Support NeoGAF

[charlequin]

So the future PC gaming is Valve, Activision, and Gog?

Plus the ability to buy just about any game directly from its publisher if you don't like Steam, yes, and I don't see any serious argument as to why that status quo is so terrible.

Its much easier to just join Steam.

For who? It's easier for consumers to have a Steam account, yes, but that doesn't make them zombies who are incapable of shopping elsewhere. It's not actually easier for indie game developers to join Steam; it's much easier for them to start out by selling their game direct and then joining Steam later after they've already found some measure of success.

The more influence Valve gets the easier it is to exert that influence.

Describe to me precisely, including all relevant steps, how Valve's success enables them to prevent the Minecraft approach -- i.e. make a good indie PC game, get buzz from blogs and forums, and sell it exclusively on your own site directly without offering it on any larger storefront at all.

im thinking back to the first half of last decade and i cant really see how Steam corrected what was going wrong then.

The biggest thing Steam's done to improve on that period is to square the DRM circle by replacing tons of buggy, invasive, and ineffectual DRM systems with a single transparent one. Auto-patching, persistent friends list, and central shopping destination that actively promotes mid-tier and indie titles would all also be on the list.

 

[hamchan]

But the PS2 situation was better for consumers than the current state of affairs. Games were cheaper, platform prices were cheaper, nearly every significant exclusive was localized, and lots of niche third party titles thrived, because all consumers owned the same hardware. As a consumer, I could have access to most games released with a single $200 purchase. That's not true anymore.

Now you have some bizarre clusterfuck where the market leader system doesn't get most of the third-party games released, and the developers who aren't big sellers now can't survive at retail, and are dying. Game prices are higher than they were before, on the whole, and I haven't seen any real benefits as a consumer from the more balanced marketshares. Digital distribution sort of balances this, but not completely. And since those storefronts are defined by their exclusive content, sales are rare, and far less significant than they are on PC's digital distribution storefronts.

What was so bad about the PS2 age?

The PS2 era really was a golden age. So many good memories from that time.

 

[szaromir]

Well, I actually agree that it'd be nice if they let other stores sell their games. I think it would be a good gesture to treat their titles like other Steamworks games and offer them to other DD services (not, I'm thinking, that most of them would actually accept them.) Not including a client isn't necessarily a reasonable requirement; Steam sells games that require third-party clients or have external DRM, so I don't see anything wrong with them having a similar requirement themselves.

Well, Valve forces you to run Steam on top of games' own DRM solutions, so you often have two DRM apps causing potential problems and slowing your computer down.

It would be also nice of Valve not to treat me like dirt and allow me to run HL2 and their other single player games without Steam, having Steam necessary only for the MP game.

This is exactly the shallow economic thinking that I'm talking about. Competition is not magic, and does not produce purely beneficial results, especially in scenarios where there are pre-existing restrictions (such as the granted monopolies on content or the network effects from network-driven apps.) The easy way to see this is to look at a format war.

5 years later and the price of BRD movies remains extremely high. On the streaming market there is actual competition and the prices are attractive. I wonder how that works. You used earlier the console example. Last gen one of the consoles had 70% marketshare and if you wanted to play some third party games that could theoretically run on competing platforms, you had no choice but to buy the game on that one platform and accept all the flaws of that console (and there were many of them). Now you almost always have a choice between ps3 or 360 version and you can now decide which online system/controller/other stuff you prefer. How does the consumer loose?

 

[MarshMellow96]

I'm probably being ignorant but..

Isn't the 'control' solely in the hand's of the developers that put their games one Steam? I mean, (without any knowledge of contracts or whatever) theoretically, if the major companies like Capcom, THQ, Activision etc just pulled out, then Valve are left with Half-Life, L4D etc to sell on their store.

What I'm trying to say is - however far-fetched it sounds - isn't there a possibility that other companies could quite easily do what EA has done? As far as I can see, that only harms Valve and the consumer. Valve because there store more or less disappears and the consumer because they're stuck downloading a proprietary client for each developer. That certainly doesn't solve the problem of 'having to run Steam in the background' - you'll probably end up doing that with anything else that these companies come up with.

Maybe 'market share' and 'control of the market' are two different things? I don't know..

 

[Kintaro]

Hmmm, if Valve controls 70% of the PC gaming market, my thinks the PC gaming market would be fucked given that Steam's highest amount of total players was what... 3.5-4 million users online? The most played game is usually always Counter Fucking Strike?

So, yeah. That stat seems to be way the heck off.

5 years later and the price of BRD movies remains extremely high. On the streaming market there is actual competition and the prices are attractive. I wonder how that works.

Streaming is shit (and is priced as such because you get what you pay for) and I don't know where the hell you buy your blu rays, but perhaps you should stop shopping at Best Buy.

 

[JaseC]

Well, Valve forces you to run Steam on top of games' own DRM solutions, so you often have two DRM apps causing potential problems and slowing your computer down.

It would be also nice of Valve not to treat me like dirt and allow me to run HL2 and their other single player games without Steam, having Steam necessary only for the MP game.


5 years later and the price of BRD movies remains extremely high. On the streaming market there is actual competition and the prices are attractive. I wonder how that works. You used earlier the console example. Last gen one of the consoles had 70% marketshare and if you wanted to play some third party games that could theoretically run on competing platforms, you had no choice but to buy the game on that one platform and accept all the flaws of that console (and there were many of them). Now you almost always have a choice between ps3 or 360 version and you can now decide which online system/controller/other stuff you prefer. How does the consumer loose?

Perhaps where you live, sure, that is true.

Hmmm, if Valve controls 70% of the PC gaming market, my thinks the PC gaming market would be fucked given that Steam's highest amount of total players was what... 3.5-4 million users online? The most played game is usually always Counter Fucking Strike?

So, yeah. That stat seems to be way the heck off.

Can't blame Steam users for appreciating quality. Aside from when Terraria went on sale, I can't recall the last time CS/CS:S was bumped off the top spot.

 

[ROBOKITTYZILLA]

It's not actually easier for indie game developers to join Steam; it's much easier for them to start out by selling their game direct and then joining Steam later after they've already found some measure of success.

Maybe in some cases but there's this quote from the Terraria developers:

We want to send a special shout out to the team at Valve who help us with out with the general advice they send our way. The way they treat others is a great tribute to gamers everywhere. With so many game companies focusing more on profit, its great to see a company focusing more on the gamer themselves. And their support of indie developers offers a great shining example to other studios.

I don't think you will ever hear a developer say that EA is a shining example to other studios.

 

[charlequin]

When Modern Warfare 2 came out the other DD channels refused to sell the game because it used Steamworks. Since D2D, Impulse, and Gamersgate are essentially non-players in PC gaming they have since accepted the reality that there is no going against Valve and now sell Steamworks games.

I think it's worth noting that the argument here was always "we won't sell Steamworks games, they're a Trojan horse for someone else's service," but Steam itself has always been willing to sell games that include Trojan horses for other services, as demonstrated by the availability of GFWL titles on Steam.

5 years later and the price of BRD movies remains extremely high.

This is almost too absurd to even address. For all the problems with the BRD market, it is unambiguously superior to what we'd have if HD-DVD and BRD were still limply fighting it out.

Now you almost always have a choice between ps3 or 360 version and you can now decide which online system/controller/other stuff you prefer. How does the consumer loose?

Choice between PS3 and 360 versions of a game is an illusory "choice" at best. Companies have to spend more to chase the same amount of sales, which is one factor that has helped kill the midrange market (there are far fewer midrange titles available for any system now, because no individual platform has the market share to sell them and it's too expensive for their developers to make them multiplatform.) Fewer games are localized due to platform mismatches between regions (see all the PSP games that aren't getting US releases now as a good example.) Online games especially lose out because players now have to not just buy a game but consider which system each friend will buy it on. (And so on, and so forth.)

 

[szaromir]

What was so bad about the PS2 age?

PS2 stagnated on online front. You had no choice of your controller of choice as even third party controllers mimicked Dual Shock's (rather bad) layout. The PS2 was making very loud noises whenever it was starting to spin the disc in the drive. I'd choose GC or Xbox version any time but often these platforms didn't get their version - I was stuck with the inferior experience on PS2. This gen though, you almost always get to choose what console you want to play the game on, which is far more consumer friendly.

 

[water_wendi]

Describe to me precisely, including all relevant steps, how Valve's success enables them to prevent the Minecraft approach -- i.e. make a good indie PC game, get buzz from blogs and forums, and sell it exclusively on your own site directly without offering it on any larger storefront at all.

Minecraft is definitely an exception. There are tons of developers that have said that if it werent for Steam they couldnt make games. On its face this seems good but it illustrates the power Steam has. You are either with Steam or you cannot make it.

The biggest thing Steam's done to improve on that period is to square the DRM circle by replacing tons of buggy, invasive, and ineffectual DRM systems with a single transparent one. Auto-patching, persistent friends list, and central shopping destination that actively promotes mid-tier and indie titles would all also be on the list.

Ah.. i knew i was missing something. Yes, you are right. i forgot about DRM because it has never been an issue for me. i think the only game i never got around to buying because it was never cracked was American McGees Scrapland.

 

[charlequin]

Maybe in some cases but there's this quote from the Terraria developers:

Not saying Valve isn't helpful to indies (they clearly are in many cases), just that it's literally easier (i.e. less work) to sell a game direct than to get it approved by Steam.

 

[Baha]

Hmmm, if Valve controls 70% of the PC gaming market, my thinks the PC gaming market would be fucked given that Steam's highest amount of total players was what... 3.5-4 million users online? The most played game is usually always Counter Fucking Strike?

So, yeah. That stat seems to be way the heck off.



Streaming is shit (and is priced as such because you get what you pay for) and I don't know where the hell you buy your blu rays, but perhaps you should stop shopping at Best Buy.

I would place Blizzard above Steam simply for WoW subscriptions alone. 12 million subscribers as of last year (http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/30845/World_Of_Warcraft_Reaches_12_Million_Subscribers_Worldwide.php).

 

[Sciz]

What I'm trying to say is - however far-fetched it sounds - isn't there a possibility that other companies could quite easily do what EA has done? As far as I can see, that only harms Valve and the consumer. Valve because there store more or less disappears and the consumer because they're stuck downloading a proprietary client for each developer.

They could. They also then have to provide their own infrastructure, their own support, and they have to somehow make consumers aware that they can buy games directly from them. It's a risky proposition when working with Valve is already a known success that provides solid revenue and high visibility.

 

[shuyin_]

This is exactly the shallow economic thinking that I'm talking about. Competition is not magic, and does not produce purely beneficial results, especially in scenarios where there are pre-existing restrictions (such as the granted monopolies on content or the network effects from network-driven apps.) The easy way to see this is to look at a format war. If instead of dying off, HD-DVD had doggedly held on and created its own secondary market, yes there'd be "more competition" in HD movie discs, but the market would be worse for everyone: companies would make less money on HD video, stores would stock fewer different titles (since they'd need to keep up two distinct sections), consumers would pay more for individual videos, people would need two players to see all the different movies, etc. In that case (and many other specific markets), the possibility of competition is important (it was good that two different formats squared off so that the better option could win) but on a day-to-day basis the market is better off with a single, inter-operable standard that everyone agrees on and which no one is continuing to compete with going forward.

Again, your analogy does not work.
1. The Bluray vs. HD-DVD war was between 2 standards. In that case, the market was better with one standard.
2. That was a case of stores selling 2 similar products, but the market was split between the 2 standards. One product was for customers that had that particular storage-unit, the other for different customers (those that owned the other type of storage unit).
In the case of DD stores, they all sell the same product (games) to the same customers.

Also, any view that considers only price as relevant to consumer wellbeing is fundamentally absurd. All commerce involves positioning based both on price and content. Pure price competition only works on commodity goods where content/features are primarily meaningless (and even then, brand and intangibles let certain companies get away with not meeting the lowest price floor); in more complex markets, features and secondary characteristics are just as important, if not more important, than price in terms of overall consumer benefit.

Price and content are 2 important attributes when considering whether or not competition in a given field is beneficial, i agree.
And no matter how you look at it, with more stores you get both this attributes: better prices, more content.

Really, in this context, competition is beneficial from all the points of view that you mentioned.

 

[Kintaro]

I don't think you will ever hear a developer say that EA is a shining example to other studios.

Really? Ever heard of EA partners? That Valve is a part of? Epic too? Insomniac as well?

 

[hamchan]

Hmmm, if Valve controls 70% of the PC gaming market, my thinks the PC gaming market would be fucked given that Steam's highest amount of total players was what... 3.5-4 million users online? The most played game is usually always Counter Fucking Strike?

So, yeah. That stat seems to be way the heck off.

I think Valve just controls 70% of the PC DD market. Still plenty of places where DD isn't as prevalent due to bandwidth issues. Asia probably contributes the most to PC gaming but I don't know how well Steam penetration is there, I'm going to guess not much.

 

[ShinNL]

I don't understand what is exactly "bad" about Steam for developers. People used to have to buy PC games in stores and Steam changed that while giving a larger % profit margin than retail. It's because of Steam that more people are buying games which they otherwise wouldn't have, simply because the old style of buying at retail, fiddle with discs, install and then play just isn't for them.

For me personally it closed the gap immensely between consoles and PC. Steam has it's own advantages (having the library on their servers is the biggest plus for me), so it's a lot of features of great value that's added to your game. Would I ever buy a random $1 game of the internet? Probably not. But with Steam you just buy it and know it's in your collection. It's a trusted place to buy things.

People act as if Valve owns the PC world, but the Steam part is more like a K-mart. Sure they make a lot of money but the service is excellent (remember the first time you realized you could delete and download unlimited amount of times and that your library works on any computer as long as you log in?). DD service =/= PC games.

Unfortunately my post sounds almost viral

 

[JaseC]

I would place Blizzard above Steam simply for WoW subscriptions alone. 12 million subscribers as of last year (http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/30845/World_Of_Warcraft_Reaches_12_Million_Subscribers_Worldwide.php).

The last time Valve spoke publicly about Steam's userbase, they said that the service has 30 million "active" user accounts. "Active" meaning accounts that had been used in the past month.

WoW may (and likely does; I hardly follow it) have more concurrent users, but Steam's userbase isn't as "small" as the counter implies.

Really? Ever heard of EA partners? That Valve is a part of? Epic too? Insomniac as well?

Valve are only part of EA Partners due to their retail distribution agreement. Given the Steam shenanigans of late, and the fact EA bitched to Valve when the latter intended to unlock Portal 2 early, I'd be truly surprised if Valve went back to EA for their next retail release.

 

[szaromir]

Choice between PS3 and 360 versions of a game is an illusory "choice" at best. Companies have to spend more to chase the same amount of sales, which is one factor that has helped kill the midrange market (there are far fewer midrange titles available for any system now, because no individual platform has the market share to sell them and it's too expensive for their developers to make them multiplatform.) Fewer games are localized due to platform mismatches between regions (see all the PSP games that aren't getting US releases now as a good example.) Online games especially lose out because players now have to not just buy a game but consider which system each friend will buy it on. (And so on, and so forth.)

Well I still have midrange games on PC, console midbudget games were very mediocre in the PS2 era anyway. These games died because there was no market for them, not because multiple platforms killed them. As far as localization goes - most of the platforms are not region locked (and if they are most of the games aren't) - if you are passionate about games from other countries, just learn the language, no big deal. There were tons of nonlocalized PS2 and GC games, too.

 

[epmode]

Unfortunately posts sounds almost viral

Sometimes a company really is that good. I'm sure I sound the same when I rave about Amazon and Valve.

 

[ROBOKITTYZILLA]

Really? Ever heard of EA partners? That Valve is a part of? Epic too? Insomniac as well?

I'm not saying that they don't have business partners that are happy with their publishing deals. I just don't ever recall any developers representing EA in a similar light.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

Minecraft is definitely an exception. There are tons of developers that have said that if it werent for Steam they couldnt make games. On its face this seems good but it illustrates the power Steam has. You are either with Steam or you cannot make it.

So Minecraft was a success, which you admit, but then you say 'you are either with Steam or you cannot make it'. Yea...

 

[Sciz]

As far as localization goes - most of the platforms are not region locked (and if they are most of the games aren't) - if you are passionate about games from other countries, just learn the language, no big deal. There were tons of nonlocalized PS2 and GC games, too.

what

 

[water_wendi]

So Minecraft was a success, which you admit, but then you say 'you are either with Steam or you cannot make it'. Yea...

im not saying that. Developers are. Thats why i said that Minecraft is the exception.

 

[Sciz]

im not saying that. Developers are. Thats why i said that Minecraft is the exception.

What, exactly, would most indies do if Steam didn't exist?

 

[szaromir]

what

I am Polish, I have played multiple games in English, German, French, recently started playing games in Spanish for the lulz (I doubt Spanish will ever turn out useful to me). Having to use dictionary might be a pain in the ass, but I like to combine entertainment with education.

 

[water_wendi]

What, exactly, would most indies do if Steam didn't exist?

i never said anything about Steam not existing.

 

[Kintaro]

The last time Valve spoke publicly about Steam's userbase, they said that the service has 30 million "active" user accounts. "Active" meaning accounts that had been used in the past month.

Well, this is a bit misleading since you're forced to use Steam any time you buy a Valve game from retail. But all stats can be misleading.

Valve are only part of EA Partners due to their retail distribution agreement. Given the Steam shenanigans of late, and the fact EA bitched to Valve when the latter intended to unlock Portal 2 early, I'd be truly surprised if Valve went back to EA for their next retail release.

Who knows. Unless Valve wants to publish themselves (doubt it, otherwise they would have already) or sign exclusives or deal with the devil (Activision) who else has the retail reach that EA does?

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

im not saying that. Developers are. Thats why i said that Minecraft is the exception.

And WHY do so many Indie's favor Valve? Because they are supportive of Indies and give them the advertising to their customers. And WHY does Valve have so many people who use Steam? Because they have built a relationship with them over these years. You continually respond as though folks like myself are some type of zombie just following Valve wherever they go and whatever they do. Perhaps you and other companies like EA should ask WHY Valve is so successful instead of throwing darts at them for being so successful.

 

[hamchan]

Somehow something praising Valve and Steam, "without Steam we wouldn't still be making games", has been twisted into a criticism. Steam ushered in the DD age on PC and pretty much gave a lot of smaller devs more prevalence and mindshare. Without DD I doubt I would have ever played many games like Magicka or Mount and Blade.

 

[ShinNL]

I am Polish, I have played multiple games in English, German, French, recently started playing games in Spanish for the lulz (I doubt Spanish will ever turn out useful to me). Having to use dictionary might be a pain in the ass, but I like to combine entertainment with education.

What the hell, in what world do you live in where we have German-, French- and Spanish-exclusive games where you're forced to learn the language to understand it?

 

[szaromir]

What the hell, in what world do you live in where we have German-, French- and Spanish-exclusive games where you're forced to learn the language to understand it?

Well, there aren't (m)any, but I'm just showing that you can play foreign, whining about increased console competition shouldn't be an excuse. Nowadays whenever I hear that Nolan North is in the game I avoid the English version.

 

[JaseC]

Well, this is a bit misleading since you're forced to use Steam any time you buy a Valve game from retail. But all stats can be misleading.

True, but at the time the time the figure was announced Valve's last "big" release was L4D2 almost a year prior.

Who knows. Unless Valve wants to publish themselves (doubt it, otherwise they would have already) or sign exclusives or deal with the devil (Activision) who else has the retail reach that EA does?

Well, technically, Valve do self-publish, but they simply lack the retail distribution network to get their games to stores (in fact, I think somebody mentioned as much earlier in the thread). Valve certainly could cut out that relatively small middle-man, but I imagine it would be much easier to find a more willing large-scale publisher (Acti, as you mentioned, or perhaps a lesser-fortunate publisher such as Take-Two or even their golden goose that is Rockstar).

 

[Kintaro]

Somehow something praising Valve and Steam, "without Steam we wouldn't still be making games", has been twisted into a criticism. Steam ushered in the DD age on PC and pretty much gave a lot of smaller devs more prevalence and mindshare. Without DD I doubt I would have ever played many games like Magicka or Mount and Blade.

As a PC gamer going back 20+ years, I spit on these words. Look, I love Steam too but really? Am I the only one old enough to remember shareware/freeware games all the damned time (you know, ones you download and install?) from, then, "indie" or small devs?

 

[Patrick Klepek]

I'll have a little more from EA about this on Monday fyi

 

[mavs]

Steamworks? Afaik even other DD sites have given up that fight because Valve wields too much control.

When you say ' given up that.fight' you mean ' sell those games just like steam does'? So when I say that customers can flit like hummingbirds between markets, you tell me steam took control by getting their client on everyone's computer? Every DD market is already on everyone's computer! It's just a very ignorant view of pc gaming, this is not the console world or a bunch of closed ecosystems.

 

[epmode]

I'll have a little more from EA about this on Monday fyi

I'll probably read your post on Monday fyi

 

[Nappuccino]

Well, there aren't (m)any, but I'm just showing that you can play foreign, whining about increased console competition shouldn't be an excuse. Nowadays whenever I hear that Nolan North is in the game I avoid the English version.

Subtitles aren't good enough for you i see...

Honestly, most people won't learn a whole language to play a game. They'll learn a language for practical reasons (business or education) and maybe they'll play a game in that language to help keep that skill honed a bit.

Expecting more than that is a bit absurd.

 

[Patrick Klepek]

I've heard nothing from Valve despite repeated questioning, shrug

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

I'll have a little more from EA about this on Monday fyi

Patrick, just to confirm, Alice was NEVER on Steam to begin with. You should update your article with this information.

I've heard nothing from Valve despite repeated questioning, shrug

With good reason as others have stated. This is an in house issue, between Valve and EA/Crytek/Horse Games. That doesn't change the fact that games like BF3 and Alice were NEVER on Steam to begin with.

 

[Joe Molotov]

*enters thread*

*looks around*

*exits thread*

*goes back to playing Alice on Steam*

 

[hamchan]

As a PC gamer going back 20+ years, I spit on these words. Look, I love Steam too but really? Am I the only one old enough to remember shareware/freeware games all the damned time (you know, ones you download and install?) from, then, "indie" or small devs?

That was 20+ years ago and yes, that was before I was born. Obviously the marketplace 20+ years ago is different to more recent times so I don't know why you brought it up. Just look at how more games are being budgeted to AAA status and crowding out smaller budget games. If it weren't for the DD marketplaces indie games would receive way less attention and I don't know how you can deny it. Why do you spit at my words?

EDIT: I think we need a Steam vs Anti-Steam garbage thread. This thread isn't even about EA commenting on Alice anymore.

 

[water_wendi]

When you say ' given up that.fight' you mean ' sell those games just like steam does'? So when I say that customers can flit like hummingbirds between markets, you tell me steam took control by getting their client on everyone's computer? Every DD market is already on everyone's computer! It's just a very ignorant view of pc gaming, this is not the console world or a bunch of closed ecosystems.

When i say given up the fight i mean the fight to keep the storefront of the worlds largest and most successful video game DD out of the competitions store.

And as for Steam having GFWL games, Steam is in no position to even be hurt by such a move. GFWL is inconsequential to Steam.

 

[szaromir]

Subtitles aren't good enough for you i see...

Honestly, most people won't learn a whole language to play a game. They'll learn a language for practical reasons (business or education) and maybe they'll play a game in that language to help keep that skill honed a bit.

Expecting more than that is a bit absurd.

Well yeah, I learned English, French and German because I had to, but games certainly did help a lot with that. Books are a bit faster in that regard, but I don't like reading all the time. However, I don't expect anyone to do anything. Games are time wasters so you can at least learn something while playing them. We have a proverb in Polish "if Muhammad can't come to the mountain, then the mountain will come to Muhammad".

 

[DaBuddaDa]

If it weren't for the DD marketplaces indie games would receive way less attention and I don't know how you can deny it.

The Internet has always been an indie game DD marketplace like he said. The entire internet...not just steam. The original DOOM shareware copy was downloaded over 10 million times over 17 years ago.

 

[ZombieSupaStar]

ima buy some games on steam today just to spite some of ya'll.

 

[Sciz]

The Internet has always been an indie game DD marketplace like he said. The entire internet...not just steam. The original DOOM shareware copy was downloaded over 10 million times over 15 years ago.

DOOM was the Minecraft of its day, however. Even more so.

I personally remember the shareware market thriving on the back of retail stores that carried a big bin of diskettes at cheap prices, and that just stopped existing over time. The internet's always been moderately viable, but you always have the problem of letting people know you exist. Steam probably isn't a true necessity, but these indie devs are getting much more exposure than they would without it.

Well yeah, I learned English, French and German because I had to, but games certainly did help a lot with that. Books are a bit faster in that regard, but I don't like reading all the time. However, I don't expect anyone to do anything. Games are time wasters so you can at least learn something while playing them. We have a proverb in Polish "if Muhammad can't come to the mountain, then the mountain will come to Muhammad".

For the most part when we're talking about foreign titles, we mean Japanese, and Japanese is a hell of a language to learn compared to picking up other Romance languages.

 

[water_wendi]

As a PC gamer going back 20+ years, I spit on these words. Look, I love Steam too but really? Am I the only one old enough to remember shareware/freeware games all the damned time (you know, ones you download and install?) from, then, "indie" or small devs?

Its has apparently been decided that Steam saved PC gaming from certain doom.

 

[Kintaro]

ima buy some games on steam today just to spite some of ya'll.

I would buy some myself, but I'm saving up for the sale. You know its coming. I feel its dark energies surrounding my wallet.

 

[hamchan]

DOOM was the Minecraft of its day, however. Even more so.

I personally remember the shareware market thriving on the back of retail stores that carried a big bin of diskettes at cheap prices, and that just stopped existing over time. The internet's always been moderately viable, but you always have the problem of letting people know you exist.


For the most part when we're talking about foreign titles, we mean Japanese, and Japanese is a hell of a language to learn compared to picking up other Romance languages.

Right, exactly. DD platforms have given smaller games an easier chance to gain some marketing and mindshare.