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[rocK`]

Controversial opinion ahoy.

ITT I am not talking about racists, people who make personal attacks or jabs or demeans someone for their race, gender or creed.

I also think this is more of a total reflection of society in general and online video games are just a subset of that - but hear me out.

TL;DR - we as gamers hide behind words like toxic, rage, tilt to avoid taking personal accountability, responsibility and most importantly, the ability to grow.

Right now, you can't go far in online gaming without seeing the word toxic being thrown around. It's used to describe someone who is actively creating an environment that lowers your teams chances of winning - usually through text or verbal engagement.

However, sometimes, the people who hide behind these words often view criticisms as attacks about one's game play, regardless of delivery.

So - this creates a "care bear" attitude where the only way to keep a win going is by falsifying praise, celebrating mediocrity and avoiding personal criticism. Often having an overly positive, non-reality grounded response of "It's ok guys, I know he's given up the past 10 deaths but it's fine! we can push through", which is certainly fine for the moment, but often not for any game after that, especially if the player is simply just not learning.

It is essentially the "participation ribbon" of online gaming and will ultimately lead to a more casual, non-confrontational or critical play.

Why is this bad?

For individuals, it's not that bad - they get instant gratification, play their games and move on. They live in a bubble where they are right and the rest of the world is just bullies - but it's certainly going to be an issue on a macro level, and we're seeing it with games becoming more and more casual with few rewards for those that are interested in being better at the game or focus on team based games.

This means that the chasm between 'pro player' and 'average player who wants to play competitively' becomes larger and larger.

Personally, I just fear the day when parents will be calling their teachers toxic because their kid got a C.

 

[GamerJM]

I've played games in a competitive setting quite a bit before, and I've never seen anyone tell someone else that they're being "toxic," for giving constructive criticism on their gameplay.

 

[Enter The 36 Chambers]

Who the hell do gaffers be playing online with

 

[Toxi]

ITT I am not talking about racists, people who make personal attacks or jabs or demeans someone for their race, gender or creed.

That's usually who people are referring to when they talk about the toxicity of competitive communities.

 

[benicillin]

It's not a controversial opinion, just a dumb one. I've never seen someone called toxic for offering actual constructive criticism or helping someone learn the game. And most people who are actively making the game worse for others are never called on it, which is why people give up on playing games competitively.

The 'participation award' thing? Really?

ultimately lead to a more casual, non-confrontational or critical play.

That sounds great, I don't play games to be confrontational or overly critical of others. If you want to get sweaty, form a full team of people who also want to do that.

 

[HStallion]

Who the hell do gaffers be playing online with

Gaffers

 

[Apharmd]

Thanks OP. This is a good thing to talk about.

IMO first and foremost? It's important to ascertain the reason as to why one is playing this competitive game and why one is playing it with their friends.

For me, if my friends are playing the game to hang out and have fun, then I'll ease off on the competitiveness and just take it easy. Maybe take the time to experiment with new characters. Sometimes they ask me how to do better and that's when we walk each other through how to improve.

The reason I'm so chill on this (or I strive to be chill) is because I'm running a very small, intimate scene that could barely qualify as one of a team game. I tried being a hardass and unintentionally slipped into toxic territory. Straight up just didn't work and I had to check myself because I saw some people (oh, and some told me) that they were just not having fun. I mean, forget everything else. At the end of the day, we play games because it's fun.

I'm not saying that out of a defeatist mindset either. I had to stop myself and others from that type of behavior because for me, the greatest and most productive improvements I've seen in myself and in others is when the players themselves seek to become better. It's a great feeling, not unlike Monster Hunter or Bloodborne where we find ourselves "leveling-up" in real life, especially in fighting games. Trying hard and achieving high placements and heck, winning in tournaments are super fun. But ultimately, self improvement and taking care of the community absolutely go hand in hand. Who cares if we win tournaments where the entries are single digits?

EDIT: And to make this even better, I am a bit sensitive and severely dislike toxic players. So yeah, I'm a hypocrite. Realizing this made me strive to be more aware of when I'm starting to get toxic myself or when I need to give myself a timeout from playing.

 

[rocK`]

It's not a controversial opinion, just a dumb one.
The 'participation award' thing? Really?

Stop being toxic.

^-- case in point

 

[Systolique]

What a weird post?

First of all I want to live in your world where games are full of "false" positivity and insincere praise, second I have never known a time where online gaming wasn't full of negativity.

Third and finally, this isn't a controversial opinion, just a nonsense one.

 

[benicillin]

Stop being toxic.

^-- case in point

It's not toxic, it's just constructive criticism. I don't want to diminish your personal accountability.

 

[B.O.O.M]

I've played games in a competitive setting quite a bit before, and I've never seen anyone tell someone else that they're being "toxic," for giving constructive criticism on their gameplay.

Exactly!

The whole premise of the OP is a mess.

Also another controversial opinion..maybe. Some people take the word 'competitive' way too seriously. It's still just a video game.

Another issue is sometimes these so called 'experts' 'pros' etc. are really not. For some reason they have this inflated view of themselves and think their advise is the gold standard and if others don't follow it, they are not being 'competitive' 'good teammates' 'throwing the game' etc. It'd be hilarious if it wasn't so sad.

In recent years, of the MP games I have played, I think Destiny had the best online community by far. Have fun, don't abuse each other if you are losing, if you lose, move on.

 

[crowphoenix]

I have never heard toxic being used to represent conditions that effect a team's chance at victory. I have only heard it used to describe situations and people that are rude, cruel, and uncomfortable to be around, which creates an overall experience of unpleasantness.

 

[rocK`]

It's not toxic, it's just constructive criticism. I don't want to diminish your personal accountability.

Right - I'm not hurt by your words because I take personal accountability.

I also think you are precisely the person I am talking about - given your edit and response - likely too sensitive and just wants a casual game environment without anyone giving you grief about your ability to play.

 

[capitalCORN]

Honestly, I've been online since QUAKE (1996). I've never seen the point you make be a point.

 

[Primus]

Right - I'm not hurt by your words because I take personal accountability.

I also think you are precisely the person I am talking about - given your edit and response - likely too sensitive and just wants a casual game environment without anyone giving you grief about your ability to play.

 

[rulerk1]

I see this happen alot in Overwatch whether im playing or watching streams. Someone offers constructive criticism and people will take it the wrong way. Its insane. It is toxic to blame others for death constantly tho

EDIt: you talking about shotcalling?

 

[benicillin]

Right - I'm not hurt by your words because I take personal accountability.

I also think you are precisely the person I am talking about - given your edit and response - likely too sensitive and just wants a casual game environment without anyone giving you grief about your ability to play.

I think it all started when I got a participation trophy for joining the basketball team in fourth grade.

 

[TissueBox]

Reminds me of that word violence topic a while back, and similarly, yeah people should be able to endure some harsh criticism particularly in a scene that's very... passionate about such things. That said there's a fine line between abuse that goes both ways -- abuse of that right to an enjoyable, pleasant, 'polite' experience, and abuse of words and spontaneous chat functions. It'll take a while before true balance is found, honestly, as the latter is often quite deeply rooted in the same sexism and raging-bro behavior that's alienated people from games culture and is typically perceived as needing a large overhaul.

 

[Systolique]

Like who do you think you are? At what point did you think you were good enough to give advice to people?

My experience is : get good at the game yourself and you'll climb ranks, I'm in very high elos in both Overwatch and League of Legends and you don't have to tell people how to play the game because they know what to do.

And I climbed there being good at the game, not by telling other players how to play.
Even if you were a master at some game, at what point do you have time to teach in depth mechanics while playing in game? You're making your team lose if you have time to chat so much.

You just look like a clear case of "my teammates are holding me back elohell xD" kind of person.

 

[rocK`]

I think it all started when I got a participation trophy for joining the basketball team in fourth grade.

You're a real winner! Life's always positive, every ones a winner!

 

[Apharmd]

...Wait, so am I the only one who thinks this is a good topic for discussion? Is my environment that unique?

 

[B.O.O.M]

I think it all started when I got a participation trophy for joining the basketball team in fourth grade.

Everything changed when the fire nation attacked tbqh

fuck them

 

[rocK`]

Reminds me of that word violence topic a while back, and similarly, yeah people should be able to endure some harsh criticism particularly in a scene that's very... passionate about such things. That said there's a fine line between abuse that goes both ways -- abuse of that right to an enjoyable, pleasant, 'polite' experience, and abuse of words and spontaneous chat functions. It'll take a while before true balance is found, honestly, as the latter is often quite deeply rooted in the same sexism and raging-bro behavior that's alienated people from games culture.

Great post - I think I'm trying to explore how fine that line is - what I'm trying to say is I think there's a default/reaction of receiving criticism, waving it away and not realizing that there's likely a nugget of learning there.

 

[Alucrid]

"It's ok guys, I know he's given up the past 10 deaths but it's fine! we can push through"

i mean i'd rather have my team not tilted and try to work around the bad player than have the bad player and a tilted team

 

[Nimby]

Depends on how you offer the criticism. I don't care whether this guy was right or wrong, that is taking a game too seriously.

Overwatch is literally in a position where players will argue over anything. Nothing good ever comes from a system that effectively rates your "dominance" over everyone else in the game. And IMO, the nature of Overwatch itself being team based game with the most important thing being the cooperation of your team and nothing else fuels this toxicity to an extreme level. It's hopeless because even if you are this god McCree or something, the best you can do is get 2-3 kills on an unaware enemy. You can't pull miracles in Overwatch regularly.

 

[rocK`]

Like who do you think you are? At what point did you think you were good enough to give advice to people?

My experience is : get good at the game yourself and you'll climb ranks, I'm in very high elos in both Overwatch and League of Legends and you don't have to tell people how to play the game because they know what to do.

And I climbed there being good at the game, not by telling other players how to play.
Even if you were a master at some game, at what point do you have time to teach in depth mechanics while playing in game? You're making your team lose if you have time to chat so much.

You just look like a clear case of "my teammates are holding me back elohell xD" kind of person.

Look at my avatar. I played street fighter competitively. In those games, there's no teammates to hold back.

Playing street fighter growing up taught me valuable lessons about being able to take feedback, have a thick skin and learn from your mistakes. Who cares about all the other shit they say - if there's something for you to learn and reflect on, why not take it?

I'm saying most people just run from it and hide from criticism.

Either way, I very much object to the 'who are you to tell someone how to play', that's such a neanderthal way of thinking. So close minded. I don't care who you are - if I'm in diamond and you're in bronze but you notice something, I want to hear it. It's up to me on whether I'm going to use it.

 

[LincolnTunnel]

I've never seen "Toxic" used in this sense online. Ever. It's usually used to refer to situations where someone is being purposely antagonistic or using personal attacks rather than engaging in actual conversation or criticism. It often utilizes sexist or racial slurs, many of which may have absolutely no relevance to the actual racial or sexual identity of whoever they're targeted towards. What you're talking about is something else, and it's not what people mean when they refer to online communities as being toxic.

 

[Felix Lighter]

I have never, in all my years of playing online MP experienced this:

So - this creates a "care bear" attitude where the only way to keep a win going is by falsifying praise, celebrating mediocrity and avoiding personal criticism. Often having an overly positive, non-reality grounded response of "It's ok guys, I know he's given up the past 10 deaths but it's fine! we can push through", which is certainly fine for the moment, but often not for any game after that, especially if the player is simply just not learning.

"Care bear" attitudes and participation awards ruining the world rhetoric doesn't ring true in my experience playing online. You fuck up, you hear about it and I haven't heard many people throwing around the word toxic when discussing "constructive criticism."

 

[Mman235]

Controversial opinion ahoy.

ITT I am not talking about racists, people who make personal attacks or jabs or demeans someone for their race, gender or creed.

So, not toxic people. The kind of people who lose it at constructive criticism (even if it's not that great or wrong) are pretty much always actually toxic assholes.

 

[Eppy Thatcher]

The problem with your idea here is assuming that anyone ever has considered toxic to mean anything other than what you excluded in your first post.

Racism, random hatred, sexism or pure passionate shitposting is what's toxic in these games. If every guy that talked to a girl playing overwatch said "what the fuck girlgamer5 you keep pushing too far and switch off torb there is literally no reason for him right now." No one would be talking about toxic attitudes in games.
"Suck my dick you stupid bitch but show me your boobs first lol" is more what they are talking about. Not exactly constructive criticism.

 

[Apharmd]

Look at my avatar. I played street fighter competitively. In those games, there's no teammates to hold back.

Playing street fighter growing up taught me valuable lessons about being able to take feedback, have a thick skin and learn from your mistakes. Who cares about all the other shit they say - if there's something for you to learn and reflect on, why not take it?

I'm saying most people just run from it and hide from criticism.

Either way, I very much object to the 'who are you to tell someone how to play', that's such a neanderthal way of thinking. So close minded. I don't care who you are - if I'm in diamond and you're in bronze but you notice something, I want to hear it. It's up to me on whether I'm going to use it.

I think that's a great mindset to be able to have a thick skin and learn from others' criticism, no matter how hurtful it is. At the same time though, I have to agree with the other people saying "who are you to tell someone how to play" if that someone doesn't want to hear it... yet. Unless they die in real life if they die in the game, you and I don't really have that right to force it on people, even if they're our teammates. We can try, but we'd be jerks. There is a boundary between pointlessly complimenting everyone and not being a douchebag.

 

[Ferr986]

Be polite when exposing criticism and no one will call you toxic. Be an ass (and call people "carebears") and you'll be called toxic.

 

[mcw]

This just sounds like the usual shit where someone who is a total asshole and doesn't have any empathy wants to continue being an asshole unchallenged and is willing to invest effort into shifting the blame on the people who call him out on it.

See: the Republican Party.

 

[Fixed2BeBroken]

Surprised to see so many people say "Ive never seen the word toxic" as that damn word is thrown around in Overwatch a TON, and over the smallest things.... even over things that arent even criticisms or hurtful comments.

 

[Wallach]

So - this creates a "care bear" attitude where the only way to keep a win going is by falsifying praise, celebrating mediocrity and avoiding personal criticism. Often having an overly positive, non-reality grounded response of "It's ok guys, I know he's given up the past 10 deaths but it's fine! we can push through", which is certainly fine for the moment, but often not for any game after that, especially if the player is simply just not learning.

in what universe is this happening even regularly in online gaming, much less often enough to be the predominant outcome

 

[Daeoc]

I have never, in all my years of playing online MP experienced this

It happens sometimes when someone on the team is being(or perceived as) very negative or rude towards someone who is doing bad on the team, a third person will come in and try to cover for the person who is doing bad, usually in an attempt to keep team morale high.

. . think I may be talking about something else. .

 

[Systolique]

Look at my avatar. I played street fighter competitively. In those games, there's no teammates to hold back.

Playing street fighter growing up taught me valuable lessons about being able to take feedback, have a thick skin and learn from your mistakes. Who cares about all the other shit they say - if there's something for you to learn and reflect on, why not take it?

Because people that tell you how to play are not master analysts years in the making, they are going to be wrong and say either stupid things or just plain broad statements that everybody already know of.
Your OP is showing examples of team-based games, of course 1v1 fighters are completely different.
If you want to waste your time writing essays to 9 or 11 other people every post-game be my guest.

Either way, I very much object to the 'who are you to tell someone how to play', that's such a neanderthal way of thinking. So close minded. I don't care who you are - if I'm in diamond and you're in bronze but you notice something, I want to hear it. It's up to me on whether I'm going to use it.

Please, you're fooling no one, first of all of course it matters. You'll never understand how to help someone play if you're in the same game as he is, if you really want to help people then get paid for spectating games and doing feedback.

Your whole point is just so silly and hypocrite, there'll never be something as infuriating as a random guy who thinks he's helping you by giving you mediocre advice, just build a team if you want to coach people

 

[Eridani]

Look at my avatar. I played street fighter competitively. In those games, there's no teammates to hold back.

Playing street fighter growing up taught me valuable lessons about being able to take feedback, have a thick skin and learn from your mistakes. Who cares about all the other shit they say - if there's something for you to learn and reflect on, why not take it?

I'm saying most people just run from it and hide from criticism.

Either way, I very much object to the 'who are you to tell someone how to play', that's such a neanderthal way of thinking. So close minded. I don't care who you are - if I'm in diamond and you're in bronze but you notice something, I want to hear it. It's up to me on whether I'm going to use it.

From my experience, 99% of the time the people offering "constructive feedback" don't have a clue what they are talking about. Here's a concrete, 100% real example from a Heroes of Newerth match:

At the start of the match I go mid with Plague Rider, a support hero that kind of sucks at that but hey, no one else wanted to do that so I do it. I get first blood within the first several minutes only to immediately be called all kind of insults. I keep playing really well, basically carrying the team and the insults continue. There's no feedback, no advice - except that I should apparently stop playing well. I then mute the guy and win the match.

Why the hell would I take advice from people like that? They clearly don't know what they are talking about and they offered no feedback or advice. And this wasn't an isolated incident either - MOBAs are full of people like this, and that's why the community's called toxic.

If I wanted advice, there's a ton of online guides I can look up. Guides made by people who actually know what they are talking about. Guides that actually help, and offer advice without screaming insults every 5 seconds. Taking advice from random people who can't go 5 minutes without exploding with rage is just about the worst way to learn the game there is.

 

[Messofanego]

What are these games with carebear and participation trophy cultures?

 

[Nimby]

Surprised to see so many people say "Ive never seen the word toxic" as that damn word is thrown around in Overwatch a TON, and over the smallest things.... even over things that arent even criticisms or hurtful comments.

Toxicity is really any irrational emotional behavior that is harmful to your teammates and the game as a whole. If your criticism involves screaming at the person at the top of your lungs, it is toxic. No one wants hear a grown man scream like he's 12.

 

[Kenai]

Ironically, more people would probably be more open to constructive criticism if the gaming community in general were less toxic. I remember this happening a whopping 1 time in a game my entire time online from randoms, and it was only after they started talking to me *after* they were afking at a fountain and I admitted i had no idea what I was doing (was LoL and I was Kayle and we were vs bots). And that was pretty harsh before I asked them what I should be doing instead of what I was doing, they could have easily just went "hey build this" instead.

Now combine that with the literally hundreds of other times between WoW and LoL and OW and EQ and FFXI/XIV and other games that I was better off totally ignoring others/doing my own research and yea. I think that this is something that has naturally built up as a result of the afformentioned. I wouldn't also be surprised if the inability to communicate very well online was a factor. Even if you are right, no one wants to hear your b*tching constantly about something, they'll all mute you.

 

[Affeinvasion]

There aren't a whole lot of real masters at anything that go around giving unsolicited advice and the people that do usually aren't masters.

 

[Raylan Targaryen]

My experience is : get good at the game yourself and you'll climb ranks, I'm in very high elos in both Overwatch and League of Legends and you don't have to tell people how to play the game because they know what to do.

Whether it's video games or sports, people at the highest level still benefit from the guidance of someone better/smarter than them. I'm not saying you need to shout orders at everyone but there's also a middle ground. Sometimes in the heat of the moment you might miss something obvious or overthinking a situation, nothing wrong with someone giving their input.

 

[Forsaken82]

TL;DR - we as gamers hide behind words like toxic, rage, tilt to avoid taking personal accountability, responsibility and most importantly, the ability to grow.

I feel like if I am raging or tilting, and I tell you i'm raging or tilting... that's me taking responsibility for my rage and tilt. I am not at all trying to pass it on to someone else and not take accountability for the shitstorm that is brewing due to my poor play, I am literally acknowledging that I am angry, whcih is on me, or that I am on tilt, again, totally on me...

 

[rocK`]

Because people that tell you how to play are not master analysts years in the making, they are going to be wrong and say either stupid things or just plain broad statements that everybody already know of.
Your OP is showing examples of team-based games, of course 1v1 fighters are completely different.
If you want to waste your time writing essays to 9 or 11 other people every post-game be my guest.



Please, you're fooling no one, first of all of course it matters. You'll never understand how to help someone play if you're in the same game as he is, if you really want to help people then get paid for spectating games and doing feedback.

Your whole point is just so silly and hypocrite, there'll never be something as infuriating as a random guy who thinks he's helping you by giving you mediocre advice, just build a team if you want to coach people

Good lord - you are overwhelmingly close minded.

I'd suggest you read The Will to Keep Winning - to show you how radically open minded professionals/competitive players of either sports or eSports needs to be in order to be excellent.

 

[Systolique]

Whether it's video games or sports, people at the highest level still benefit from the guidance of someone better/smarter than them. I'm not saying you need to shout orders at everyone but there's also a middle ground

Yes, they benefit from the guidance from people that are paid to play, who are training 10 to 15 hours a day, which obviously isn't either my case or OP's.

I personally don't have the pretentious idea to give advice to random people who have played hundreds of hours already during a 10min game, though I can give advice to friends or in the extremely rare case someone I don't know asks for it

 

[Fixed2BeBroken]

Toxicity is really any irrational emotional behavior that is harmful to your teammates and the game as a whole. If your criticism involves screaming at the person at the top of your lungs, it is toxic. No one wants hear a grown man scream like he's 12.

well yea obviously that would be toxic. Dont know if you even read what I said? what I was referring to were things that were not toxic tho being called toxic just cause people pull that card so easily in overwatch, to the point literally anything is toxic

 

[rocK`]

From my experience, 99% of the time the people offering "constructive feedback" don't have a clue what they are talking about. Here's a concrete, 100% real example from a Heroes of Newerth match:

At the start of the match I go mid with Plague Rider, a support hero that kind of sucks at that but hey, no one else wanted to do that so I do it. I get first blood within the first several minutes only to immediately be called all kind of insults. I keep playing really well, basically carrying the team and the insults continue. There's no feedback, no advice - except that I should apparently stop playing well. I then mute the guy and win the match.

Why the hell would I take advice from people like that? They clearly don't know what they are talking about and they offered no feedback or advice. And this wasn't an isolated incident either - MOBAs are full of people like this, and that's why the community's called toxic.

If I wanted advice, there's a ton of online guides I can look up. Guides made by people who actually know what they are talking about. Guides that actually help, and offer advice without screaming insults every 5 seconds. Taking advice from random people who can't go 5 minutes without exploding with rage is just about the worst way to learn the game there is.

why are you going mid as PR youre better off suiciding top =).

If you see another post I wrote, I agree, sometimes the advice isn't good - so you can totally discard it. I don't know what offense they did to you, but it's just meaningless words. Good on you to ignore bad advice, but I bet not all of it was bad.

 

[nightside]

There's a difference between something like (rocket league for examples) "hey, you need to improve your aerials" or "when defending the goal try to do this and this" or "you need to improve your rotations and boost management for this and this reason" and "you suck, kill yourself" or "get cancer" or "fuck you, uninstall the game". The former is criticism, the latter is a plain insult. What's "funny" is that often I saw this kind of thing written in chat by people who are not that good to begin with.
I got my fair share or even harsh criticism.. But insults are all another thing.

 

[ProgenitorCastle]

It's not a controversial opinion, just a dumb one. I've never seen someone called toxic for offering actual constructive criticism or helping someone learn the game. And most people who are actively making the game worse for others are never called on it, which is why people give up on playing games competitively.

The 'participation award' thing? Really?



That sounds great, I don't play games to be confrontational or overly critical of others. If you want to get sweaty, form a full team of people who also want to do that.

.