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[Respawn]

You expected them to completely overhaul their lighting engine for a PC port?

They said the game started on PC so excuse us if we're calling them out on this bullshit.

 

[Lasthope106]

I don't know what 'message' people are trying to send by not buying it.

I mean, poor sales of the PC version wouldn't mean that FROM works much harder on the next one. They would just ditch the PC as a platform altogether.

Then so be it. I supported the shit out of the 1st one so they could get the message that pc was viable. I bought copies for friends, and even to give away on GAF. And here is how FROM responds by misleading people with blatant lies with the sequel. And yes I'm going to blame BAMCO and FROM and not the journalists like some here are saying. Until a couple of weeks ago, there were screenshots of the vertical slice still being shown on Steam. It wasn't until the community called out their BS that they took them down. Actually, it should be the console guys that should be more pissed, especially the people who bought the game on PS3 which runs abhorrently for a game that isn't pushing polygons, and which was developed at the tail end of a console generation.

 

[Kintaro]

Have you ever stopped going to a restaurant because they served you food that looked nothing like what it looks like in the ads, even though it was delicious?

Just wondering lol

Actually, yes. You can stop going to a restaurant (not fast food) and complain that the ffood you got looked nothing like the food advertised in the menu (less meat, less veggies, etc) You will probably get a free dinner or more out of it as well. It's false advertising and if it bothers you that much, you can certainly call them out on it.

Also, Skyrim looked quite a bit better than the console versions. Unmodded. Right out of the box. I'll wait for impressions to see if Dark Souls 2 does the same.

 

[Tain]

Actually no. I'm not entirely happy with the marketing was handled. I don't think its 'the devil' like some people have made it seem and I don't think it was maliciously done, but they certainly did not do a good job with it.

I'm still buying the game, though. Has nothing to do with principles and everything to do with me very much wanting to play DSII.

I have principles, but I'm also not such a stickler that I'm going to let minor issues about the handling of the marketing of a video game get in the way of enjoying my fucking life.

The angle I'm coming from is that I see wanting to support a well-made game as every bit as valid of a principle as wanting a marketing campaign to be honest. Ideally the game would be great and the marketing wouldn't have been as messy, of course.

 

[CadetMahoney]

Help us Durante, you're our only hope

Spoiler

for better lighting

I don't think Durante wants any part of this. Didn't he even say so in this thread or something?

 

[Misterinenja]

I really don't know what some people think happened. lol

From Software stole their children and put dirty socks their baskets? Didn't you hear?

People are offended that the game doesn't look like old trailers or a screenshot on the back of the EU Limited Edition plastic slip up cover.
Therefore they're proudly announcing that they're not going to buy this game not having fifty bucks worth of dynamic lighting in it.

Now after all this time when they're starting to realize that maybe, just maybe, they're not getting hand-written apology letters and flower deliveries from From after all. Now it's a time to start shitting on the game being lazy uninspired B-team effort because some people here (on NeoGAF of all places?!?) have posted negative impressions of it. Because what kind of message would giving them money and forming your own opinions after all this drama would send? It's almost like they're not even interested in the game!

Somewhere there the malicious people of From Software are rubbing their evil hands together reading all this when clueless sheep are pre-ordering the game in masses.

Just according to keikaku.

Here's a salute to all the brave consumer warriors here standing in the face of temptingly solid PC port of fun action RPG goodness. #YouLied

 

[patapuf]

I agree, it's cool that they are offering the bare bones basic standards that all PC games are expected to have.

Actually the built in downsampling is something very few games have. It's not the best port ever but it's by all means solid.

 

[Metroid-Squadron]

You cant blame developers for consumers having unrealistic expectations.

I'm sure many people feel screwed over. Doesn't mean they are justified in feeling that way, though.

We can because they keep using the pre-downgraded media to promote the game as of today.

Amazing how many people defend these deceitful practices.

 

[Pie and Beans]

From Software stole their children and put dirty socks their baskets? Didn't you hear?

People are offended that the game doesn't look like old trailers or a screenshot on the back of the EU Limited Edition plastic slip up cover.
Therefore they're proudly announcing that they're not going to buy this game not having fifty bucks worth of dynamic lighting in it.

Now after all this time when they're starting to realize that maybe, just maybe, they're not getting hand-written apology letters and flower deliveries from From after all. Now it's a time to start shitting on the game being lazy uninspired B-team effort because some people here (on NeoGAF of all places?!?) have posted negative impressions of it. Because what kind of message would giving them money and forming your own opinions after all this drama would send? It's almost like they're not even interested in the game!

Somewhere there the malicious people of From Software are rubbing their evil hands together reading all this when clueless sheep are pre-ordering the game in masses.

Just according to keikaku.

Here's a salute to all the brave consumer warriors here standing in the face of temptingly solid PC port of fun action RPG goodness. #YouLied

I'm sure your cheque's in the mail. Jesus christ, try to be less of an asshole for the rest of the day though as you clearly met your OTT Straw Man quota in one steady and long exhalation of butt-wind.

 

[bigol]

We can because they keep using the pre-downgraded media to promote the game as of today.

Amazing how many people defend these deceitful practices.

These screenshots

http://multiplayer.it/notizie/128367-dark-souls-ii-una-galleria-inedita-per-dark-souls-ii.html

were released 8 weeks ago

One month before the release of the game. If Namco marketing wanted to fraud people don't you think they would have avoided to release them?

 

[zma1013]

I don't think Durante wants any part of this. Didn't he even say so in this thread or something?

Yeah I believe he said he doesn't have the spare time he used to have and he believes it looks like a competent port and there's really nothing for him to do to it. Something to that effect anyways.

 

[lucebuce12]

A little off topic from the whole graphics debate, but has anyone confirmed whether the PC version will use P2P for it's multiplayer matchmaking or will be server/steam based.

 

[Lasthope106]

From Software stole their children and put dirty socks their baskets? Didn't you hear?

People are offended that the game doesn't look like old trailers or a screenshot on the back of the EU Limited Edition plastic slip up cover.
Therefore they're proudly announcing that they're not going to buy this game not having fifty bucks worth of dynamic lighting in it.

Now after all this time when they're starting to realize that maybe, just maybe, they're not getting hand-written apology letters and flower deliveries from From after all. Now it's a time to start shitting on the game being lazy uninspired B-team effort because some people here (on NeoGAF of all places?!?) have posted negative impressions of it. Because what kind of message would giving them money and forming your own opinions after all this drama would send? It's almost like they're not even interested in the game!

Somewhere there the malicious people of From Software are rubbing their evil hands together reading all this when clueless sheep are pre-ordering the game in masses.

Just according to keikaku.

Here's a salute to all the brave consumer warriors here standing in the face of temptingly solid PC port of fun action RPG goodness. #YouLied

Now I've seen everything. #Dead

 

[soontroll]

These screenshots

http://multiplayer.it/notizie/128367-dark-souls-ii-una-galleria-inedita-per-dark-souls-ii.html

were released 8 weeks ago

One month before the release of the game. If Namco marketing wanted to fraud people don't you think they would have avoided to release them?

>PC preview thread.

Vertical slice screenshots were up on Steam until early last week and are still up on the official website.

 

[zma1013]

There have been PC ports with fewer options than this that didn't cause massive controversies. Lords of Shadow and Darksiders come to mind.

The uproar over DS2 isn't about the PC options though, it's always been about the first showcased "demo" and the discrepancies between it and the final game.

 

[Deified Data]

A little off topic from the whole graphics debate, but has anyone confirmed whether the PC version will use P2P for it's multiplayer matchmaking or will be server/steam based.

Server-based for matchmaking, P2P for everything else.

 

[Orayn]

The uproar over DS2 isn't about the PC options though, it's always been about the first showcased "demo" and the discrepancies between it and the final game.

Not disagreeing with that, just saying that the options in Dark Souls II are well above what the actual bare minimum is in practice.

In fact, I'd go so far as to say they're above average. Not a whole lot of games have built in downsampling support.

 

[lucebuce12]

Server-based for matchmaking, P2P for everything else.

So pretty much exactly like Dark Souls 1?

 

[Misterinenja]

I'm sure your cheque's in the mail. Jesus christ, try to be less of an asshole for the rest of the day though as you clearly met your OTT Straw Man quota in one steady and long exhalation of butt-wind.

I had so much fun writing that getting payed would be too much even for me.

 

[Orayn]

So pretty much exactly like Dark Souls 1?

I've been told that connectivity is much, much better than the first game with very few failed summonings by comparison.

 

[bigol]

>PC preview thread.

yeah, but made you think lighting would be different on Pc compared to consoles?

Did From or Namco say:"don't worry the PC version will be like April 2013 demo?"

Where are the deceitful practices?

 

[lucebuce12]

I've been told that connectivity is much, much better than the first game with very few failed summonings by comparison.

Hmm. I will definitely get the game, but how good the multiplayer connectivity is will govern whether I get it on release or on a sale (Pakistan has shitty internet connectivity).

 

[soontroll]

yeah, but made you think lighting would be different on Pc compared to consoles?

Did From or Namco say:"don't worry the PC version will be like April 2013 demo?"

Where are the deceitful practices?

-steam screenshots
-official website screenshots
-no other information about PC version
-supposed lead platform
-PC audience will not be disappointed.

 

[BearPawB]

-steam screenshots
-official website screenshots
-no other information about PC version
-supposed lead platform
-PC audience will not be disappointed.

How are the steam screenshots misleading?

 

[jim2point0]

*See inital in-game gameplay footage*

*Expect the game to look like it*

*Somehow, this is now unreasonable*

This is what is so surprising to me. I feel as though if this were ANY other game, people would be shitting all over it. See: Watch Dogs.

I remember thinking back to the first video I saw of FROM talking about the new lighting engine. They seemed so proud of it. They convinced me, at the very least, that I would see that in the PC version.

I just do not understand the defense of this practice in general. It's basically saying "hey, devs, please continue to deceive us in the future. We don't mind!"

I don't get it ,people here are going to play the graphics or the game itself . False marketing is bad yes , but it still look decent and its still a Souls game at its root . I can't believe those waiting out for the pc version would want to drag it till sales , ridiculous .

It's a matter of hype and hype-deflation. If I'd never seen any footage of this game prior to release, I might be reasonably excited to play it right now. But I did see footage and I was REALLY excited to get my hands on the lighting and atmosphere in some of those videos. Atmosphere can make a ton of difference, and it's been stripped away entirely from some areas.

So now my hype is deflated. And that has me thinking "Eh.... I'll get it. At some point" rather than "OMG ITS OUT GOTTA HAVE IT."

Some folks are perfectly ok with being mislead and will still play the game and enjoy it. More power to them. I wish I could be one of them. But I have other games to play anyways so I'm not totally bummed.

 

[soontroll]

How are the steam screenshots misleading?

They had the vertical slice screenshots until early last week.

 

[Mengy]

From Software stole their children and put dirty socks their baskets? Didn't you hear?

People are offended that the game doesn't look like old trailers or a screenshot on the back of the EU Limited Edition plastic slip up cover.
Therefore they're proudly announcing that they're not going to buy this game not having fifty bucks worth of dynamic lighting in it.

Now after all this time when they're starting to realize that maybe, just maybe, they're not getting hand-written apology letters and flower deliveries from From after all. Now it's a time to start shitting on the game being lazy uninspired B-team effort because some people here (on NeoGAF of all places?!?) have posted negative impressions of it. Because what kind of message would giving them money and forming your own opinions after all this drama would send? It's almost like they're not even interested in the game!

Somewhere there the malicious people of From Software are rubbing their evil hands together reading all this when clueless sheep are pre-ordering the game in masses.

Just according to keikaku.

Here's a salute to all the brave consumer warriors here standing in the face of temptingly solid PC port of fun action RPG goodness. #YouLied

I can't speak for everyone, but for me the final graphical quality of the game isn't the issue. I mean I play games like Minecraft, Master of Magic, and Starbound regularly, so crappy graphics don't bother me at all as long as gameplay is there. The marketing before launch is my beef. I just think they were very disrespectful to the consumers, and I do not want to support actions like that. My dollar is my vote, that's how I both feel and act.

Make no mistake, I have no misconceptions about my not buying the game having any influence on FROM at all. This game is going to sell bonkers and most everyone here is going to buy it day one if they don't already own it. I don't care, I'll skip it because I simply believe that actions speak louder than words, and actions have consequences. It's how I live my life. It's really just that simple.



Besides, I still need to run a few New Game +++'s on the first Dark Souls yet, having just recently beaten it for the first time myself.

 

[anchorman128]

Not disagreeing with that, just saying that the options in Dark Souls II are well above what the actual bare minimum is in practice.

In fact, I'd go so far as to say they're above average. Not a whole lot of games have built in downsampling support.

You must not PC game often because almost all games have down sampling suppory, it's not something that is hard to implement.

 

[Takuan]

From Software stole their children and put dirty socks their baskets? Didn't you hear?

People are offended that the game doesn't look like old trailers or a screenshot on the back of the EU Limited Edition plastic slip up cover.
Therefore they're proudly announcing that they're not going to buy this game not having fifty bucks worth of dynamic lighting in it.

Now after all this time when they're starting to realize that maybe, just maybe, they're not getting hand-written apology letters and flower deliveries from From after all. Now it's a time to start shitting on the game being lazy uninspired B-team effort because some people here (on NeoGAF of all places?!?) have posted negative impressions of it. Because what kind of message would giving them money and forming your own opinions after all this drama would send? It's almost like they're not even interested in the game!

Somewhere there the malicious people of From Software are rubbing their evil hands together reading all this when clueless sheep are pre-ordering the game in masses.

Just according to keikaku.

Here's a salute to all the brave consumer warriors here standing in the face of temptingly solid PC port of fun action RPG goodness. #YouLied

Sometimes NeoGAF noise catches on, sometimes it doesn't. This is one of those cases. The game is, by most accounts, excellent. I look forward to playing this on PC.

 

[Sullichin]

Did anyone here honestly think that the PC version would wind up having the new lighting engine/look like the vertical slice since the PS3 version was released? Is anyone legitimately surprised that it doesn't?

You must not PC game often because almost all games have down sampling suppory, it's not something that is hard to implement.

Almost every game I have doesn't let me go above my monitor's max resolution in the menus. Usually not hard to do, but not usually supported in the menus is all.

 

[soontroll]

Did anyone here honestly think that the PC version would wind up having the new lighting engine/look like the vertical slice since the PS3 version was released? Is anyone legitimately surprised that it doesn't?

Until the steam screenshots were removed, yes, I thought the lighting had a good chance of coming back and the 6 week delay further convinced me, though I was still wary and skeptical.

 

[Triggerhappytel]

He he he, poor From Software... it's not good enough to just make a seemingly great followup to a good game anymore is it?

I think it's more that they're not following through on what they showed in previews. It's not like backlash in this scenario is unique to From either; look at Watch Dogs for a recent example.

 

[Misterinenja]

I can't speak for everyone, but for me the final graphical quality of the game isn't the issue. I mean I play games like Minecraft, Master of Magic, and Starbound regularly, so crappy graphics don't bother me at all as long as gameplay is there. The marketing before launch is my beef. I just think they were very disrespectful to the consumers, and I do not want to support actions like that. My dollar is my vote, that's how I both feel and act.

Don't take my attempts at being funny too seriously. That was mostly trying to ruffle feathers among the people in this thread who are announcing the game as being lazy/uninspired/etc. without even playing it.

My opinion is that it's not as good as the first Dark Souls but anyone who liked it at all is doing him/herself a disservice by not playing the sequel. Also I think the reasons for all the outrage are petty at best,

 

[Yasae]

What false previews (aside from PS Access trailer with old footage)?

How did they "misled" when the latest preview material represented the retail game and material before that was accurate for the time being and actual gameplay footage of said build? Yes, old screenshots weren't removed, but do you really see it as intention to mislead rather than, say, miscommunication between the development team,publisher and marketing team?

What are the problems with the responses they've given? Performance reasons is very valid answer for the reason of the downgrade?

..........Not on PC it isn't, which again points to the lack of resources. You could definitely have the game they showed earlier on PC - just like Watch Dogs.

But that'll never happen, even in a patch, and From will keep beating around the bush with their answers because they don't want to admit any of these facts. PR death.

 

[_machine]

-steam screenshots

Removed before release

-official website screenshots

Yes, but is it really that big of thing? It's one site maintained by the marketing team and only requires one misstep between developers, publisher and marketing team. Majority of all other previews they've shown have been accurate at the time.

-no other information about PC version

I can't really see not giving information deceitful, besides they said that it would have the features they promised and they delivered on that and now we have the press previews. The game is not yet released and they're showing what the final product looks like. They don't have to answer any question we have.

-supposed lead platform
-PC audience will not be disappointed.

Uh, these are not something that can be quantified. What does the lead platform promise vs. what do you think it implies? It's simply a development method that you can't disprove that they didn't do. And by most accounts the PC version is really competent and noticeably above the console versions and has actually more settings than the average game today. Saying "you will not be disappointed" holds no value.

 

[Gvaz]

Seems extraordinarily obvious that the textures are higher res in the PC version. Like... it actually baffles me that people could think otherwise.

That is the same textures just with higher resolution.

They did upgrade the icon textures though. Not the gui textures however.

 

[PairOfFilthySocks]

You're taking what I said out of context. It was in reference to something very specific, which you've not paid attention to and have just gone off because the rage mind has no time to slow down and think reasonably for a second.

I do love how I can be called both a fanboy and a basher in the same thread. lol

Expecting the PC version to get the lighting settings that were deemed too demanding for the console hardware is not unreasonable or unrealistic in any way at all. The devs got lazy. Simple as that.

 

[Krusenstern]

Did anyone here honestly think that the PC version would wind up having the new lighting engine/look like the vertical slice since the PS3 version was released? Is anyone legitimately surprised that it doesn't?

It was the general conception that we would see the previous lighting engine and geometry in the final PC version. We we're shown footage and playable demos with the previous content. No one in hell would be thinking they would downgrade that before they started to show us actual game footage (which we assumed was simply the console version).

Pre-release build didn't look like it was impossible to do on PC. At all. It seemed fairly feasible to achieve these visuals, at least on PC.

 

[_machine]

..........Not on PC it isn't

No, but quoting myself, it is rather unfeasible from a development standpoint:

I think it needs to be repeated that the new lighting engine was never removed, it still has all the features they've shown and it runs on all platforms. What they did is tone down all the performance heavy aspects of it in the levels themselves, dynamic lights and shadowcasters etc. So they absolutely delivered on the promise of a new, dynamic lighting engine even if the end result is less than stellar.

Secondly, do not get your hopes up about getting the detailed lights back through modding. The reason is that the lighting is embed in to the level and assets data, which is extremely hard for us to access without the tools FROM has. In itself it's not something that is huge thing to do with the tools, but it means that supporting the game would be near-impossible for a team the size of FROM (basically it would mean increasing the amount of possible bugs, yet almost doubling the work needed on patches).

Changing the models in the levels would also be very hard without the tools, even if the assets are still in the game files (which is actually quite likely, removing unused assets often isn't a huge priority during the last crunch). Given the quality of some areas it's also quite likely that no all of them even had a proper polish pass done or the downgrade was a really quick hack job back to the "level layout" stage of quality (basically the level is playable and complete, but is graphically missing most of the unique assets and textures and needs the final polish pass to look good).

Texture swapping is pretty much the only thing that could be done in relative ease, but for me it's definitely not the biggest factor in DS2's graphics, though better textures in some areas certainly wouldn't hurt.

Also, those spouting personal attacks such as "lazy devs" and "fuck from" should do some reading:
Working in the Games Industry: a job to die for?

These people really give their all to deliver the best game they can and sacrifice a lot for that dream. But game development is a hard mistress and a lot of shit happens, most of which we never hear about, and sometimes you just can't deliver what you hoped you would.

That said, there are problems in the industry that should be answered and these things happen because of human error as well, but that's an entirely different topic.

 

[soontroll]

Removed before release

Yes, but is it really that big of thing? It's one site maintained by the marketing team and only requires one misstep between developers, publisher and marketing team. Majority of all other previews they've shown have been accurate at the time.

I can't really see not giving information deceitful, besides they said that it would have the features they promised and they delivered on that and now we have the press previews. The game is not yet released and they're showing what the final product looks like. They don't have to answer any question we have.

Uh, these are not something that can be quantified. What does the lead platform promise vs. what do you think it implies? It's simply a development method that you can't disprove that they didn't do. And by most accounts the PC version is really competent and noticeably above the console versions and has actually more settings than the average game today. Saying "you will not be disappointed" holds no value.

My reply was w.r.t the question: what made you think lighting would be different on PC than consoles?

Those points are not all reasons why I think they were deceitful. I have further reasons for that which I have explained many times before and have no ambition to repeat them again. I will add that while I think they were deceitful, I don't think it was intentionally done to fool us or anything.

 

[_machine]

Expecting the PC version to get the lighting settings that were deemed too demanding for the console hardware is not unreasonable or unrealistic in any way at all. The devs got lazy. Simple as that.

See the above post. I especially hate the "lazy devs" argument because these guys probably work over 60hrs a week (given the state of the game, most likely even more to get it done by the release schedule).

 

[Yasae]

Vertical slice, vertical slice, vertical slice.

Are we talking about a slice of the actual game, or a slice of something which will never be released? Because it nearly always seems the latter.

 

[aeolist]

I'm just stunned at the negativity surrounding this port. It is so much better than the first game's.

it's better, but it's still kind of the bare minimum necessary to meet reasonable expectations when they promised much more

given how completely awful the first one was i was skeptical that those promises would be met (which worked out well for me) but they did say it was PC-first which is clearly not the case

 

[Sullichin]

Until the steam screenshots were removed, yes, I thought the lighting had a good chance of coming back and the 6 week delay further convinced me, though I was still wary and skeptical.

But those were old screenshots that we've seen before the PS3 release that feature geometry that isn't in the game either (if they're the ones I'm thinking of).

The mistake was using this vertical slice for marketing materials, but they're the same old screens. I recognized when newer previews and stuff used them as screens from that old build/demo. Then newer screenshots came out and people called them ugly. Then the game came out. I just can't feel like I've been deceived when I could see what was happening.

 

[Deified Data]

So pretty much exactly like Dark Souls 1?

Connectivity is 100% better, as Orayn said. If you want to do something online you'll rarely have to wait more than a minute to do so - usually less than 30 seconds. The only exception is high-level action before NG+, where soul memory might knock you out of a few level brackets.

 

[_machine]

My reply was w.r.t the question: what made you think lighting would be different on PC than consoles?

Uh, I didn't?

I never posted it at the time, but I was pretty certain that we were never getting that level of detail in the PC release, because it would be rather unfeasible from a development standpoint.

 

[Schweinehund]

I don't think Durante wants any part of this. Didn't he even say so in this thread or something?

He (paraphrasing here) pretty much said he doesn't have the time right now like he did with DS, and he doesn't really find the lighting controversy a big deal at all.


Them loading times tho.... so good. I'm glad I can understand what vertical slice and prototype mean, and also that I can keep my expectations in check.

 

[soontroll]

Uh, I didn't?

I never posted it at the time, but I was pretty certain that we were never getting that level of detail in the PC release, because it would be rather unfeasible from a development standpoint.

Please re-read that sentence. I'm saying the post of mine which you replied to was replying to that question asked by someone else.

But those were old screenshots that we've seen before the PS3 release that feature geometry that isn't in the game either (if they're the ones I'm thinking of).

The mistake was using this vertical slice for marketing materials, but they're the same old screens. I recognized when newer previews and stuff used them as screens from that old build/demo. Then newer screenshots came out and people called them ugly. Then the game came out. I just can't feel like I've been deceived when I could see what was happening.

I figured the PS3 version was downgraded for performance reasons and since they had already made those more complex assets, they would be using them, along with the lighting, in the PC version.

 

[Yasae]

No, but quoting myself, it is rather unfeasible from a development standpoint:

Then let's add 500 people to their staff.

Feasible now?

 

[Metroid-Squadron]

These screenshots

http://multiplayer.it/notizie/128367-dark-souls-ii-una-galleria-inedita-per-dark-souls-ii.html

were released 8 weeks ago

One month before the release of the game. If Namco marketing wanted to fraud people don't you think they would have avoided to release them?

http://store.steampowered.com/app/236430/

Only gameplay trailer, using pre-downgraded material. No disclaimers about its misrepresentation of the final product.

Having to go to third party sites to find out the truth says it all.