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[D.Lo]

Wow, now we measure development budgets on file size, this is a really new good one.

FFS, it's an example of what is different about a big 'HD' game. How many 30GB 3DS or mobile games are there?

HD development price should be a no issue since the profit margin of console games are much higher than handheld ones. $40 vs $60.

General industry budgets that we know of heavily suggest the opposite. DQXI doesn't look like a particularly expensive PS4 game, but looks well above PS360 games in asset and animation quality.

The point being, what percentage of the development cost went to the PS4 version? Maybe 80%? And what percentage of the profits will the PS4 version generate?

 

[gundamkyoukai]

Eh, truth to be told, even if the game was somewhat costy, I'd say it already broke even on PS4, by a wide margin.

That is most likely the case .
There is nothing in DQIX that would really make this a fully AAA game .
At least compare to SE other big games like KH , FFXV , FFVIIR .

FFS, it's an example of what is different about a big 'HD' game. How many 30GB 3DS or mobile games are there?

General industry budgets that we know of heavily suggest the opposite. DQXI doesn't look like a particularly expensive PS4 game, but looks well above PS360 games in asset and animation quality.

There are many PS3 games that have better animation than DQIX and they had way less ram to work with .
Assets look nice but nothing special for PS4 .

 

[GhostTrick]

FFS, it's an example of what is different about a big 'HD' game. How many 30GB 3DS or mobile games are there?

General industry budgets that we know of heavily suggest the opposite. DQXI doesn't look like a particularly expensive PS4 game, but looks well above PS360 games in asset and animation quality.

Eh, animation looks average. As for the assets, they look good thanks to shader work and IQ.

 

[Fdkn]

FFS, it's an example of what is different about a big 'HD' game. How many 30GB 3DS or mobile games are there?

I guess Takahashi was lying -a lot- when he said Xenoblade X was not expensive to make, because that file size sure was bloated for a WiiU game, they even had to make extra texture patches.

Or maybe that's not really how any of that works.

 

[ksamedi]

Last week's Media Create had 3DS higher

01./01. [3DS] Dragon Quest XI: Echoes of an Elusive Age # <RPG> (Square Enix) {2017.07.29} (¥5.980) - 307.714 / 1.456.601 (-73%)
02./02. [PS4] Dragon Quest XI: Echoes of an Elusive Age # <RPG> (Square Enix) {2017.07.29} (¥8.980) - 200.798 / 1.151.113 (-79%)


We'll see where they stand tomorrow. They clearly expected the 3DS to greatly exceed the PS4, but I have a feeling PS4 is performing beyond expectations too.

So in terms of revenue the ps4 edition actually made more money until now.

 

[Kysen]

If they had put voiced work in the game I would have been day one JP digital import like every other major RPG. I'm surprised that for 3DS' massive install base it didn't sell significantly more.

 

[Anoxida]

FFS, it's an example of what is different about a big 'HD' game. How many 30GB 3DS or mobile games are there?

General industry budgets that we know of heavily suggest the opposite. DQXI doesn't look like a particularly expensive PS4 game, but looks well above PS360 games in asset and animation quality.

The point being, what percentage of the development cost went to the PS4 version? Maybe 80%? And what percentage of the profits will the PS4 version generate?

You're just throwing out random numbers at this point. If ps4 ver becomes a sleeper hit in west it probably can be just as profitable as the 3ds version is.

 

[NSESN]

The PS4 and 3DS versions weren't made in a vacuum. Either both broke even or neither did.

You're just throwing out random numbers at this point. If ps4 ver becomes a sleeper hit in west it probably can be just as profitable as the 3ds version is.

You just threw an argument at random here tho.


People are getting way worked up about what version is making more money when it makes no differenve for SE.

 

[D.Lo]

I guess Takahashi was lying -a lot- when he said Xenoblade X was not expensive to make, because that file size sure was bloated for a WiiU game, they even had to make extra texture patches.

Or maybe that's not really how any of that works.

Nice non-answer to my question.

 

[Fdkn]

Nice non-answer to my question.

Do you expect me to answer you why there are not 30gb 3ds games? really?

 

[Yoshi]

Such a strange release. It gets called multiplatform, but on a tech level it's just two completely separate games with the same story and marketing.

Weird to consider them 'the same game'. And if you were a big fan you would really have to buy both surely.


That too, would have done a lot better a year earlier.

Are they the same game gameplay-wise, just with different visuals, or are they separate games gameplay-wise as well? So is it a Sonic Unleashed kind of deal, where there are really two completely different games sharing the same story and name / boxart / marketing, or more of a "different make up" case?

 

[D.Lo]

Are they the same game gameplay-wise, just with different visuals, or are they separate games gameplay-wise as well? So is it a Sonic Unleashed kind of deal, where there are really two completely different games sharing the same story and name / boxart / marketing, or more of a "different make up" case?

I don't own them so can't say definitively, but they have the same story and basic turn based combat gameplay. But unlike say a PS4/Xbone/PC multiplatform they would share zero graphics assets and likely almost no game code either.

I'd say it's almost like releasing a game and a full remake at the same time.

 

[Fiendcode]

Are they the same game gameplay-wise, just with different visuals, or are they separate games gameplay-wise as well? So is it a Sonic Unleashed kind of deal, where there are really two completely different games sharing the same story and name / boxart / marketing, or more of a "different make up" case?

They play differently with unique mechanics and world design for each version. They share the same characters and story but that's mainly it, they're two different games.

 

[ArkhamFantasy]

I hope it does hit its target, and that the target isn't a really big one. It seems to be doing well so far and still has yet to come to other territories so there should hopefully be a lot more sales (and time) to get to it.

Square Enix was unhappy with how well Tomb Raider (2013) did and that sold at least 3.4 million copies...

Wada was removed as CEO a month after he said that. I dont know why people keep bringing that up 4 years later when they're perfectly happy with smaller and mid tier games like Life Is Strange, Bravely Default, and Nier.

 

[gtj1092]

it's called shorthand pal. It means 'big budget current gen home console game'.

The game is 30GB and doesn't even have any recorded voices (or soundtrack?), and only has one language on the disc. It costs a lot to make 30GB of graphical assets.

But it never seems to get applied to Nintendo games. It's like a Wii era talking point to downplay sales of the ps4 version despite it also costing more. The game is the same length and size on 3ds plus has a 2d mode. Maybe come up woth more specific term. Or say "big budget game." Although I doubt the budget came even came close to FF15 and they made their money back on that just fine.

 

[D.Lo]

But it never seems to get applied to Nintendo games. It's like a Wii era talking point to downplay sales of the ps4 version despite it also costing more. The game is the same length and size on 3ds plus has a 2d mode. Maybe come up woth more specific term. Or say "big budget game." Although I doubt the budget came even came close to FF15 and they made their money back on that just fine.

It does get applied to Nintendo games? It was a huge deal how Nintendo struggled to transition to HD development, it was one of the things that sank the Wii U early on because their output was so slow.

Anyway the exact term I used originally was 'expensive HD game' to differentiate it from the the development cost of DQ IX and the cost of a hypothetical 'released-earlier 3DS-only DQXI' which was discussed easier in the thread.

 

[Magicpaint]

If they had put voiced work in the game I would have been day one JP digital import like every other major RPG. I'm surprised that for 3DS' massive install base it didn't sell significantly more.

Massive install base doesn't mean active install base. And DQ series sales have a maximum cap of about 4m, meaning the vast majority of 3DS owners won't be buying the game even if it was exclusive, so only a fraction of the userbase ends up mattering for DQ.

Are they the same game gameplay-wise, just with different visuals, or are they separate games gameplay-wise as well? So is it a Sonic Unleashed kind of deal, where there are really two completely different games sharing the same story and name / boxart / marketing, or more of a "different make up" case?

I'm sure there are better people in the position to answer this but I think it's probably more like Unleashed or somewhere in the middle. To my knowledge story and item content are pretty much the same, but the gameplay is different in that battle system is different, dungeon layouts aren't exactly the same and that the way the overworld works is also different. This is even more so when you consider the 2D version. They basically made three different takes on the DQXI story and world. Quite amazing.

 

[Orgen]

Wada was removed as CEO a month after he said that. I dont know why people keep bringing that up 4 years later when they're perfectly happy with smaller and mid tier games like Life Is Strange, Bravely Default, and Nier.

Don't forget about the latest Hitman and the IO Interactive sale ;D

 

[The_Endgamer]

Should've been out when VIII came. Having VII, VIII and now the new one coming to 3DS is massive overkill.

Spread the releases a bit Square! Waiting for Switch and DQ Builders 2 on Switch though... I would buy it to support it but I don't have the time to play XI twice through.

 

[ethomaz]

4 million should be the upper end here. Low end seems to be 3 million.

It is already over 3m and they didn't reach the lower end.

 

[LordRaptor]

I think people kinda have a distorted idea of the current state of Playstation in Japan. I'd say it's doing fine. It's far from being the juggernaut PS2 was but it's the console to go to for modern AAA (non Nintendo) games.

People who follow MC threads have exactly the correct idea about how the PS4 is doing in Japan and also of how much "modern AAA (non Nintendo) games" matter to the Japanese market.

 

[ethomaz]

So the PS4 version outsold the 3DS version ?

No but...

PS4 overperformed.
3DS underperformed.

That based in what SE expected from each platform.

 

[Refreshment.01]

So according to some very informed people in Media Create threads and other known facts. Square Enix:

• Failed to come up with DQ11 in a timely manner for the 3DS when it was at it's peak years.
• Started development for the game first for the PS4 platform.
• Then decided to go for a 3DS version which was released in it's twilight years and even after it's successor is already on the market syphoning attention and mind share.
  [*]Announces a DQ11 version for the 3DS successor, the Switch, even before the game was released.
• Ends up developing what are basically 2 separate games. So in retrospective, they could have made the 3DS version early and then release the PS4/Switch versions.
• Center the marketing campaign around the PS4 version mainly.

And then Square Enix issue statements where they feel the 3DS version is the one failing to meet expectations. What's the surprise here?

The fact that these are basically 2 games exposes more that maybe the best course of action should have been a timely 3DS release with a future HD project in mind for other platforms.

The last point is not true, and while I am sure some people hold that view, it does not reflect reality. SE had a marketing campaign where they treated both versions equally, however Sony using their own marketing budget also made their own commercials and ran them very often.

Ok, but why you are not commenting on the other points? When you chose to focus only on 1 single point (that maybe is not full bullet proof) you give the impression the entire post is non sense because of 1 isolated thing.

But, yes, i think your observation is fair. Maybe it is Sony marketing the gave extra exposure to the PS4 version. Still the net result is the same, marketing effort end up been concentrated in one version.

Still, even leaving marketing aside, the majority of issues are there in how they handled one of it's more important projects. The "oh surprise... it's not perfoming up to our standards."

 

[gtj1092]

People who follow MC threads have exactly the correct idea about how the PS4 is doing in Japan and also of how much "modern AAA (non Nintendo) games" matter to the Japanese market.

Seems the majority of MC followers idea of the market is Nintendo=good, non-nintendo=bad and they form their talking points from there.

 

[Yoshi]

They play differently with unique mechanics and world design for each version. They share the same characters and story but that's mainly it, they're two different games.

Well, in this case, I think it was not a good choice for such an enormous franchise, to not give them at least different subtitles to really encourage double dips. As it stands, 3DS owners might think they just get the lesser version of the game if they buy the 3DS version, whereas in reality, they get a different game that shares name and story.

Also, I think this is quite important when considering overall sales of the game, because not only the engineering and art part was needed to be worked on twice, but in addition, the same holds for game design and world design.

 

[KtSlime]

So according to some very informed people in Media Create threads and other facts. Square Enix:

• Failed to come up with DQ11 in a timely manner for the 3DS when it was at it's peak.
• Started development for the game first for the PS4 version.
• Then decided to go for a 3DS version which was released in it's Twilight yers and ven after it's successor was released.
• Announced a DQ11 version for the 3DS successor, the Switch, even before the game was released.
• Ends up developing what are basically 2 separate games. So they could have made the 3DS version early and then release the PS4/Switch versions.
• Center the marketing campaign around the PS4 version.

And then Square Enix issue statements where they feel the 3DS version is the one failing to meet expectations. What's the surprise here?

The last point is not true, and while I am sure some people hold that view, it does not reflect reality. SE had a marketing campaign where they treated both versions equally, however Sony using their own marketing budget also made their own commercials and ran them very often.

 

[LordRaptor]

Seems the majority of MC followers idea of the market is Nintendo=good, non-nintendo=bad and they form their talking points from there.

Seems like you see what you want to see then if thats your takeaway.

 

[Magicpaint]

It is already over 3m and they didn't reach the lower end.

This was on August 4 though. The 3m shipped was announced on August 6th? Otherwise that seems a bit ridiculous an expectation. The game had a massive opening in line with the previous two single player games. Why would they expect much more?

I guess they hoped for the 3DS version to sell as if it were an exclusive entry and then have the PS4 version pull 1m+ in addition to that. Maybe they are expecting this to be the best selling DQ game then.

 

[Fiendcode]

The fact that these are basically 2 games exposes more that maybe the best course of action should have been a timely 3DS release with a future HD project in mind for other platforms.

Basically like Ni No Kuni DS and PS3?

 

[ethomaz]

Seems like you see what you want to see then if thats your takeaway.

Or you two follow different MC threads

There are some bad expectation to anything non-Nintendo in MC threads.

 

[LordRaptor]

Or you two follow different MC threads

There are some bad expectation to anything non-Nintendo in MC threads.

The PS4 decided to focus on Western markets to great success, and ignored things that the Japanese market cares about.
It is not hugely surprising that as a result it is not hugely successful in Japan.

e: To be clear - I'm not saying that Sonys decision to make the PS4 more of an X360-2 than the X1 is is a bad decision - its success shows that is clearly isn't.
But by doing so they made Japanese tastes a low priority, and they see the resultant sales there accordingly.

 

[ethomaz]

The PS4 decided to focus on Western markets to great success, and ignored things that the Japanese market cares about.
It is not hugely surprising that as a result it is not hugely successful in Japan.

PS4 never ignored Japan lol

The fact it found success in Japan is proof of that... there are a lot of software focused in Japan.

That is why most MC thread guys are eating crow with PS4 and its games performace.

 

[CaviarMeths]

3DS is up YoY and nobody in Japan can even buy a Switch, so the release climate for the 3DS version is probably not too terrible. Not sure it would have done any better released a year earlier. But yeah, with 2 SKUs and a 3rd in the pipeline for the 3DS's successor, not sure why SE expected sales much higher than 1.5m in 2 weeks for that version.

 

[Vanille]

People who follow MC threads have exactly the correct idea about how the PS4 is doing in Japan and also of how much "modern AAA (non Nintendo) games" matter to the Japanese market.

lmao

What MC threads do you follow. Certainly not the ones on gaf.

 

[KtSlime]

PS4 never ignored Japan lol

The fact it found success in Japan is proof of that... there are a lot of software focused in Japan.

That is why most MC thread guys are eating crow with PS4 and its games performace.

Games performance? DQ certainly is doing better than many including myself thought it would on PS4, it might crawl to 1.5 million which will be quite the amazing feat.

But let's not pretend that the PS4 is some great selling system that is able to sell a ton of games in Japan. A game on PS4 is selling great if it can get over 200k on the platform, and only 3 games have crossed the 400k barrier. There have many better performing platforms compared to the PS4, not only in system sales, but software as well. The only way you can even say the PS4 has good performance is if compare it only to Xbox One or the PS3 which also didn't have great performance.

 

[345triangle]

the most interesting thing to me here is that PS4 digital in japan is evidently bigger than i'd expected, if you compare to the initial media create figures. a lot of the marketing here was for the PS4 version, as you'd imagine, but it's still kind of wild that the most popular series in japan would sell better on a system with a drastically lower install base.

the surprise is simply that DQ's appeal is so broadly mainstream that you'd expect the majority of sales to come from people picking it up for the heck of it on a console they already own.

 

[Fiendcode]

Success must be relative. PS4 is selling more like a Sega system in Japan.

 

[killatopak]

Games performance? DQ certainly is doing better than many including myself thought it would on PS4, it might crawl to 1.5 million which will be quite the amazing feat.

But let's not pretend that the PS4 is some great selling system that is able to sell a ton of games in Japan. A game on PS4 is selling great if it can get over 200k on the platform, and only 3 games have crossed the 400k barrier. There have many better performing platforms compared to the PS4, not only in system sales, but software as well. The only way you can even say the PS4 has good performance is if compare it only to Xbox One or the PS3 which also didn't have great performance.

It's doing great. In isolation it might seem not that much but with mobile dominating Japan what else can you do? The fact that PS4 is performing at the same pace as the PS3 is already a miracle. The many better performing platforms were released a decade ago aside from handhelds which is under in the umbrella of mobile.

We all know Japan is always late to the party in regards to jumping platforms. Look at the first two years of Japanese PS4 software and you'll see that they're still releasing on the PS3.

 

[ethomaz]

Games performance? DQ certainly is doing better than many including myself thought it would on PS4, it might crawl to 1.5 million which will be quite the amazing feat.

But let's not pretend that the PS4 is some great selling system that is able to sell a ton of games in Japan. A game on PS4 is selling great if it can get over 200k on the platform, and only 3 games have crossed the 400k barrier. There have many better performing platforms compared to the PS4, not only in system sales, but software as well. The only way you can even say the PS4 has good performance is if compare it only to Xbox One or the PS3 which also didn't have great performance.

What I get here is that you will continue to eating crow

That is the exactly the bad mindset for non-Nintendo platform on MC threads we are talking about.

PS4 is doing great in Japan.

 

[KtSlime]

It's doing great. In isolation it might seem not that much but with mobile dominating Japan what else can you do? The fact that PS4 is performing at the same pace as the PS3 is already a miracle. The many better performing platforms were released a decade ago aside from handhelds which is under in the umbrella of mobile.

We all know Japan is always late to the party in regards to jumping platforms. Look at the first two years of Japanese PS4 software and you'll see that they're still releasing on the PS3.

Japan considers handhelds as console, not mobile. The only people who consider handhelds to be mobile are people who want to not compare PS4 to Nintendo.

What I get here is that you will continue to eat crow

That is the exactly bad mindset for non-Nintendo platform on MC threads.

PS4 is doing great in Japan.

What titles do I have to eat crow for? Bad mindset means what? People should pretend Nintendo doesn't exist so that PS4 can be a beast in Japan or something?

 

[DriftingSpirit]

I don't get the slight negative tone to some responses. It says it is on track to "a least" hit SE's lower expectation. So, assuming things continue as they are now, it will more than likely reach that expectation. It could go higher but at worst it will hit the lower end. That sounds fine.

 

[Fiendcode]

What I get here is that you will continue to eating crow

That is the exactly the bad mindset for non-Nintendo platform on MC threads we are talking about.

PS4 is doing great in Japan.

It's less about Nintendo vs non-Nintendo platforms and more about systems that are actually doing well versus not. No one was championing Wii U after it was clear how the system would do, it was in the exact same boat as Vita and PS4 if not worse off.

 

[D.Lo]

aside from handhelds which is under in the umbrella of mobile.

What the hell?

 

[Wereroku]

What titles do I have to eat crow for? Bad mindset means what? People should pretend Nintendo doesn't exist so that PS4 can be a beast in Japan or something?

We will have to see Horii stated multiple times he wanted DQXI to be an hd console game so everyone saying they should have skipped the ps4 release is kind of ignoring the whole reason it exists. Also SE is gambling a bit on the overseas success selling some ps4 copies but who knows I hope it sells well over here.

Edit:

I'm wrong about the numbers so I will remove them so people leave me be.

 

[ethomaz]

It's less about Nintendo vs non-Nintendo platforms and more about systems that are actually doing well versus not. No one was championing Wii U after it was clear how the system would do, it was in the exact same boat as Vita and PS4 if not worse off.

I agree and PS4 is doing pretty well but most post in MC threads looks at the Nintendo vs non-Nintendo side.

Japan considers handhelds as console, not mobile. The only people who consider handhelds to be mobile are people who want to not compare PS4 to Nintendo.

Wut?

Handhelds are handhelds, consoles are consoles. The only ones that threat handhelds like consoles are the ones that wants to make consoles look bad.

 

[zelas]

What the hell?

They're talking about Japan's exodus from home consoles to portable devices. From PS2 to DS to mobile. PS4 and other dedicated home consoles have to compete in a market where they largely aren't wanted or preferable anymore.

 

[Kanann]

Doom and groom over guarantee 3-5 millions sale? Wut?

 

[LordRaptor]

I agree and PS4 is doing pretty well but most post in MC threads looks at the Nintendo vs non-Nintendo side.

What, as opposed to... versus Xbox? Versus Wonderswan? Versus Sega?
There are only two viable console manufacturers in Japan, why wouldn't their comparative sales be discussed?

Wut?

Handhelds are handhelds, consoles are consoles. The only ones that threat handhelds like consoles are the ones that wants to make consoles look bad.

Why don't Media Create or Famitsu consider them separate markets when ranking software and hardware sales then?

 

[Wereroku]

Doom and groom over guarantee 3-5 millions sale? Wut?

The statement really doesn't sound that negative. The only take away is that the 3DS is underperforming against their expectations right now but they think it will improve over time.

Why don't Media Create or Famitsu consider them separate markets when ranking software and hardware sales then?

I mean that is just a reporting choice. NPD does separate them. The fact that they are tracking the Switch as a console instead of a handheld was talked about in one of the NPD threads.

 

[Atheerios]

I agree and PS4 is doing pretty well but most post in MC threads looks at the Nintendo vs non-Nintendo side.


Wut?

Handhelds are handhelds, consoles are consoles. The only ones that threat handhelds like consoles are the ones that wants to make consoles look bad.

Handheld consoles
Home consoles

Is it really that hard to understand?