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[SolidSnakex]

Why is a sorceress "typically" a busty woman? First, that's not what I immediately think when I think of sorceresses. Second, if that is a common trope maybe there's a reason for it? Amazons make sense, they at least have some historical context and therefore a perception based in some sort of reality as being fighting women in an apparently warm climate. Sorceresses less so, but note that "wanton" women were often burned as witches in puritanical societies.

Like i've said before, just throw the word Sorceress into google and watch what images pop up for it. Kamitani's in particular seems to be heavily inspired by Frazetta, and the link that I provided in my previous post gives you some examples of how he designed them.

 

[spandexmonkey]

I don't think anyone complained about Skullgirls even tho it has super sexy female characters. I dunno why the Sorc was singled out for this game.

Boob size? Perhaps there's a measurable point where they become "obscene"?

 

[jschreier]

If you think the fact they have agency means that they are not a negative image of women then that's fine that's your opinion. But I (and probably other people) will disagree with you.

I don't look at some of the female characters in this game or Soul Calibur V and see beautiful women, I see a disturbing perversion of the human form to suit teenage fantasies. I have no problem in saying that I dislike the character designs, and wish they were different. I think it's my right to call artists out who continue to use these sort of designs and complain, and whine and cry and throw a tantrum if I like. I wouldn't say I'm "educating" people or am somehow better than them - I have an opinion I feel rather strongly about and want to express that when given the chance.

I don't see why one can't complain about western games and eastern games - before this thing blew up I was thinking of writing a thread on the female character designs in Riot Games' League of Legends. Not sure if I still will - Schreier's article has brought up the same conversations anyway.

Well put. I'll add that images like this not only distort the human form to appeal to teenage fantasies, they serve to encourage the exclusionary tendencies of gaming culture. So many people already feel like they don't belong in the gaming world if they're not a straight male aged 12-30. Designs like this - and the designs of many other characters in many other games - perpetuate that. This is just one small example of a very big problem.

 

[partyphone]

I don't think anyone complained about Skullgirls even tho it has super sexy female characters. I dunno why the Sorc was singled out for this game.

like 15 seconds on google

http://venturebeat.com/2012/05/14/skullgirls-made-me-think-about-oversexualization/

And even if not a single person had raised any sort of criticism about Skullsgirls that doesn't nullify the criticisms of Dragon's Crown. Silence only helps to perpetuate things like sexism.

 

[djplaeskool]

I don't think anyone complained about Skullgirls even tho it has super sexy female characters. I dunno why the Sorc was singled out for this game.

There was some talk, but most people simply stated they wouldn't play it and moved on. Most conversations about the design was short-lived and low-volume.

 

[Gutsy Frog]

People complained about Skullgirls a LOT. You should see the Tumblr arguments or the (now deleted for being a circlejerk of 'enlightened men' complaining about boobs) "Minority perspectives on gaming" thread on Something Awful. It got so bad that Alex Ahad wrote a big rebuttal to the sexism claims.

 

[partyphone]

Easy target because Vanillaware is a niche developer without the leverage to fight back.

It's disgusting.

Fight back against what? Some mild criticism?

You're as cute as your avatar.

 

[Lain]

http://art-eater.com/2010/07/test-1-darkstalkers/ Another good article.

I wish games got more of this brand of analysis and less of the Jason Schreier brand.

You usually need to have a culture in art to make good articles about art.

 

[michaelius]

like 15 seconds on google

http://venturebeat.com/2012/05/14/skullgirls-made-me-think-about-oversexualization/

And even if not a single person had raised any sort of criticism about Skullsgirls that doesn't nullify the criticisms of Dragon's Crown. Silence only helps to perpetuate things like sexism.

Good thing we can buy it and show we don't care about rediculus politicall correctness by voting with wallet.

 

[SolidSnakex]

Well put. I'll add that images like this not only distort the human form to appeal to teenage fantasies, they serve to encourage the exclusionary tendencies of gaming culture. So many people already feel like they don't belong in the gaming world if they're not a straight male aged 12-30. Designs like this - and the designs of many other characters in many other games - perpetuate that. This is just one small example of a very big problem.

So, what exactly do you want from Kamitani? You don't want him to censor, correct? So what do you want him to do?

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Easy target because Vanillaware is a niche developer without the leverage to fight back.

It's disgusting.

Gambatte, Vanillaware-sama~

 

[Haly]

Well put. I'll add that images like this not only distort the human form to appeal to teenage fantasies, they serve to encourage the exclusionary tendencies of gaming culture. So many people already feel like they don't belong in the gaming world if they're not a straight male aged 12-30. Designs like this - and the designs of many other characters in many other games - perpetuate that. This is just one small example of a very big problem.

You, like many others, have failed to grasp the idea behind exaggeration and how it's different from sexualization. The impossibility of the Sorceress' designs means that it should not be viewed as some sort of ideal woman in Kamitani's mind. Many other more "realistic" women that have consistently prominent chests are actual examples of sexualization for the sake of sexualization. They represent a possible body type that is difficult to achieve, and only exist for the sake of titillation, which is far more damaging than something like the Sorceress.

You'd have an arguement if Kamitani maintained the same aesthetic for all women in Dragon's Crown, like how all women in DoA are overflowing in the chest department.

He doesn't. There's a wide variety of body types, which makes it unreasonable to single one or two as though it was representative of the entire game.

Not to mention Vanillaware is a niche developer so in the grand scheme of things this wouldn't even be a blip on the radar.

Indeed! It's like all these guys arguing saying, "This is so offensive to women! It offends me! I'm embarrassed by it!"

And we're over here like, "Not really...it looks cool!"

I could go on by how much more offended by Samus' Zero Suit I am because it goes against her character, by that's unrelated nonsense and I'm not going to derail anything.

So in summary, if you are a Man, and large breasted characters offend and embarrass you, that's fine. However don't say that is offends everyone with a vagina.

showed the wifey, and since she has taken over vita duties in the house (going to have to get another soon lol) she wants it bad, she said it looked great to her...

You conveniently ignore these as well.

Fight back against what? Some mild criticism?

You're as cute as your avatar.

Unjust and narrowminded accusations of perpetuating sexism. If this was "mild", none of you would be here right now. Clearly it's escalated into something else entirely.

 

[Gutsy Frog]

Well put. I'll add that images like this not only distort the human form to appeal to teenage fantasies, they serve to encourage the exclusionary tendencies of gaming culture. So many people already feel like they don't belong in the gaming world if they're not a straight male aged 12-30. Designs like this - and the designs of many other characters in many other games - perpetuate that. This is just one small example of a very big problem.

This is a game that is
1. built from the ground-up around this form of hyper-exaggerated design
2. a very personal project for its team. It's quite comparable to Skullgirls, really.

It is specifically designed for the developers and the small niche that will find it interesting.

Meanwhile we have RPGs which are supposed to have a 'be your own character' thing going for them that give male players proper armor but force female characters into bikini armor. Games that are actually all about self-projection, not about pre-made characters that represent the fantasies of the creators. Or games that are generally more believable and down-to-earth in their design EXCEPT for the female designs, which are that way because "hey, that's just gaming tradition". Your decision to single out this game in particular gives off the idea that such self-indulgent material is simply inherently harmful and should not exist.

And once again, why not you focus on the industry's lack of MALE sexualization for a FEMALE audience? That would actually make things equal.

 

[partyphone]

Good thing we can buy it and show we don't care about rediculus politicall correctness by voting with wallet.

That is a good thing!

Personally I'm not calling for a boycott of this game. And I don't think you should feel bad for buying it or liking it. This game is just a very tiny part of a larger conversation about white male privilege in our culture.

 

[spandexmonkey]

Well put. I'll add that images like this not only distort the human form to appeal to teenage fantasies, they serve to encourage the exclusionary tendencies of gaming culture. So many people already feel like they don't belong in the gaming world if they're not a straight male aged 12-30. Designs like this - and the designs of many other characters in many other games - perpetuate that. This is just one small example of a very big problem.

Oh please, it's a safe way of pretending to care without addressing the real issues. As I said before, if you really care go fight for women on the fronts that matter. Lack of female leads, lack of female soldiers, games where women are given no agency, the industry's treatment of women professionally, etc.
I like sexualized fantasy art design. Let the women design a half naked man to stand by my half naked sorceress, I'll be happy to play alongside them. Making games cover up is not progressive.

Give me more femsheps, Jades and sorceresses. Less condenscension and division would be nice too.

 

[JordanN]

Well put. I'll add that images like this not only distort the human form to appeal to teenage fantasies, they serve to encourage the exclusionary tendencies of gaming culture. So many people already feel like they don't belong in the gaming world if they're not a straight male aged 12-30. Designs like this - and the designs of many other characters in many other games - perpetuate that. This is just one small example of a very big problem.

Is this just your imagination?

I think games are broad enough that if there's something you don't like, there's another game for you and that it doesn't mean you're apart of some "12-30" club (or whatever that means).

How many games on the Wii or DS even attempt this? I actually see lots of girls playing that (the later that is).

Edit: If my streepass is anything to go by then 3DS as well.

 

[partyphone]

Unjust and a narrowminded accusations of perpetuating sexism. If this was "mild", none of you would be here right now. Clearly it's escalated into something else entirely.

What is it escalating to, exactly? Something else is a little vague. Because I'm just seeing some posts on a message board and an article on kotaku. Are there, *gasp*, other articles on other websites?!

 

[SmokyDave]

That is a good thing!

Personally I'm not calling for a boycott of this game. And I don't think you should feel bad for buying it or liking it. This game is just a very tiny part of a larger conversation about white male privilege in our culture.

Where on earth does race fit in here?

Well put. I'll add that images like this not only distort the human form to appeal to teenage fantasies, they serve to encourage the exclusionary tendencies of gaming culture. So many people already feel like they don't belong in the gaming world if they're not a straight male aged 12-30. Designs like this - and the designs of many other characters in many other games - perpetuate that. This is just one small example of a very big problem.

You sound like you're about 5 years behind the curve. Gaming has never been larger or more inclusive than it is now.

 

[partyphone]

Where on earth does race fit in here?

It doesn't really apply to this game(although isn't every character white?). But whenever there's a conversation about gender or race in the gaming community it pretty much boils down to the same bad arguments regardless of the specific topic and white male privilege is at the root of it.

 

[Haly]

What is it escalating to, exactly? Something else is a little vague. Because I'm just seeing some posts on a message board and an article on kotaku. Are there, *gasp*, other articles on other websites?!

It's on Gamaustra now: http://gamasutra.com/blogs/Christia...rge_Kamitani_and_being_stupid_on_Facebook.php

Apparently, Kamitani is so petty as to take the time out of his day to do a nice painting of burly dwarves just out of spite.

Today's Penny Arcade

I don't recall all this over Skullgirls, or Soul Calibur, and I wouldn't be surprised if it blew up from here. Anything that ends up on Penny-Arcade spreads like wildfire.

For a niche developer like Vanillaware, this can be actually damaging. They're not a monolithic entity that can absorb some controversy with sheer number of fans, they are constantly struggling to make their games in an uncaring environment.

 

[LiK]

Well put. I'll add that images like this not only distort the human form to appeal to teenage fantasies, they serve to encourage the exclusionary tendencies of gaming culture. So many people already feel like they don't belong in the gaming world if they're not a straight male aged 12-30. Designs like this - and the designs of many other characters in many other games - perpetuate that. This is just one small example of a very big problem.

I disagree with this entire post.

 

[SmokyDave]

It doesn't really apply to this game(although isn't every character white?). But whenever there's a conversation about gender or race in the gaming community it pretty much boils down to the same bad arguments regardless of the specific topic and white male privilege is at the root of it.

In as much as it's mostly privileged white males getting offended on behalf of everyone else?

I don't think you're doing anyone any favours by conflating racial issues with gender issues.

 

[Hero]

Don't bother arguing with Jason about it. In the Games Journalism! thread he said other people were putting words in his mouth when all they did was quote his articles. He clearly has his misguided agenda which no one can convince him otherwise despite testimony from people who are either female gamers themselves. It's pretty hilarious that out of all the games that have come out in even just recent years this is the game where he decides to stand up and become the voice of the gaming community to better the industry for women because he represents those who don't have a voice.

 

[Karsticles]

I don't recall all this over Skullgirls, or Soul Calibur, and I wouldn't be surprised if it blew up from here. Anything that ends up on Penny-Arcade spreads like wildfire.

For a niche developer like Vanillaware, this can be actually damaging. They're not a monolithic entity that can absorb some controversy with sheer number of fans, they are constantly struggling to make their games in an uncaring environment.

This won't hurt VanillaWare. It's a few kids writing pseudofeminist commentary on the game. No one is influenced by anything Schreier writes. People who liked the game when it was announced still do, and those who don't still don't. The only change is that the whiners are helping to spread awareness of the game's existence, which can only increase the number of people who like (and dislike) the game. It's a good thing for VanillaWare. The best thing would be for Schreier to write another article when the Amazon is revealed, complaining about whatever he dislikes about her (skimpy clothing, maybe? - just giving him an idea since he's in the thread!). If Penny Arcade makes a comic, that just shows how well information is being spread.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

I think it's extremely healthy that the industry is having this discussion. Not sure if I agree that this game specifically did anything "intentional" but its healthy nonetheless.

 

[Skilletor]

What the fuck is going on in this thread?

 

[Haly]

I don't even know why "white male privilage" is being brought up in this conversation about an obscure Japanese developer.

Has Dragon's Crown somehow become the vanguard of the "white male privilege" epidemic?

If so I drastically underestimated Kamitani's extensive influence on both the Eastern and Western gaming industries.

All hail based Kamitani.

This won't hurt VanillaWare. It's a few kids writing pseudofeminist commentary on the game. No one is influenced by anything Schreier writes. People who liked the game when it was announced still do, and those who don't still don't. The only change is that the whiners are helping to spread awareness of the game's existence, which can only increase the number of people who like (and dislike) the game. It's a good thing for VanillaWare. The best thing would be for Schreier to write another article when the Amazon is revealed, complaining about whatever he dislikes about her (skimpy clothing, maybe? - just giving him an idea since he's in the thread!). If Penny Arcade makes a comic, that just shows how well information is being spread.

I wish I could be as positive about this as you but honestly it all makes me so angry

 

[Gutsy Frog]

Don't bother arguing with Jason about it. In the Games Journalism! thread he said other people were putting words in his mouth when all they did was quote his articles. He clearly has his misguided agenda which no one can convince him otherwise despite testimony from people who are either female gamers themselves. It's pretty hilarious that out of all the games that have come out in even just recent years this is the game where he decides to stand up and become the voice of the gaming community to better the industry for women because he represents those who don't have a voice.

Once I had a Twitter argument with a Kotaku writer who has written very, very similar articles. Some of her statements completely dumbfounded me, so I figured there was no way I was going to change her mind. Regardless, I pressed on while being as nice about it as I could, because I was bored.

Plot twist: I got her to admit that she was wrong about certain things, and also had MY mind changed about something.

 

[Muchi Muchi Pink]

Now every character is white in DC. Please, stop it.

 

[Kouichi]

I think it's extremely healthy that the industry is having this discussion. Not sure if I agree that this game specifically did anything "intentional" but its healthy nonetheless.

Too bad the industry is so bad at it, but I understand what you mean.

 

[SolidSnakex]

Don't bother arguing with Jason about it. In the Games Journalism! thread he said other people were putting words in his mouth when all they did was quote his articles. He clearly has his misguided agenda which no one can convince him otherwise despite testimony from people who are either female gamers themselves. It's pretty hilarious that out of all the games that have come out in even just recent years this is the game where he decides to stand up and become the voice of the gaming community to better the industry for women because he represents those who don't have a voice.

I just want to know exactly what he wants from these developers if he's not asking for censorship.

I disagree with a lot what he said (particularly with the idea that images like the Sorceress are what turn women away from gaming), but i'd just like that above question answered by him.

 

[michaelius]

I think it's extremely healthy that the industry is having this discussion. Not sure if I agree that this game specifically did anything "intentional" but its healthy nonetheless.

It's not healthy - it's another example of obsessive politicall correctness trying to enforce it's standards.

 

[Haly]

Now every character is white in DC. Please, stop it.

Well he has a point there, but that's easily explained by the fact that Dragon's Crown is heavily influenced by western fantasy, Renaissance era art, Greek art, etc.

I think it's extremely healthy that the industry is having this discussion. Not sure if I agree that this game specifically did anything "intentional" but its healthy nonetheless.

No it isn't. There's a time and place for everything and this is the wrong battleground for sexism in the industry. All it does is draw attention away from where they should be.

 

[Gutsy Frog]

It's not healthy - it's another example of obsessive politicall correctness trying to enforce it's standards.

Maybe if this goes on, people will realize that the real way to appeal to women is to throw them a bone, too. Not to take away the bone from men and go "SEE LADIES, NOW YOU'RE EQUAL".

At least, I hope.

 

[Rickenslacker]

I think there would be more merit to this if the Sorceress design was the majority female design in the game, or if she was even depicted weak as a character, needing saving or acting as the reward for your troubles. But she's just the one character, and a capable player character at that, so I find it a little eyerolling when dudes say that any form of male sexiness (but I'm not saying that necessarily applies to DC's PC males) can also double as a power fantasy while being inapplicable to females.

Though I am completely fine with any females that are actually offended by the design, I just groan when a guy feels the need to take that offense and talk on their behalf.

 

[AlimNassor]

Her boobs are disgustingly huge and stupid looking. They don't even look like they're attached to her chest anymore.

 

[Psycho_Mantis]

Did Duke Nukem get any flack over their portrayal of women as sex things? They even had some promotional thing where you had to get these women naked by playing some game on a website. Thats far more sexualising than anything DC has.

I can believe people are getting worked up over a character with large tits over games where you kill innocent civilians with swords, guns, explosives and vehicles.

 

[Haly]

Her boobs are disgustingly huge and stupid looking. They don't even look like they're attached to her chest anymore.

And these are the kind of standards Kamitani wants to instill in his audience. What an awful immoral man.

 

[Hero]

I just want to know exactly what he wants from these developers if he's not asking for censorship.

I disagree with a lot what he said (particularly with the idea that images like the Sorceress are what turn women away from gaming), but i'd just like that above question answered by him.

I would like to know this too but apparently nobody will answer this. Not him nor the people who agree with him.

"I don't believe in artistic censorship but I don't like this art, I don't find it tasteful, I think it does more harm than good."

Congratulations for your wonderful commentary and insight. I look forward to reading this line like this or others like this for every single game that has a sexualized female character in it in the gaming industry because if Dragon's Crown hurts the industry then there are some other games out there that outright condemn it.

Once I had a Twitter argument with a Kotaku writer who has written very, very similar articles. Some of her statements completely dumbfounded me, so I figured there was no way I was going to change her mind. Regardless, I pressed on while being as nice about it as I could, because I was bored.

Plot twist: I got her to admit that she was wrong about certain things, and also had MY mind changed about something.

I commend you on your ability to engage anyone on Twitter long enough to do so.

 

[michaelius]

Maybe if this goes on, people will realize that the real way to appeal to women is to throw them a bone, too. Not to take away the bone from men and go "SEE LADIES, NOW YOU'RE EQUAL".

At least, I hope.

I'd hope so too but so far I don't see a call for making more women oriented games like other entertainment industries have (books, movies) but instead only attempts to restrict products clearly aimed at men.

 

[Muchi Muchi Pink]

Her boobs are disgustingly huge and stupid looking. They don't even look like they're attached to her chest anymore.

Didn't you post this already yesterday in the other thread?

 

[JordanN]

Edit: Nvm, I'm just being over the top.

 

[Pyrrhus]

You know, I complained about the art being over the top earlier in this thread, but given this latest round of bullshit, I say more power to Kamitani. Go for it, man. Let her box people with her boobs if you want. I'm sick of these constant navel-gazing storms-in-a-teacup. I thought his response was humorous and lighthearted. This endless, oversensitive yowling from enlightened white boys is obnoxious.

 

[LiK]

Did Duke Nukem get any flack over their portrayal of women as sex things? They even had some promotional thing where you had to get these women naked by playing some game on a website. Thats far more sexualising than anything DC has.

I can believe people are getting worked up over a character with large tits over games where you kill innocent civilians with swords, guns, explosives and vehicles.

Sex is always more offensive than violence in media. They scream censorship when certain kills are taken out in countries like Japan and Germany etc.

 

[Haly]

There's a guest article in Kotaku on Duke Nukem but that's about it.

 

[AlimNassor]

Didn't you post this already yesterday in the other thread?

And I will keep on doing so. I like my characters to be visually appealing. She is not, nor are the male characters visually appealing. I want cute girls doing cute things, and she is neither cute nor doing anything.

 

[LiK]

And I will keep on doing so. I like my characters to be visually appealing. She is not, nor are the male characters visually appealing.

The backgrounds and monster designs are gorgeous too. I know you love it.

 

[Muchi Muchi Pink]

And I will keep on doing so. I like my characters to be visually appealing. She is not, nor are the male characters visually appealing.

Fine, play something different?

 

[Haly]

Actually, I just realized Fighter is pretty dreamy without his helmet.

 

[Rickenslacker]

Actually, I just realized Fighter is pretty dreamy without his helmet.

I wouldn't mind if he got a Barbarian-type alt skin.