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[viveks86]

I guess it's hard to grasp what to expect from a FPS MMO when you say "cooperation challenge."

I'm having visions of six people hopping on individual platforms that all disappear one second after anybody steps on one. Anybody that jumps even a smidgen off sync with the rest of the group spells doom for the rest.

Visions? They showed almost exactly what you described in a trailer!

Lower-quality rewards if you play and win with randoms.

Not sure I understand, why should doing something that is even more challenging yield lower quality rewards? If they bother to create an option, why would they discourage people from using it?

 

[Twilight Gap]

Will I need to do a 2 hour raid every week in order to get the best sniper rifle? I don't want to be forced to PvE in order to PvP.

You can buy gear from vendors in the Tower with specific currency you can earn from PvP and bounties. Or you can find them in shorter PvE missions. If you're only interested in PvP, you wont need to venture beyond that after the introductory mission.

 

[Victrix]

Normal Crucible is a casual PvP activity. Akin to Normal level Strikes. A PvP equivalent to Raiding would be something like a Ranked PvP mode where teams above a certain performance level get guaranteed loot rewards. And allowing a Matchmaking mode to such a PvP activity would be terrible as the random teams would get slaughtered and never really succeed while the organized teams get fed free ranking.

Such a hardcore PvP activity like say... Iron Banner? Perhaps they should remove matchmaking from there?

(also the implication that PvP itself is 'casual' is pretty hilarious)

Because you can be certain that GAF members have a specific level of investment. You can actively write out what it is that you're looking for in a post and receive replies based on those specifications. If you were to get randomly matchmade with people.. you have no idea of their level of skill, commitment, maturity, or their goals. GAF is a community of avid gamers. We are Enthusiast level players, even if some of us aren't as skilled as others. A completely open pool of players to matchmake will be filled with people varying wildly from extreme casual who doesn't realize was a Raid even is all the way through to Hardcore. However most players will skew towards Casual as that's the bulk of players in nearly every game.

You think it's a good idea to exclude 'the bulk of players' from the raid?

Oh and funny story about gaf's community of avid gamers, know how I got my Relic weapon in FFXIV 2.0 when it launched? A group of randoms. After failing for two weeks with my gaf clan.

There just aren't any good arguments for removing matchmaking, they invariably boil down to some crude level of "fuck you, got mine" (I look forward to someone posting about progression content here at some point), or fears about the content being nerfed (why nerf it when they can set up a spectrum of difficulty levels from filthy matchmaking casual to anointed mlg son?).

Anyway, this is probably a lot of sound and fury over nothing. You can be sure that they'll do some combination down the road of adding matchmaking/nerfing the raid/adding more difficulty levels - I can't see them willfully roadblocking content their designers spent months of time putting together from the majority of their fanbase. Maybe it'll be on launch, maybe it'll be after world first (1!!1) videos on youtube, maybe it'll be when raid tier 2 electric boogaloo comes out.

 

[pharmboy044]

This whole thing makes no sense. So essentially, if you have no friends to raid with, you're meant to go around and find 5 strangers online willing to raid with you? How is that different from meeting five strangers via the matchmaking function? You'll just be doing the process manually instead of the game doing it for you. What a waste of time.

Uhhmmm, there's this message board called NeoGAF. Maybe people can, you know, talk and get together there for raids?

 

[syko de4d]

That's awesome. LFR is the worst thing to happen to WoW.

a WoW without LFR and any kind of text chat would be pretty horrible. I could have lived without LFR in wow but even without a guild and LFG chat? That would have been pretty sad.
The best way to play destiny will be to have a Laptop next to you with Clan Teamspeak server and an IRC Chat xD

 

[Maintenance]

So 6 randoms, with subpar voice communication, subpar gear, and subpar skill can do what a top-of-the-line Clan couldn't do in 16 hours?

And you will be able to do, since you are better than a top-of-the-line Clan, right? Smh.



Also, the atitude that I'm seeing here is so similar to the ones from WoW forums that I used to be a part of (like mmo-champion), that I can't help but laugh. One term that they used a lot and I think it is perfect here is "special snowflake". I'm seeing a lot of those here.

Prime example of it here:

Lower-quality rewards if you play and win with randoms.

 

[Pastry]

Uhhmmm, there's this message board called NeoGAF. Maybe people can, you know, talk and get together there for raids?

So instead of building a random matchmaking system we are forced to go out and find random people on message boards. Totally not the same thing.

 

[GhaleonEB]

PVP isn't *meant* be played by strangers either, nor are the co-op modes in just about every game.

Matchmaking here would end up with a mix of parties with less than six players and individuals who don't have friends with the game or don't want to deal with a clan. Put those people together and sometimes you really can forge a quality team, especially over hours of gameplay. Hell, it seems perfectly designed to turn a team of casual players into a unified force.

I'm very much split on how I feel about the decision to not allow matchmaking, but given that the raid will take hours to beat, I can see some of the logic in removing it. A couple of randoms dropping at any time during the raid could torpedo the entire team, and that is something that would likely happen a very large percentage of the time, wreaking it for everyone. I've been in too many sessions of PvP and PvE (primarily Halo) where a player or two dropping led to a snowballing in the degree to which the matchmade team was screwed. Gathering up only friends, from your friends list or clan, establishes a different relationship and set of expectations from players. You're more likely to lose due to being defeated, rather than abandoned. With matchmaking the situation will often be reversed.

Again, I'm not totally sold on its removal for this reason. I think it would be nice to have as a fallback. But I think the notion of matchmade teams of randoms forming a bond and conquering will be not especially common (which is not to say it won't happen). I'd expect most hours-long raids with randoms to end with drops, curses and great frustration.

 

[mickcenary]

Ehhhhh. I don't like this. I have two IRL friends who might pick this up and I really don't want to have to coordinate with fellow Aussies on Gaf and elsewhere to get a game going. I just don't care that much. I've never been one to plug in a headset and tee up games with mates and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

It's disappointing, because it sounds like this is where the real meat of the game is. I guess I'm on track to being a Destiny vegan.

 

[Karl Hawk]

Wut

Visions? They showed almost exactly what you described in a trailer!



Not sure I understand, why should doing something that is even more challenging yield lower quality rewards? If they bother to create an option, why would they discourage people from using it?

And you will be able to do, since you are better than a top-of-the-line Clan, right? Smh.



Also, the atitude that I'm seeing here is so similar to the ones from WoW forums that I used to be a part of (like mmo-champion), that I can't help but laugh. One term that they used a lot and I think it is perfect here is "special snowflake". I'm seeing a lot of those here.

Prime example of it here:

Okay, how about a different difficulty mode for Matchmade Raid?

 

[Gaz_RB]

I don't really mind, but I'm just not sure why they wouldn't have matchmaking in it. To use FF14 as an example-I never actually plan to beat Titan Ex through Duty Finder(mtachmaking), but it is a really good learning tool and maybe you can find some friends to group up with. Though I suppose you can find friends through the other activities as you play through the game, and then jump in to the raid with friends you've made along the way.

Okay, how about a different difficulty mode for Matchmade Raid?

I don't think that is a very good idea, either.

 

[Afrocious]

What I'm wondering is how prevalent will Destiny GAF be on the PS3 version? I'm unfortunately having to sell my PS4, and I'll be playing Destiny on my PS3 til the sun rises.

 

[LowParry]

I wouldn't have a real big issue if I had a way in game to get groups together. I suppose relying on this and the DestinyGAF forums will do. I don't like it but it is what it is. My bigger issue is, what class I'm playing.

 

[Nokagi]

Because those people will complain about how the Raid is bad and broken, forcing Bungie's hand to dumb down the difficulty.

I know, I know, they should make a matchmaking system for randoms, but only with the following conditions:
Voice chat should be enabled
Warning message about the Raid's difficulty and it requires teamwork and coordination.
Lower-quality rewards if you play and win with randoms.

Actually you should get higher quality rewards with randoms. Because if people defending this are to be believed then playing with randoms is insanely more difficult. So much so that's not even worth putting in the game!

 

[Maintenance]

Okay, how about a different difficulty mode for Matchmade Raid?

That would be totally acceptable, like most MMOs do. A lower difficulty mode with lower gear, that's fine. The same difficulty mode with lower gear, that's bullshit.

 

[EekTheKat]

I suspect given that Strike matchmaking in the beta had "EVALUATING GUARDIANS" as one of the messages that came up while searching for people, Bungie's matchmaking does in fact have weighted filters so they're not just randomly throwing people together in strikes.

I'd imagine it would be possible to create a matchmaking filter that filters out people that does not meet a certain criteria. Just set a baseline gear or cleared strikes requirement.

Given how the weapon stats have looked from weapon to weapon in the same level range, they clearly have a weighted balance system in place as well.

During my time in the beta I couldn't find a votekick system in place (a votekick system if haphazardly implemented could open up new ways of abuse).

Destiny's Raid in its current state probably doesn't have half the ingame tools a full on MMO has to manage a random large scale encounter. Eventually they'll probably get around to it if they're hemorrhaging players in the end game from a lack of content.

 

[krypt0nian]

Good choice, Bungie. Completely support this. Wow was eventually forced to dumb down thier endgame because people complained that they weren't handled gear.

 

[CloudyTuba]

Luke himself even said:

The Vault of Glass is in many ways an activity that will build groups from the disparate people who come together to try and make their way through it. It's very much a team-building exercise.

Why can this disparate group only start from your Friends List, a Bungie.net thread, or GAF?

Yup. Says that the raid is a team-building exercise bringing strangers together, but then the team is expected to be built already before showing up. Wut?

If Bungie's stance is, "too bad for you, we want to preserve the activity goals" then I guess eventually my stance may become, "too bad for you, I want to play a game that isn't hostile to me for not having 5 people ready to play all the time."

But yes, since there is no way to recruit in game, match making is all there is. We can't sit there and recruit through chat because there is no chat.

Ehhhhh. I don't like this. I have two IRL friends who might pick this up and I really don't want to have to coordinate with fellow Aussies on Gaf and elsewhere to get a game going. I just don't care that much. I've never been one to plug in a headset and tee up games with mates and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

It's disappointing, because it sounds like this is where the real meat of the game is. I guess I'm on track to being a Destiny vegan.

Nope you're not.

 

[Maintenance]

Destiny's Raid in its current state probably doesn't have half the ingame tools a full on MMO has to manage a random large scale encounter. Eventually they'll probably get around to it if they're hemorrhaging players in the end game from a lack of content.

The problem with this is, people already paid for the game. On a sub MMO like WoW, if the endgame is shit people will leave and they will bleed money, because they will not get that many subscriptions. But here, people will have already paid for the game, and the only thing left is some DLC.

Some people may argue that a lack of easily accessible endgame content may turn off players from the next game or from buying more DLC. It could happen, but it won't because a lot people will be praising the game as the second coming of baby Jesus, so it will even out the noise, eventually completely blocking it.


EDIT:

If Bungie's stance is, "too bad for you, we want to preserve the activity goals" then I guess eventually my stance may become, "too bad for you, I want to play a game that isn't hostile to me for not having 5 people ready to play all the time."

This is fucking gold, nice.


EDIT2: It saddens me to see stuff like these because Destiny was my go-to game for the second half of the year, and was the only reason that I would buy a PS4 this year. I almost got one, and eventually things changed, but I still missed being able to play it. However, seeing all this stuff coming lately from the game disappoints me so much.

 

[ultron87]

During my time in the beta I couldn't find a votekick system in place (a votekick system if haphazardly implemented could open up new ways of abuse).

Destiny's Raid in its current state probably doesn't have half the ingame tools a full on MMO has to manage a random large scale encounter. Eventually they'll probably get around to it if they're hemorrhaging players in the end game from a lack of content.

This is a good point. Random groups can be fine, but they also do expose you to more jerks/trolls. If there isn't a way to kick someone out of a group it'll be extremely easy for someone to ruin an otherwise lovely time. Though this seems like it could totally be a problem with the Strike missions right now as well. There were definitely times in the Beta strike where a player stayed behind in the initial zone for way longer and didn't show up to help till we were well into that first wave event. I don't think there was any way to reprimand them for this besides voice chat.

 

[Metra]

If Bungie's stance is, "too bad for you, we want to preserve the activity goals" then I guess eventually my stance may become, "too bad for you, I want to play a game that isn't hostile to me for not having 5 people ready to play all the time.

I feel the same.

-----------------------------------

Also, I appreciate Luke's answer (I'm assuming you're from Bungie, Luke; I don't know you - forgive me), but I don't think this approach is user friendly. Manual matchmaking will be a hassle for a lot of players, and they won't be able to enjoy an important part of the game - despite paying for it. There's a lot of good suggestions in this thread, I hope you reconsider your stance.

 

[WinFonda]

What do you think will happen after Bungie allows matchmaking for the raid, and hundreds of thousands, if not millions of players flood into the raid, and 99+% of them get completely wrecked

I think people are more likely to complain about not getting a fair chance to play part of the game they paid for, than for some nebulous difficulty which is apparently not all that difficult on normal. And really, I don't care if people whine on their forums. They probably don't either. That's why they exist.

But anyway, read Luke's post, it sounds like a normal difficulty raid isn't especially more difficult than a strike. It just takes longer to finish. So basically, the hard thing about a raid is getting 6 people to play it for 3 hrs. And it's true, it's a lot easier to get a matchmade team than coordinating a night off with 5 other people who all have Destiny, and all have the content available. You erected a barrier. Good job. There's no arguing that.

I feel like they don't want to support matchmaking because they'd have to allow replacement joins, and so some people would get relatively quick or easy runs. Basically Raids on normal aren't that hard and they want to preserve the time consuming nature of it, and matchmaking undermines that somewhat. I guess. The solution there would be to dole out rewards intermittently throughout checkpoints during the raid. I guess because matchmaking always fits our personal schedules, it's "too easy" according to Bungie.

 

[viveks86]

Will I need to do a 2 hour raid every week in order to get the best sniper rifle? I don't want to be forced to PvE in order to PvP.

Each mode has equivalent rewards. If PvP is your thing, you can rest assured that you will get the best sniper rifles there. Of course, if you want them all, then you need to master all the modes

 

[Mutagenic]

Thanks for making me do the work of assembling a team that basic matchmaking would have solved for me, and has for multiple games in the past.

 

[valkillmore]

gud

 

[Valnen]

I don't have 5 friends who will play this game. So effectively I'm locked out of content I paid for unless I'm willing to go out of my way and recruit people I don't know outside the game entirely. That's not good game design and makes me not want to pay $60 for your product.

 

[Daemul]

The Vault of Glass is in many ways an activity that will build groups from the disparate people who come together to try and make their way through it. It's very much a team-building exercise.

This sounds like the entire purpose of matchmaking to me.

 

[GraveRobberX]

I really do think Raids should be done with friends/associate (GAFfers) who you can at least try to get through the Raid content

If matchmaking is thrown in and the way I have seen randoms act in Strike missions, I really don't want that frustration ten fold

I could get on the mic and tell to 2 random strangers that to hit the Devil Walkers legs and once they blow up a piece (6 pieces in total), his core will be exposed to do massive damage, the response I see is them being 2 miles away from the boss shooting their sniper rifles on the head and doing basic damage or the #YOLO player who will run up to it and try to shotty/melee and get owned so fucking bad with the surcharge shield blast the Devil Walker has

Then there are those that just camp an area and get massacred by adds, because why kill those random enemies, I mean the reason they are there because they are trash, not because if we kill them they replenish our ammo count also stop them from annoying/killing us

I don't have 5 friends who will play this game. So effectively I'm locked out of content I paid for unless I'm willing to go out of my way and recruit people I don't know outside the game entirely. That's not good game design and makes me not want to pay $60 for your product.

If you are on PS4, you have me

Hell just having me on your FL is a goddamn benefit!
I jump into so many peoples game in Destiny to play with them, and when things really pick at night, fireteams are created and GAF steamroll the Crucible for hours

I've been in parties with GAF EU, NA, AZN, GAF Timezone EST, CST, PST

 

[Victrix]

I really do think Raids should be done with friends/associate (GAFfers) who you can at least try to get through the Raid content

Sure, want me to blow your fucking mind?

Click the Join Raid With GAF Clan button

Wait, it doesn't exist?

Drat.

But it could!

 

[CloudyTuba]

This sounds like the entire purpose of matchmaking to me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPcod8IS214

Definitely against this decision.

 

[viveks86]

Yup. Says that the raid is a team-building exercise bringing strangers together, but then the team is expected to be built already before showing up. Wut?

A team building exercise isn't a place where teams are formed amongst strangers. It's a place where formed teams are trained to work efficiently by establishing trust, building on each other's strengths etc. It's a term commonly used in office environments, often involving people who already know each other. So his usage of the term is right. I'm not sure if I agree or disagree with his stance, though

 

[Kagoshima_Luke]

Visions? They showed almost exactly what you described in a trailer!

Just googled it and saw what you are talking about. lol That's crazy.

 

[RiccochetJ]

I would definitely like to be able to check out this content. Hopefully the people I know will be getting this game.

 

[Sevyne]

Sure, want me to blow your fucking mind?

Click the Join Raid With GAF Clan button

Wait, it doesn't exist?

Drat.

But it could!

That's another thing I find baffling. What is even the point of Clans if the game doesn't even have an option to see Clanmates and invite/join them? Even with Clans you still have to add them to your console friend list which seems ridiculous.

 

[aristotle]

While this does indeed suck for those of us who won't be able to get 5 friends playing at the same time, I think it's best at the beginning. Once the raid(s) get tuned after a few months, I have faith they'll eventually open it up to matchmaking. That's the way it worked with WoW.

I'm sure it'll come eventually. Let's face it, there will be a ton of tuning in the raid encounters based on the groups that get through it or the inability to get through it.

 

[TheDarkKnight774]

Good. I've been raiding for years on wow and while a flex raid was ok In concept the raids had to be so nerfed to then be a waste of time.

This lets me know the raids will actually be worth my time, require coordination and will have challenge.

Heroic/strike is good for ransoms but any raid worth anything should not.

I dot have 5 friends to raid with but I'll find a raid guild and be good to go.

I can't think of how this is a bad thing unless you've never done MMO like raids. And if you got your wish of ransoms for the raids I'm sure you'd hate it.

 

[ultron87]

And remember you don't just need five friends that have Destiny. You need five friends that get to max level and then participate in a bunch of the end game content first to gear up.

 

[shinobi602]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding but why can't it be an option? Can't there be matchmaking as well as friend parties or playing with a dedicated team? Why one or the other?

 

[TheDarkKnight774]

And remember you don't just need five friends that have Destiny. You need five friends that get to max level and then participate in a bunch of the end game content first to gear up.

They don't have to be friends and of course you need the top gear. It's the hardest co op challenge in the game.


Seriously has nobody raided before? Why does it seem so many don't understand the game type.

 

[Victrix]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding but why can't it be an option? Can't there be matchmaking as well as friend parties or playing with a dedicated team? Why one or the other?

 

[Mindlog]

They don't have to be friends and of course you need the top gear. It's the hardest co op challenge in the game.


Seriously has nobody raided before? Why does it seem so many don't understand the game type.

Probably because Destiny has so few MMORPG elements until it abruptly does.

 

[computers putin']

Lame. I'd prefer this mode to have matchmaking, if I decide to go into any gamemode with random players and I wipe then it's my decision and my time wasted, I don't wan't a game deciding I shouldn't play with randoms for me. Believe it or not, occasionally you do get put on a team with other good players who know how to work together ( and not just by communicating, but by taking in visual cues too) and I feel like that happens more often than most would like to believe.

 

[viveks86]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding but why can't it be an option? Can't there be matchmaking as well as friend parties or playing with a dedicated team? Why one or the other?

I have a feeling that it is more of a technical issue than an ideological issue. May be the raid REQUIRES every member of the team to be present at all times and if anyone drops out, the raid becomes impossible to complete. Ensuring that amongst a group of strangers is impossible and may simply break the game for the rest. The person who left would have no accountability and the people playing would have no one to blame except Bungie. Though I don't see that being articulated in Luke's post, I'm starting to think that is the rationale behind it.

 

[kittens]

And remember you don't just need five friends that have Destiny. You need five friends that get to max level and then participate in a bunch of the end game content first to gear up.

So?

I really don't see what the big deal about any of this is. A lot of games have content that's intentionally hard to access. Many games aim to be challenging, and many require you to team up with friends to succeed. That sort of challenge is nothing new, and it sounds fantastic to me.

 

[New002]

That's unfortunate. I would rather they just give us the option

 

[NullPointer]

I'm very much split on how I feel about the decision to not allow matchmaking, but given that the raid will take hours to beat, I can see some of the logic in removing it. A couple of randoms dropping at any time during the raid could torpedo the entire team, and that is something that would likely happen a very large percentage of the time, wreaking it for everyone. I've been in too many sessions of PvP and PvE (primarily Halo) where a player or two dropping led to a snowballing in the degree to which the matchmade team was screwed. Gathering up only friends, from your friends list or clan, establishes a different relationship and set of expectations from players. You're more likely to lose due to being defeated, rather than abandoned. With matchmaking the situation will often be reversed.

I can definitely understand where you're coming from, and those are the risks of matchmaking right there, though joining a clan comes with its own potential pitfalls as well via its dramas and responsibilities.

I definitely prefer to play with my friends whenever possible, but there aren't six of us and we've been burned by other clans just about every time we've joined em, including GAF clans.

So this content really does look off limits at the moment.

 

[ultron87]

They don't have to be friends and of course you need the top gear. It's the hardest co op challenge in the game.


Seriously has nobody raided before? Why does it seem so many don't understand the game type.

I've raided in games that actually have features in the game that facilitate communicating with people and grouping up. Never done it in one where your main methods for getting people together are a pre-existing friends list and forums.

If you and your five buddies buy Destiny with the goal of raiding and then Steven gets bored and stops playing at all when you only just started doing the high level strikes you are essentially dead in the water for those plans. You can't go "LF1M Vault of Glass". You can't check an LFG board to find a replacement Steve.

 

[aristotle]

They don't have to be friends and of course you need the top gear. It's the hardest co op challenge in the game.


Seriously has nobody raided before? Why does it seem so many don't understand the game type.

I dread the day when there a ton of topics on here complaining about the raid and how unfair it is. :lol

I never raided in WoW for a reason. It's extremely hard to get everything lined up to play a raid and complete it.

 

[Jabba]

Good. I've been raiding for years on wow and while a flex raid was ok In concept the raids had to be so nerfed to then be a waste of time.

This lets me know the raids will actually be worth my time, require coordination and will have challenge.

Heroic/strike is good for ransoms but any raid worth anything should not.

I dot have 5 friends to raid with but I'll find a raid guild and be good to go.

I can't think of how this is a bad thing unless you've never done MMO like raids. And if you got your wish of ransoms for the raids I'm sure you'd hate it.

I've had extensive experience with randoms. I'm sure many gaffers have also. If you don't want the experience you describe, don't use matchmaking. For many players matchmaking would be fine.

City of Heroes had Task force missions that lasted hours and were difficult but allowed you to fill in a person if they couldn't comply for the whole raid. They even allowed the team to log out and finish over a few play sessions.

I really don't agree with this decision. Later when people find out they can't do some of the content, there'll be plenty of complaints on their forums and Bungie may have to do something. Regardless if they put matchmaking in, Bungie should stick to their guns on raiding difficulty.

 

[AusRoachman]

Great so even more content is locked away from me because I can't regularly find 6 ppl to play with .

I also have no way to talk to people in the tower to let them know I want to try the raid , so basically a huge part if the game is locked out.