The kids excuse is such bullshit. One person may destroy the feeble minds of our children! Lets ban all protesters even though we only expect ine, maybe two!! And my other comment has to do with other posters in here, and how you don't seem to have an issue with their assumptions and comments

It's not "Won't somebody please think about the children" It's "Won't somebody please think of my childhood memories"

 

[OmegaDragon]

.

So Zwarte Pieten, that look like a stereotype of black people, are being portrayed as dumb. But nobody should be offended by it, because adults know Zwarte Pieten aren't real?

Btw, I found the title to be a bit confusing, I first thought the incident happened on Curacao

 

[Arjen]

I'm curious. Question for the people who are against.
What do you want?
You want us to stop celebrating Sinterklaas?
You want to make the zwarte pieten white?

 

[Azih]

I'm curious. Question for the people who are against.
What do you want?
You want us to stop celebrating Sinterklaas?
You want to make the zwarte pieten white?

The rainbow pieten sounded like a great idea.

 

[Kabouter]

I'm curious. Question for the people who are against.
What do you want?
You want us to stop celebrating Sinterklaas?
You want to make the zwarte pieten white?

I want the concept of Zwarte Piet to change, just like it did when they stopped being racist stereotypes in terms of behaviour. And I agree with Azih, Rainbow Pieten wasn't such a bad idea.

Edit: I should note though, that I don't think this should be something forced upon people, this is something that will have to gradually change as attitudes change. Forcing anyone is just going to bring hate. People being aware that this is offensive to some would help a lot.

 

[Kurtofan]

I'm curious. Question for the people who are against.
What do you want?
You want us to stop celebrating Sinterklaas?
You want to make the zwarte pieten white?

You could just drop the afro, red lips and blackface make up.

 

[Opiate]

As someone who knows little about this tradition, I'm a little surprised by some of the argumentation in here. I'm going to avoid the actual specifics of the topic, and focus on the most common defense I've seen: that this is tradition.

How is this behavior made better or worse by the fact that it's a tradition? Its status as tradition likely makes it more difficult to remove the behavior from society -- that's a huge practical concern -- but at the moment, we're discussing whether Zwarte Piet is ethically right or wrong. First let's see if we can all agree that the behavior is wrong and should change, before we begin to decide on how to change it.

My opinion of Zwarte Piet is wholey unaffected by the fact that it's a tradition; I do no find the behavior to be morally better or worse simply because you've been doing it for decades or centuries. In fact, many traditions are clearly bad, like slavery (a tradition which still exists in many parts of the world) and whaling in places like Japan. Just because something is traditional doesn't magically make it more ethical or more kind. Similarly, it strikes me as silly to defend Zwarte Piet by saying "it's a tradition" -- defend Zwarte Piet on its own merits (and to their credit, some people have actually tried to do that in here), not because it's a tradition so it's therefore immune to ethical criticism of any kind.

 

[Arjen]

Honestly i think the views of people who judge the zwarte pieten only on what they read, are highly distorted. If you never experienced it in real life, you have no idea how they act, how they talk. etc. It's way to easy to be judgemental an scream zomg racism!!
On the other hand, i can totally imagine that it is being viewed as racism by others, and honestly i think it's pretty hard for me to say if and what needs to be changed. I see the problems some may have, but on the other hand i have so many great childhood memories about it, i don't want to see it change.

 

[soepje]

White guy in charge, black underlings. THAT'S THE WAY THE WORLD WORKS, SON.

So no white person is allowed to hire black people to work for him because that would be concidered racist?

 

[methane47]

You could just drop the afro, red lips and blackface make up.

Dont even need to drop it.. Simply dont mandate it.

So no white person is allowed to hire black people to work for him because that would be concidered racist?

White guy ONLY has black workers?

Because this is what kids might see on tv and then what would they think?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2H6SXaWxuo

 

[OmegaDragon]

White guy ONLY has black workers?

Because this is what kids might see on tv and then what would they think?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2H6SXaWxuo

http://youtu.be/1MANCnx_-dQ

 

[Shanadeus]

"Officers told them it is a festival for children, and that the texts on their shirts and banners weren't pleasant. Later that day they still sought a platform for their opinion." They had left the banner at home, but not the shirts, leading the police to intervene.

Soo... protests should be illegal whenever there is a child on the scene?

 

[MWS Natural]

Dont even need to drop it.. Simply dont mandate it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2H6SXaWxuo

Jesus.

 

[MrHicks]

the direct translation of "zwarte piet" is "black penis" lol
no idea what a "piet" is to be honest
an ancient word for servant/helper?


all my childhood never wondered about it lol

 

[Pand]

Translation of the article:

Black Piet

THEODOR HOLMAN

How badly offended do you have to be to protest against racism during the Sinterklaas parade on the Leidseplein, where hundreds of children are waiting for the saint and his piets?

I myself have only ever seen very dumb Piets in my youth, who talked funny, who put you in the bag if you had been bad, and who, standing in front of the black board, didn't know the answer to the question: 'Piet, how much is one plus one?'

'That's three, Sinterklaas'. Hilarity.

I swear that neither me nor my classmates got any racist ideas from that later in life. Actually I don't know anyone who, when they saw a black person later in life, said: 'Yeah, that's a Black Piet; he probably doesn't know how much one plus one equals.'

Okay, there undoubtedly are a few. But still. Are there really blacks who, when they see a Piet, wearing weird breeches and a hat with a feather, feel badly insulted and hurt? What are they feeling? Could you email that to me? I don't know.

Are you hurt because they make a connection between black and dumb? I haven't seen or heard that since my childhood days, but even if that's so, I still don't see the generalisation. Black Piets may be dumb, but surely blacks aren't?

It would be the same thing if women would protest against witches in fairy tales because witches in fairy tales are always women. And always evil. Worse: women even get called witches! Away with those fairy tales!

It's the same, I would think, with Black Piet. The parade is people's theatre we perform every year. The Black Piets have never really existed, as far as I know. I, an atheist, don't blame the mayor of Amsterdam that he's toeing the line of separation of church and state by welcoming the Saint to his city. ('And this of course has to be paid for by the taxpayers, mister mayor! Let the church pay for it!')

Those who protest against racism during the Saint's parade are really people who still believe in Sinterklaas themselves. People like that are in my estimation even dumber than the dumbest Black Piet.

I always enjoy these kinds of debates, being Dutch myself. It's weird to realize that something which has been part of your upbringing is so controversial in other countries. I get the controversy, and I think we should probably work towards changing the Black Piets to something else. Kids don't care at all, it's only the adults who have been brought up with this holiday who experience some serious cognitive dissonance when debating this and consequently balk at changing it. In their defence, I don't think there's anything inherently malicious about the tradition. That doesn't change the fact the image of a Black Piet is pretty offensive to anyone not familiar with the tradition.

 

[akira28]

my understanding was that they were traders but not users (as in no slaves in holland).

They had slaves in Holland and at Dutch colonies. I remember one of my alt-history classes in highschool/college they showed us pictures of Dutch punishments for bad slaves. They would stick a metal hook through your gut, and loop it around a rib or two, and they would suspend you from the ceiling, by your ribs, until you died.

Horrifying shit.

Also, there's a reason controversial traditions are protected by the people who cherish and held them for so long in the face of many others who disagree. There's always a bit of denial about the harmfulness, because of course they don't see it, and to see it would be to admit that they enjoyed something, cherished something offensive or harmful to others. Of course it has to be harmless. Has to be. They'd have to make a judgement about themselves, or have to accept that judgment made by others. No one wants to admit that mistake, so there will always be pushback.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

Just be completely honest about it:

"Yea, we know it's racist as fuck but to be honest...we just don't give a shit."

That's all. But stop with this "Oh but it's tradition" and "Oh no, that's only offensive to outsiders...no one is offended here where we're all white".

 

[Arjen]

Dont even need to drop it.. Simply dont mandate it.



White guy ONLY has black workers?

Because this is what kids might see on tv and then what would they think?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2H6SXaWxuo

You know that's a spoof and satrire right?