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Dark Souls III [unmarked Spoilers Thread]
- Thread starter Novum_Veritas
- Start date
N
Noray
Unconfirmed Member
Of course there are good moments for a fan, and I enjoy the game a lot, but the main story of finding the four lords and linking the flame/not linking the flame feels to much of a rethread honestly
Yeah, I tend to agree with you Zero. There's so much going on in this game but a lot of it seems like fan service for the sake of fanservice. Theres not a lot of mention of the abyss apart from the Abyss Watcher's, except maybe that's what that gooey black stuff is? And there's no humanity anymore, which is a little strange. Even in DS2 there were the human effigies and the Manus fragments which were clearly linked to humanity. It seems kind of weird that these would just be non-elements now.
And apparently multiple people can link the fire? The Abyss Watchers collectively linked the fire in the past? That's a pretty interesting observation, and I'd like to know more about it. And why are there two full-fledged Dark Wraiths right outside the boss door? The Rosaria's Fingers dude tells you that there's only one remaining and he's locked in the lowest cell in the first area. So I guess these two guys are just unrelated?
It's just kind of frustrating since DS1 did such a good job of relating gameplay and enemy placement to lore, and DS2 went out of its way to create a world that echoed a lot of the first game but at the same time was radically different.
ShadowSwordmaster
Banned
It feels like From Soft added a lot of things from the previous souls game (including Bloodborne) and add it in Dark Souls 3 for fanservice or reference. There doing a lot of interesting stuff mechanical and the game looks beautiful. But, In the end, there better have a good explanation in the lore for what is happening.
ZeroTheShadow
Member
Weapons with built in magic damaged being bugged sucks. +8 Boss weapons doing less damage than +4 starting straight sword is a joke. Please fix FROM.
DorkLord54
Member
That's what really irks me. In the first two games, linking the fire was seen as a noble act because of the threat of the Abyss consuming the world if the First Flame is to ever be extinguished. Here, there seems to be little more than a few references to it, and doesn't really seem all that important to the overall story of the game, with you linking the fire "just because".
ZeroTheShadow
Member
Can't wait for the 4 part DLC that tries to salvage the lore.
ShadowSwordmaster
Banned
Just two? I thought there was more.
Orochinagis
Member
Dark Souls 4 with the same endings confirmed.
Indeed, I was expecting a more straighforward ending considering this is the last Dark Soul game. not just the same ending from previous games with variations but the same ending in essence and a small extra vague dialogue about the flames will appear anyway if you go to the dark lord ending
What salvaging? I expect more kings and/or lords of cinder to destroy to get an even bigger ending. Maybe we'll see the gods we skipped over too.
All these lore questions will be speculated on once the people who have waited and care make the lore thread.
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
I thought this was interesting from a localization point of view.
In English, they are called the Lords of Cinder.
Now, to me, "cinder" implies hot fragments in a burnt out fire. So Lords that have already burnt up and had their fire go out, or begin to go out, at least.
In Japanese, they are called 薪の王（たきぎのおう = Takigi no Oh). The word takigi and the Kanji being used for it straight up mean firewood.
Here's what you get when you do a Google image search:
https://www.google.com/search?q=たきぎ...ved=0ahUKEwi0ws6W1fXLAhUU1WMKHYKjDUUQ_AUIBigB
https://www.google.com/search?q=たきぎ...ws6W1fXLAhUU1WMKHYKjDUUQ_AUIBigB#tbm=isch&q=薪
So, yeah, very much something you use to *start* a fire, not something you really use to describe a burnt out fire or a fire that's burning out.
Now, I didn't really think this was a big deal until I encountered the princes Lothric and Lorian. They are given the same title, but they refused to rekindle the flame, instead deciding to let it go out and embrace the darkness.
Because of this, it strikes me as odd to call them "Lords of Cinder." While "Lords of Kindling" or whatever is not nearly as cool of a name, I think it or something like it would be more accurate to what they're trying to convey. It kind of ties into the other concepts that not just anyone can kindle the flame, but only those with a powerful enough soul.
This translation goes back to the original Dark Souls and Gwyn, so I don't think there's any way Frognation (the localization company) could have known, but I thought it was interesting anyway.
In English, they are called the Lords of Cinder.
Now, to me, "cinder" implies hot fragments in a burnt out fire. So Lords that have already burnt up and had their fire go out, or begin to go out, at least.
In Japanese, they are called 薪の王（たきぎのおう = Takigi no Oh). The word takigi and the Kanji being used for it straight up mean firewood.
Here's what you get when you do a Google image search:
https://www.google.com/search?q=たきぎ...ved=0ahUKEwi0ws6W1fXLAhUU1WMKHYKjDUUQ_AUIBigB
https://www.google.com/search?q=たきぎ...ws6W1fXLAhUU1WMKHYKjDUUQ_AUIBigB#tbm=isch&q=薪
So, yeah, very much something you use to *start* a fire, not something you really use to describe a burnt out fire or a fire that's burning out.
Now, I didn't really think this was a big deal until I encountered the princes Lothric and Lorian. They are given the same title, but they refused to rekindle the flame, instead deciding to let it go out and embrace the darkness.
Because of this, it strikes me as odd to call them "Lords of Cinder." While "Lords of Kindling" or whatever is not nearly as cool of a name, I think it or something like it would be more accurate to what they're trying to convey. It kind of ties into the other concepts that not just anyone can kindle the flame, but only those with a powerful enough soul.
This translation goes back to the original Dark Souls and Gwyn, so I don't think there's any way Frognation (the localization company) could have known, but I thought it was interesting anyway.
N
Noray
Unconfirmed Member
Yeah that's likely a poetic license type thing. Lords of Cinder just sounds good. But you're right, when I think cinder or ember I think of the remains of a dying fire.
I would like to know what the darksign in the sky indicates. It's like the late-game twist... only nobody mentions it anywhere as far as I know.
I would like to know what the darksign in the sky indicates. It's like the late-game twist... only nobody mentions it anywhere as far as I know.
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
Frognation are the kings of poetic license in video game localization, and I think they generally do an excellent job of it. The vocabulary and phrasing they come up with are really appealing to me.
At the same time, the Japanese text often provides a much plainer impression.
Kings of Kindling is one example. That's the impression you get, and it isn't exactly cool.
Lots of examples of stuff like this. Another would be 冷たい谷, which is literally just "cold valley" got localized as "Boreal Valley."
I'll admit that I had to look up "boreal" when I first saw it, but from what I can tell it implies a northern climate (as in physically located in the north) rather than just being "cold." Is the valley really that far north of the rest of the game?
DorkLord54
Member
Yeah, boreal is from "borealis", the Latin word for "north"; despite taking so much from the Romans, most European languages actually use Old English-derived words for directions (north, south, east, west).
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
Makes sense!
So the English is implying some kind of geographic positioning while the Japanese is simply describing the temperature.
DorkLord54
Member
Possibly, though it could just mean that it's cold, and they just used boreal because it's a cool word (no pun intended).
Good stuff! Regarding the bolded, Frog have been localising From's games into English since Demon's, so they were well aware of all names and terms in Dark 1. As well as having Gwyn, Lord of Cinder in the original game, you also had the Rite of Kindling, so I imagine they didn't want an overlap there. Plus, as people have said, Lord of Cinder just sounds way better.
Boreal Valley was originally translated as Frigid Valley in the network test. Frigid is servicable, but as has been pointed out, Boreal gives that impression of a northern region as well as having a certain air about it. (Plus we had Frigid Outskirts in Dark 2, so I guess they didn't want to confuse people.)
I agree. While Incarnation of The Lords is again more straightforward and "weightier", Soul of Cinder plays on what they've built. Plus it has a really nice ring to it, imo.
Maybe I'm wrong but from what I understand not all Unkindled are Undead, that's why you're special in the eyes of Yoel and Yuria. A normal unkindled is just a dead person (I guess not necessarily human either) resurrected by the First Flame to search for the Lords of Cinder, beings that died in the past linking the flame, like Gwyn.
You're an Unkndled but you also bear the mark of the Undead. Yoel manages to awake the hollowing process in you and you are selected to Yuria to do...something (see third ending)
Yoel and the pilgrims are simply undead, like you were in the past games.
You're an Unkndled but you also bear the mark of the Undead. Yoel manages to awake the hollowing process in you and you are selected to Yuria to do...something (see third ending)
Yoel and the pilgrims are simply undead, like you were in the past games.
I'd agree with Yuria but not a chance with Yoel. The "pilgrims" are definitely not just undead (there are plenty of fully hollow undead around the game to show anyway).
The most obvious sign is they become GIANT SUPER DEATH BUTTERFLIES.
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
Oh, I know that they've been doing this since the beginning. What I meant was that they couldn't have known (without specifically asking the developer, which they may have) all future uses of 薪 outside of the context of the original Demon's Souls when they were first translating the term.
Interesting.
One thing of note: 王の化身 (singular version of 王たちの化身, which is the last boss in Dark Souls III) was the name of the trophy you got when you defeated Old King Allant in Demon's Souls, which indicated that you defeated the incarnation or avatar form of Allant, and not the original King Allant. I think this was localized as "False King" in the English version.
Darryl M R
Member
What are the best PVP rings?
Haha, indeed! The large "cap" on the back of Yoel and his late buddies is an interesting detail. Notice how the Cleric starting gear has something similar...
Good catch!
DorkLord54
Member
Who, strangely, despite Londor's connection with Kaathe and the Darkwraiths, seem to be beings of Chaos.
Not sure if there are multiple meanings in the English language for the word cinder but if you translate that to the German "Zunder" it can mean the following:
1. Burnt out piece of coal (like you already said)
2. Very flammable material to kindle a fire
However, maybe FROM intentionally wants it connected to embers. Here's a definition of cinder I found:
"a piece of charred material that burns without flames; ember"
A glowing piece of coal burns without fire but can definitely be used to kindle a new fire if you add flammable material.
Or maybe it really is just a choice to make it sound coolers. ¯\_(ツ
_/¯
N
Noray
Unconfirmed Member
After some consideration I think I may have to conclude that Wolnir is the worst fucking bossfight in the entire Souls series. How do I hate thee? Let me count the ways.
1) He's a huge, slow punching bag. He hardly does anything, but when he does do it, he's so big that it's almost impossible to tell. And believe me, I'm not locking on to this motherfucker.
2) Much of the fight is spent waiting until he puts his stupid arms in a place where you can attack them.
3) The fog that kills you has to be one of the worst pieces of visual feedback in the series. There's always some right underneath him but you can kind of stand in it? But then he does the big breath attack that covers way too much space and it's immediate death, pretty much. Yeah it has a huge wind-up but also I've just spent 30 seconds just waiting for him to put his damn arms in a place I can attack them leave me alone, you've all been killed by it too, don't lie.
4) He summons skeletons but they're just minor aggravations, usually he just kills them immediately, or sometimes he doesn't even get to that part if you get good RNG and his patterns are favorable.
5) Nothing about this fight is interesting, fun or an actual challenge. You get killed, you didn't learn shit. you beat him, gg, thanks for the good RNG. Whenever I beat him he usually doesn't even get his damn sword out.
I fucking hate Wolnir. He sucks, he's boring, he's cheap, and dumb. I've killed him 4 or 5 times but I always die to him at least once for some stupid shitty reason. Yeah, Bed of Chaos sucks, but you know what, at least it's reliable. I can do that shit in one almost every time. Wolnir doesn't even have that going for him.
1) He's a huge, slow punching bag. He hardly does anything, but when he does do it, he's so big that it's almost impossible to tell. And believe me, I'm not locking on to this motherfucker.
2) Much of the fight is spent waiting until he puts his stupid arms in a place where you can attack them.
3) The fog that kills you has to be one of the worst pieces of visual feedback in the series. There's always some right underneath him but you can kind of stand in it? But then he does the big breath attack that covers way too much space and it's immediate death, pretty much. Yeah it has a huge wind-up but also I've just spent 30 seconds just waiting for him to put his damn arms in a place I can attack them leave me alone, you've all been killed by it too, don't lie.
4) He summons skeletons but they're just minor aggravations, usually he just kills them immediately, or sometimes he doesn't even get to that part if you get good RNG and his patterns are favorable.
5) Nothing about this fight is interesting, fun or an actual challenge. You get killed, you didn't learn shit. you beat him, gg, thanks for the good RNG. Whenever I beat him he usually doesn't even get his damn sword out.
I fucking hate Wolnir. He sucks, he's boring, he's cheap, and dumb. I've killed him 4 or 5 times but I always die to him at least once for some stupid shitty reason. Yeah, Bed of Chaos sucks, but you know what, at least it's reliable. I can do that shit in one almost every time. Wolnir doesn't even have that going for him.
How the hell do you even die to Wolnir? I've killed him 4 times now on 4 different characters with 4 different builds and even the first character I beat him going in blind without ever feeling threatened. He's DS3's Pinwheeler.
I can't even figure out what he can kill you with. If he raises his arms he's obviously gonna slam them down so watch his hands, and if you're dying from fog then just run away or out to the sides where it doesn't reach
I can't even figure out what he can kill you with. If he raises his arms he's obviously gonna slam them down so watch his hands, and if you're dying from fog then just run away or out to the sides where it doesn't reach
Shit boss IMO, along with Ancient Wyvern. Even worse with High Lord Wolnir is that his intro is pretty damn cool...Then the fight starts and it's pure disappointment.
So, I wonder how much all of the Dark Souls 2 similarities/complaints will piss people off, or if they'll kind of disappear like complaints about life gems did after Bloodborne came out.
- Humanoid bosses!
- Guy in Armor bosses!
- Boss fights against multiple things at once!
- Fast Travel!
- No inter-connectivity!
Despite all of those, the response to the game has been overwhelmingly positive, as it should be IMO. The bosses that don't fit into the categories people complain about are also listed by many as the three worst (Tree, Wyvern, and Wolnir).
I thought Wolnir was really cool, though.
- Humanoid bosses!
- Guy in Armor bosses!
- Boss fights against multiple things at once!
- Fast Travel!
- No inter-connectivity!
Despite all of those, the response to the game has been overwhelmingly positive, as it should be IMO. The bosses that don't fit into the categories people complain about are also listed by many as the three worst (Tree, Wyvern, and Wolnir).
I thought Wolnir was really cool, though.
LegalEagleMike
Member
Hey I am just glad this game does not have any areas that are truly frustrating to the point that I do not enjoy playing the game while in those zones.
Yeah all of those things are present in DS3, it's just that the bosses are still interesting despite that. There's more to them.
I like Wolnir as a boss. He's really easy but looks cool and I like having a few easy bosses interspersed throughout the game. Not everything needs to be aneurysm inducing.
Yup, I agree.
I can understand people not liking Dark Souls 2, but people latch onto few clusters of ideas and trends that are going to kind of peel away once people play Dark Souls 3. The boss fights in particular do so many things well.
- Boss arenas are more open than in BB and Dark Souls 1, so the camera is less spazy.
- There are more multi-phase fights than there were in BB, and way more than were in DS2.
- Designs and consistently awesome and unique, which I guess is the tradeoff for there being relatively few.
I'd rank the top 8 bosses as follows:
1. Two Princes (great cut-scene between round 1 and 2)
2. Abyss Watchers (just wish it was late-game and a bit more difficult, still fun as hell)
3. Dancer (loved the music and the graceful movements)
4. Pontiff
5. Soul of Cinder
6. Dragonslayer Armor
7. Oceiros (enjoyed his dialogue during the fight)
8. Old Demon King
LegalEagleMike
Member
Id agree with most of that. Think i would replace Oceiros with Aldrich based on the fight alone, although the dialogue is a nice touch I will give you that.
I liked the Ancient Wyvern and Yohm. Fights that give you those "holy shit, I've got it!" moments deserve their place too, even if it makes them trivial once you know the gimmick.
For me I'll just go for top 5
1. Abyss Watchers I love duel type fights. Lady Maria, Artorias, etc. and similar to those fights, the music in AW is gooooood like. I prefer Maria and Art as characters (obviously) but the first phase of AW is really cool.
2. Nameless King Such a badass design. Like fighting Zeus on a giant bird, and that second stage transition 😱
3. Princes Clever design and requires lots of quick thinking. Very fun and exhausting fight.
4. Yohm Yeah it's easy as piss but Siegwald sauntering in and fucking shit up, plus the return of the Storm Ruler and that feeling of "I got your number" makes it a lot of fun
5. Aldritch Love the varieties of attacks and the graphics in this fight. Music getting intense and FIRE in 2nd phase was so awesome
Edit: changed number 5
You know, does anyone else find it kinda funny that most souls fans seem to cry in protest at any and all "spoilers" to the point of comical absurdity (out of context boss names, really?) yet there sits the final boss of the game, and maybe the entire series, on the cover of the damned game. Is that not a "spoiler"? I mean we have people screaming in agony over discussion of bosses and/or enemies that show up in official media.
N
Noray
Unconfirmed Member
Not really. I mean, there's a point where if you don't want to read an errant boss name, or know anything, I'd tell you to just stay out of the fucking OT, because DUH, but I understand the mentality. So much of the first-time impact of a Souls game is names of areas and bosses and going "WTF is THIS". As for the cover, if you don't know what it is, it's not a spoiler, is it? Only if someone tells you that do you know.
N
Noray
Unconfirmed Member
How you gonna make a TOP EIGHT and not put Nameless King on it tho. Craziness.
Ancient Wyvern is whatever, it's not a good boss fight, but it's also totally inoffensive. It's a cool setpiece, I guess? That happens to also be a boss. I don't mind it.
Soul of Cinder is just... idk, it's like you're playing Rainbow Street Fighter 2 and someone hacked Ryu to give him all of the moves. You're playing a hacking PVP'er who then turns into Hyper Gwyn. It's not a bad fight but aside from the callback there's nothing about it that sets it apart from a Dragonslayer Armour or Pontiff Sullyvahn or Nameless King. It's purposefully generic, but that doesn't make it not generic. It's not a character. It didn't really land for me the way it was intended to, I guess. I much prefer a character I have some emotional stakes in like a Gwyn, or the GOAT, Gehrman.
Ancient Wyvern is whatever, it's not a good boss fight, but it's also totally inoffensive. It's a cool setpiece, I guess? That happens to also be a boss. I don't mind it.
Soul of Cinder is just... idk, it's like you're playing Rainbow Street Fighter 2 and someone hacked Ryu to give him all of the moves. You're playing a hacking PVP'er who then turns into Hyper Gwyn. It's not a bad fight but aside from the callback there's nothing about it that sets it apart from a Dragonslayer Armour or Pontiff Sullyvahn or Nameless King. It's purposefully generic, but that doesn't make it not generic. It's not a character. It didn't really land for me the way it was intended to, I guess. I much prefer a character I have some emotional stakes in like a Gwyn, or the GOAT, Gehrman.
At least wait until after the Western release of the game, I think. That would just be pouring salt on the wounds right now and would lead to people spoiling themselves.
1. Nameless King
2. Soul of Cinder
3. Dancer
4. Dragonslayer Armor
(massive gap)
5. Aldrich
7-8: Uh...
I basically can't remember the rest of the fights other than abyss watchers and lothric bros, but I can't in good faith put those in any top list as the fights are just too short for them to fully develop into anything other than spectacle fights that are more fun to watch than anything.
2. Soul of Cinder
3. Dancer
4. Dragonslayer Armor
(massive gap)
5. Aldrich
7-8: Uh...
I basically can't remember the rest of the fights other than abyss watchers and lothric bros, but I can't in good faith put those in any top list as the fights are just too short for them to fully develop into anything other than spectacle fights that are more fun to watch than anything.