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[Negotiator]

That's what they did with base PS4/XB1 that shit was underclocked to kingdom come, 50% of the compute units were disabled even (36 --> 18 on PS4), CPU was a default one and not even the most expensive of Jaguars (1.6Ghz, max was 2.0Ghz).

What? No. They had 20 CUs on the chip and only 2 of them were disabled. Same for XB1 (14 -> 12 CUs).

Regarding Jaguar, there are no "expensive" variants. It's a combination of TDP/balance/cooling solution. 2 GHz Jaguars @ 28nm are quad-core ones, not octa-core (2 x TDP) like on consoles. Not to mention that they have very weak GPUs compared to console APUs, so this definitely drops down TDP quite a bit.

Bumping up CPU clocks would overheat the chip, unless they decreased GPU clocks. OG PS4 already sounds like a jet engine @ 1.6 GHz.

OG XB1 had marginally faster clocks, because it had a better (but more bulky) cooling solution. X also has a marginally faster CPU (+170 MHz) compared to Pro, thanks to a better cooling solution. We're already in diminishing returns territory when it comes to Jaguar uArch.

The OG 28nm Xbone die was even larger than Scopio's, while the OG PS4's was within spitting distance. The amount of silicon isn't adding $100.

Yeap, people's minds would be blown if they knew that the OG XB1 APU cost 10% more than the OG PS4 APU and yet, OG XB1 was weaker than the OG PS4.

Pretty sure the X APU doesn't cost more than the OG XB1 APU, even though it's a lot more powerful (due to better engineering decisions this time around).

I don't see them using GDDR6 next gen. I wonder if they'll even go above 16GB next gen.

32GB GDDR6 at worst, 64GB HBM3 at best.

Anything less than 32GB does not deserve to be called a true next-gen console.

Also Sony could use a normal BD drive for the base model and UHD for Pro --> $15 saved.

I reckon UHD/BDXL is going to become a standard next-gen (PS5), unless people don't mind downloading 50GB day 1 patches due to 4k assets

Spoiler

(Forza 7 says hi).

AMD's 7nm is more like 10nm. 7nm+ is true 7nm. 2019 is too soon. Expect PS5 holiday 2020 at the earliest, holiday 2021 at the latest. Holiday 2021 would be preferable from a technology/price standpoint. Also give devs time to recoup cost this gen and roll on to next. I'm hoping for 5nm and a holiday 2021 release. AMD's Mega Apu and Stacked ram might be a possibility by then.

2020+ is OK for me. I can wait. Lots of delayed games around. Devs surely need some breathing room.

Sure, but...

http://www.ign.com/articles/2016/10/04/comparing-the-price-of-every-game-console-with-inflation



$450 is about where we should be today at most.

Lots of things have changed since the 70s though.

Manufacturing going to China (lower costs), wage stagnation (productivity is increasing faster than wages), global recession etc etc.

The progress of technology really helps too. Consoles like NES have very simplistic electronics, even for their era. NES didn't have a cooling solution, it had an ancient CPU (MOS 6502 was made in 1975 <-- 10 year old technology, worse than what we have today with Jaguar) and it only consumed 10 watts (that's like mobile territory). Nobody complained back then though

Spoiler

(because internet/forums/beastly PCs didn't exist ).

About memory DDR5 is not good?

No, unless you fancy going back to eSRAM/eDRAM (less transistors for the GPU).

True but for Pro they did add 1GB slower RAM if i remember right .
Still of course all of this will depend on what type RAM they using , the set up and the price RAM will be at then

That's a separate pool of RAM, which is attached to the southbridge chip. Even OG PS4 had 256MB of DDR3 RAM. They merely made it bigger for the Pro and maybe they added a faster/better ARM CPU as well.

 

[hanspampel]

What? No. They had 20 CUs on the chip and only 2 of them were disabled. Same for XB1 (14 -> 12 CUs).

Regarding Jaguar, there are no "expensive" variants. It's a combination of TDP/balance/cooling solution. 2 GHz Jaguars @ 28nm are quad-core ones, not octa-core (2 x TDP) like on consoles. Not to mention that they have very weak GPUs compared to console APUs, so this definitely drops down TDP quite a bit.

Bumping up CPU clocks would overheat the chip, unless they decreased GPU clocks. OG PS4 already sounds like a jet engine @ 1.6 GHz.

OG XB1 had marginally faster clocks, because it had a better (but more bulky) cooling solution. X also has a marginally faster CPU (+170 MHz) compared to Pro, thanks to a better cooling solution. We're already in diminishing returns territory when it comes to Jaguar uArch.

You sure on that?
thought that would be 200MHz

Pro's CPU is 2.13 GHz = 2130 MHz.

lol so just like the RAM
go with round numbers please, Sony

 

[Negotiator]

You sure on that?
thought that would be 200MHz

Pro's CPU is 2.13 GHz = 2130 MHz.

 

[Eylos]

About graphics cards PS4 used a one year old overclocked low tier from AMD right, so If 2020 is right we should expect a oc Low tier version of 2019 AMD card.

 

[thelastword]

I don't think $499.99 is out of the loop for a console.....I think it all depends on when...If it's a new generation with cutting edge hardware (like PS2-PS3 or OGXB-XB360), I think you can ask for $500.00 and reduce prices as you progress, with your slim version etc...

The problem with XBONEX is that it's a mid gen refresh at $500 when the competing console is at $400.00 offering the same ballpark visuals and rendering techniques...It's too far into the console generation to be asking for such an amount....At this point 3-4 yrs into the generation, people are looking into cheaper prices, slim versions etc.. and if you're are going to have a mid-gen console you have to save cost where it matter most for gamers....

I think MS have tried to push some hardware features that have not jived or was not necessary this gen and this is what have pushed their console pricing beyond the marketable limit....Kinect and Media capabilities pushed the XB1 beyond it's acceptable marketable standards in 2013....XBONEX is now touted with a vapor chamber, UHD Drive, 12 GB of GDDR5, 8GB of flash, 7200rpm Drive, but is all of that necessary and will it make a huge difference in the marketplace for the next 3 years till PS5?

I don't think the vapor chamber was necessary, they don't even have one on the GTX1070 and that's much faster and more high end than what's in the XBONEX. I don't think the UHD drive was necessary....adoption rate for 4k TV's and UHD has not hit the mainstream yet.....The faster HD-drive was not necessary also, as people are putting faster SSD's and 4TB externals on these consoles anyway.

I think the 8GB flash memory is a neat idea, but was it necessary for a mid-gen refresh? I think the only way MS could have justified $500.00 is if they had Zen. A UHD drive is a waste on a console in 2017, when most people will just stream their shows in 4k, that's if they have a 4k tv that is....it should have never been a priority. The vapor chamber sounds nice, but perhaps these costs could have gone to a better CPU or even a higher clocked GPU.....with standard cooling.

 

[Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew]

Next-gen will still be $500 max. Believe that, playa. Technology will get cheaper and better in the next 2 years.

Sweet spot would be $400-$450.

 

[Lom1lo]

I don't think $499.99 is out of the loop for a console.....I think it all depends on when...If it's a new generation with cutting edge hardware (like PS2-PS3 or OGXB-XB360), I think you can ask for $500.00 and reduce prices as you progress, with your slim version etc...

The problem with XBONEX is that it's a mid gen refresh at $500 when the competing console is at $400.00 offering the same ballpark visuals and rendering techniques...It's too far into the console generation to be asking for such an amount....At this point 3-4 yrs into the generation, people are looking into cheaper prices, slim versions etc.. and if you're are going to have a mid-gen console you have to save cost where it matter most for gamers....

I think MS have tried to push some hardware features that have not jived or was not necessary this gen and this is what have pushed their console pricing beyond the marketable limit....Kinect and Media capabilities pushed the XB1 beyond it's acceptable marketable standards in 2013....XBONEX is now touted with a vapor chamber, UHD Drive, 12 GB of GDDR5, 8GB of flash, 7200rpm Drive, but is all of that necessary and will it make a huge difference in the marketplace for the next 3 years till PS5?

I don't think the vapor chamber was necessary, they don't even have one on the GTX1070 and that's much faster and more high end than what's in the XBONEX. I don't think the UHD drive was necessary....adoption rate for 4k TV's and UHD has not hit the mainstream yet.....The faster HD-drive was not necessary also, as people are putting faster SSD's and 4TB externals on these consoles anyway.

I think the 8GB flash memory is a neat idea, but was it necessary for a mid-gen refresh? I think the only way MS could have justified $500.00 is if they had Zen. A UHD drive is a waste on a console in 2017, when most people will just stream their shows in 4k, that's if they have a 4k tv that is....it should have never been a priority. The vapor chamber sounds nice, but perhaps these costs could have gone to a better CPU or even a higher clocked GPU.....with standard cooling.

Just a few questions:

I though the flash memory is in the regular xbox too ?
Dont they need this vapor chamber stuff to cool this thing in such a small box ?
Zen at this point would place this thing higher than 500 or not ?

 

[ethomaz]

I don't see them using GDDR6 next gen. I wonder if they'll even go above 16GB next gen.

GDDR6 is what will be in GPUs in 2018 and going forward.

So that is what will be on PS5.

 

[ethomaz]

I know It sux to explain, but


Hbm3 x gdrr6 x DDR5

Whats best?

First DDR5 is not a thing yet... DDR4 has more 5 years in the market before they add something else.

But DDR4 is a low latency memory with slow speeds... mostly to be used in CPU tasks... the same can be said about DDR5.

The use of DDR4/DDR5 will probably require some type of fast cache like eSRAM... that is not an option after MS tried without luck.

So it left GDDR6 or HBM2 (I will left HBM3 out too):

- GDDR6 is basically a new name for GDDR5x... it is cheaper with high use by GPU foundries... there is no issue with the tech and it could go up to 1GB/s with a 384bits bus in the future... it implementation is simple and pretty cheap.

- HBM2 is a on die memory that requires high complex production process... so the design of APU needs to take in mind some part for the memory... it has high speeds over 1GB/s that are IMO not needed in games for the next 5 years or more. It is expensive and hard to implement.

To be fair the simple and cheaper GDDR6 is the best option for consoles... with HBM2 you will need to trade die size to use with memory instead GPU units... it is the same issue as eSRAM.

 

[thelastword]

Just a few questions:

I though the flash memory is in the regular xbox too ?
Yes, but is it necessary?, as they've already upped the speed of the regular HDD...

Dont they need this vapor chamber stuff to cool this thing in such a small box ?
Smallest XBOX, but not the smallest console tbh, regular cooling would save quite a bit here...It's not like the CPU and GPU are overclocked significantly over the PRO's CPU and GPU...

Zen at this point would place this thing higher than 500 or not ?

There's no doubt they would likely eat the costs of zen to sell it at $500.00, but at least the majority of titles would be at 60fps (multiplatform especially)..That would have been a big boon over the competitor and justify the price either way.

Bolded above.

 

[Negotiator]

I don't think $499.99 is out of the loop for a console.....I think it all depends on when...If it's a new generation with cutting edge hardware (like PS2-PS3 or OGXB-XB360), I think you can ask for $500.00 and reduce prices as you progress, with your slim version etc...

The problem with XBONEX is that it's a mid gen refresh at $500 when the competing console is at $400.00 offering the same ballpark visuals and rendering techniques...It's too far into the console generation to be asking for such an amount....At this point 3-4 yrs into the generation, people are looking into cheaper prices, slim versions etc.. and if you're are going to have a mid-gen console you have to save cost where it matter most for gamers....

I think MS have tried to push some hardware features that have not jived or was not necessary this gen and this is what have pushed their console pricing beyond the marketable limit....Kinect and Media capabilities pushed the XB1 beyond it's acceptable marketable standards in 2013....XBONEX is now touted with a vapor chamber, UHD Drive, 12 GB of GDDR5, 8GB of flash, 7200rpm Drive, but is all of that necessary and will it make a huge difference in the marketplace for the next 3 years till PS5?

I don't think the vapor chamber was necessary, they don't even have one on the GTX1070 and that's much faster and more high end than what's in the XBONEX. I don't think the UHD drive was necessary....adoption rate for 4k TV's and UHD has not hit the mainstream yet.....The faster HD-drive was not necessary also, as people are putting faster SSD's and 4TB externals on these consoles anyway.

I think the 8GB flash memory is a neat idea, but was it necessary for a mid-gen refresh? I think the only way MS could have justified $500.00 is if they had Zen. A UHD drive is a waste on a console in 2017, when most people will just stream their shows in 4k, that's if they have a 4k tv that is....it should have never been a priority. The vapor chamber sounds nice, but perhaps these costs could have gone to a better CPU or even a higher clocked GPU.....with standard cooling.

8GB flash is also included in OG XB1. It probably costs pennies, so not a big deal.

I agree with the rest of your points (minus the vapor chamber one, which is needed for a small box). I don't care about media capabilities at all TBH. Times have changed. I can understand why DVD helped PS2 to succeed, but we have broadband internet and streaming these days. Hell, I don't even use standard Blu-Ray movies. Sony won the Blu-Ray vs HD-DVD war, but nobody cares anymore and rightly so.

In fact, I think Nintendo is probably the wisest of all of them for not including Blu-Ray royalties, let alone 4k UHD. I want a pure gaming machine. BDXL discs are only useful if devs need them for 4k assets (~100GB games like Forza 7) and that's not gonna become standard until PS5 at the earliest. 12GB was overkill for an iterative console and it's gonna make people really mad if they have to download mandatory 50GB day 1 patches, even if they have a 1080p TV and/or OG XB1/Slim. Don't forget that USA ISPs (USA is fortress XBOX, just like Europe is fortress PlayStation) are notorious for enforcing ridiculous monthly caps. I think it would be more beneficial to use it as a cache (unpatched games will do that, but patched games like Gears of War 4 will use the extra RAM for 4k textures).

Regarding vapor chamber, I don't know if it's as expensive as people think it is (it's definitely not as expensive/bulky as watercooling), but apparently it's also being used in laptops as well: https://www.maketecheasier.com/what-is-vapor-chamber-cooling/

 

[F34R]

I'm NOT paying $500 for a 1TB drive version. Hell no. My Gears LE was $449 and came with a 2TB drive. 2TB or bust for me.

 

[DarkConfidant]

$399.

They will take a loss, but $500 will be a mistake that both major console makers won't repeat.

 

[Lom1lo]

Bolded above.

well the only smaller console is a ps4 slim, so I think its worth it.

To zen, yes Im with you. honestly I would have paid 600 if this would bring me 60 fps in all games.

 

[Reg]

$399.

They will take a loss, but $500 will be a mistake that both major console makers won't repeat.

Lets meet half way and say $450 USD.

 

[TheHellsLord]

The Xbox One X is targeted at people who already own 4K-TVs. They don't intend to replace the base Model with it (similar to Sony who will keep selling more PS4 Slims for quite some time). There have been people who were quite outspoken on 4K being a missing feature. There is definitely a market for a 4K ready console. I'd say the UHD drive wasn't really necessary but given that they fitted that into the One S as well I'd guess it doesn't add that much to the overall price.

Speaking of the vapor chamber cooler. Microsoft are running the GPU at higher clocks than almost all existing AMD Radeon cards. This will cause them to heat up more. They likely would have had to use a bigger die otherwise to hit their performance goals and likely offset at least some of the savings for the cooler. Also a GTX 1070 is quite a huge card already - cooling that without one doesn't really tell us much. The regular GeForce coolers also tend to get quite loud under load (at least that's my experience with a 980 Ti).

Lastly on using custom Jaguar cores instead of Zen cores. Zen cores are much bigger than Jaguar cores. They would likely not be able to fit 4 Zens in the space of 8 Jaguars. The Zens would still outperform the Jaguars but it would likely also lead to issues in the code of existing games that is written to take advantage of 8 actual physical cores (actually rather 6 1/2 as the rest is reserved for the OS). Timing issues could come up when running those on only 4 even when making use of Simultaneous Multithreading (SMT) or as Intel calls it Hyperthreading.

 

[Falchion]

Hopefully the next generation of consoles is a long way off and they wait for the tech to drop so that something that actually feels like a big leap will be in the $400 range.

 

[easyheimer]

I honestly don't think we'll see "next gen" consoles for another 4 or 5 years. Maybe we don't even see next gen consoles anymore and just these new release "spec bump" consoles.

 

[AllIsOneIsNone]

Next-gen will still be $500 max. Believe that, playa. Technology will get cheaper and better in the next 2 years.

Sweet spot would be $400-$450.

It always gets cheaper and better. The problem as stated in the video is that it's getting cheaper and better slower these days. And because the Xbox X is already likely being sold at a loss, if there's a new generation within 3 years we won't see a big hardware jump especially if they decide to go $400. That's why I think next gen will be in 3 years minimum, and very likely pushed to $500.

 

[WoolyNinja]

I finally got a chance to watch the Digital Foundry video in the OP. I think his talk about how the Xbox One X is $100 more than the original 4 year old PS4 for less than a generational increase is interesting. It got me thinking about the 2 already existing iterations of the Xbox One.

I think Microsoft has really messed up with the Xbox One iterations by releasing the Xbox One S just a year ago as an upgrade to the Xbox One. The One S is now $250. I'm not sure you get 2x the value with the new Xbox One X. I own a 4k TV and its a very hard sell to convince me that being able to play 4k versions of the same games is worth double the price for a console. Especially when the One S can already play 4k video and 4K TVs do a damn good job of upscaling lower res content.

EDIT: so I guess my point is I think $400 should still be considered the sweet spot and they should've skipped the One S and released a console in between the original Xbox One and the One X @ $400

 

[jroc74]

I don't think $499.99 is out of the loop for a console.....I think it all depends on when...If it's a new generation with cutting edge hardware (like PS2-PS3 or OGXB-XB360), I think you can ask for $500.00 and reduce prices as you progress, with your slim version etc...

The problem with XBONEX is that it's a mid gen refresh at $500 when the competing console is at $400.00 offering the same ballpark visuals and rendering techniques...It's too far into the console generation to be asking for such an amount....At this point 3-4 yrs into the generation, people are looking into cheaper prices, slim versions etc.. and if you're are going to have a mid-gen console you have to save cost where it matter most for gamers....

I think MS have tried to push some hardware features that have not jived or was not necessary this gen and this is what have pushed their console pricing beyond the marketable limit....Kinect and Media capabilities pushed the XB1 beyond it's acceptable marketable standards in 2013....XBONEX is now touted with a vapor chamber, UHD Drive, 12 GB of GDDR5, 8GB of flash, 7200rpm Drive, but is all of that necessary and will it make a huge difference in the marketplace for the next 3 years till PS5?

I don't think the vapor chamber was necessary, they don't even have one on the GTX1070 and that's much faster and more high end than what's in the XBONEX. I don't think the UHD drive was necessary....adoption rate for 4k TV's and UHD has not hit the mainstream yet.....The faster HD-drive was not necessary also, as people are putting faster SSD's and 4TB externals on these consoles anyway.

I think the 8GB flash memory is a neat idea, but was it necessary for a mid-gen refresh? I think the only way MS could have justified $500.00 is if they had Zen. A UHD drive is a waste on a console in 2017, when most people will just stream their shows in 4k, that's if they have a 4k tv that is....it should have never been a priority. The vapor chamber sounds nice, but perhaps these costs could have gone to a better CPU or even a higher clocked GPU.....with standard cooling.

All this, plus the One X is coming out at the end of the year. When it launches it will be 2018 in a few months. They should probably launch it sooner. Like in a few months.

IMO, they should have just waited and made the One X next gen.

It really will be interesting to see how the Pro vs One X sales play out the next couple of years.

 

[Shin]

What? No.

Hehe I mixed up memory speed with clock speed and base PS4 GPU (7850+) with PS4P RX480.
CPU was downclocked from 2.0Ghz to 1.6Ghz on base and overclocked on PS4P/XBOX.
This should be it, I got even more depressed going through these.

 

[Negotiator]

$500 might be justified if they go back to the discrete CPU/GPU route.

 

[FinaruDensetsu]

$400

 

[funkystudent]

$400

10tflops

2019


Sony will be Sony and cheap out on cooling and skip the vaper chamber in favor of fans that sound let jet engines after 4 months,


TBH I just wonder how the CPU situation will change. I am not as clued into AMD CPU's. What would be the 2019 equivilent of a Jaguar? Something thats just not as good as you want?

 

[hanspampel]

Zen
AMD has nothing else anymore. Just Zen

 

[thelastword]

8GB flash is also included in OG XB1. It probably costs pennies, so not a big deal.

I agree with the rest of your points (minus the vapor chamber one, which is needed for a small box). I don't care about media capabilities at all TBH. Times have changed. I can understand why DVD helped PS2 to succeed, but we have broadband internet and streaming these days. Hell, I don't even use standard Blu-Ray movies. Sony won the Blu-Ray vs HD-DVD war, but nobody cares anymore and rightly so.

In fact, I think Nintendo is probably the wisest of all of them for not including Blu-Ray royalties, let alone 4k UHD. I want a pure gaming machine. BDXL discs are only useful if devs need them for 4k assets (~100GB games like Forza 7) and that's not gonna become standard until PS5 at the earliest. 12GB was overkill for an iterative console and it's gonna make people really mad if they have to download mandatory 50GB day 1 patches, even if they have a 1080p TV and/or OG XB1/Slim. Don't forget that USA ISPs (USA is fortress XBOX, just like Europe is fortress PlayStation) are notorious for enforcing ridiculous monthly caps. I think it would be more beneficial to use it as a cache (unpatched games will do that, but patched games like Gears of War 4 will use the extra RAM for 4k textures).

Regarding vapor chamber, I don't know if it's as expensive as people think it is (it's definitely not as expensive/bulky as watercooling), but apparently it's also being used in laptops as well: https://www.maketecheasier.com/what-is-vapor-chamber-cooling/

Fair points, however, every bit you can offset will reduce the footprint on a console you want to sell whilst also looking to penetrate the market. One part alone could not get them at say a $400.00 pricepoint, but a consolidation of savings gained on all the parts which are not outright necessary for a console...would...

well the only smaller console is a ps4 slim, so I think its worth it.

To zen, yes Im with you. honestly I would have paid 600 if this would bring me 60 fps in all games.

Precisely, the only way to justify a higher price is to make it a no brainer, but the focus has to be on the primary function of what you want to sell. Do not chuck extra hardware in there, that people don't exactly need or are pining for in the gaming space, or you're just increasing the price on the console and people will question why they should buy it so early. They will wait till it gets cheaper. Yes they may like the increased fidelity in XBONEX games, but they won't be able to justify it at that price, especially if they don't have a 4k tv yet...

A UHD drive is just a bulletpoint in 2017 anyway, I have a bluray drive on PS4 which I don't use. I have one game disc for PS4 (that's shadowfall) and recently I bought the digital copy on sale, so I don't even need the disc anymore. All my games are digital and I'd rather it be that way anyway, all my games are on the HDD and with pre-loading you're playing before the disc guy gets home from Walmart at 12:01 am..

The Xbox One X is targeted at people who already own 4K-TVs. They don't intend to replace the base Model with it (similar to Sony who will keep selling more PS4 Slims for quite some time). There have been people who were quite outspoken on 4K being a missing feature. There is definitely a market for a 4K ready console. I'd say the UHD drive wasn't really necessary but given that they fitted that into the One S as well I'd guess it doesn't add that much to the overall price.

Speaking of the vapor chamber cooler. Microsoft are running the GPU at higher clocks than almost all existing AMD Radeon cards. This will cause them to heat up more. They likely would have had to use a bigger die otherwise to hit their performance goals and likely offset at least some of the savings for the cooler. Also a GTX 1070 is quite a huge card already - cooling that without one doesn't really tell us much. The regular GeForce coolers also tend to get quite loud under load (at least that's my experience with a 980 Ti).

Lastly on using custom Jaguar cores instead of Zen cores. Zen cores are much bigger than Jaguar cores. They would likely not be able to fit 4 Zens in the space of 8 Jaguars. The Zens would still outperform the Jaguars but it would likely also lead to issues in the code of existing games that is written to take advantage of 8 actual physical cores (actually rather 6 1/2 as the rest is reserved for the OS). Timing issues could come up when running those on only 4 even when making use of Simultaneous Multithreading (SMT) or as Intel calls it Hyperthreading.

Primarily for 4k tv owners? They also tout the 1080p supersampling, which is important to 1080p TV owners going by outcry from the lack of it on some games on PRO... More precisely, just like PRO, a 4k tv will give you the best experience with IQ etc...but the clincher is you don't need a UHD drive to push 4k visuals for games on a console and this is one of the areas where Sony saved some dollars. As for what the UHD costs, it does add up or else Sony would have put it in and maintain a $400.00 pricepoint..The vapor chamber does add up or else MS would easily offer this console at $400.00 one year later against pro's debut. As I said prior, the clocks on XBONEX are not significant over the PS4 PRO to warrant much better cooling...

CPU = 2.13 GHz vs 2.3 GHz
GPU = 911Mhz vs 1172 MHz

Also, MS is not running Polaris at higher clocks over OTS Polaris PC cards, RX 480 is clocked at 1266 MHz and RX 580 much higher...

NV did not put in a vapor chamber on the 1070, because they wanted to save cost over the 1080 etc.....they wanted to offer the card below $400.00 MSRP...by extension, if you want better cooling and aftermarket solutions from other manufacturers it will cost more, which is always the case and with that you get much higher clocks et al...


As for the CPU, I understand that some incompatibility would be an issue for some titles, but it is something I'm sure could be ironed out. Eventually when we get the PS5 and XBTWOX, they will have to sort that out with Zen anyway.... and backward compatibility will be the easiest thing to implement next gen TBF. So, they will do it eventually, and it won't be the pain that some think it will be...Now PS3-PS4 BC, that's a problem, totally different architecture on the CPU side...Jaguar to Zen should be a breeze. Even now it should be, compared to PS3 to PS4....

 

[Shin]

Speaking of the vapor chamber cooler. Microsoft are running the GPU at higher clocks than almost all existing AMD Radeon cards.

It's a downclocked RX480 (1266Mhz --> 1172Mhz), even the desktop card isn't using it.
Vapour chambers are normally required for chips with very high TDP's (think 200w+).
Even as a SoC the CPU draws 25w I believe with a system power draw of +-150w?

I'm curious as to the implications of having so much bandwidth (2048GB/s GDDR6) on a 1024-bit bus.
I need more information on how that would play out, what the benefits are of such a setup, any takers?

 

[Insane Metal]

- Ryzen (or similar) 2x8 cores (total of 16 cores/32threads)
- 32GB RAM (GDDR6 or DDR4)
- 1 or 2TB HDD
- decent GPU for its time

release date: 2019/2020 - $499

 

[Shin]

Maybe 10/20 or 12/24, probably more than 8/16 though now that I think about it.

total of 16 cores/32threads

These are all the GPU's released since the original PS4 in 2013, the GPU inside of it should be a 7850 with customization.

PS4G 18CU 1.84TF 28nm
7970 32CU 4.1TF 28nm
8970 32CU 4.3TF 28nm
290X 44CU 5.6TF 28nm
FurX 64CU 8.6TF 28nm
R480 36CU 5.8TF 14nm
R580 36CU 6.1TF 14nm
Vega10 64CU 12.5TF 14nm
Vega20 64CU 13.9TF? 7nm

28nm was a pain in the ass for the industry as they were stuck on it for a while from the looks of it.
I included the 2 rebrands (8970/Rx580), it gives you a decent idea of the jumps made since then and per die shrink.
There even more GPU's but I left those out (R9 Nano etcetc), AMD's releases are wack it's like forward, backward, foward in raw graphical power.
Not sure why the Rx4xx line was even a thing since they went from 28nm to 14nm, did they lose their mind and Lisa Su fixed the sinking ship?

The point of this all is that there are huge jumps in graphical power from just switching nodes and here's the interesting part which I just found.

GlobalFoundries: is this 7nm+?
Product overview: 7LP details

Bullet points:

• Cloud / Data Center servers
• CPU and GPU for VR
• High-end mobile processors
• Wired and wireless networking
• Automotive ADAS
• AI - DNN/CNN

Samsung is on track with GDDR6 (praise jeebus!) and so is GloFlo with 7nm/7nm+, which is great news and bodes well for the inevitable PS5.
After "ThoseDeadDeafMutes" bought up the 16-20TF in PS5 I did some researching and what do you know it is within the realm of possibilities.
Mobile CPU/GPU's are catching up to their desktop counterpart, before they used to be around 30% weaker, these days it's only 10% behind.
Most likely it will improve further meaning the mobile variants will be closer or equal to their desktop models, a node shrink would allow for that.
If PlayStation manages 32Gb GDDR6, 10C/20T Ryzen and 16TF+, that would be a true freakin' generational jump (PS2>PS3, in glorious 4K).

 

[EvB]

It's a downclocked RX480 (1266Mhz --> 1172Mhz), even the desktop card isn't using it

RX480 clock speed is 1120

 

[Mascot]

The next gen of consoles will definitely mandate a locked 60fps.

Spoiler

I say this every time and always leave disappointed.

 

[Mr.Deadshot]

Hopefully the next generation of consoles is a long way off and they wait for the tech to drop so that something that actually feels like a big leap will be in the $400 range.

Yup. With longer development cycles and recent midgen upgrade this generation can last another 5 years for all I care.

 

[Shin]

RX480 clock speed is 1120

They use boost mode not the base when calculating.

Yup. With longer development cycles and recent midgen upgrade this generation can last another 5 years for all I care.

Shameless self quote:

Those claiming that PlayStation will delay next generation because development is taking longer and that some developers only released 1 game, I think that's crazy talk.
Do you think a conglomerate is going to wait on studio X, Y and Z and for all the stars to be aligned to launch a new console, like realistically speaking?
Be it first, second or 3rd party, research & development of the next console starts a year or two after they've shipped the current/previous generation.
Porting games has now been made easier even since we moved to x86, if a studio's roadmap doesn't allow them to release games in a timely manner it will carry over to the next console.
The only reason the previous generation (PS3) lasted so long was because Sony was losing money on it, it was in their best interest to prolong the generation to recoup their losses on Cell.

PS5 will most likely play PS4 games because digital is gaining more traction year over year, studios can probably make a quick buck by enhancing older games at a fee for little to no effort.
Despite prolonging the previous generation PlayStation is still the one that dictated when it would end as they were the first announce and release their next generation console - the PS4.
Developers always want more, be it a better/faster CPU, more graphical power or more RAM, it's what you always hear from the industry, but almost never about the length of a generation.

 

[EvB]

They use boost mode not the base when calculating...

But you've used the overclocked/boost mode as a comparison against the base speed of the X....

 

[Averon]

My guess is Sony will move on 7nm for a 12 TF machine using mobile Ryzen cores. Will have 32GB of GDDR6 @ 700GB/s-800GB/s for a fall 2019 launch. I just do not think HBM will work out its manufacturing kinks and cost issues soon enough for Sony.

7nm+ (i.e true 7nm) will be used for the PS5 slim and the PS5 Pro in 2021. I see the the PS5 Pro being an 18 TF machine, possibly using HBM3 @ 1.0 TB/s-1.2 TB/s if HBM finally smooth out its issues, with full desktop Ryzen 3 cores.

 

[ethomaz]

Just a hint or speculation.

Mobile Zen probably won't have SMT... makes no sense to have this feature that is more focused in workstation tasks and in most games affect negatively the performance.

I expected a 8-core mobile Zen on PS5 without SMT. That will be a huge increase over Jaguar.

My guess is Sony will move on 7nm for a 12 TF machine using mobile Ryzen cores. Will have 32GB of GDDR6 @ 700GB/s-800GB/s for a fall 2019 launch. I just do not think HBM will work out its manufacturing kinks and cost issues soon enough for Sony.

7nm+ (i.e true 7nm) will be used for the PS5 slim and the PS5 Pro in 2021. I see the the PS5 Pro being an 18 TF machine, possibly using HBM3 @ 1.0 TB/s-1.2 TB/s if HBM finally smooth out its issues, with full desktop Ryzen 3 cores.

The biggest issue with HBM is the same MS found with eSRAM... you need to trade off size to allow these memory chip on die.

In simple terms you need to have a small GPU part to accommodate HBM chips on die... that is why I don't believe HBM will ever be a thing for consoles where you need to use the max possible of the die size to increase GPU units.

BTW my especulativos is 16GB GDDR6 for PS5.

 

[Shin]

But you've used the overclocked/boost mode as a comparison against the base speed of the X....

1172Mhz is X's boost mode speed, so it is downclocked from 1266Mhz found in the desktop RX480.

40CU * 64 Shader/Cuda = 2560 Stream 2x 1172Mhz = 6TF

 

[Sweep14]

I was wondering why Sony decided to be so conservative with their clocks on PS4 Pro.
Pushing them at 2.2 ghz for Cpu and 1100 mhz for gpu would have granted them a nice 5+ tflops machine. Also I think that they should try to release 512mb - 1gb of system reserved memory to redirect them to the game memory pool.

 

[ethomaz]

1172Mhz is X's boost mode speed, so it is downclocked from 1266Mhz found in the desktop RX480.

40CU * 64 Shader/Cuda = 2560 Stream 2x 1172Mhz = 6TF

There is no boost clock in consoles... the boost clock in PC GPUs exists to clock fluctuate for some time between the base clock and max boost clock... it never runs all the time at max boost clock.

In consoles the GPU runs all the time at the max clock... that means there is no boost but only base clock.

 

[Diprosalic]

If there is a god he won't have us play on jaguar till 2020.

 

[Shin]

There is no boost clock in consoles...

Good to know.
Thought it was present but consoles maintained their max speeds (for some reason I thought that, don't ask).

 

[ethomaz]

Good to know.
Thought it was present but consoles maintained their max speeds (for some reason I thought that, don't ask).

Boost clock is unstable and most of time the GPU is throttling.

Consoles can't have a GPU throttling because the games are already optimized to fully use the hardware... that is why they have a stable max clock.

 

[Negotiator]

It's a downclocked RX480 (1266Mhz --> 1172Mhz), even the desktop card isn't using it.
Vapour chambers are normally required for chips with very high TDP's (think 200w+).
Even as a SoC the CPU draws 25w I believe with a system power draw of +-150w?

I'm curious as to the implications of having so much bandwidth (2048GB/s GDDR6) on a 1024-bit bus.
I need more information on how that would play out, what the benefits are of such a setup, any takers?

The main problem is that GDDR memory is very, very power hungry. There's a reason OG PS4 has a higher wattage than OG XB1 and I presume that X will also have a higher power consumption than the Pro.

HBM is supposed to fix this, but it's very expensive for the time being (no economies of scale).

Just a hint or speculation.

Mobile Zen probably won't have SMT... makes no sense to have this feature that is more focused in workstation tasks and in most games affect negatively the performance.

I expected a 8-core mobile Zen on PS5 without SMT. That will be a huge increase over Jaguar.

Does SMT require that many transistors? I think that the L3 cache is a more likely target for transistor cutbacks.

The biggest issue with HBM is the same MS found with eSRAM... you need to trade off size to allow these memory chip on die.

In simple terms you need to have a small GPU part to accommodate HBM chips on die... that is why I don't believe HBM will ever be a thing for consoles where you need to use the max possible of the die size to increase GPU units.

Not really.

360mm2 die:

596mm2 die (65% bigger):

HBM saves quite a bit of PCB space:

X is already the smallest XBOX console... now imagine if it had HBM as well.

DDR3 is the worst when it comes to designing an efficient PCB (DDR4/5 will be the same most likely):

Not many people know this, but DDR memory chips require all signal traces to have the exact same length. GDDR doesn't have this restriction.

HBM > GDDR > DDR

I was wondering why Sony decided to be so conservative with their clocks on PS4 Pro.
Pushing them at 2.2 ghz for Cpu and 1100 mhz for gpu would have granted them a nice 5+ tflops machine.

Not possible, unless they adopt vapor chamber cooling (hopefully on the PS5).

 

[Sweep14]

Not possible, unless they adopt vapor chamber cooling (hopefully on the PS5).

And why vapor chamber was not considered ? It seems that it's not significantly more expensive than traditional air cooling.

 

[Fury451]

400$ because Sony won't be stupid to inflate prices above that level.

*again

 

[ethomaz]

Does SMT require that many transistors? I think that the L3 cache is a more likely target for transistor cutbacks.

SMT requires some parts of the core to be duplicated... Intel HT increased 30% of the transistors to allow SMT (eg. 2C4T is 30% bigget than 2C).

I don't know how many transistors needs for Ryzen SMT but it is basically useless for games... so 30% save in transistors is good.

Not really.

360mm2 die:

596mm2 die (65% bigger):

HBM saves quite a bit of PCB space:

X is already the smallest XBOX console... now imagine if it had HBM as well.

DDR3 is the worst when it comes to designing an efficient PCB (DDR4/5 will be the same most likely):

Not many people know this, but DDR memory chips require all signal traces to have the exact same length. GDDR doesn't have this restriction.

HBM > GDDR > DDR

Your pics just show the exactly issue I said in my post... 600mm2 APU is just not pratical for consoles and if they are open to accept a 600mm2 APU they will choose to increase GPU units than put on die memory.

HBM is really the worst choice for any console.

This monster APU due HBM is really impractical because it takes die space that can be used to GPU, it increases the complexity of the chip, drive the costs, and increase the power draw/heat of the chip.

A PCB with GDDR6 plus a smaller APU with more GPU power is cheaper and works better in a production level... the decrease of PCB in trade off of increase of the CPU chip is not a good thing IMO.

It is easy to compare:

- Less than 400mm2 APU with 15TFs + 16GB GDDR6

or

- More than 500mm2 APU With 12TFs + 16GB HBM

There is a clear winner here.

 

[Harmen]

This is why I don't believe this generation is nearing it's end already. The price for a significant upgrade is too high at this point.

If there is a god he won't have us play on jaguar till 2020.

God allows you to buy a PC.

 

[ethomaz]

This is why I don't believe this generation is nearing it's end already. The price for a significant upgrade is too high at this point.

Because 7nm is too late for the party.

After it got released the price for a big increase in power will be dropped... $399 is possible.

 

[Negotiator]

Your pics just show the exactly issue I said in my post... 600mm2 APU is just not pratical for consoles and if they are open to accept a 600mm2 APU they will choose to increase GPU units than put on die memory.

HBM is really the worst choice for any console.

This monster APU due HBM is really impractical because it takes die space that can be used to GPU, it increases the complexity of the chip, drive the costs, and increase the power draw/heat of the chip.

A PCB with GDDR6 plus a smaller APU with more GPU power is cheaper and works better in a production level... the decrease of PCB in trade off of increase of the CPU chip is not a good thing IMO.

It is easy to compare:

- Less than 400mm2 APU with 15TFs + 16GB GDDR6

or

- More than 500mm2 APU With 12TFs + 16GB HBM

There is a clear winner here.

Who said that HBM increases the APU/GPU die size? You can still have HBM with a smaller die size. Fury X has 4096 ALUs and it's a 28nm chip. That's why it's so big. HBM has nothing to do with it. We're talking about separate dies, not eSRAM which is embedded into the same die.

There are also 600mm2 chips with GDDR memory. It's mainly the ALU count that dictates how big it is. The memory controller is only a small part of it.

AFAIK, it's the interposer that costs a lot of money to manufacture... there are no economies of scale (yet). If they manage to solve this issue, HBM will be the best fit for small & powerful console boxes. Don't forget that GDDR wasn't cheap either when it was first introduced back in 2004.