Thank you.
Even with an analysis like this video, it's kind of amazing the way some ppl just see what they wanna see, and dismiss other stuff for reasons.
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[Digital Foundry] Marvel's Spider-Man 2 PS5 Showcase Trailer Tech Breakdown
Even with an analysis like this video, it's kind of amazing the way some ppl just see what they wanna see, and dismiss other stuff for reasons.
ChiefDada
Gold Member
I appreciate what the Matrix demo is doing, but the sacrifice to picture quality is NOT worth it. The demo is such a noisy, ugly mess from a picture quality standpoint. Burning Shores and God of War Ragnarok (to a lesser extent) have taught me the importance of resolution when games are created with boosted draw distance, higher quality assets/textures, and enhanced particle effects.
Good one? I guess?
One that doesn't look like a PC version of a previous gen game. You know, the type we've had every single gen except for this one, often on the day of the console's release (ie. Killzone Shadow Fall).
Golgo 13
The Man With The Golden Dong
Maybe just dev-time and budgets. Maybe they could take 6-7 years to rebuild the game from the ground up for PS5 but the trade off in how much money that would cost, and how it would fuck up company financial forecasts. And really, how much more would the game sell with better visuals?
Keep in mind I’m playing devils advocate here, I really wanted SM2 to be a “holy shit” moment visually.
01011001
Banned
the Witcher 3, Doom Eternal, Wolfenstein 2 and others run on Switch.
this weird concept of lower end hardware holding back higher end ones with the same feature set has just never been substantiated by and evidence
Why because a bunch of Gaffer are still arguing about what next-gen means to them without clearly and concisely SAYING what that exactly is? Not going to happen.
But a PS4 and a PS5 don't have the same featuresets. You can't make artistic decisions based on RT availability and the port the game back to hardware with no RT.
A next-gen game is one you can easily distinguish from a previous gen game. If you need DF to list its improvements over previous gen game ports then it's not really a next-gen game.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Don't they end up doing that with the 40fps modes?
We forget that they tend to do 30, 40 and 60. All with RT as well.
01011001
Banned
you also can't really use RT for anything substantial on PS5 because AMD...
RT reflections can easily be subsidised by SSR and a low effort reflection map.
and technically, when we're talking Unreal Engine 5, the most popular engine by far, you could do RT with that on last gen. I'm kinda surprised that they didn't have an RT mode for Fortnite on One X tbh. it might need to run at 30fps due to the CPU strain but it should be possible with Software Lumen, as software Lumen has no issue running at 60fps on Series S
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Roman Empire
Member
Yeah, and aren't they rumored to be working on another Ratchet and Clank game? Their production pipeline and management must be out of the charts!
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
I will ask the question once again, since you danced around it with another non-answer.
Every game released so far this gen from first party to third parties fall into the category.
So what does "next-gen" look like this gen? Where is the barometer?
People keep saying "we want next-gen," but there is no frame of reference. And "tech demos" don't count. Those are not games, nor are they ever reached in any gen.
Aren't you contradicting yourself? You say you can't run extensive RT on PS5 but an Xbox One X could? Maybe I'm misunderstanding you.
The first point is debunked with the existence of Metro Exodus Enhanced Edition.
I gave you an answer. If you don't like it, too bad.
Oh so there are barometers but you dismiss them because they would instantly prove you wrong. OK.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
You did not give shit. You are providing nothing of substance, just repeating words with nothing to back it up.
What should a next-gen game look like? Show us.
Show me these "next-gen" games that a select few of you repeat like robots in Sony graphics threads, but are unable to conjure up other than, "hurr durr, not look cross-gen."
Show us what next-gen is supposed to look like. Show me the "next-gen" games out there, released right now. From all developers making games in current year.
01011001
Banned
Well software Lumen is pretty low quality, but it runs on non-RT accelerated GPUs, and it doesn't use the RT hardware of the 4 TFLOPs Series S GPU, while still hitting 60fps on it.
on last gen it would be more taxing, but the Steam Deck, which has a pretty slow CPU and very slow GPU, can also handle it
so UE5's low quality software Lumen should be able to run on last gen.
the image quality here is very bad tho, sub 1080p at times on PS5.
and the game has a pretty static environment overall, something where the developers could easily make a baked lighting fallback for a last gen system.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
To be fair.........
This is the generational difference I was expecting.....
And I know this game is still questionable, but.....
GymWolf
Member
I'm only seeing people shitting on the graphic tbh, the people who shat on the gameplay are people who probably didn't liked the first spidey gameplay neither.
Expectations dude, do you expect the same graphic from fromsoft and sony studios? nobody does.
Do we expected a game that looks barely better than morales when their other nextgen only game is the second best looking ps5 game (and for many it's the best).
And btw, horizon get constant ass-lickining for its graphic in here, even people who dislike the game think that it looks wonderful.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
To be fair.........
This is the generational difference I was expecting.....
And I know this game is still questionable, but.....
Yes, TBF,
They never showed off the nighttime lighting in gameplay. Only seen an example in the warehouse stuff which did match in the dark scenes.
Yes, he is the CM, but his track record has always been on point. I guess we shall see if it remains consistent closer to launch.
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mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
I've never seen Stevenson flat out lie or be wrong. For me.......he's always been the voice of reason. So, I guess I'll temper my anger for now. What he did in the face of puddlegate deserved an award. I just hope he's right here too.
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01011001
Banned
take away the shakey cam and the natrual looking hand animations, for and it will not look like anything special.
yes they used really high quality UE5 store assets here, but that's about all that's really good looking in this.
there's even missing shadows, where many objects hit by the flashlight don't cast a shadow.
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DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Even if he is, it's still going to be overanalyzed to hell and back. Online hubris, agendas, and all that downplaying.
BrutalTruth_
Banned
It looks next gen though.
You did not give shit. You are providing nothing of substance, just repeating words with nothing to back it up.
What should a next-gen game look like? Show us.
Show me these "next-gen" games that a select few of you repeat like robots in Sony graphics threads, but are unable to conjure up other than, "hurr durr, not look cross-gen."
Show us what next-gen is supposed to look like. Show me the "next-gen" games out there, released right now. From all developers making games in current year.
> There aren't any next-gen games on PS5.
> Show me the next-gen games on PS5.
> I just told you there aren't any.
That means there's really no excuse for current games to use it, right?
The game targets 60fps. A 30fps mode would easily fix that.
Even just brute forcing baked lighting improvements would be a win. Compare TLoU2 pre-downgrade with the retail version. A proper PS5 version would look substantially better than the PS4 game but for some reason it's not happening.
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DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Intellectual dishonesty.
sendit
Member
Texture work and art style. People are more impressed when the art style depicts a more realistic tone.
To be fair.........
This is the generational difference I was expecting.....
And I know this game is still questionable, but.....
Tons of bokeh and cinematic angles here. The gameplay reveal trailer didn't depict the same lighting conditions or similar scene. I'll reserve my judgement until the final release.
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I'm just shocked that after:
Spider-Man
Miles Morales
Rift Apart
Some ppl are doubting Insomniac.
Like you say, when the game launches...and those photo threads get littered with pics, we shall see.
This is called an Invalid Argument.
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Don't blame me. If no native PS5 are available, tech demos anyone can run on their system don't count and examples of previous gens are ignored, what else remains?
GymWolf
Member
I'm sorry but nobody is gonna convince me that rtx reflections are absolutely needed in a game where you explore and fight at high speed with acrobatic moves for 90% of the time.
Reflections nutjobs are a particularly annoying branch between the graphic whores.
They should use the resources on the light model or to vastly improve the models and overall texture work, if you need a df video to tell you that they improved the textures here and there you know they fucked up, the ue5 fairy mountain demo or wukong looks both incredible even with yt compression so don't give me that shit...
Reflections nutjobs are a particularly annoying branch between the graphic whores.
They should use the resources on the light model or to vastly improve the models and overall texture work, if you need a df video to tell you that they improved the textures here and there you know they fucked up, the ue5 fairy mountain demo or wukong looks both incredible even with yt compression so don't give me that shit...
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Most of the people complaining are PlayStation ‘fanboys’ or whatever you want to call them. Like myself. I only have a PS5 which I got day 1. Haven’t had an Xbox since 360. You mentioning Xbox means nothing to us, we just want better from PlayStation. The show case was their worst ever, and their BIG next gen only showcase doesn’t look as good as the first time we saw miles morales gameplay. Simple as that.
sendit
Member
What constitutes a native PS5 game to you?
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Mr Moose
Member
What the... Are you drunk?
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Are you just going to ignore the amazing lighting?
To quote myself:
"A next-gen game is one you can easily distinguish from a previous gen game. If you need DF to list its improvements over previous gen game ports then it's not really a next-gen game."
Examples from the previous gen:
Uncharted 3 vs Uncharted 4
The Last of Us vs The Last of Us Part 2
Killzone 3 vs Killzone Shadow Fall
etc...
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
How did they create the city for the first game in 4 years? Sunset Overdrive came out in 2014, 4 years later they had the entire Manhattan created for Spiderman with a completely new combat system, animations, NPC simulations and everything that goes into creating a new open world IP. They also shipped a ratchet remake in 2016.
Spiderman 2 is coming out 5 years later and they cant create Manhattan from scratch? Why? I could understand using the same city for Miles since it was sold as a $40 standalone expansion, but this is a full fledged sequel and they are basically touching up some building assets while adding Queens and Brooklyn. Hardly equal the amount of work that they did for Spiderman 1 in just 4 years.
The decision to make this game look marginally better than Spiderman 1 likely took place in 2018 after they shipped Spiderman 1. I dont know if they were thinking of company's financial forecasts 5 years into the future. I have honestly no idea why they would release an amazing looking trailer 2 years ago only to deliver something that looks nothing like it. They clearly were aiming for way better than this gameplay demo. Something must have gone wrong somewhere.
mrcroket
Member
diffusionx
Gold Member
Yet if I play, say, Borderlands 3 on my PS5, it gets 4K/60fps with no problem, looks much sharper and runs far smoother than the PS4, to an extent that it can be "easily distinguished" as soon as you sit down and start playing it, then Borderlands 3 is a next-gen game.
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sendit
Member
I see this image brought up consistently:
From DFs analysis (not the same location, but close enough):
Increase in env detail is quite apparent here. LOD will obviously kick in as the player gets closer to the building. Given the same lighting conditions and angles as the reveal trailer, we can see very similar visuals (as the initial reveal).
From DFs analysis (not the same location, but close enough):
Increase in env detail is quite apparent here. LOD will obviously kick in as the player gets closer to the building. Given the same lighting conditions and angles as the reveal trailer, we can see very similar visuals (as the initial reveal).
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I don’t know who that is, and don’t care. I’m just honest with my opinion. I don’t care about PS vs Xbox. I just say what I see. If it is positive or negative towards PS. Look at the Spider-Man 2 initial reveal threads and see how much I praised what I saw.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Nah, just intellectually dishonest.
Diminishing returns - Wikipedia
Diminishing Returns (Concept) - Giant Bomb
In gaming, the law of diminishing returns (DR) governs the gradual loss of effectiveness of a spell or ability on continual use. Simply put, the more you abuse a skill, the less effective it becomes.
www.giantbomb.com
Even at 10 years ago, the comment is every bit as relevant today due to how the pipelines are compared to 10+ years ago with technology leaps getting smaller and smaller across the same architectures with just efficiency tweaks to them.
I have been saying this for some time now. What will set this gen and last gen games apart, are environmental physics and animations. Those items should get more focus with the added processing power.
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DenchDeckard
Moderated wildly
I might be crazy but I'd prefer an awesome 15 hour game that I can enjoy and what more of than a game like ragnarok that was 50 hours long where I wish half of it was cut. Haven't event brought myself to try Horizon on PlayStation plus as it sounds awful for my taste from the feedback I've read.
But each to their own and I get your point.
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GymWolf
Member
The opposite for me, if i enjoy the gameplay and the story, i want more of it, i adored ragnarock for being full packed of content even in the endgame.
You could say the same thing about The Last of Us remastered for PS4. The Last of Us Part 2 would show what an actual PS4 game looks like.
Nah, just intellectually dishonest.
Diminishing returns - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
Diminishing Returns (Concept) - Giant Bomb
In gaming, the law of diminishing returns (DR) governs the gradual loss of effectiveness of a spell or ability on continual use. Simply put, the more you abuse a skill, the less effective it becomes.
Even at 10 years ago, the comment is every bit as relevant today due to how the pipelines are compared to 10+ years ago with technology leaps getting smaller and smaller across the same architectures with just efficiency tweaks.
I have been saying this for some time now. What will set this gen and last gen games apart, are environmental physics and animations. Those items should get more focus with the added processing power.
Sorry but the tech demos you loathe so much show that these consoles are capable of so much more that the barely better than cross-gen games we have gotten so far. Not to mention that since the Matrix demo release Lumen and Nanite have been further optimized. Also, the Metro Exodus EE shows that even using the exact same assets as you had last gen tech improvements alone can make a massive difference.
And also, this discussion isn't new. Here you have Brian Hook explaining this 24 years ago (the relevant part lasts 10 minutes):
TL;DW: Just increasing polygon counts/resolution and slapping some effects on top won't make games look next-gen.
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DeepEnigma
Gold Member
But adding better environmental physics and animations will, with the already high fidelity scenes and lighting that are drawn.
Physics/Animations should be the next big game changer. Metro's jank hinders that, big time. No matter the lighting solution and dated assets.
sendit
Member
Mind showing us a UE5 game that is released utilizing both Lumen and Nanite that is visually up to your next gen standards?
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ChiefDada
Gold Member
RT reflections aren't needed or ideal in a game whose main characters are swinging in between tall skyscrapers with highly reflective windows 95% of the time?
Madserb2023
Member
It will inevitably have a 40fps mode which will likely be similar in fidelity to the 30fps mode I have a feeling the 60fps mode will be sub 1080p for the most part. I really wish they would stop pushing ray tracing on these systems. It was good enough in the previous games. No need to add it to the water. What a waste of performance. I would rather they revert to what they had before and instead increase geometry, character models etc. Infinitely more noticable. Keep it for the pro.
GymWolf
Member
You swing at super high speed dude, i don't believe for a single moment that during high speed web slinging or acrobatic combat you can notice high quality ssr over rtx.
People who stop all the time to notice this stuff are just people who love taking screenshots, not people who actually play the game.
And this game has even faster web slinging than spidey 1, so...
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