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DigitalFoundry: Secrets of the WiiU GamePad

M

marc^o^

Nintendo's Pro Bono PR Firm
No multitouch game could ever be a tenth as important to Nintendo as Miiverse, this self owned social network they are building for decades to come - should they last that long.

All ages are represented on miiverse because it's so convenient to use, no need to zoom in/out.

The screen they use is a design choice they made for these reasons:

- convenience to draw on miiverse
- accuracy with zero latency
- cost

Miiverse is leading their vision, see how fast updates come for it (there was yet another one today).

So this choice makes perfect sense. Not once have I missed multitouch on Wii U, even the internet browser manages to be awesome without it.
 
S

Steve Youngblood

Member
Obviously, this is very subjective, so I'm not really trying to speak on behalf of the market here. But with that preface out of the way, I just personally want to chime in that I'm not in agreement that "you can draw stuff and put it on Miiverse" is really as much of a killer feature as some people think. That's not to say that it's not popular in the least, but I do think the importance of "the screen had to be that way because accurate drawings on our integrated social networking site are a cornerstone of our connected future."

That's not to say that Miiverse itself isn't important (though I rarely use it). But I think it's significance lies more in replicating other social networking features that people have come to expect that center around their games and brands. Being able to draw stuff on the GamePad is a neat hook certainly, but I don't think it's so important a feature that it necessitated the design of the controller. In terms of accuracy, my assumption is that it's more about cost than the fact that the design necessitated that technology.

Of course, I'm really not all that invested in this argument. I'd have preferred capacitive multi-touch myself, but whatevs.
 
G

GuitarAtomik

Member
marc^o^ said:
No multitouch game could ever be a tenth as important to Nintendo as Miiverse, this self owned social network they are building for decades to come - should they last that long.

All ages are represented on miiverse because it's so convenient to use, no need to zoom in/out.

The screen they use is a design choice they made for these reasons:

- convenience to draw on miiverse
- accuracy with zero latency
- cost

Miiverse is leading their vision, see how fast updates come for it (there was yet another one today).

So this choice makes perfect sense. Not once have I missed multitouch on Wii U, even the internet browser manages to be awesome without it.
Click to expand...
Why are people are acting like Miiverse would be impossible with multitouch?
 
E

EvB

Member
marc^o^ said:
The screen they use is a design choice they made for these reasons:

- convenience to draw on miiverse
- accuracy with zero latency
- cost
Click to expand...

What a bunch of nonsense. There is only 1 reason there that they opted for the screen they did.

hint: it's not the first 2!
 
M

Mondriaan

Member
Miiverse is really strange. There is some sort of zoom-in so that pixel level precision doesn't really matter that much, and then it's not even using the entire usable area of the pad for drawing.

Given the way miiverse works, it would be very do-able on a tablet (with a capacitive touch screen) since the pixels could be huge, given the resolution of a miiverse picture.
 
F

flippedb

Banned
When you can do drawings like these on your Vita's super kewl multi touch screen, with your fat fingers, give me a heads up

painting.png
zlCfzQ9-0m4XMIjL_V
zlCfzQ-EnWEEF6AuuO
zlCfzQ-B_9Ayfa3Tpu
zlCfzQ-HWGoFyLnUx8
painting_1.png
Click to expand...

#TeamResistive
 
B

bart64

Banned
Mondriaan said:
That reason was all about going from having unstructured fun to doing rote drudgery in my recollection.
Click to expand...

Haha, good point.

Although as an iPad, Wacom, and WiiU owner with art and design experience, I have never had so much fun drawing as with the stylus on Miiverse. I think they spent a lot of effort taking advantage of the accuracy of the stylus to aid in pixel art creation. It just would not work the same with your finger or a fake sylus nub thing.

Seriously, until you draw something on Miiverse don't knock it--you will want to take back your words.
 
S

Sendou

Member
ElFly said:
Um so there are drivers to use the Gamepad with a PC already? Hopefully streaming a pc's video to it?
Click to expand...

I hope this would happen one way or another. Just the idea of being able to play your PC games on GamePad is interesting. Does anyone know if this is even possible in theory?
 
M

metalslimer

Member
StevieP said:
Beyond any other knowledge, it is illegal to lie to investors, and that's what a "per hardware loss" means. It didn't include r and d.
Click to expand...

I'm critical of Nintendo, but people really need to stop with the bullshit Iwata is lying about taking a loss on the system. Taking a loss on the system would actually lower investor confidence because it means profit margins will disappear. The idea that one would actually lie to investors and make them lose confidence is the dumbest thing I've seen on this board since intentional shortage. There are a lot of reasons to criticize Nintendo. There is no need to devolve into delusional bullshit. WHat's more likely is that the exotic hardware of Wii U is driving the cost up.
 
S

SlowRevolution

Member
I haven't used any so maybe they suck, but why haven't the pixel art apps for tablets/phones been mentioned? I get that there's a difference between those and the resistive screens Nintendo uses, but I'm interested in hearing if anyone's had experience with them.

Starfish Hero said:
This isn't the age of the palm pilot and DS. Wii U and even 3DS touch screens don't feel bad at all.
Click to expand...

Resistive screens have improved, but there's still a huge difference in feel going from an iPhone/iPad to a 3DS.
 
A

ArcaneFreeze

Member
if people are gonna pair screens why not compare wiiU to vitas since its multitouch. i have yet to see anything done with vitas multitouch screen that cant be done/replicated on wiiu. yet i have yet to see vita do things suchs as drawings with the accuracy of wiius/3ds.

people are always complaining about the price of the wiiu yet all their examples of 'drawing on multitouch screens' use devices/tech that would raise the wiiu's price even more, ntm everyone is arguing multitouch yet no drawing uses multitouch capabilities. can the accuracy of resistive touch screens be replicated on capactive screens? of course. is it going to cost more to get that accuracy compared to resistive? you bet it is. at the end of the day its price vs usefulness, and for what the wiiu is offering multitouch isnt adding much.
 
Q

QaaQer

Member
StevieP said:
Beyond any other knowledge, it is illegal to lie to investors, and that's what a "per hardware loss" means. It didn't include r and d.
Click to expand...

I'm guessing you dont know what is and what isn't included in Iwata's math, nor do I. I'll leave it at that.
 
P

PdotMichael

Banned
So the main target group of the Wii U are pixel "artists"?
Well, I understand now why the sales are so bad.

Just compare everything on the WiiU with LittleBigPlanet for the Vita. And say again that the WiiU gamepad is superior to what the Vita can deliever.
 
A

ArcaneFreeze

Member
PdotMichael said:
So the main target group of the Wii U are pixel "artists"?
Well, I understand now why the sales are so bad.

Just compare everything on the WiiU with LittleBigPlanet for the Vita. And say again that the WiiU gamepad is superior to what the Vita can deliever.
Click to expand...

I'm watching videos of LittleBigPlanet Vita right now and im not seeing anything that cant be done with the WiiU. Its mostly button commands with the occasional touch screen commands. Actually reminded me of Trine 2 on WiiU using the touchscreen to control objects with the Wizard.

And to add to the thread I'd like to add Theatrythm Final Fantasy 3DS vs iOS. Having played both version's I can say the 3DS one definitely plays alot better and feels much more accurate than the iOS version.
 
F

flippedb

Banned
ArcaneFreeze said:
I'm watching videos of LittleBigPlanet Vita right now and im not seeing anything that cant be done with the WiiU. Its mostly button commands with the occasional touch screen commands. Actually reminded me of Trine 2 on WiiU using the touchscreen to control objects with the Wizard.

And to add to the thread I'd like to add Theatrythm Final Fantasy 3DS vs iOS. Having played both version's I can say the 3DS one definitely plays alot better and feels much more accurate than the iOS version.
Click to expand...

B-but disgusting resistive touchscreens! Nintendo uses shit technology!
 
M

Madouu

Member
I don't know how the subject topic ended up being on touch screens only but I'll chime in and say I prefer the Wii U/3DS touchscreens to those of my multi-touch devices for the use I make of them.
 
W

wsippel

Banned
This pointless discussion is still going strong I see...

Again: The GamePad is already fucking expensive and the touchscreen does what it's supposed to do. It really doesn't matter if there are better solutions unless those solutions also happen to cost the same or less.
 
E

ElectricKaibutsu

Member
Maybe people could start thinking of the stylus and resistive touchscreen as more like a mouse. Only one pointer but accurate. Like in Metroid Prime Hunters for the DS; that wouldn't work on a capacitive screen. Right? There's no FPS games on phones, are there? Serious question.

Since the Wii U has two analog sticks I know we're not going to see touchscreen based FPSs, but still, Hunters shows there are good games that work better on a resistive screen which is my point. Poking people in the head with your finger sounds pretty silly for an FPS.
 
S

Starfish Hero

Member
ElectricKaibutsu said:
Maybe people could start thinking of the stylus and resistive touchscreen as more like a mouse. Only one pointer but accurate. Like in Metroid Prime Hunters for the DS; that wouldn't work on a capacitive screen. Right? There's no FPS games on phones, are there? Serious question.

Since the Wii U has two analog sticks I know we're not going to see touchscreen based FPSs, but still, Hunters shows there are good games that work better on a resistive screen which is my point. Poking people in the head with your finger sounds pretty silly for an FPS.
Click to expand...

There are a handful. All of them have virtual analog sticks for control, but the ones with gyro aiming play the best.
 
S

shinra-bansho

Member
metalslimer said:
I'm critical of Nintendo, but people really need to stop with the bullshit Iwata is lying about taking a loss on the system. Taking a loss on the system would actually lower investor confidence because it means profit margins will disappear. The idea that one would actually lie to investors and make them lose confidence is the dumbest thing I've seen on this board since intentional shortage. There are a lot of reasons to criticize Nintendo. There is no need to devolve into delusional bullshit. WHat's more likely is that the exotic hardware of Wii U is driving the cost up.
Click to expand...
What exotic hardware though?

I don't think Iwata lied, although I don't know if the comment itself was made in the context of being under the scrutiny of the SEC or equivalent. But I cannot see where this cost is going.

I would assume it took money to get the performance of a 360 into that tiny box, to get the power efficiency that it wouldn't need complicated and costly cooling systems. But that's R&D.

The per unit build cost doesn't seem like it should exceed what they're charging, since we now know and kind of knew all along, the tablet controller itself is not exactly top of the line.

The only things that come to mind are A) they are giving retailers very generous margins (but MCV's trade prices for the UK SKUs did not seem that out of line) or B) that at the time the yen was at a historic high against the dollar, and consequently they may have been selling at a loss in the US specifically.
 
S

Starfish Hero

Member
shinra-bansho said:
What exotic hardware though?

I don't think Iwata lied, although I don't know if the comment itself was made in the context of being under the scrutiny of the SEC or equivalent. But I cannot see where this cost is going.

I would assume it took money to get the performance of a 360 into that tiny box, to get the power efficiency that it wouldn't need complicated and costly cooling systems. But that's R&D.

The per unit build cost doesn't seem like it should exceed what they're charging, since we now know and kind of knew all along, the tablet controller itself is not exactly top of the line.

The only things that come to mind are A) they are giving retailers very generous margins (but MCV's trade prices for the UK SKUs did not seem that out of line) or B) that at the time the yen was at a historic high against the dollar, and consequently they may have been selling at a loss in the US specifically.
Click to expand...

This is what I thought was the case, but considering that situation has since been rectified and Nintendo didn't state at the investors meeting (or, well, at all) that the Wii U is now being sold at a profit, I don't think so anymore.
 
F

FyreWulff

Member
Resistive is always going to be more accurate and less latent than capacitive. Cap isn't automatically better than resistive, nor is resist automatically better than everything than cap. I think my co-work paying 3,000$ for a resistive digital input monitor goes to show capacitive has a ways to go for artists.


In gaming, resistive gives you much less latency and higher precision.

Capacitive lets you get multitouch. At the cost of latency. It has to figure out which cloud of inputs is where you intend to point, then it has to figure out the intended center point of those cloud of inputs. Then it has to do this for every single individual unique input you want to be able to support. There's no way around.


The vast majority of multitouch functionality on iOS is used for virtual buttons.. which the Wii U Gamepad already has, and it has more buttons than you could comfortably virtualize on the screen. Zooming is nice, but we have a + and - button. Pinch zoom is the only big example of what multitouch would bring to the Wii U Gamepad.

In theory, what people want is resistive multitouch, which exists, but is not cost friendly at the moment.

ThoughtsOfSpeaking said:
What does that to do with it?

but ok....

original


original


Lets not even bring up what an ipad and sketchbook pro can do in the right hands....
Click to expand...

Ignoring the art skill of each example, it's clear the resistive screen drawings imitate the thin lines of pencil drawings, while those capacitive drawings look like they were done with markers.
 
C

Cuburt

Member
smh I come to GAF to read some interesting insight about Wi-Fi streaming (which has admittedly been known since before launch) and what if could mean for the future used of the Gamepad (potential cloud gaming in the future if Nintendo was so inclined) and instead I find 7 pages arguing about touch screens and a few people daydreaming about buying a Wii U to use the Gamepad with their PC. lol
 
M

mrklaw

MrArseFace
Margalis said:
Honestly to me the touch is far less relevant than having a screen.

I like the touch - it's good for using the web browser, for navigating Netflix, for drawing in Miiverse and for entering text via the software keyboard. However when it comes to games having a second screen (or a portable screen) is much more important than what form of touch the screen has if it has any at all.

If the screen had no touch whatsoever my game playing experience wouldn't change that much.

I don't consider it a tablet - it's a controller with a screen. With touch. In that order of importance.

At no point playing a game have I ever thought "this would be better with multitouch", nor have I ever thought "man I wish this had a bunch of iOS ports!" Pinch to zoom would be nice in the web browser - that's all I've got as far as realistic ways multitouch would make my life better.

Pinch to zoom on an in-game map? My hands are busy playing the game, I'd rather tap a button with my thumb.
Click to expand...

This. And I like to think that was at least partly conscious choice from Nintendo (influenced by cost too I expect). They don't want the focus to be touch.

I doubt being able to draw pretty pictures on miiverse had anything to do with it. That feature might not even have existed when the screen was decided on, and certainly they wouldn't have known how popular it would become
 
E

ElectricKaibutsu

Member
FyreWulff said:
Resistive is always going to be more accurate and less latent than capacitive. Cap isn't automatically better than resistive, nor is resist automatically better than everything than cap. I think my co-work paying 3,000$ for a resistive digital input monitor goes to show capacitive has a ways to go for artists.


In gaming, resistive gives you much less latency and higher precision.

Capacitive lets you get multitouch. At the cost of latency. It has to figure out which cloud of inputs is where you intend to point, then it has to figure out the intended center point of those cloud of inputs. Then it has to do this for every single individual unique input you want to be able to support. There's no way around.


The vast majority of multitouch functionality on iOS is used for virtual buttons.. which the Wii U Gamepad already has, and it has more buttons than you could comfortably virtualize on the screen. Zooming is nice, but we have a + and - button. Pinch zoom is the only big example of what multitouch would bring to the Wii U Gamepad.

In theory, what people want is resistive multitouch, which exists, but is not cost friendly at the moment.



Ignoring the art skill of each example, it's clear the resistive screen drawings imitate the thin lines of pencil drawings, while those capacitive drawings look like they were done with markers.
Click to expand...

This sounds right to me.
 
G

Goodlife

Member
People with more mobile gaming experience than me....

Have you got an example of games that can't be done on the Gamepad?
Not just a list of multitouch ones, but ones that can't be done with touchscreen + button.

For Android, preferably, so I can have a play with them.
 
G

Goodlife

Member
Goodlife said:
People with more mobile gaming experience than me....

Have you got an example of games that can't be done on the Gamepad?
Not just a list of multitouch ones, but ones that can't be done with touchscreen + button.

For Android, preferably, so I can have a play with them.
Click to expand...

Anyone?
 
P

ProfessorMoran

Member
big youth said:
The GamePad itself isn't anywhere near as complex as even the most basic Android tablet

might be correct on some technical level, but in terms of possibilities it seems to me the Gamepad can do everything tablets can do and more, because of the 2nd screen.
Click to expand...

At least it's more complex than a kindle, right?
 
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