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Doujin (Indie) Games at Comic Market 82

I watched the whole video now.
And okay, only 2-3 games that look graphically good.

There were some other games, that really looked fun from the gameplay, but oh...
... somehow the people do not know how to make them look good from the graphical standpoint of view. They look like N64-Games... :(
 

ponpo

( ≖‿≖)
[Incomplete/will upload images]

Good post. Jank predictions on the F/Z game.

Is らき☆ふぁいVSイカ娘 finally coming out? That's from like last year IIRC. tsukasa_buletta.jpg
 

Boss Doggie

all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Damn, checked and no news for morenatsu.

Oh well, will just wait for some nice kemono stuff.
 
About to load up that massive trailer video but before I do I have a question for those who have given it a watch:

See any interesting fighting games? I've been on a doujin fighter kick lately and I'd really like to see some that are currently in development.

Not really anything new but if you have never seen Yatagarasu then it is worth checking out:

http://yatagarasuinfo.web.fc2.com/system.htm

The quality of the animation and art is pretty amazing for a doujin game. It looks like he will be at the event this year as well.
 

ponpo

( ≖‿≖)
Decided to install motionjoy on this computer, so finally tried out Koumajou Densetsu 2. Funner than the first IMO.
 

blind51de

Banned
I'd like to go but I have on good authority that westerners are frowned on there since otaku proper have a solemn anti-piracy stance on pirating (and of course scanning).
 

ponpo

( ≖‿≖)
I don't think anyone cares about all the gaizin that go. It's definitely not them uploaded everything to Share and Perfect Dark an hour after the doors open.

Anyway, most people I know who have gone haven't really had a great experience. Just too crowded and a hassle to get what you want.
 
I'd like to go but I have on good authority that westerners are frowned on there since otaku proper have a solemn anti-piracy stance on pirating (and of course scanning).

I had no problems last year and spent most of the time going around talking to the creators. Don't think you would run into any problems.
 

Sentenza

Member
The doujin scene has been better than the western indie scene for quite some time...
I don't know... Maybe.
Care to point some convincing case? Cause I just watched that 1-hour long video in the OP and I was quite disappointed; almost every single entry there strikes me as terribly low on production value.
On top of that, I wasn't exactly impressed with gameplay or original concepts, neither.

Where's stuff comparable to Legend of Grimrock or Starship Corporation, even just in concept?
 

Risette

A Good Citizen
I don't know... Maybe.
Care to point some convincing case? Cause I just watched that 1-hour long video in the OP and I was quite disappointed; almost every single entry there strikes me as terribly low on production value.
On top of that, I wasn't exactly impressed with gameplay or original concepts, neither.

Where's stuff comparable to Legend of Grimrock or Starship Corporation, even just in concept?
Production value has little to do with how good a game is -- so why did "low on production value" games in that video disappoint you? It would also help if you elaborated on what you mean by "gameplay" beyond the non-word itself. Do you not like the style of game common throughout the scene?

And how can you talk down these games for being "low production value" then link to that second game where NPCs have stock model photos and the game is made in Game Maker? lol

My convincing case is Crimzon Clover. Great game, would stand up in comparisons to coin-op shooters (and I think it actually got a Nessica release or something too.)
 

Dascu

Member
Production value has little to do with how good a game is -- so why did "low on production value" games in that video disappoint you? It would also help if you elaborated on what you mean by "gameplay" beyond the non-word itself. Do you not like the style of game common throughout the scene?

And how can you talk down these games for being "low production value" then link to that second game where NPCs have stock model photos and the game is made in Game Maker? lol

My convincing case is Crimzon Clover. Great game, would stand up in comparisons to coin-op shooters (and I think it actually got a Nessica release or something too.)

I find it hard for anyone to say that the games demonstrated in that hour-long video have good graphics. Most of them look really rough. I also find that most of them look like (2D) shooters with an anime style.

Maybe the video is just misleading and does not really represent the full scope of Japan's indie scene. But if it does, then it seems really lackluster compared to the wealth in variety (in genre, but also in production value) that you can find by, say, browsing XBLIG or upcoming Kickstarter projects.


Edit: Crimzon Clover looks sweet though.
 

Sentenza

Member
Production value has little to do with how good a game is -- so why did "low on production value" games in that video disappoint you?
No, actually production value has a significant impact on how good a game can be. You could claim that's not everything -and that's absolutely right- but it isn't irrelevant.

It would also help if you elaborated on what you mean by "gameplay" beyond the non-word itself. Do you not like the style of game common throughout the scene?
What I mean with the non-word gameplay is exactly what the term implies: that mix of mechanics that defines the direct gaming experience itself: controls, balance, advanced systems defining what's the focus, etc.
I know many on GAF love to sound edgy and dismiss the term as a "buzzword", but it's actually very helpful in defyining a certain set of elements in a game.

What I'm seeing in that video is a bunch of games beside looking tremendously ugly more often than not (even ignoring the awkward magical girls starring as protagonists in many of them) don't seem to offer any single appealing or unique characteristic. I could easily fire up MAME or a SNES emulator and find games that do the same things better.
They are your typical shovelware shmup, the extremely rough and simple RPG... I must admit I was somehow interested by that SRPG at 34:something, as I have a weak spot for the genre, but even that doesn't strike me as an awe-inspiring effort by super-talented people.

And how can you talk down these games for being "low production value" then link to that second game where NPCs have stock model photos and the game is made in Game Maker? lol
Im not really sure why do you think that's relevant. ho cares if it uses stock photos? Portraits are hardly the glaring point of the production.
It's a game with a clever concept, deep mechanics, a stylized, clean and highly appealing presentation... It's honestly leagues ahead of anything in that video.

My convincing case is Crimzon Clover.
This?

crimzon-clover-2.jpg


Yeah, well, I'm not convinced then. As other said your was a bold claim... And I don't think you are backing it with any convincing argument.
 

Risette

A Good Citizen
I find it hard for anyone to say that the games demonstrated in that hour-long video have good graphics. Most of them look really rough. I also find that most of them look like (2D) shooters with an anime style.

Maybe the video is just misleading and does not really represent the full scope of Japan's indie scene. But if it does, then it seems really lackluster compared to the wealth in variety (in genre, but also in production value) that you can find by, say, browsing XBLIG or upcoming Kickstarter projects.


Edit: Crimzon Clover looks sweet though.
I wouldn't say many (if any) of them look good visually, but that's not really much concern. Certainly I do like when a game has nice aesthetics but as long as it's visually comprehensible it's fine with me, provided the game itself is good.

I'll give you there's not much variety, but the doujin scene sticks to what they like to do, I suppose. I just don't put much importance into variety -- I'm fine with lack of variety as long as they do decent stuff within the small space of things they like to do. But, that's just my preference.

Also are you excluding Japan from XBLIG? They have a lot of games there too, and one of the games in the OP (and one of the games I think looks pretty interesting), Revolver360, even started as an XBLIG game.
 
I wouldn't say many (if any) of them look good visually, but that's not really much concern. Certainly I do like when a game has nice aesthetics but as long as it's visually comprehensible it's fine with me, provided the game itself is good.

But the problem is, that, when they try to use 3d-models and the likes, most of the time in the video, besides the Racing-game, Fate/Zero-Game and the mech-shmup...
... it looks bad. Like playing some mix between N64 and PSX-Game.

Even though the gameplay may look interesting, the graphics turn me off a lot of time. And somehow I think a friend of mine who studied computer science can do better than that. Just use e.g. more polygons in the models and some textures with higher resolution.

You may have these:


But most of the Games in 3d look like these:


______________________________________________


I am not a graphics-whore, but somehow I expect at least some "Standard". When I see what western Indiedevelopers can offer with titles like Trine or Hard Reset, it makes me kinda sad to see that most developers of doujin-games seem to know how to draw well, but their games look bad, graphically.

There was a Tohou-shmup in the video with 3d-cellshaded Touhou-characters. That looked really really good. I wish Touhou Sky Arena would look like that. Somehow it doesnt really make that much sense to put such great models in a shmup, where you wont see them up close most of the time.

Another little rant. When I saw what great pixelartists NeoGAF has to offer, its also kinda sad to see that even new Doujingames offer really bad characters
 

elyetis

Member
For those wondering about good doujin game, I don't know that many of them but would name : ragnarok battle offline, crescent pale mist ( also available on psn now ), acceleration of suguri ( same ), recettear ( steam ), fatal fake ( from my point of view better than the official fighting game released on ps2 ).

With the end of doujinsuki i kind of lost track of any new release for like 2 year. :/
 
I guess it is a little odd for me to not make any kind of post up in this joint. Time to fix that.

Anyway as far as the rather bitter "production values" debate goes: a thing to remember is that, just as with their big-brother commercial releases, a lot of doujin games are made on absolutely miniscule budgets. Like the budget for Fez, as an example, would make most of these guys blush.

Many of them aren't out to make The Next Big Thing, either - a lot of them just do this as a hobby and use Comiket as a way to share it with others while making a very small amount of money. A lot of these games would be lucky to sell a thousand copies... lifetime. The guys who make it "big" are rare and typically don't expect to do so. The games, therefore, can sometimes reflect this hobbyist attitude - they go with what they have, not what "looks best".


Anyway, the larger part of CF will be in Tokyo for this thing during the weekend and whatnot, to meet up with our existing dev partners and to scout for potential new titles. We'll be talking to EGS about Territoire to see where they are on that - it actually sounds like things are going well, but I'll admit I've been curious for a while too. We'll also definitely take a look at Motto Osu - hilariously, the first we learned of this title was when that site went up.
emot-v.gif
It looks fairly simple, but promising - Muracha and crew know how to design a videogame, at least, and it looks like they're stepping up their ~production values~. (The curious may want to take note of the aspect ratio of those screenshots.)

Beyond that, what I'm most eager to see in action is Astebreed - time to drop a bit of a GAF Bombshell here, but we were actually considering bringing over Edelweiss' previous titles at one point. The main thing that stopped us was the ongoing effort of our fourth project, and we delayed a bit in getting back to them, and they were then snatched up by Nyu Media. They did mention to us that they do want to take their work to the "next level", as it were, and Astebreed sure seems like it shows that off. If it has unique shmup mechanics like Ether Vapor did, there's a chance we could work on it. (Note I said a chance, please.
emot-v.gif
)

I'm also hoping we can run into the lads behind Arcanum Knights, as they sold the hell out before we could even get a test copy last year. I also just want to talk to those lads in general as they have the best circle name in history.

Anyway, should be a pretty good Comiket! I'm looking forward to it.


PROPER EDIT:
Even though the gameplay may look interesting, the graphics turn me off a lot of time. And somehow I think a friend of mine who studied computer science can do better than that. Just use e.g. more polygons in the models and some textures with higher resolution.

A word on this. In addition to the "hobbyist, therefore no budget at all" aspect I discussed above, a lot of these games are often targeted to as wide a hardware base as possible. Remember, PCs are not popular in Japan, and this software often gets played on a staggering variety of hardware. The general practice for a lot of doujin game devs, therefore, is to simply target the lowest possible hardware denominator and build the graphics around that - not only is it less expensive, but you can be more certain your game will run on as many machines as possible. So many developers see "throw more polygons at it" as not necessarily a good idea.
 
That sounds nice.

I must say Carpe Fulgur is bringing the Games to us, that look good AND play good. I finished Chantelise yesterday and really liked it.
Are there more Games like that?
Arcanum Knight looks nice.

What I was wondering the most is, isnt it possible to bring the "original" Touhou-Games over to Steam or would it be against the "Doujin"-Codex of ZUN?


Anyway as far as the rather bitter "production values" debate goes: a thing to remember is that, just as with their big-brother commercial releases, a lot of doujin games are made on absolutely miniscule budgets.

Sure. I know that, but still. When I look at some Games, my eyes really start to bleed by how bad it looks. I imagine just sitting there 1 hour in the evening, making some textures a higher-res.

The games, therefore, can sometimes reflect this hobbyist attitude - they go with what they have, not what "looks best".

Yeah, but come on. Some of these 3d-Games really look ugly. I remember seeing some kind of 3d-demo from the developer of aquaria he made in a few days and that looked better than the 3d-games we often get to see as doujin-games. Maybe the market is just too small :(
 

Hazaro

relies on auto-aim
Always a few good games, and a ton of interesting mechanics that come out from this.
Madoka EDF looks neat.
New Ether Vapor is nice.
Revolver 360 is a side scrolling shooter, but you can rotate the plane you are on.
Princess Card game looks interesting.
The sidescroller from LION HEART looks great. Love the audio and visual effects on impact. Looks like it plays really great also. 200 yen? I'd buy the shit out of that.

As SpaceDrake said, running minimum spec is a giant deal. So many games still only run on 800x600 or 1024x768 in a window.
 

Tain

Member
TucoBenedictoPacifico said:
What I'm seeing in that video is a bunch of games beside looking tremendously ugly more often than not (even ignoring the awkward magical girls starring as protagonists in many of them) don't seem to offer any single appealing or unique characteristic. I could easily fire up MAME or a SNES emulator and find games that do the same things better.
They are your typical shovelware shmup, the extremely rough and simple RPG... I must admit I was somehow interested by that SRPG at 34:something, as I have a weak spot for the genre, but even that doesn't strike me as an awe-inspiring effort by super-talented people.

The games in this video are largely pretty bad looking, of course, but did you miss, say, that isometric STG, Astebreed, or GHost92? Or even that sci-fi racing game?

None of them look like "an awe-inspiring effort by super-talented people" or whatever, but neither would any game from a similarly-sized sample of recent "indie" games. The difference here is that, unlike with the "indie" games, I'm seeing four or five interesting-looking ones instead of none.
 

sprsk

force push the doodoo rock
SpaceDrake,

will you guys fight 8-4 in a no-holds-barred battle royale?

Your audience demands answers.

We have a large army of ninjas on our side. (and there's no way in hell any of us are going to brave this heat to make it to comiket.)
 

djtiesto

is beloved, despite what anyone might say
Some of these games look pretty awesome, I hope one day I could get to play them in a convenient manner.
 

EVOL 100%

Member
Just saw the montage trailer. Man, that's a lot of Touhou.

Revolver360 looks really good. Ghost96 looks fun but the way the camera moves is really disorientating. I'd be willing to buy those two if there was a convienient way.
 
So many danmaku, and so much Touhou lol.
What piqued my interest :
Homura Combat Blaze : if only for the sheer WTFness quotient.
Astebreed looks nice graphically. Best danmaku of the trailer for me.
Ghost 92 reminds me of Cave Story and FEZ. Would pay and play it (and I hope a translation will be released some day)
Last Harvest makes me think of Gurumin. Otherwise looks bland.
Taruko looks like a smartphone gameplay wise, maybe they should try to release it that way. The UI and graphics are neat though.
Supression for Celestia, Lullaby for Gaia looks cool too, maybe some kind of Metroidvania with and advanced battle system (what's with the name anyway ?).

While we're talking about doujins...where's my Rance Quest translation ? T_T
 

RedSwirl

Junior Member
I haven't watched the whole video, but almost every doujin game I've seen so far has been either a shmup or a visual novel. Where's the weird shit like Recetter and Mekuri Master?

As for graphical quality, part of it might be that gaming quality PCs maybe aren't as common among Japanese gamers as they might be in the rest of the world. I wouldn't be surprised if most doujin developers didn't even have computers that could run Trine or Hard Reset. Not to mention the fact that most Japanese gamers and developers probably aren't even aware of PC games like those.
 

LFF

Neo Member
Whoa...what was the isometric view Bullet hell called in the cubetype video? That looked interesting.

This one?
Not entirely sure on the name but the website title seems to be Suwapyon 2. The demo is here .
The isometric perspective isn't standard - you can tilt or rotate the camera to help figure out the depth of the bullets on the screen when necessary.

It's pretty fun from what i've played of the demo. The second level in particular did some fun stuff with the 3d gimmick. I kinda wish i could buy the full version.
 

LFF

Neo Member
I don't really mind about the low-budget graphics in doujin games if they make up for it in the gameplay department. Crimzon clover isn't the best looking shmup, but the gameplay is super tight and the music is top notch.

Is that from anything?

Looks to be from a manga called Wa!
 

ponpo

( ≖‿≖)
oh wow... I will definitively try to check this out. I'm in Tokyo from Friday :)

Haha, you might want to look at most of the material they show at Comiket before going. You'll be in for a lewd surprise!
 

Mandoric

Banned
This one?

Not entirely sure on the name but the website title seems to be Suwapyon 2. The demo is here .
The isometric perspective isn't standard - you can tilt or rotate the camera to help figure out the depth of the bullets on the screen when necessary.

It's pretty fun from what i've played of the demo. The second level in particular did some fun stuff with the 3d gimmick. I kinda wish i could buy the full version.

Dear god, it's Touhou Zaxxon. Sold.

Haha, you might want to look at most of the material they show at Comiket before going. You'll be in for a lewd surprise!

If you go on the porn day, and go to the porn section! Otherwise you're just going to be awash in a mountain of fanfic comics for the latest Jump hits, poetry anthologies, 784329798423 garage bands that exclusively cover Touhou BGM, dubiously-legal-for-export ham radio parts, and the traffic clusterfuck that's gonna result because at least one pizza chain has decided that this year, they'll deliver direct to the convention hall.

Grab a catalog before you go, not only does it count as your admission ticket but the sample art will give you a feel for which parts of the hall you want to be in even if you can't read it and don't have any favorite authors you want to hit up before they sell out.
 

TGMIII

Member
I know but it is free and it could be a cool way to spot some cool cosplay

Yeah there will be some interesting cosplay all right.

Only interesting thing to me was revolver 360 but I'm more interested in the music from comiket. Any there any resources out there for music that's being released at C82?
 

Mandoric

Banned
Oh, and be forewarned: They do cosplay better there than they do here. Cosplayers have their own ghettoluxuriously-equipped dedicated changing room area and photography section, and are strictly restricted to it because the exhibition halls are a mass of flesh reminiscent of a Castlevania boss with absolutely no room for photography, props, or massive skirts. If you want photo ops with them, seek out their area, you'll be disappointed wandering the main area.
 
Beyond that, what I'm most eager to see in action is Astebreed - time to drop a bit of a GAF Bombshell here, but we were actually considering bringing over Edelweiss' previous titles at one point. The main thing that stopped us was the ongoing effort of our fourth project, and we delayed a bit in getting back to them, and they were then snatched up by Nyu Media. They did mention to us that they do want to take their work to the "next level", as it were, and Astebreed sure seems like it shows that off. If it has unique shmup mechanics like Ether Vapor did, there's a chance we could work on it. (Note I said a chance, please.
emot-v.gif
)

I'm also hoping we can run into the lads behind Arcanum Knights, as they sold the hell out before we could even get a test copy last year. I also just want to talk to those lads in general as they have the best circle name in history.

Anyway, should be a pretty good Comiket! I'm looking forward to it.

Haha I am pretty sure that every person out there relating to doujin translations/localization approached the Edelweiss guys about their titles. ;)
Definitely have some of the most promising looking IPs at the event.

Are the guys behind Arcanum Knights going to be there? I couldn't find that title last year and really wanted to check it out. The demo they have up for download is pretty damn awesome.

Regarding the complaints about the quality of the games, I think it is obvious that the level is lower. However as people have pointed out they are working in a completely different market. There is not a healthy PC market here to support their works so most of their money is actually made through these kinds of events.

It would be great if more developers could get exposure and released on Steam. Hopefully greenlight will fix up the current shitty submission situation with Steam.
 

Sentenza

Member
The games in this video are largely pretty bad looking, of course, but did you miss, say, that isometric STG, Astebreed, or GHost92? Or even that sci-fi racing game?
No, I didn't.

The difference here is that, unlike with the "indie" games, I'm seeing four or five interesting-looking ones instead of none.
I'm not exactly sure of what you are trying to say, here.
What I'm getting is that you think there are interesting-looking games here, while you can't think of one in the western indie scene.
If that's actually the case, then I can't really agree to any extent.
 

Tain

Member
I'm saying that if you were to make a video like this of Western indie scene games released specifically in the past half year (Comiket is a twice-yearly thing), I don't think I would find anything that interested me.
 

Sentenza

Member
I'm saying that if you were to make a video like this of Western indie scene games released specifically in the past half year (Comiket is a twice-yearly thing), I don't think I would find anything that interested me.
Then we have simply to "agree to disagree", because games like those two I already linked or this one for me simply destroy anything in this thread so far, in terms of potential appeal and ambition.
 

Antiwhippy

the holder of the trombone
Does this really add anything to the thread?

I think that people who like well-made arcade or older console style games will lean towards the doujin side.

Alot of western indie scene leans onto the nostalgia old console angle it's almost funny, and there are quite a few also playing around with classic arcade concepts.
 

Instro

Member
I am not a graphics-whore, but somehow I expect at least some "Standard". When I see what western Indiedevelopers can offer with titles like Trine or Hard Reset, it makes me kinda sad to see that most developers of doujin-games seem to know how to draw well, but their games look bad, graphically.

Well both of those games are from legitimate development studios who are staffed with industry veterans. I'm not even sure how you could call them "indie", at least in the context of this thread.
 

Risette

A Good Citizen
Alot of western indie scene leans onto the nostalgia old console angle it's almost funny, and there are quite a few also playing around with classic arcade concepts.
Yeah but pretty much none of those games actually play like the games they try to be/pay tribute to. :/
 
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