Support NeoGAF

[aliengmr]

People are so quick to shit on other countries in mass but where are they when a thread like this is made? 🤔

What other countries are you referring to? Because US hate is real around here.

 

[Joe]

Roosa added that a major problem with framing the events of 1965 is that it's often claimed the United States simply “stood by,” as the bloodbath occurred, which is incorrect. “It's easy for American commentators to fall into that approach, but the U.S. was part and parcel of the operation, strategizing with the Indonesian army and encouraging them to go after the PKI.”

Someone notify the New York Times

 

[Toxi]

Someone notify the New York Times

Always gotta soften it up.

It's funny, everyone's shocked by the way the US sanitizes our history with slavery and genocide against the native Americans, and then they ignore or downplay our support of atrocities that happened just half a century ago. The more things change, the more they stay the same.

 

[emag]

Intervention in Bosnia didn’t happen until images of dead white Muslims began being broadcasted live on the nightly news. The US and other western nations dragged their fucking feet until it became too much for even them to ignore. The UN’s pathetic “safe heaven” bullshit doesn’t even register in how absolutely worthless that was. Now you’ve got a similar situation happening in Myanmar, yet because it isn’t in Europe, no one can be bothered to do something about it.

Agreed, but my point is that US intervention, even as late as it was, was still a good thing in Bosnia. The US could have saved a lot of lives in Darfur and Rawanda with similar (earlier) actions as well. The claim that any US intervention is necessarily or inherently bad is just false.

 

[Coriolanus]

While the United States' motives might not have been pure, I think the intervention in Korea has generally worked out for the best, mostly because the North Korean regime is just that fucking awful.

The North Korean government controlling the whole peninsula? Yikes. I can't imagine that anyone would rather have that scenario today than the one that we have now.

hmmm, it is problematic to say these things because well, alternative history. With NK/SK we also gotta factor that a non-authoritarian government in SK is quite the recent development aaand that in the other case in the region where the US did eventually have to get the fuck out and let The Baddies do their thing, things *eventually* turned out kinda sorta ok (massively oversimplifying, obv), and then you factor the considerable reduction in the loss of life that such a move could very well cause and... eh.

Could very well be that, had the US not killed a whole fuckload of NK's, a decade after the fact yall would be more than happy to establish relations with Il-Sung, same as you (and most countries in the globe, tbqf) do with so many other horrible bastards.

Obv no garantees there and dude coulda just gone Full Paranoid either way.

 

[Qvoth]

btw suharto is still very much revered in indonesia

 

[emag]

btw suharto is still very much revered in indonesia

Well, his dictatorship killed anyone who didn't show sufficient reverence and ran decades of propaganda programs, so that's not so surprising.

 

[SmackDaddy]

I wish we were the watchdog we claim to be. This planet could be a better place.

It also seems like we start conflict in places where there are natural resources to gain out of it as opposed to actually helping people.

Global politics is crazy complex and I don't know the first thing about it

 

[Piecake]

hmmm, it is problematic to say these things because well, alternative history. With NK/SK we also gotta factor that a non-authoritarian government in SK is quite the recent development aaand that in the other case in the region where the US did eventually have to get the fuck out and let The Baddies do their thing, things *eventually* turned out kinda sorta ok (massively oversimplifying, obv), and then you factor the considerable reduction in the loss of life that such a move could very well cause and... eh.

Could very well be that, had the US not killed a whole fuckload of NK's, a decade after the fact yall would be more than happy to establish relations with Il-Sung, same as you (and most countries in the globe, tbqf) do with so many other horrible bastards.

Obv no garantees there and dude coulda just gone Full Paranoid either way.

Even though both are supposedly communist, the differences between the Vietnamese Communists and North Korean communists are pretty big.

Vietnam Communists were/are basically anti-imperialist nationalists communists who even referenced the US Declaration of Independence. North Korean Communists are essentially a master-race fascist/communist regime dependent on the cult of the leader to 'function'

Nothing is stopping North Korea from turning their shit around like China and Vietnam. Like you said, we also have a not friendly and interventionist history with those nations, but those nations were/became at least competent and functional governments.

North Korea?

I'd say that's pretty good evidence that it would have gone Full Paranoid no matter what.

And even if South Korea didn't turn into a democratic government, that would still be preferable to the disaster that is North Korea.

You also can't make the assumption that there would be less death. The war would still happen, that is for sure. Would the war have less deaths if the United States didn't intervene? Possibly, but if North Korea won, they would just have a shit ton more political prisoners and their families that they would throw in prisons and fail. They would also have a lot more people who would die to the famines that their idiotic policies created.

 

[Azuran]

The US is fucking scum. The damage they did to Latin America in the 60 to 90s is going to take generations to fix.

Read up on the bullshit they did with United Fruit Company to get a picture of how heinous they are. People like Fidel Castro and Hugo Chavez only came into power because of them.

 

[frontovik]

While we're on the topic of the US playing foul; it's worth paying attention to one of its former players who spoke out against it during the 1930s.

Major General Smedley Butler's "War is a Racket"..

WAR is a racket. It always has been.

It is possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious. It is the only one international in scope. It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives.

A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of the people. Only a small "inside" group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few, at the expense of the very many. Out of war a few people make huge fortunes.

In the World War a mere handful garnered the profits of the conflict. At least 21,000 new millionaires and billionaires were made in the United States during the World War. That many admitted their huge blood gains in their income tax returns. How many other war millionaires falsified their tax returns no one knows.

Take our own case. Until 1898 we didn't own a bit of territory outside the mainland of North America. At that time our national debt was a little more than $1,000,000,000. Then we became "internationally minded." We forgot, or shunted aside, the advice of the Father of our country. We forgot George Washington's warning about "entangling alliances." We went to war. We acquired outside territory. At the end of the World War period, as a direct result of our fiddling in international affairs, our national debt had jumped to over $25,000,000,000. Our total favorable trade balance during the twenty-five-year period was about $24,000,000,000. Therefore, on a purely bookkeeping basis, we ran a little behind year for year, and that foreign trade might well have been ours without the wars.

It would have been far cheaper (not to say safer) for the average American who pays the bills to stay out of foreign entanglements. For a very few this racket, like bootlegging and other underworld rackets, brings fancy profits, but the cost of operations is always transferred to the people -- who do not profit.

https://ratical.org/ratville/CAH/warisaracket.html

If WWI was a profitable endeavour for big business, then WWII must've been like winning the lottery for America's elites. It all went downhill from there.

 

[Coriolanus]

Even though both are supposedly communist, the differences between the Vietnamese Communists and North Korean communists are pretty big.

Vietnam Communists were/are basically anti-imperialist nationalists communists who even referenced the US Declaration of Independence. North Korean Communists are essentially a master-race fascist/communist regime dependent on the cult of the leader to 'function'

Nothing is stopping North Korea from turning their shit around like China and Vietnam. Like you said, we also have a not friendly and interventionist history with those nations, but those nations were/became at least competent and functional governments.

North Korea?

I'd say that's pretty good evidence that it would have gone Full Paranoid no matter what.

And even if South Korea didn't turn into a democratic government, that would still be preferable to the disaster that is North Korea.

You also can't make the assumption that there would be less death. The war would still happen, that is for sure. Would the war have less deaths if the United States didn't intervene? Possibly, but if North Korea won, they would just have a shit ton more political prisoners and their families that they would throw in prisons and fail. They would also have a lot more people who would die to the famines that their idiotic policies created.

The comparison with china and vietnam doesn't work there because both of those places did establish control of the territory they felt they were entitled to, and did so through force (well, nearly all in the case of china, obv). NK also did make forays into turning their shit around with Clinton, buuut W. happened. And then Saddam happened. And then Gaddafi happened. So yeah... if you're a dictator from some backwater shithole with a godawful track record on human rights, one could say that there might be some things in recent history suggesting that you might wanna stay the course and stuff.

The things i saw about NK Master Race was that it was eventually derived from juche, and it really took hold after Porcupine Hairdo started flexing his ideological muscles, and that was heavily based on songun, which was heavily impacted by the way the war panned out, so, had Il-Sung been allowed to murder SK into annexation, again, who knows if that's the way the cookie would've crumbled. Didn't in China. Didn't in Nam. Is the problem with alternative historical scenarios.

I can make the assumption that there might've been less deaths, which is exactly what i did. Had i affirmed that there would've deffo have been less deaths, you'd have a point.

You might also read up on the causes for famines. While the regime certainly exacerbated the problem, it most certainly didn't create it.

Don't quite see why they'd go Full Panaroid either way. Can see them going Quite Paranoid, however, same way the Saudis have.

 

[Piecake]

The comparison with china and vietnam doesn't work there because both of those places did establish control of the territory they felt they were entitled to, and did so through force (well, nearly all in the case of china, obv). NK also did make forays into turning their shit around with Clinton, buuut W. happened. And then Saddam happened. And then Gaddafi happened. So yeah... if you're a dictator from some backwater shithole with a godawful track on human records, one could say that there might be some things in recent history suggesting that you might wanna stay the course and stuff.

You might also read up on the causes for famines. While the regime certainly exacerbated the problem, it most certainly didn't create it.

What changes did they make to turn their shit around? The only one that I can recollect is that they were receptive to a nuclear disarmament treaty in exchange for economic perks.

That was, however, scrapped when Bush came in, and, like you mentioned, following events sure incentived them to get/keep that nuke.

I'd hardly call that a foray into turning their shit around because they didn't change their government or economic system, the cause of all their awfulness.

Am I not remembering something?

Also, famines don't happen in this era unless you have a shit government and shit economic policies. Sure, flooding and drought kicked it off, but that only turns into a massive famine if the government is completely incompetent. So yea, I'd say North Korea created the famine.

 

[Moff]

saw the act of killing a few weeks ago, horrible

doesn't surprise me one bit the US had a hand in this

 

[kirblar]

The comparison with china and vietnam doesn't work there because both of those places did establish control of the territory they felt they were entitled to, and did so through force (well, nearly all in the case of china, obv). NK also did make forays into turning their shit around with Clinton, buuut W. happened. And then Saddam happened. And then Gaddafi happened. So yeah... if you're a dictator from some backwater shithole with a godawful track record on human rights, one could say that there might be some things in recent history suggesting that you might wanna stay the course and stuff.

The things i saw about NK Master Race was that it was eventually derived from juche, and it really took hold after Porcupine Hairdo started flexing his ideological muscles, and that was heavily based on songun, which was heavily impacted by the way the war panned out, so, had Il-Sung been allowed to murder SK into annexation, again, who knows if that's the way the cookie would've crumbled. Didn't in China. Didn't in Nam. Is the problem with alternative historical scenarios.

I can make the assumption that there might've been less deaths, which is exactly what i did. Had i affirmed that there would've deffo have been less deaths, you'd have a point.

You might also read up on the causes for famines. While the regime certainly exacerbated the problem, it most certainly didn't create it.

Don't quite see why they'd go Full Panaroid either way. Can see them going Quite Paranoid, however, same way the Saudis have.

W has nothing to do with the 40+ intervening years where NK failed to actually develop its post-war economy.

"Less Death" in the short term resulting in SK having the same economic and political results as NK is going to result in "More Death" in the long run. It's a terrible trade.

 

[Shengar]

CIA conspiracies on how they installed Soeharto to power was already an urban myth since the late 90's when his power is at its twilight. Those documents just turned speculation and guesses into historical fact now, more or less.

Soeharto by the number probably isn't the worst dictator from bloody tally, but on other else like embezzlement, thuggery state apparatus, acute capitalist cronyism, he is probably among the worst (or the best at exercising his power from that perspective). But most of all, as an Indonesia who really aware of his role and action in history, his most damning thing for us is perpetual ghastly legacy. The thing with Soeharto dictactorship is that he ruled with subtle iron fist, and with his apparent legitimacy on squashing communist coup, it is harder for us to identify and rooted out the influence of his corrupted ruling. So many aspect of our still shaped by the custom and law that he dictate in the New Order regime like the normalization of violence on criminal, positive views on extrajudicial law enforcement, and of course, thuggery state apparatus that still there even when its master die.

To be honest, the situation is already snowballing out of control ever since Soekarno got delusioned and likened himself to likes of Stalin and Mao Zedong (horrible, I know). He banned parties that objected to his dictatorship and relies on the military to keep himself in power (different faction from Soeharto, in fact Soeharto was a no name at that time). PKI while a legal party and got themselves members by legal means, slide towards violence tendencies once their arch rivals were banned and parliamentary government dissolved. The conflict between military and PKI is just a matter of time at that point.

Though it was not that the US government didn't a have choice of who military officer they should backed up back then. General Nasution, the only survivor from the targeted general is already a major a political player before the coup happened. He was in grief at that time since while he as survived, his daughter got killed instead. US though, could still supported or pushed him to replace Soekarnor as the head of the government. Instead, the picked the worst possible man to do their bidding. The very same man who embezzled public fund and smuggled rice at exorbitant price to a province during a famine 7 years before the coup happened.

 

[CrazyDude]

hmmm, it is problematic to say these things because well, alternative history. With NK/SK we also gotta factor that a non-authoritarian government in SK is quite the recent development aaand that in the other case in the region where the US did eventually have to get the fuck out and let The Baddies do their thing, things *eventually* turned out kinda sorta ok (massively oversimplifying, obv), and then you factor the considerable reduction in the loss of life that such a move could very well cause and... eh.

Could very well be that, had the US not killed a whole fuckload of NK's, a decade after the fact yall would be more than happy to establish relations with Il-Sung, same as you (and most countries in the globe, tbqf) do with so many other horrible bastards.

Obv no garantees there and dude coulda just gone Full Paranoid either way.

Or you know, maybe North Korea shouldn't start wars?

 

[Kyzer]

by everything that has been uncovered during the last 30 years, it sounds more like the entire western world is/was the bully.
The one thing that's always ignore when people talk about the "spread of communism", was that it seems like communism/socialism spread quite naturally, often times, like in this case, through democratic means, whereas "the west" apparently always referred to shady as fuck methods to stop it/push back.
And then they have the audacity to call themselves the "free world". Free, only if you conform to the prescribed economic model.

Honestly I'd love some to read some comparable fuckery from the eastern blocks, but so far, I can't shake the feeling that "we" have been the bad guy all along.
(I'm talking about foreign affairs fuckery, not internal one btw)

If by naturally and democratically you mean dictators like Stalin completely desecrating the idea of socialism and murdering his opponents then yeah

And we are absolutely the bad guys in the eyes of those who we oppose, but it's peculiar that in our enemies countries the internet is censored, they have their own version of Wikipedia , the government controls the media, and political opinions are worthy of jail or death, while here you can literally be a sleeper cell Russian agent and put a 4 hour long video on YouTube about the government being evil and full of repitilians and capitalism is the enemy and America is the bad guy and.....you make profit from ad revenues on YouTube. Interesting to note when trying to figure out who's full of shit when it comes to "the truth"

 

[Gaius Cassius]

Considering their attitude specifically about the civilian casualties during the Vietnam conflict, how is this surprising? Better red than dead was their feeling about it which explains it all.

 

[Sage00]

Why do so many articles about this ignore that it was largely an ethnic cleansing of Chinese? (seen as complicit / loyal to communist ideals)

 

[Hickbilly Deluxe]

Well, it's evident the US government is willing to commit atrocities in the name of power and profits.

And we are still small time corner bullies compared to some in history.

 

[hurricanes]

I mean, the rest of the world knew this from the very beginning. It's the western world(or more specifically the U.S. Of A) that marched in full denial. Now wait for the president of the United States to try to spin this in the most disgraceful way.

 

[Machina]

Another ugly notch in Henry Kissinger's belt

 

[Saya]

saw the act of killing a few weeks ago, horrible

doesn't surprise me one bit the US had a hand in this

Also, check out its 'sequel, The Look of Silence, if you haven't already. Very interesting as well.

 

[norinrad]

Meddling in other democracies, removing leaders who have their people and country's best interest at heart. Injecting their own puppet regimes to keep countries from flourishing and achieving their own potential and creating their own history.

Yet when the Russians do it to the US, it's an all out war of sanctions etc.

The USA is guilty though the hide behind the UN flag and come in peace.

 

[Shake Appeal]

The USA is guilty though the hide behind the UN flag and come in peace.

When it suits. As soon as the UN or international law or the censure of the international community is inconvenient, we don't give a shit.

 

[sphagnum]

by everything that has been uncovered during the last 30 years, it sounds more like the entire western world is/was the bully.
The one thing that's always ignore when people talk about the "spread of communism", was that it seems like communism/socialism spread quite naturally, often times, like in this case, through democratic means, whereas "the west" apparently always referred to shady as fuck methods to stop it/push back.
And then they have the audacity to call themselves the "free world". Free, only if you conform to the prescribed economic model.

Honestly I'd love some to read some comparable fuckery from the eastern blocks, but so far, I can't shake the feeling that "we" have been the bad guy all along.
(I'm talking about foreign affairs fuckery, not internal one btw)

The USSR did plenty of heinous stuff, like the invasions of Hungary and Czechoslovakia. But it also provided funds and support for anti-imperialists across the globe.

The Cold War certainly wasn't a history of the heroic United States vs the Evil Empire USSR.

 

[Hierophant]

Lmao people keep dogpiling me whenever I shit on US soldiers until I mention my parents were vietnam war refugees and then nobody replies to me anymore I wonder why

I remember one dude here telling me to contact the authorities to tell them about the atrocities my family witnessed (??)

I have to make it clear again:

Fuck the United States and the numerous atrocities it has perpetrated worldwide, every American needs to know that the country they live in is evil and the benefits they take for granted are built off the backs of various nations they've plundered.

Because too many of you still think your country is a force for good in the world, it never ever was.

 

[KillLaCam]

Not even sightly shocked. But thats really bad

 

[Hierophant]

https://theintercept.com/2017/05/03...e-us-one-reason-they-remember-the-korean-war/

people often overlook the very justified anger the north korean people have towards the US

in what world is killing straight up 20% of their population excused?

oh wait apparently the current one

 

[Metroxed]

I am shocked /s

That the US has participated, aided or been the main actor behind many authoritarian regimes and their atrocities should be no surprise to anyone.

 

[AcademicSaucer]

"Leaders of the free world"

 

[Bastables]

Why do so many articles about this ignore that it was largely an ethnic cleansing of Chinese? (seen as complicit / loyal to communist ideals)

Because such a reading would have to ignore all the Javanese and Balanise murdered in the desa’s. It would also have to ignore the bankrolling of shuharto’s Diponegro command by Chinese traders https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liem_Sioe_Liong

It would also ignore than ethnic division as a political tool was practised by Suharto after his ascension, having military units murder villagers in non costal java would mean if killing Chinese was the objective the units were probably led by US CIA agents that thought all asians look the same.

 

[ClosingADoor]

by everything that has been uncovered during the last 30 years, it sounds more like the entire western world is/was the bully.
The one thing that's always ignore when people talk about the "spread of communism", was that it seems like communism/socialism spread quite naturally, often times, like in this case, through democratic means, whereas "the west" apparently always referred to shady as fuck methods to stop it/push back.
And then they have the audacity to call themselves the "free world". Free, only if you conform to the prescribed economic model.

Honestly I'd love some to read some comparable fuckery from the eastern blocks, but so far, I can't shake the feeling that "we" have been the bad guy all along.
(I'm talking about foreign affairs fuckery, not internal one btw)

I wouldn't classify oppressing half a continent for almost half a century as "spreading naturally" though.

 

[Irminsul]

The one thing that's always ignore when people talk about the "spread of communism", was that it seems like communism/socialism spread quite naturally, often times, like in this case, through democratic means, whereas "the west" apparently always referred to shady as fuck methods to stop it/push back.

I mean, you state you're not talking about internal affairs, but you can't just ignore that. Communism made people actively leave a country, resulting in nice things like border walls being built where people were shot if they dared to leave the communist paradise. Or tanks rolling on the streets. Or a secret police which the Nazis dreamt of having.

If communism was so great and spread "naturally", why did communist countries all restrict freedom of expression much more than capitalist countries? See, I'm not even saying capitalist countries didn't do that, but there's still a vast gulf between what the West did to their own population and, say, the Stasi.

 

[siddx]

US government has a long history of being awful soulless pieces of shit who destroy lives for the benefit of a few rich and powerful. And it doesn't matter of it's people for other countries or their own citizens. The US is amazing, it's government is not.

Also not exclusive to the US, I've been to very few nations where the government wasn't terrible and immoral either currently or in the near past. The US just decided to be the cobra commander of this multi nation league of fuckery.

 

[sandy1297]

Because such a reading would have to ignore all the Javanese and Balanise murdered in the desa’s. It would also have to ignore the bankrolling of shuharto’s Diponegro command by Chinese traders https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liem_Sioe_Liong

It would also ignore than ethnic division as a political tool was practised by Suharto after his ascension, having military units murder villagers in non costal java would mean if killing Chinese was the objective the units were probably led by US CIA agents that thought all asians look the same.

It was not the murders of chinese that is the big issue, its the culture cleansing that happened in the next 32 years. The total ban of everything chinese (name, language, tradition) in the country.

And the worse of all, the siege mentality between chinese and non-chinese that is still in effect until now.

 

[Xiao Hu]

The US is fucking scum. The damage they did to Latin America in the 60 to 90s is going to take generations to fix.

Read up on the bullshit they did with United Fruit Company to get a picture of how heinous they are. People like Fidel Castro and Hugo Chavez only came into power because of them.

Gotta protect that sweet sweet foreign direct investment of your companies. And if you can kill some leftist and brown skinned people while doing so then it's even better.

 

[Bastables]

It was not the murders of chinese that is the big issue, its the culture cleansing that happened in the next 32 years. The total ban of everything chinese (name, language, tradition) in the country.

And the worse of all, the siege mentality between chinese and non-chinese that is still in effect until now.

Yeah that's why I wrote that the racial division thing really got cracking after Suharto got into power, which is a replay of colonial fuckwittery and another reason inspire of his fight against the Dutch makes Suharto a evil bastard.