Actually, I just realized Fighter is pretty dreamy without his helmet.
Not realistic at all. No man in armor is that pretty in real life. And no guy in a helmet has hair that luscious. I'm offended.
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Dragon's Crown (Vanillaware PS3/PSV) Sorceress Trailer
- Thread starter Takao
- Start date
Not realistic at all. No man in armor is that pretty in real life. And no guy in a helmet has hair that luscious. I'm offended.
I think alt skins for Vanillaware games would, generally, take too much effort to be profitable
But who knows, maybe under that armor he's a beefcake like:
djplaeskool
Member
Dem flowing locks
SolidSnakex
Member
Muchi Muchi Pink
Member
Fighter is shockingly handsome. Like Ryu Hayabusa without his mask.
I apologize that I don't have time to address every post in this thread, but I'll try to answer this. I think it's important for Kamitani and any other artists who draw similarly juvenile characters to consider the effect of their designs on men, on women, and on gaming culture as a whole. If even one woman feels ostracized or uncomfortable because of art like this - and, judging by the e-mails and messages I've gotten in the past day, quite a few women do feel that way - it's worth talking and thinking about.
I don't want him to censor himself. I want him to ask himself why he's drawing men and women with ridiculous proportions that seem designed to appeal to teenage boys, and I want him to think about how that can be harmful. That's the point of criticism: to get people thinking, and talking, and learning.
Like I've been saying all along, Dragon's Crown is hardly the only offender, and it's certainly not the most blatant example of sexist content in games. But it is one example, and for various reasons, it's the one we're discussing. Hopefully good things can come out of this.
Karsticles
Member
The Amazon looks more interested in the Sorceress, though.Actually, I just realized Fighter is pretty dreamy without his helmet.
AlimNassor
Banned
Transformers are super-popular movies with both genders, featuring hot chicks. Are they appealing to teenage fantasies? No. It's entertainment. Clubs are full of hot chicks and guys with little clothing listening to dub-step. Are they appealing to horny, sexist basement nerds? No. It's entertainment.
The song 212 (slight OT) signs about her cunt getting eaten etc, but does anyone think it's sexist? No, young adults find it fun and entertaining, just like they find other sexual things entertaining. There is nothing wrong with sexuality. The fact that girls don't play games has nothing to do with this kind of art, or representation; It's about the characters and overall nature of the hobby (i.e. every single main character is a guy and girls don't like violence to a similar extent). Do you care, when there's a guy without his shirt? No you don't. So why do you care, when there's a girl in bikini, when it's exactly the same thing.
Edit: Honestly, the art has ZIP to do with diversifying the hobby. NONE. Old retired people who don't understand a single thing about dubstep don't whine "waahwaah why why can u change the music in the club plz?!?". They listen to classical rock or country instead. It's audience catering, and violent (e.g.) games cater to young male adults, and there's nothing wrong with it. You want to know the reason for gaming being predominantly male? The fact that almost none (except for dancing and Wii games, which were EXCEPTIONALLY POPULAR) cater to any other target group. Don't hate on a game that caters to me (and no I am not the teenage basement nerd -image that you so try to promote). The fact that no game caters to you is not my fault.
Also, the comments that you got for your article (regarding the positive ones)? Every single thing on planet earth has haters. That's why we have terms minority, majority. There's bound to be guys who feel weird beside (and playing) shirtless men too, but they are the minority. And same for women. People are different. Deal with it.
Gutsy Frog
Banned
Answer my question of "why vilify giving men sexy female designs when you could complain about the lack of FEMALE pandering with attractive male characters".
Humans like sexy things.
Muchi Muchi Pink
Member
Or in the dwarf or Elf. Sorceress is looking in a different direction also.
Gutsy Frog
Banned
Man, you did not just compare Kamitani to Baki. I will fight you!
HIP DRAHVE.
SolidSnakex
Member
Isn't that an unbelievably slippery slope? You're going to find someone that's offended about something in almost anything that you do. Especially when you're dealing with designs that resemble humans.
I think you'll find all the answers to your question right here
http://art-eater.com/2013/03/from-m...ragons-crown-trailer-is-full-of-epic-homages/
Gutsy Frog
Banned
Both are pretty good artists.
"If you don't like X, don't play the game" is by far the lamest counter-argument when someone levels criticism at a game. You could use the same counter argument for people complaining about games glorifying genocide. I'm in no way comparing this game to games about genocide. I just want to illustrate how worthless of a counter-argument "if you don't like it, don't play it" is. Either actually address the criticism someone is making of a game, or ignore it. "Don't play it then" is complete bullshit.
Having a negative critic of one aspect in a game isn't a condemnation of the game as a whole. I didn't like how the covenant system worked in Dark Souls, and complained about it. It was still one of the best games I've played. I complained because I thought the game would be better if they changed how the system worked. Am I not supposed to play the game at all because I didn't like one thing? Fucking ridiculous.
This is such a good link. I was reading it yesterday and musing on how much went over my head.
Gutsy Frog
Banned
Opinions. I can't bring myself to read the speech bubbles but the art is wacky and fun.
Gutsy Frog
Banned
If a game advocated genocide you would actually have an objective reason to criticize it (genocide is objectively harmful irl).
Meanwhile AlimNassor's post just said "I don't like this style" and that was it.
c'mon, sexy = juvenile? that is why i disagree with your views on this.
and it's obvious he's drawing sexy characters to appeal to people who like sexy characters. all his art has always created sexy characters of some kind and not all of them have ridiculous proportions. i'm sure you've seen plenty of his works in his other games. all his games have been based in various folklore and myths so it's also purely fantastical in nature which is reflected in his character designs. if he were to make a game based in a much more realistic setting then maybe i would agree that going overboard might look ridiculous but characters like the Sorceress looks fine in Dragon's Crown.
it would be nice if you listed these other games you feel have character designs that offend you. you mention that they exist but don't bother listing a single one.
Karsticles
Member
That must be why the Fighter has his arms crossed with a bitter look on his face. He spent 3 hours grooming his hair this morning before the quest, and the ladies aren't even paying attention to him.
I felt the same way. I am so artistically uncultured.
Looks pretty even to me.
Sorceress is hot, male counterpart has the pretty boy Sephiroth, bishi look.
Fighter has full armor archer is fully clothed with a average body. Both Dwarf and Amazon are muscular as fuck.
Honestly i think it would be better if artists like Kamitami paid no attention to people like you at all, and just kept on doing what they do best.
Gutsy Frog
Banned
Most adults would think anime hyper-fetishization is childish and silly. There's a reason why it's mostly nerds who like this stuff.
But then, the same applies to the type of over-the-top, cartoonish action portrayed in many games. If you're gonna complain about childish fantasies, then you'd have to go against a LOT of stuff.
Sorry we're using Western standards here. Get out of here with that contextualized comparison.
AlimNassor
Banned
Yeah, it's bizarre, and odd. I remember desperately searching across the net for Son of Ogre scans way back when.
the ending was lulz worthy.
SolidSnakex
Member
Yeah, I don't think for a second that he set out with any intent to offend anyone. He came up with the idea for DC around 15 years ago, and then it took him years to finally get a publisher to bite. And it seems like the publisher let him do what he wanted with the art. Which allowed him to pay homage to several artists that he quite clearly has a ton of respect for.
Omegasquash
Member
I don't know about the bolded...I'd bet there are lots of blokes out there that would like the looks of that.
"It's a homage" is not a valid counter-argument to a critique. Nor is, "well all fantasy artists depict them this way." Both are excuses for either ignoring a critique or refusing to think about it. As I asked in the post you're replying to: "if that is a common trope maybe there's a reason for it," encouraging you to think about why fantasy artists might have depicted their female subjects in very particular ways. --And as I also said in that post, the reason is not based on some sort of semi-historical analysis as you could argue it is for Amazons (sorcery does not exist). Note also that there's a thin line between cliche, homage, and stealing, and regardless of which you're doing you still are accountable for the content and messaging behind what you produce; even if you are not trying to say something, in effect you are by eg perpetuating a trope that you haven't fully conceptualized.
Gutsy Frog
Banned
It's also worth noting that only the later series adopted that style and the first Baki series had pretty normal anatomy.
The author WANTS Baki to be unrealistic and silly in both art and writing. He not only is capable of drawing more reasonable anatomy, he also has a history in actual combat:
He's already experienced the real life equivalent of what he's drawing, so all that's left is to make it completely insane and hyper-stylized.
Giolon
Member
Why do you continue to insist that his artwork is designed to appeal to teenagers only? Your opinions on what makes good, bad, mature, and immature art are not the final word. You insult his work and people who like it every time you speak.
And to the bolded part - If even one woman feels ostracized or uncomfortable because of art like this, this is not a defensible position. Everything does not have to be made for everyone. There is no right to be protected from being offended or uncomfortable, and catering to the whim of every person who's upset about everything leads to blandness, sameness, and boringness. Realism, positive messages, and faithfulness to real life are not the only artistic goals. There is plenty of room for the grotesque, the absurd, the erotic, and the fantastic. What about the women who don't agree with you who's responses posted here and in the other thread that you're just brushing off your shoulder as you continue to speak for them?
You want him to "think about why he's doing this," and then what? Come to the same realization as you that what he's doing is a heinous crime against women and humanity and decide from his heart to stop? What if he doesn't come to the same conclusion as you? What if he willfully decides to continue expressing what's in his mind's eye? Does that make him a bad person? Should he be punished? Ostracized?
djplaeskool
Member
I will have to strongly disagree with this notion. If all creators' threshold for other people's 'discomfort' were so low, nothing would ever be made. I am having a very difficult time seeing this as anything other than a borderline plea for self-censorship.
I agree that reflection is healthy, and we'll see where the Vanillaware design heads in the future, but Kamitani has been doing this for decades, and I hope he continues to be one of the most unique designers in the industry.
To be honest, all this hullabaloo will probably boost the game's exposure.
Dat Legendary Amazon Milk
This post consists, in its entirety, of explaining why you want George Kamitani to censor himself. You employ pejoratives directed both at him and his work, categorizing it as juvenile, harmful, ostracizing, discomfiting, and sexist. In the first paragraph you imply that video games have harmful effects on men, women, and on a nebulously defined gaming culture, but do not substantiate this in any way.
Inserting a statement that you are not advocating self-censorship is absurd. Advocating for certain thematic and artistic elements to be off-limits in video games (in this case, sexualized female character designs) is an explicit and overt call for censorship.
You're advocating that Dragon's Crown be censored, and it's certainly your prerogative to do so, but pretending that you aren't is nothing short of ridiculous when you write multiple paragraphs extolling the importance of limiting the range of acceptable expression within the medium of video games in service to a greater -- albeit ill-defined -- goal. Your disclaimer doesn't change this one iota.
If you are sincere in your statement that you do not advocate self-censorship then I think you would do well to ask yourself how it came to be that you are doing precisely that.
djplaeskool
Member
Also, the notion that ANYTHING in this game is lazily designed is utter hogwash.
Gutsy Frog
Banned
Yeah and there are women who like this stuff too. But they're an even smaller minority.
I get the feeling that most people would rather just look at real porn of real people instead of hyper-exaggerated anime stuff.
I do both.
But if you're gonna bring childishness into account then it's not a women's issue as much as a 'people who aren't huge nerds who look at drawn porn' issue. And, well, this game is obviously made for the latter group.
Ya blew it
Haha, wow. As long as one person feels wronged, seriously? How is that a defensible opinion for ANYTHING? Do you feel the same way about Victoria's Secret models? How about cheerleaders?
Also I love your explanation on what you want. You don't want to have to tell him his stuff should be censored, you want him to do deep reflection about his art in the hopes that he comes to that conclusion on his own and self imposes it.
Also I love your explanation on what you want. You don't want to have to tell him his stuff should be censored, you want him to do deep reflection about his art in the hopes that he comes to that conclusion on his own and self imposes it.
Easy shot. Japanese game, small publisher, male artist (who also happens to the ceo). If it is a female professional, no one wants to decrease the number of females in the industry and generally no one wants to criticize one of their group. Criticizing a Japanese game is fairly safe as the country is pretty irrelevant this generation anyway. And pissing Atlus or Vanillaware has no real consequence. An unsympathetic outsider is the perfect target.
You want to him to reduce his female hero builds back to archer only. Does inoffensiveness trump diversity? Technically if you believe those sex sells rather than parody, he actually expanded his models or attractiveness from 1- 3. Unfortunately 2 of those happen to be juvenile/offensive to you.
Tummi Gummi
Member
That's well beyond the slippery slope. It's completely, unambiguously ridiculous in every possible context. There's no way to parody that. None.
Reluctant-Hero
Member
This thread... it's giving me a head ache with circles we're talking ourselves into. Can we even consider DC as being a "niche" game with attention it's drawn?
Someone, be they man, woman, or child, will always find something to be offended by. That's the way of world. But lately, in gaming, we've entered into this strange realm of thought wherein all games have to be as inoffensive as possible to all people. Why?! I find this train of thought incredibly frustrating as I see it as a form of creative censorship. If anything, this leads credence to that concept of video games being art just as films, books, and music are already considered to be.
If an individual is offended by a piece of art, that's okay. I'm not going to criticize them for their feelings and neither should anyone else. I will respect their opinion and choice to disagree with the subject matter just as that individual should respect my opinion and choice to both enjoy and support that same subject matter.
What I'm trying to say is that is okay to like or dislike an art form, in this case it's Katamani's character artwork within Dragon's Crown. But I do not think that it is acceptable at all to suggest that Katamani, as an artist, should rethink the way he chooses to express his creativity in order to be as inoffensive as possible. And these Kotaku articles are doing just that, not cool at all.
Schrier, I'm sorry your offended and I respect your opinion. But get off your soap box. Your suggested censorship is not appreciated.
Someone, be they man, woman, or child, will always find something to be offended by. That's the way of world. But lately, in gaming, we've entered into this strange realm of thought wherein all games have to be as inoffensive as possible to all people. Why?! I find this train of thought incredibly frustrating as I see it as a form of creative censorship. If anything, this leads credence to that concept of video games being art just as films, books, and music are already considered to be.
If an individual is offended by a piece of art, that's okay. I'm not going to criticize them for their feelings and neither should anyone else. I will respect their opinion and choice to disagree with the subject matter just as that individual should respect my opinion and choice to both enjoy and support that same subject matter.
What I'm trying to say is that is okay to like or dislike an art form, in this case it's Katamani's character artwork within Dragon's Crown. But I do not think that it is acceptable at all to suggest that Katamani, as an artist, should rethink the way he chooses to express his creativity in order to be as inoffensive as possible. And these Kotaku articles are doing just that, not cool at all.
Schrier, I'm sorry your offended and I respect your opinion. But get off your soap box. Your suggested censorship is not appreciated.
He's just saying it deserves discussion if one person feels that way. Not that they should lock the fucking game up and kill the designer. Read the whole quote.
It would be well within someone's rights to create a "Birth of a Nation"-esque film today, but I don't think it would be widely accepted because our society has changed what it considers acceptable. He's not saying this game shouldn't be made, but let's discuss what motivated its creation and why people want it. Maybe that leads to a world with less tolerance for this type of art, maybe not.
As someone who is critiquing the DC art, I agree that the threshold of "even one woman being offended" is ridiculous. I don't think that's how this should work, and i dont think we should count the number of people offended, because I don't think personal offense should be the focus. The only thing I would want is for the DC artists to consider the critiques provided for future games. If they feel that the critiques are wrong or wrong-headed, then so be it. The larger conversation continues.
Barakov
Member
Well said.
Because in both cases we'd be comparing male expressions of what men find erotic.
Edit: "even one" is a hard bar to pass for just about anything. People on the internet will find cause to hate even the most innocent things. I'm just interested in swaying the default.
Tummi Gummi
Member
His idea of "discussion" is explicitly blaming it for misogyny. Maybe you should try reading what he's actually written.
Gutsy Frog
Banned
I'd just like to soapbox for a second and say that, personally, I think the people who claim that all fanservice in games that they like is actually 'satire' and 'making fun of sexism' are doing way more harm than jschreier.
People saying this about Lollipop Chainsaw are some of the worst offenders. They still make this claim, even after James Gunn has SPECIFICALLY GONE AGAINST THIS IN AN INTERVIEW. His stance was basically "yes, the protagonist's hyper-idealized, sexual look is wish-fulfillment - but, so what? A little bit of that is fine".
People saying this about Lollipop Chainsaw are some of the worst offenders. They still make this claim, even after James Gunn has SPECIFICALLY GONE AGAINST THIS IN AN INTERVIEW. His stance was basically "yes, the protagonist's hyper-idealized, sexual look is wish-fulfillment - but, so what? A little bit of that is fine".