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Digital Foundry: Perfomance of Dying Light [PS4 1080p/XO 1080pr]

If you dislike blurryness in any shape or form then you should appreciate AF even more as it makes the textures look sharper and more detailed at an angle, eliminates the blurryness.

Yeah I'm aware that it doesn't make total sense fpr me to hate DoF but not care about AF.

I guess a blurry background with DoF bothers me because I can't see all the detail that i want to see, which irritates me because I want to know what the details looks like. With no AF, I can't see the far away details clearly, but it doesn't matter because I already know what they look like because I can see them in the closer distance. ( Like for example I can tell what a road texture in the distance looks like because I can already see an example of that in the foreground)
Or maybe I am not clear on all that af does
 

HTupolev

Member
Basically since you need to load a texture completely anyway to show it with or without AF
So, my implied representation of the GPU texturing memory structure wasn't quite right, but this is false. You "need to load a texture completely anyway", but on oblique-angled surfaces, AF changes which MIP level being used by the GPU. Since MIPmaps don't have anisotropy built in, it's impossible to select a MIP level that gives correct results for both axes of an oblique-angled surface under bilinear/trilinear filtering; a small MIP level might give correct results for the squished axis but blur along the long axis, while a large MIP level might give correct results on the long axis but shimmer due to undersampling on the squished axis.

The default bilinear/trilinear non-AF solution to the problem is to sample from the MIP level corresponding to the most-shrunk axis. This causes the typical bilinear/trilinear blur, but ensures visual stability.

AF solves the problem by reading from a larger version of the texture and "stabilizing it on the smaller axis" by taking many samples from it (basically "supersampling" in texture space).

In the trilinear case, we're reading in from a smaller version of the texture, ultimately requiring reading fewer texels since they're less dense. Technically speaking it's possible to force bilinear/trilinear to read from the larger MIP levels anyway (the Playstation 2's janky rasterizer more or less does this as its default due to not accounting for obliqueness, and on modern hardware you can apply a negative LOD bias), but this is usually not done since it yields texture aliasing (and if you're going to use the larger MIP levels, you might as well use AF anyway).
 

Conduit

Banned
I asked a dev of Dying Light about AF on PS4. It's there but ranges are set differently than on X1 for some reason he doesn't know. They may issue a fix because of that. He added that PS4 supports AF without any problems.

Don't consider this as any official statement from Techland, it was a friendly exchange on FB.

So, can we expect AF fix trough patch?
 

Alo0oy

Banned
In this thread, I learned that the PS4 isn't powerful enough to run Strider in 1080p with AF, 176 GB/s just isn't enough to run that demanding game.
 
It's clear in the XB1s favour, IMO, even with a lower resolution.

This outside comparison looks a lot better on XB1 than PS4. The corrugated roofs look, well, corrugated and the crane can actually be resolved as a crane.

The indoor scene we know looks better on XB1, too.

Are you sure the screens aren't inverted here?

The allegedly xbone shot handles better transparency/thin objects like the crane or the little vegetation nearby (which also seems lower res on the PS4 shot).

Though, the spots with AF on the Xbone shot while absent from the PS4 are along the expected given what DF said.

I'm using a retina display, so I'm not sure how reliable what I'm seeing is regarding resolution, but I'm having a really hard time telling them apart in that, there's apparently a CA filter making everything kinda blurry...
 
Are you sure the screens aren't inverted here?

The allegedly xbone shot handles better transparency/thin objects like the crane or the little vegetation nearby (which also seems lower res on the PS4 shot).

Though, the spots with AF on the Xbone shot while absent from the PS4 are along the expected given what DF said.

I'm using a retina display, so I'm not sure how reliable what I'm seeing is regarding resolution, but I'm having a really hard time telling them apart in that, there's apparently a CA filter making everything kinda blurry...

You can clearly see the lack of AF in the PS4 shot. I don't think they are inverted.
 

sade

Banned
Not 1080p on Xbox One:
And worse framerate:
But, but, XBO has 2% faster CPU and all the fanboys are claiming than open world games run better in XBO
just because was the case 2 games out of 150
. How is this thing possible? I'm confussed.
Not really
 

cyberheater

PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 Xbone PS4 PS4
But, but, XBO has 2% faster CPU and all the fanboys are claiming than open world games run better in XBO
just because was the case 2 games out of 150
. How is this thing possible? I'm confussed.
Not really

Really. Was there any need for that.
 

Purest 78

Member
I wonder if people are gonna make a big deal about false advertising with the resolution. Probably not though because it's not a Sony exclusive.
 
In this thread, I learned that the PS4 isn't powerful enough to run Strider in 1080p with AF, 176 GB/s just isn't enough to run that demanding game.

you can run strider with AF with an integrated graphics chip these days.

The lack of AF has to be from something, but its definitely not the hardware. Thats just absurd.
 

Sunny

Banned
But, but, XBO has 2% faster CPU and all the fanboys are claiming than open world games run better in XBO
just because was the case 2 games out of 150
. How is this thing possible? I'm confussed.
Not really

Really dude?
 

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
Hmm, I might have to mess around with it, but I found this commented out in one of the config files...

!OculusEnabled() // enable support for Oculus

Curious...
 

Ricky_R

Member
But, but, XBO has 2% faster CPU and all the fanboys are claiming than open world games run better in XBO
just because was the case 2 games out of 150
. How is this thing possible? I'm confussed.
Not really

Not sure you're gonna get away with that one.
 

Dunlop

Member
But, but, XBO has 2% faster CPU and all the fanboys are claiming than open world games run better in XBO
just because was the case 2 games out of 150
. How is this thing possible? I'm confussed.
Not really

plz-stop-post.jpg


So issues on all platforms then, will wait for a good sale
 

Bsigg12

Member
Hmm, I might have to mess around with it, but I found this commented out in one of the config files...

!OculusEnabled() // enable support for Oculus

Curious...

I heard it's a little janky, but there should be auto detect if you have your Rift plugged in apparently.
 

TheStruggler

Report me for trolling ND/TLoU2 threads
Anyone send the devs a message on twitter and ask about the lack of af and if they are going to patch it?
 
You can clearly see the lack of AF in the PS4 shot. I don't think they are inverted.

Yeah, I noticed that, but i though strange because, at least from the screen of my surface, every difference in IQ I could see favored the xbone, even aliasing artifacts that should be worse on the one with larger res (assuming both use the same AA method)
 

geordiemp

Member
I asked a dev of Dying Light about AF on PS4. It's there but ranges are set differently than on X1 for some reason he doesn't know. They may issue a fix because of that. He added that PS4 supports AF without any problems.

Don't consider this as any official statement from Techland, it was a friendly exchange on FB.

Sounds like they put it in but mucked it up from your post.
 
I asked a dev of Dying Light about AF on PS4. It's there but ranges are set differently than on X1 for some reason he doesn't know. They may issue a fix because of that. He added that PS4 supports AF without any problems.

Don't consider this as any official statement from Techland, it was a friendly exchange on FB.

Hmm, then I wonder why there are so many PS4 games that don't use it/don't use it enough? So strange.
 
But, but, XBO has 2% faster CPU and all the fanboys are claiming than open world games run better in XBO
just because was the case 2 games out of 150
. How is this thing possible? I'm confussed.
Not really
There's an art to trolling, and you sir are no Claude Monet.
 

thelastword

Banned
I question why competent developers constantly overlook something as visually obvious and computationally cheap as AF on PS4.

It's not a hardware or SDK issue. This has already been confirmed.

Something smells funny.

I'm not a fan of set and forget 30fps caps on PS4 either. Clearly such games want to leap higher. If you're going to cap at 30, do it 100% consistently then make use of those wasted GPU cycles somehow. Who knows, in all likelihood the game may be operating at 40 to 50 fps. What a waste of GPU resources! The least they could do is implement Antistropic Filtering right? Right? Increased geometry? GPU compute effects? Improved AA?

Nah, it's the same as the XBOne version.

Hmmm.
Agreed, it's something I always ask from devs too, give me the option of the unlocked framerate, let those people who want their stuff locked have that too, so simple isn't it?

At one point the game was 1080p 60, so there's no reason why I should not play at an average of 50-55fps if given the choice.

With the console development on this game, it appears that they tried their hardest to get the xbone version decent and it kinda dwarfed the PS4 version somewhat. I'm looking at the lod issue and there's no reason why lod should be the same on the PS4 and xbone, Look at the AF issue, why is it more apparent on the xbone than on PS4. As quoted below, a dev on the team did say that there's no issue with AF on PS4 and so did Sony programmers too.

I think we as PS4 owners should really launch a campaign to let Shu and other higher ups hear about the lack of AF in games, if it's not a problem to implement why is it not there?

I asked a dev of Dying Light about AF on PS4. It's there but ranges are set differently than on X1 for some reason he doesn't know. They may issue a fix because of that. He added that PS4 supports AF without any problems.

Don't consider this as any official statement from Techland, it was a friendly exchange on FB.
Cool, that much was also confirmed by an ICE programmer too.

In this thread, I learned that the PS4 isn't powerful enough to run Strider in 1080p with AF, 176 GB/s just isn't enough to run that demanding game.
Yeah sometimes, I believe some people are just being willfully ignorant on these matters, a 102 GB/s system has AF but a 176 GB/s system somehow can't. 16x AF should be in every PS4 game at this point.
 

SaganIsGOAT

Junior Member
But, but, XBO has 2% faster CPU and all the fanboys are claiming than open world games run better in XBO
just because was the case 2 games out of 150
. How is this thing possible? I'm confussed.
Not really

Fascinating. No need to call people fanboys.
 

dr_rus

Member
So, my implied representation of the GPU texturing memory structure wasn't quite right, but this is false. You "need to load a texture completely anyway", but on oblique-angled surfaces, AF changes which MIP level being used by the GPU. Since MIPmaps don't have anisotropy built in, it's impossible to select a MIP level that gives correct results for both axes of an oblique-angled surface under bilinear/trilinear filtering; a small MIP level might give correct results for the squished axis but blur along the long axis, while a large MIP level might give correct results on the long axis but shimmer due to undersampling on the squished axis.

The default bilinear/trilinear non-AF solution to the problem is to sample from the MIP level corresponding to the most-shrunk axis. This causes the typical bilinear/trilinear blur, but ensures visual stability.

AF solves the problem by reading from a larger version of the texture and "stabilizing it on the smaller axis" by taking many samples from it (basically "supersampling" in texture space).

In the trilinear case, we're reading in from a smaller version of the texture, ultimately requiring reading fewer texels since they're less dense. Technically speaking it's possible to force bilinear/trilinear to read from the larger MIP levels anyway (the Playstation 2's janky rasterizer more or less does this as its default due to not accounting for obliqueness, and on modern hardware you can apply a negative LOD bias), but this is usually not done since it yields texture aliasing (and if you're going to use the larger MIP levels, you might as well use AF anyway).

I'll try saying this again: AF doesn't have anything to do with MIP levels. AF is a tap filter which does supersampling when fetching texels. MIPs are simply minified versions of the base texture. They don't have any angles in the same way as base texture don't have them. They're just 2D matrices.

Most GPUs does adjust MIP LOD levels when applying AF but this doesn't lead to anything like more bandwidth usage or more memory needed. You're still using the same base texture and the same number of MIP levels.

Also trying to tie MIPs into this conversation is rather pointless because MIPs are generated on the GPU on the fly these days - in pretty much the same way as AF. So you're still loading one base texture in tiles in your GPU's cache and the GPU then uses this cache to generate MIPs and do AF if requested. The speed and amount of that cache in the several last GPU architectures makes all bandwidth requirement for such operations closing in on zero. Thus saying that AF is out of PS4 because of bandwidth is simply incorrect. AF doesn't consume any bandwidth - or memory for that matter - in this day and age.
 

Dazza

Member
All the titles that are lacking AF on the PS4 at the moment, are they on similar engines? I wondering if it is just a default that they are set to. What have we got so far, Strider, Thief and Dying Light. Is there a commonality there?
 

Jomjom

Banned
I wish so-called video game journalists would repeatedly ask Sony and devs until we get the truth about the issue with AF on PS4.

I mean it really does NOT make sense when a game like Strider can't even get it.
 

TAJ

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
I can safely tell you that unlocking the frame-limiter on TLoU:R and I:FL allows the PS4 to be louder than my PC at full tilt. I'll take the (optional) frame-cap, thanks.

I own this fan.
http://postimage.org/
My PC with all fans at 100% is easily louder. (Corsair Air 540 case with stock fans, 280mm AIO water cooler with 4x 140mm Bgears B-Blasters in push/pull and an MSI GTX 970. The 970 is almost silent, though.)
 

HardRojo

Member
But, but, XBO has 2% faster CPU and all the fanboys are claiming than open world games run better in XBO
just because was the case 2 games out of 150
. How is this thing possible? I'm confussed.
Not really

Enjoy your stay.
While it lasts?
Seriously, no need to go that route and call people fanboys.
 

RoboPlato

I'd be in the dick
All the titles that are lacking AF on the PS4 at the moment, are they on similar engines? I wondering if it is just a default that they are set to. What have we got so far, Strider, Thief and Dying Light. Is there a commonality there?
Strider and Thief are UE3. Don't know about Dying Light.
 

HTupolev

Member
Most GPUs does adjust MIP LOD levels when applying AF but this doesn't lead to anything like more bandwidth usage or more memory needed. You're still using the same base texture and the same number of MIP levels.
You have the same base texture and the same number of MIP levels, but that doesn't mean that you're actually sending them to the GPU to be sampled. If a GPU decides that it only needs texels from MIP3 during trilinear because of the distance and oblique angle a surface is at, it's not going to bother reading in stuff from MIP2, MIP1, and MIP0.

Also trying to tie MIPs into this conversation is rather pointless because MIPs are generated on the GPU on the fly these days - in pretty much the same way as AF.
If this is true, then this is where my mistake lies. Obviously my claim that AF could increase BW for oblique-angled surfaces relies on the idea that the GPU would actually read in smaller versions of textures in trilinear cases.

I was under the impression that MIPmaps still resided as actual textures in main memory, and that the GPU would still only draw from the required MIP level to minimize cache thrashing (and consequently, BW). I got this notion because AMD's own commentary about GCN suggests it, such as this compilation of tweets, or these slides from their 2014 developer conference, in addition to everything else I've seen about modern texturing methods. If I'm wrong about this, I'd like to see something that suggests otherwise.

Obviously GPUs are very capable of generating MIP levels due to their excellent scaling abilities (and shaders being an alright fit for texture compression algorithms), but I thought that was mostly used for loading (i.e. as textures are read from disc) and for procedural purposes, and that texture sampling still used classical MIPmapping. After all, ditching classical main-RAM mipmapping would require excessive BW for any objects where the texel density exceeds the on-screen pixel density, since you'd have to read in all those subpixel texels to supersample away the texture aliasing. Considering that a lot of modern GPU tasks are BW-bound and that there's frequently a decent amount of RAM to go around, this seems like a terrible idea versus just eating the extra 1/3rd memory cost on MIPmaps.

AF doesn't have anything to do with MIP levels. AF is a tap filter which does supersampling when fetching texels.
...Which still requires MIPmapping to get stable results, in exactly the same way that bilinear/trilinear does. 2 taps allows you to use a slightly bigger MIP level, hence why it pushes the "blur" region back a little. If you tried to use 2 taps on a full-res texture for a highly-oblique surface, you wouldn't get blur, you'd get a ton of texture aliasing.

AF isn't MIPmapping, but the concept relies on MIPmapping in exactly the same way that other texture-filtering techniques do.
 

Suikoguy

I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
I wish so-called video game journalists would repeatedly ask Sony and devs until we get the truth about the issue with AF on PS4.

I mean it really does NOT make sense when a game like Strider can't even get it.

Yeah, would be nice if someone got to the bottom of it... it's really old tech!
 
But, but, XBO has 2% faster CPU and all the fanboys are claiming than open world games run better in XBO
just because was the case 2 games out of 150
. How is this thing possible? I'm confussed.
Not really

You've been a member here for a month.
Oh gosh.
 

Mookow

Member
Got it on X1, will check out how it runs/looks when I get home. I doubt it's going to be a huge detractor from my enjoyment.
 

SebastianM

Member
Man chromatic aberration is such a shitty effect, reminds me of the brown filter and excessive HDR in the early last gen games. I hope devs start to get rid of it by the end of the year.
 

kyser73

Member
I wish so-called video game journalists would repeatedly ask Sony and devs until we get the truth about the issue with AF on PS4.

I mean it really does NOT make sense when a game like Strider can't even get it.

But look! People already have!


Tweet from Cort Stratton, senior programmer with the ICE team, as quoted in the Gaming Bolt article

I asked a dev of Dying Light about AF on PS4. It's there but ranges are set differently than on X1 for some reason he doesn't know. They may issue a fix because of that. He added that PS4 supports AF without any problems.

Don't consider this as any official statement from Techland, it was a friendly exchange on FB.

(My bold)
 
Looks like Google was defaulting to "daylight unreal engine 4" when I was searching "dying light unreal engine 4", and I didn't notice.

If it makes you feel any better, dying light, day light, dead island 2, whatever. I thought they were the same game until like 3 months ago.
 
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