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[frankie_baby]

To a certain extent, yes.

However there is some meaty stuff in this thread, worth some discussion. The usually We Hate U crew are missing.

Anyway, hopefully we'll get some more meat later in the day. Joel did say he would come back if the thread was still alive.

We must keep the thread going til then, no matter how dull the posts get, I don't really have anything worthwhile to say as i aint got the game yet

 

[TheD]

I've played through most of Trine 2 on PC (and a bit on PS3), and it doesn't exactly have Motorstorm 2 level physics ... So yeah, I'm pretty sure the CPU isn't much of a bottleneck. But the game uses some really cool graphics effects (volumetric fog and such) that especially stand out when you play the game in stereo 3D (because then you can see especially well that all those godrays and fog and such are not 'faked').

I ran Trine2 in windowed mode and took a look at how much CPU time each of it's threads took up with process explorer.

At 60FPS, the main game thread took up about 5 to 9 % of total CPU time on a i5 2500K running at 4.4Ghz, all the other game threads are under 1 %, with the physx thread taking up to around 1 %.
At 30FPS they should be half that (unless they keep the game logic running at a faster update rate).

So it is unlikely that it stresses the WiiU (or 360 or PS3) CPU.

 

[TUROK]

What the hell is up with the snake in the Wii U version? The mesh looks fucked up. I mean, compare the head to the 360 and PS3 versions.

 

[Asherdude]

As I said in an earlier thread, the Wii U reminds me of the SNES. Slow CPU coupled with an advanced GPU. When a developer get's the code right, Nintendo's visuals will exceed the Genesis... I mean, 360.

 

[Durante]

The reason this thread is relatively short is that it doesn't contain anything surprising. It's a 2.5D platformer, it runs well on all the consoles, and on PC you can probably run it at 1080p with SSAA.

I ran Trine2 in windowed mode and took a look at how much CPU time each of it's threads took up with process explorer.

At 60FPS, the main game thread took up about 5 to 9 % of total CPU time on a i5 2500K running at 4.4Ghz, all the other game threads are under 1 %, with the physx thread taking up to around 1 %.
At 30FPS they should be half that (unless they keep the game logic running at a faster update rate).

So it is unlikely that it stresses the WiiU (or 360 or PS3) CPU.

Thanks for that, makes perfect sense.

 

[adamsapple]

Well this is a pleasant surprise.

Good on the developer.

 

[storafötter]

Great to hear about the good. I was originally contemplating to get it for the Wii U but then steam sales happened. As a reminder Trine on the ps3 was jaggie mess which was distracting to begin with thats why id prefer to see the beautiful art in full glory on a pc.

 

[StevieP]

The reason this thread is relatively short is that it doesn't contain anything surprising. It's a 2.5D platformer, it runs well on all the consoles, and on PC you can probably run it at 1080p with SSAA.

Thanks for that, makes perfect sense.

It goes SubHD on the other 2 consoles. So there's that. But the Wii U GPU is presumably much better than the other ones.

 

[Barack Lesnar]

The reason this thread is relatively short is that it doesn't contain anything surprising. It's a 2.5D platformer, it runs well on all the consoles, and on PC you can probably run it at 1080p with SSAA.

Thanks for that, makes perfect sense.

Right, this is a small downloadable game not some complex AAA blockbuster. I don't see the big deal. It's not even 1080p.

 

[kinggroin]

The reason this thread is relatively short is that it doesn't contain anything surprising. It's a 2.5D platformer, it runs well on all the consoles, and on PC you can probably run it at 1080p with SSAA.

Thanks for that, makes perfect sense.

Nothing surprising? C'mon D, seriously?

You HAVE been paying attention throughout launch right? Damn near every multiplatform game runs or looks worse on the Wii U. Even the premier Mario title fails to do anything technically spectacular. Couple that with the myriad of issues relating to OS performance and the disappointing hardware discoveries (needing edram just to bring the system to parity, low speed low bandwidth memory etc.)

Seeing this Digital Foundry come to the conclusion it has (not only are there no performance or technical visual issues aside from gamma, but it's actually the best version, is quite the change). This game is the exception to what has been an unfortunately consistent rule, and as such, is very much a surprise.

I do agree that if the hardware was very obviously head and shoulders above the last gen twins, this technically shouldn't have been surprise, but all the technical discussions have been pointing to that not being the case.

 

[Always-honest]

. Even the premier Mario title fails to do anything technically spectacular.

i think it looks and runs pretty spectacular. Nice anti aliassing for clean visuals through gameplay without fucking apparent jaggies, constant 60 fps and all in real 720p.

That's a lot more than many PS3 and 360 games have shown.
Could it be possible on ps3 and 360, yeah i think so. But i still think it looks and runs pretty spectacular.

 

[Durante]

Nothing surprising? C'mon D, seriously?

You HAVE been paying attention throughout launch right? Damn near every multiplatform game runs or looks worse on the Wii U. Even the premier Mario title fails to do anything technically spectacular. Couple that with the myriad of issues relating to OS performance and the disappointing hardware discoveries (needing edram just to bring the system to parity, low speed low bandwidth memory etc.)

Seeing this Digital Foundry come to the conclusion it has (not only are there no performance or technical visual issues aside from gamma, but it's actually the best version, is quite the change). This game is the exception to what has been an unfortunately consistent rule, and as such, is very much a surprise.

I guess it's a surprise if you look at hardware as a monolithic package and assign "multipliers" to that. My perspective is very different from that.

If you have a more differentiated view, and look at hardware in terms of individual components (or better yet, individual performance aspects of sub-components), then a game such as Trine 2 running well is not a surprise. I guess they could still have messed it up, but (maybe unlike some) my general expectation is that developers are trying to do a good job.

 

[mclem]

As an aside: While it's a disappointment that quite a few Wii U titles need patches after launch - it's very encouraging that we're seeing those patches so quickly. Policy change bearing fruit?

 

[Orayn]

As an aside: While it's a disappointment that quite a few Wii U titles need patches after launch - it's very encouraging that we're seeing those patches so quickly. Policy change bearing fruit?

I'd say so, yes. Nintendo deciding not to charge for patches was a good move, and hopefully one that Microsoft and/or Sony will try to match.

 

[Aostia]

I'll buy it on my Wii U tomorrow

 

[StevieP]

Right, this is a small downloadable game not some complex AAA blockbuster. I don't see the big deal. It's not even 1080p.

You'd be one of the first posters in this thread if it were running at, say, 10% less frames per second. This game isn't filled with complex set pieces in linear shooting galleries, sure, but it is 2.5d and looks/runs great. It is probably the first title that is better in "every" way than its older console counterparts, not just "some" ways or none at all. That also likely explains the thread length.

 

[kinggroin]

I guess it's a surprise if you look at hardware as a monolithic package and assign "multipliers" to that. My perspective is very different from that.

If you have a more differentiated view, and look at hardware in terms of individual components (or better yet, individual performance aspects of sub-components), then a game such as Trine 2 running well is not a surprise. I guess they could still have messed it up, but (maybe unlike some) my general expectation is that developers are trying to do a good job.

My reaction really didn't come so much from the kind of hardware perspective I had, but simply the general trend surrounding this system and multiplatform games. I know developers mostly WANT to do a great job, but time constraints, budgets, manpower and even the learning curve that comes with new hardware architecture, can become road blocks to the goal of a great port.

When I entered this thread, coming off the info learned about the hardware, and the already established performance issues trend, I was not expecting the results we got even considering, "Yeah, this plays well to the system's strengths, so it should be a definite win"

I hope that clears up my pov.

I completely understand yours now, thanks.

 

[moniker]

In the first 3 screens, the PS3 version looks allot cleaner then the Wii U versies. The Wii U version has more jaggies...

Not really. The Wii U just have the wrong gamma and is not blurry (since it's rendering in higher resolution in that screenshot) which makes the jaggies more obvious.

 

[JoelFB]

Wow, thanks everyone. Special thanks for keeping this thread alive heh.

It was mentioned that you use a 4th render target for an ambient light term on PC and PS3, but it doesn't seem like that has made a noticeable difference compared to the 360. Do you know what's going on there (maybe done in a separate render pass for 360)? I presume WiiU uses that 4th RT as well.

This is what I got by picking some brighter brains: "Actual lighting calculations are the same with and without the 4th render target. Without it, ambient will be rendered as a separate render pass."

Joel, have you guys considered bringing the original Trine to WiiU? With that speed of getting your games up and running on the WiiU and your experience with the WiiPad, that might be a viable side project.

We have considered it but came to the conclusion that it's probably not worthwhile. We're not all that interested in working on something so old, we rather work on something new to keep things exciting, and there's also a bunch of technical hurdles we'd need to overcome. Trine is based on our old tech, and although we did squeeze a reasonable PS3 version out of it, it's not really a pleasure to work with. The only realistic option is to convert the game to our new Trine 2 tech, update the graphics, add online multiplayer (same as Trine 2 basically), and then work it out to new platforms. But this would be a massive undertaking, so truth be told I think we rather work on our new IP for 2013-2014... (And Splot before that.)

I'd also say that the game's performance on the Wii U is likely in large part due to the fact that the port was done by Frozenbyte themselves, and because the game's been out on other platforms for a while now, they had the time and resources to really get to grips with the console. A lot of the other multiplats we've seen thus far were either simultaneously developed with the other versions, hence fighting for resources (and the bulk of those resources are going to go to the top-selling version, ie XBox360) or they're late ports by small external studios who have to spend most of their time simply getting a handle on the code they're given.

Yeah this probably plays a big part. It is a lot harder to work on someone else's code, especially if that code is under constant changes (i.e. another team working on some other platform or features etc). Since we created our own tech we know it pretty well, and can go digging deep if need be, so that helps a lot.

Any word on it being on sale in North America this month?

Nothing concrete, but we would like to do that. Timing-wise probably the update (mid-December) timeframe would make a lot of sense... We'll see how it goes.

This will be my first purchase on the e-Shop once I get the console three weeks from now; say, is the team happy with sales numbers so far? Efforts like this must be supported!

Thanks (everyone)! We are happy with the sales numbers, it has been good. I've said this before but I've grown fond of this now myself, so I'll repeat it: the eShop has restored our faith in console downloadable games, at least to a degree.

I would love to get this, but as it'll likely never be released for JPN, I'll probably not get the chance.

No word on the Japan release - it's surprisingly difficult to get this done, the game hasn't even been released on XBLA or PSN there. We'd be keen to do it, especially if we could get some voices...

Isn't there Wii Classic Controller support as well?

Ah, yes, the game should support it.

right now it seems like there's a discount on the game on the Wii U eShop, what is going to be the regular price?

Yeah there's a -20% discount in Europe (+ AU/NZ) at the moment. Possibly we'll have it in North America later this month (we wanted to do it for launch but it wasn't possible due to certain factors). Anyhow here's the European launch discount prices (until 31.12.2012 23:59 CET, 22:59 in the UK):

EUR 13,49 (regular 16,99)
GBP 10,99 (regular 13,99)
CHF 15,99 (regular 19,99)
NOK 89,00 (regular 119,00)
SEK 109,00 (regular 139,00)
DKK 89,00 (regular 119,00)
PLN 54,99 (regular 69,99)
RUB 539,00 (regular 679,00)
AUD 15,99 (regular 19,99)
NZD 19,99 (regular 24,99)

What the hell is up with the snake in the Wii U version? The mesh looks fucked up. I mean, compare the head to the 360 and PS3 versions.

Not sure what you mean... It looks fine/the same? For example 09:20: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UinkHKJhZgM (ignoring the washed out colors) We're not particularly proud of the snake though, it's not a high point of the game...

 

[Lord Error]

I'm surprised that DF has decided that WiiU version has best image quality. Doesn't seem like that from the images, as there seems to be no AA on WiiU version, and some, pretty decent looking form of AA used on X360. I guess it depends how often the resolution is scaled down dynamically on the other two versions, but from the developer comment it sounded like it happens very rarely.

 

[Shin Johnpv]

First, thanks for coming here and answering questions, I'm really digging Trine 2. More games like it need to be made, so thank you guys for making them!

..... so truth be told I think we rather work on our new IP for 2013-2014... (And Splot before that.)


Thanks (everyone)! We are happy with the sales numbers, it has been good. I've said this before but I've grown fond of this now myself, so I'll repeat it: the eShop has restored our faith in console downloadable games, at least to a degree.

With those 2 things said, is there a good chance that your new IP will make it to the Wii U as well? Totally understand if cause of NDAs and the like if you can't say anything, figured I'd ask though.

 

[nickcv]

thanks for your answers Joel!

i know you cannot give us the actual amount of sales numbers, but did they meet or exceed your expectation?
are you going to consider making other games for Wii U?

 

[moniker]

Not sure what you mean... It looks fine/the same? For example 09:20: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UinkHKJhZgM (ignoring the washed out colors) We're not particularly proud of the snake though, it's not a high point of the game...

Maybe it's just in that screenshot, but there are some weird distortions there (Wii U on the left):

 

[fabricated backlash]

I noticed the brightness problem on the Wii U too and I don't think my monitor (ASUS VW246h) has that RGB option. I put the brightness down and it mostly solves the problem I think. Still, a patch would be nice.

Loving the game and the gamepad is sooo useful.

And it looks just phenomenal on the gamepad. Playing this at night in bed, before going to sleep is just amazing. My personal highlight of the launch along with Nano Assault and ZombiU.

Also the launch discount is encouraging to see more dev/Pub put out sales or discounts for their digital games on WiiU.

 

[AlStrong]

This is what I got by picking some brighter brains: "Actual lighting calculations are the same with and without the 4th render target. Without it, ambient will be rendered as a separate render pass."

Thanks!

 

[Barack Lesnar]

You'd be one of the first posters in this thread if it were running at, say, 10% less frames per second. This game isn't filled with complex set pieces in linear shooting galleries, sure, but it is 2.5d and looks/runs great. It is probably the first title that is better in "every" way than its older console counterparts, not just "some" ways or none at all. That also likely explains the thread length.

Not really. No need to be so defensive.

 

[Krakatoa]

Game looks awesome. I will be purchasing it from the estore this weekend.

Can't wait!!

 

[Donnie]

I'm surprised that DF has decided that WiiU version has best image quality. Doesn't seem like that from the images, as there seems to be no AA on WiiU version, and some, pretty decent looking form of AA used on X360. I guess it depends how often the resolution is scaled down dynamically on the other two versions, but from the developer comment it sounded like it happens very rarely.

DF probably realise that the much higher brightness makes any aliasing more obvious. Check out the comparison video however and you can actually see the higher resolution on WiiU at times despite the brightness being much higher.

 

[vareon]

Thanks (everyone)! We are happy with the sales numbers, it has been good. I've said this before but I've grown fond of this now myself, so I'll repeat it: the eShop has restored our faith in console downloadable games, at least to a degree.

This is good news. Looking forward to anything you guys will release next!

 

[AlStrong]

DF probably realise that the much higher brightness makes any aliasing more obvious. Check out the comparison video however and you can actually see the higher resolution on WiiU at times despite the brightness being much higher.

The sub-720p doesn't really kick in for most of their footage/gallery. The blurriness is mostly due to the particular FXAA settings.

 

[Donnie]

The sub-720p doesn't really kick in for their footage/gallery. The blurriness is mostly due to the particular FXAA settings.

Then what's happening with the water at the beginning of the WiiU/360 comparison video? WiiU version looks much cleaner their. I don't mean the water on 360 looks blurred either, rather there's more aliasing/shimmering.

 

[AlStrong]

So what's happening with the water at the beginning of the WiiU/360 comparison video? The water on WiiU looks noticeably cleaner, I don't mean the water on 360 looks blurred either, rather there's more aliasing/shimmering.

There are settings for water/shader quality IIRC.

 

[Donnie]

There are settings for water quality IIRC.

I get that, but I'm looking specifically at the shimmering/aliased look of the water. The kind of thing normally brought about by lack of resolution or filtering. If its definitely not from a lower resolution then maybe its better filtering on WiiU version? (trilinear vs anisotropic?).

 

[Kai Dracon]

I'm kind of surprised DF hasn't done Tekken Tag 2 for Wii U yet, considering it's supposed to be the other "best 3rd party port" at launch.

Based on the media I've seen of it, it appears identical to the PS360 versions and doesn't suffer more frame drops than they do.

 

[blu]

I get that, but I'm looking specifically at the shimmering/aliased look of the water. The kind of thing normally brought about by lack of resolution or filtering. If its definitely not from a lower resolution then maybe its better filtering on WiiU version? (trilinear vs anisotropic?).

Trilinear on oblique surfaces normally eats details, i.e. it overfilters (due to the isotropic nature of the technique clashing with the anisotropic nature of the oblique surfaces), not the other way around. Shimmering is caused by undersampling/underfiltering, e.g. bilinear on oblique surfaces could cause it.

 

[AlStrong]

I'm kind of surprised DF hasn't done Tekken Tag 2 for Wii U yet

Lots to do I imagine.

 

[omonimo]

I'm not want sounds like a troll, but this kind of a game probably has the best fit for the Wii U hardware (visually linear, 'scrolling platform'), probably will happens more than a time, but honestly I'm not expected a suddenly change in the route for the next face off, Tekken a part, maybe.

 

[Donnie]

Trilinear on oblique surfaces normally eats details, i.e. it overfilters (due to the isotropic nature of the technique clashing with the anisotropic nature of the oblique surfaces), not the other way around. Shimmering is caused by undersampling/underfiltering, e.g. bilinear on oblique surfaces could cause it.

Yeah you're right, I was actually going to suggest bilinear but I thought it was barely ever used anymore

 

[SapientWolf]

I'm kind of surprised DF hasn't done Tekken Tag 2 for Wii U yet, considering it's supposed to be the other "best 3rd party port" at launch.

Based on the media I've seen of it, it appears identical to the PS360 versions and doesn't suffer more frame drops than they do.

TTT2 runs at 60fps, so you'd need 60fps media to see the drops.

 

[Donnie]

I'm not want sounds like a troll, but this kind of a game probably has the best fit for the Wii U hardware (visually linear, 'scrolling platform'), probably will happens more than a time, but honestly I'm not expected a suddenly change in the route for the next face off, Tekken a part, maybe.

You definitely won't see a sudden change for the next face off, as they'll still be using currently released launch games. The change will be mostly gradual as developers get to grips with the hardware, don't expect it to be limited to certain kinds of games either.

 

[omonimo]

You definitely won't see a sudden change for the next face off, as they'll still be using currently released launch games. The change will be mostly gradual as developers get to grips with the hardware, and won't be limited to certain kinds of games either.

Unfortunately not will be. CPU is really, really terrible on wiiU. Games with a lot of NPC, not has so much hope to run so good in this hardware. & I expect more troubles in the free roam too.

 

[Donnie]

Unfortunately not will be. CPU is really, really terrible on wiiU. Games with a lot of NPC, not has so much hope to run so good in this hardware. & I expect more troubles in the free roam too.

You mean like Assassins Creed 3?, which is actually one of the best running ports on WiiU.

Seriously, you say you weren't trying to troll but you're now pulling out some rather silly and vitriolic comments.

 

[omonimo]

You mean like Assassins Creed 3?, which is actually one of the best running ports on WiiU.

Seriously, you say you weren't trying to troll but you're now pulling out some rather silly and vitriolic comments.

It's not what I said, but I not will be surprise if wiiU could run worse of the ps360 in some moments. What has of vitriolic & silly my comment, if I can ask? :/

 

[Donnie]

It's not what I said, but I not will be surprise if wiiU could run worse of the ps360 in some moments. What has of vitriolic & silly my comment, if I can ask? :/

Well a comment like "CPU is really, really terrible on wiiU" seems vitriolic and rather silly IMO.

Also no comment on Assassins Creed 3? A game with loads of characters on screen which despite being a launch port runs very well on WiiU.

On topic, I've never played any Trine games so Trine 2 is on my WiiU shopping list.

 

[omonimo]

A comment like "CPU is really, really terrible on wiiU" is vitriol and rather silly IMO.

Also no comment on Assassins Creed 3? A game with loads of characters on screen which despite being a launch port runs very well on WiiU.

I assure to you is not vitriol, it's a terrible reality. cpu is not well suited for the hardware & its task. For the edram, cpu is fundamental to share the other tasks, the situation is even more terrible than the ps3 rsx & its bottleneck. About AC3 I expect to see DF article to claim something, forgive me, but I don't believe so much to the personal perception because Blops 2 seems fine for a lot of people but...

 

[JordanN]

It's not what I said, but I not will be surprise if wiiU could run worse of the ps360 in some moments. What has of vitriolic & silly my comment, if I can ask? :/

I also take it you were not surprised when PS2 games ran worse on PS3...

 

[omonimo]

I also take it you were not surprised when PS2 games ran worse on PS3...

Is it ever happened? Keep in mind wiiU & ps360 is not exactly like ps2 - ps3.

 

[Donnie]

I assure to you is not vitriol, it's a terrible reality. cpu is not well suited for the hardware & its task.

The CPU is absolutely suited to its intended use in WiiU, which is not sound processing or any other heavy SIMD work (that's what the DSP and to a lesser extent GPU are there for).

For the edram, cpu is fundamental to share the other tasks, the situation is even more terrible than the ps3 rsx & its bottleneck.

I can't understand that sentence, I've tried reading it several times but its no good, sorry.

About AC3 I expect to see DF article to claim something, forgive me, but I don't believe so much to the personal perception because Blops 2 seems fine for a lot of people but...

Nope, we heard right from the start from some members of GAF that Black Ops had a couple of bad slow down moments on WiiU. What we saw in the DF article was nothing surprising. We haven't heard anything like that about Assassins Creed 3, and from your claims it should be a worse situation than Black Ops.

 

[JordanN]

Is it ever happened? Keep in mind wiiU & ps360 is not exactly like ps2 - ps3.

I recall Silent Hill HD had worse frame rates than the original. There was also a Football game that ran 30fps on PS3 and 60fps on either PS2 or Xbox.

 

[omonimo]

The CPU is absolutely suited to its intended use in WiiU, which is not sound processing or any other heavy SIMD work (that's what the DSP and to a lesser extent GPU are there for).



I can't understand that sentence, I've tried reading it several times but its no good, sorry.

I'm unable to go deeper in the argument, but I'll tries: I assure to you CPU is not well suited to share its task with the edram. It's too slow. At least, reading the last leaks in the net.