I simply pointed out that there are those that don't understand the benefits and either hang on superficial things that don't matter or join the hate bandwagon with no real reason other than they want to look cool to some of their other friends.
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DirectX 11.2 revealed
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I simply pointed out that there are those that don't understand the benefits and either hang on superficial things that don't matter or join the hate bandwagon with no real reason other than they want to look cool to some of their other friends.
TouchMyBox
Member
I feel the same way, but because I feel that a medium shouldn't be tied to a corporate entity because that tends to have negative implications. I wouldn't expect tangible increases in performance though.
D3RANG3D
Member
No
That's another way of calling someone dumb. Keep piling on the insults ..
Theonik
Member
In that case, there isn't really any magical performance to be had by dropping DirectX. APIs altogether has some inherent overhead associated with them, but people who ask for them to be dropped typically do not understand the real development reasons why these APIs exist in the first place.
Edit: As for performance benefits from switching to OGL, who knows. Would depend on the use cases of individual software if anything.
Since this thread has been off topic for a while and is now about Win8 hate...
I bought a new laptop 6 months ago. I was prepared to hate Win 8 form the get go but then, I discovered you can get rid of the tiled menu and boot straight to the familiar desktop. I use Classic Shell for this, but there are many alternatives. After installing this, I found myself in front of the Win7 I got used to, just cleaner and faster.
Just do that and Win8 is a fine OS. Microsoft is finally addressing this with the 8.1 update, maybe that will change the general opinion.
I bought a new laptop 6 months ago. I was prepared to hate Win 8 form the get go but then, I discovered you can get rid of the tiled menu and boot straight to the familiar desktop. I use Classic Shell for this, but there are many alternatives. After installing this, I found myself in front of the Win7 I got used to, just cleaner and faster.
Just do that and Win8 is a fine OS. Microsoft is finally addressing this with the 8.1 update, maybe that will change the general opinion.
Mengy
wishes it were bannable to say mean things about Marvel
I've tried Windows 8, and I understand how it works, I simply didn't like it. I like Windows 7 better.
Now, what insult are you going to throw my way? Or are you done calling people who disagree with you degrading names like a grade school kid?
LukasTaves
Member
Because people don't want to pin 20 things to their fucking taskbar
Then use the start screen which allows you to pin a gazillion more things than you could on both the taskbar and the start menu.
What specifically don't you like about it? Windows 8, outside of the Start Screen that takes people off guard, is an enhanced Windows 7 that is faster, offers easier access to power user functions, more advanced multi-monitor support and bridges the gap on computing devices of all sizes for a more steramlined environment to work in no matter what you are using to do computational tasks. There is literally no reason to like Windows 7 over 8 especially with programs like ClassicShell, Oblytile, etc.
what is left to elaborate ? if you've never coded using different APIs or simply don't trust a stranger (me) maybe you'd rather believe known devs such as Valve
you don't trust Valve either ? have a look at this
come on DirectX API is plain slow, easy ? it depends where you're coming from, well-documented ? definitely and that's a plus, but that's all about it.
I don't know why people get so defensive when pointing the cons of DirectX, also when I said "caps PC gaming" I mean it caps the actual, better performance we would be getting with a modern, different API.
LukasTaves
Member
I don't think you understood what those benchies mean... They are talking about the overhead of calling a native api using a managed environment, that says nothing about the performance of the native api itself.
Vestal
Gold Member
You should have gone a step further and explained why APIs are needed, just so everyone understand.
Before the advent of DirectX and OpenGL and still to some extent during the early years of both of these APIs, Developers needed to code their software for specific hardware. Remember the days of setting up autoexec.bat to load particular drivers and interrrupts, having to screw with the game config for hours on end to get everything to work right? well that is 1 of the main things that these APIs helped get rid off.
The API works as a layer that provides you with functions which can talk with the Hardware directly in its language and specifics without you having to code for that specific hardware.
Vestal
Gold Member
Thats a rather skewed Benchmark since it depends on C# which is not the language used for high fidelity games..
Offcourse valve would say that, they are in open war against Microsoft over the past few years. They had to work on OpenGL to get it to work in Linux, I am sure if they put that same effort into updating things on the DX end of things they could get similar results.
Felix Lighter
Member
You're using benchmarks between managed and unmanaged code. .Net is slower than native C++.
I have posted OpenGL vs DirectX -API vs API- and managed code vs DirectX for reference too, yet you are not happy either way, what can I say, I've worked with several APIs and Microsoft prehistorical one is always the low performer, am I the only one feeling this ? nope, but you don't care and you don't trust those claiming it, I've nothing more to add, we can always agree to disagree and just get along : )
Theonik
Member
The Valve blog he linked is still valid, though as I said how much faster OGL ends up being depends on the software at hand. OGL IS faster though which I believe was his point.
legacyzero
Banned
NOPE.
Not gonna use 8. No.
Not gonna use 8. No.
SapientWolf
Trucker Sexologist
So are Intel integrated graphics. I have a feeling that the majority of new PC purchases are notebooks, tablets or netbooks. Most pre-built gaming PCs still ship with W7 by default, and people on W7 that didn't get W8 at $15 aren't going to upgrade now at full price.
Devs have no incentive to add DX 11.2 features if the overwhelming majority of their playerbase can't use them.
Felix Lighter
Member
I don't want to come off as someone opposed to wider spread use of OpenGL. I completely agree moving away from MS's APIs is good for the industry and for us just due to its crossplatform nature. I'm sure there are plenty of cases where OpenGL can out shine DirectX and vice-versa but the original claim that DirectX is strongly capping PC gaming performance on modern hardware in some substantial way that will be solved by abandoning the API for another, is overstating things quite a bit, I think.
plagiarize
Banned
well, apart from the Xbox One multiplats. those will likely use 11.2 features. this isn't like DX10 where the only thing it had going for it was Vista. they'll already have the 11.2 features in place, and they'll have plenty of incentive to make sure their games still work on regular DX11 with Windows 7 users.
Delusibeta
Banned
Windows 8 exclusive? Nobody cares about it, then. Betcha multiformats would still use DirectX 11 on Xbone.
Mengy
wishes it were bannable to say mean things about Marvel
It's been awhile since I gave it a shot, but off the top of my head:
- Win8 boots directly to Metro at startup. Sure classic shell is easy to get to, but why not allow PC users to boot directly to the "Win7" mode?
- I hated Metro, completely wrong for a PC desktop machine
- the search seemed convoluted and needlessly more difficult to use
- backwards compatibility was worse. I have a few older PC games and applications that I still run in Win7 that I could not get running in Win8, no matter how hard I tried.
So yeah, I have reasons to like Win7 over Win8. I could possibly investigate into getting mods or such that would fix my issues with Win8 right up, but you know, when Win7 works beautifully and without issue for me, what exactly is the incentive to bother? I returned Win 8 for a refund.
YouEnjoyMySelf
Banned
Metro is such crap on a desktop.
Vestal
Gold Member
Yeah somehow OpenGL is better yet 90% of the games that come out are Direct3D.... Even Carmack a staunch proponent of OpenGL is on the Direct3D bandwagon.
http://www.bit-tech.net/news/gaming/2011/03/11/carmack-directx-better-opengl/
Don't agree with you on this one, just hit the windows key and start typing, couldn't be easier.
If you already got the cheap Windows 8 deal and these problems made you get a refund and almost guarantee you stay on an older OS, that is the exact opposite of smart. You went into it not liking it and let superficial things hold you back
GoldenEye 007
Member
Those companies probably have no need for DX11 if they're on XP, though. And they should be ashamed. Fucking hell it's been almost 15 years now.. let XP go.
At LEAST start using 7. *yells at my company for still using XP*
8 preferably, though. I like 8.
plagiarize
Banned
8.1 lets you boot right to the desktop, and is making huge changes to the way it handles search. I doubt that'll make you like Metro or BC, but for people that don't like 8, 8.1 is going to be an easier pill to swallow all around.
It's not longer like that as they now split the search between apps, settings, and I think documents? So now by default it only searches your apps, very annoying.
LukasTaves
Member
In 8.1 that's now a option without the need of 3rd party tools.
They are making metro work better with mouse and keyboard with 8.1 too. Metro IE11 is awesome to use with a keyboard and a mouse, and the new side by side view (you can now open multiple tabs at the same time), also greatly improves it efficiency. You can now dock many metro applications side by side, with adjusting widths, even on multiple monitors.
Also, you can now not even see the start screen if you want because you can default the start button to the all apps view. Which is now is customizable to show desktop apps first, and sorteable with a few cool options, so you can use it as start menu that shows more apps than before.
Search in 8.1 was really improved too. Now you have a all in one place search that looks in your apps (even inside the apps themselves), files, settings, and on the web. Ms also announced yesterday that now developers will be able to use bing as a platform for integrating bing (siri like voice commands, context based info and lots of cool stuff) inside the apps.
Not sure if there's any improvement on that one.
I know you disliked W8, but if that was all that bothered you, you should definitely give 8.1 a try.
This sounds really good, didn't like W8 very much seemed a little half baked. 8.1 looks to alleviate most of the issues the previous had, so I'll give this preview a shot and pick up a copy if I find it to my liking
Not sure what to make of the new software tech, everyone seems to be horning that the software already exists in a rudimentary form with other developers. I guess we'll see how it takes shape on X1.
Not sure what to make of the new software tech, everyone seems to be horning that the software already exists in a rudimentary form with other developers. I guess we'll see how it takes shape on X1.
Mengy
wishes it were bannable to say mean things about Marvel
If you already got the cheap Windows 8 deal and these problems made you get a refund and almost guarantee you stay on an older OS, that is the exact opposite of smart. You went into it not liking it and let superficial things hold you back
It wasn't a cheap deal, I paid quite a bit for Win 8. Thankfully I got a full refund. And why is choosing something I like the exact opposite of smart? Or are you simply saying that because I disagree with you I am stupid?
I don't like your derogatory attitude towards anyone who disagrees with you, Damian. I'm a consumer, I buy what I want to buy and I don't buy things I don't like. I did not like Win 8, so I chose to stay with Win 7. If Win 8.1 or some later update makes the new OS into something more compatible and suitable for me then I'll take another look at it. As Win 8 sits today, it's not for me.
How old are you? Maybe you are just young and immature, I could excuse you if that was the case....
Thanks a bunch Lukas, 8.1 does sound like they are addressing a lot of the problems. I'll wait and see if they also address the backwards compatibility issues, if they do then I may just take another chance with Win 8.
See Damian, Lukas made a very nice and constructive post and just might have convinced me to give 8 another shot, and he never called me stupid while doing it.
Theonik
Member
This discussion has become somewhat confusing with all the people involved on each side, I agree with you. I didn't notice that this was the same poster that made that claim about DX being the thing holding all of PC gaming back otherwise I wouldn't have replied.
cripterion
Member
You guys sure enjoy shitting this thread with comments like this.
I've noticed.
It wasn't a cheap deal, I paid quite a bit for Win 8. Thankfully I got a full refund. And why is choosing something I like the exact opposite of smart? Or are you simply saying that because I disagree with you I am stupid?
I don't like your derogatory attitude towards anyone who disagrees with you, Damian. I'm a consumer, I buy what I want to buy and I don't buy things I don't like. I did not like Win 8, so I chose to stay with Win 7. If Win 8.1 or some later update makes the new OS into something more compatible and suitable for me then I'll take another look at it. As Win 8 sits today, it's not for me.
How old are you? Maybe you are just young and immature, I could excuse you if that was the case....
Thanks a bunch Lukas, 8.1 does sound like they are addressing a lot of the problems. I'll wait and see if they also address the backwards compatibility issues, if they do then I may just take another chance with Win 8.
See Damian, Lukas made a very nice and constructive post and just might have convinced me to give 8 another shot, and he never called me stupid while doing it.
If you read what I said, then you would understand that it does not apply to you, since you did not get the too good to pass up deal on Windows 8.
Also if you go back, my "derogatory" comments were against those who indeed ignorantly bashed the OS with indeed ignorant comments. I never called anyone stupid, but I did point out that they lacked the intelligence to make proper decisions and discuss the issue at hand correctly. It's not bad to not know things. Don't get offended when someone points out flaws that should be addressed in order to have a good discussion of facts.
Honest question for those who have Windows 8 for a desktop PC (not bashing).
What use is metro for you?
I've got 8 at work and I honestly can't find one use for it that replaces something I would rather use the desktop for.
I'm really not bashing, I just can't see the appeal when almost every app in metro feels like a dumb downed (in terms of options) app that mimics desktop functions.
So far the most use I've had out of it was for running my music in side snap ... but even then I'd rather use something like Musicbee which allows me to do so much more. Same with twitter apps, tweetdock allows me to do way more at this stage and that's just docked inside a chrome tab.
My experience with Win 8 has been Win 7 with a better search function but a rather annoying shell that seems to pop up more than it should. Which in itself is fine, considering I didn't pay for it as the Work supplied it, so not really have any remorse of it.
What use is metro for you?
I've got 8 at work and I honestly can't find one use for it that replaces something I would rather use the desktop for.
I'm really not bashing, I just can't see the appeal when almost every app in metro feels like a dumb downed (in terms of options) app that mimics desktop functions.
So far the most use I've had out of it was for running my music in side snap ... but even then I'd rather use something like Musicbee which allows me to do so much more. Same with twitter apps, tweetdock allows me to do way more at this stage and that's just docked inside a chrome tab.
My experience with Win 8 has been Win 7 with a better search function but a rather annoying shell that seems to pop up more than it should. Which in itself is fine, considering I didn't pay for it as the Work supplied it, so not really have any remorse of it.
Vestal
Gold Member
I use it mostly for at the glance stuff from different feeds, be it weather/tweeter/fb/etc..
The only thing I use Metro for is the badass Minesweeper reboot and using Oblytile to pin extra apps I sometimes use, but don't want cluttering my taskbar all the time. I've also used it for Netflix a couple times.
SneakyStephan
Banned
A failed OS that the public spat out, let's try to twist people's arm into using it anyhow by arbitrarily not updating direct x on old windows versions.
MS up to their old tricks again.
MS up to their old tricks again.