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[AndrewDean84xX]

"We want the Elder Scrolls audience."

That's me. In oder to make me want to play another "Souls" game, I need a reason/narrative to keep going. I found the games dull. I will never understand why they decided to always have enemies respawn in the exact same spot every time. ZombiU handled this well with randomly placing enemies when you needed to back track and what not.

 

[zkylon]

Not an example of the Souls series, but of trial and error gameplay, compared to the perceived trial and error gameplay of the Souls series. Other than that, the games are quite different indeed.
As far as Limbo goes, I can understand that the game was supposed to be played by constantly dying and learning, but I don't have to like it. Cautious approach, for me, meant that I usually missed a time-sensitive action and had to die to try again.

Spoiler

Oh, and the "

ending

Spoiler

"... Felt like I had just wasted my time. Was not happy.

Well, it's more of an experience than an actual story. I guess an important part of why I "enjoyed" it was that I don't particularly like puzzle platformers, so the trial and error system just felt like part of the narrative and it just made it fun to do. It was visually disturbing, but you're supposed to be disturbed, so they basically force you to die over and over again and I thought that was kinda clever and the game was so well done on sound and visuals that I got hooked and beat it in one sitting. I never really got stuck, they weren't really puzzles or platforming sections, something more like scripted sequences ala CoD, if CoD was a puzzle platformer.

Anywho, like you said, Limbo and the Souls series, two different things entirely.

 

[Archpath1]

just add in game tome/journal of a fallen warrior that you pick up describing his discoveries "gameplay mechcanics" and such ,so it can clear up some stuff people didn't really know about

 

[YoungHav]

How much have Demon's Souls and Dark Souls sold at this point?

 

[Red Liquorice]

Kaathe is not problem to find. You just don't talk to Frampt after getting the lord vessel.

Is there anything in game up to that point that hints that this is a condition of not borking access to a covenant?

It's been so long since I joined the Darkwraiths I can't remember if there is anything that tells the player about this conditional convenant access.

 

[Jackben]

Nothing wrong with wanting to capture a wider audience ala the Elder Scrolls comment. But don't try to emulate Elder Scrolls in order to get that. Dark Souls did just fine without boring travelling mechanics, pointless fluff side-quests and awful dialogue.

Keep hack and slash WRPG fast food out of my Dark Souls, thanks.

 

[xJavonta]

I'm OK with that.

 

[Midou]

just add in game tome/journal of a fallen warrior that you pick up describing his discoveries "gameplay mechcanics" and such ,so it can clear up some stuff people didn't really know about

Game could also allow you to start with something like a 'stone of guidance' that leads you to fallen warriors with journals about their journey, that describes where to go and important mechanics.

Like I've said a few times in this thread, you can do all the things in the thread title without harming the core experience.

 

[Sir Ilpalazzo]

That's me. In oder to make me want to play another "Souls" game, I need a reason/narrative to keep going. I found the games dull. I will never understand why they decided to always have enemies respawn in the exact same spot every time. ZombiU handled this well with randomly placing enemies when you needed to back track and what not.

The Souls games are combat-focused action games, so they're always going to be balanced with specific enemy configurations. What you're asking for wouldn't work in games like these.

 

[AndrewDean84xX]

The Souls games are combat-focused action games, so they're always going to be balanced with specific enemy configurations. What you're asking for wouldn't work in games like these.

And I understand that, that's why I wont play the series anymore until they make these changes. That's just me being selfish though, lol. I WANT WHAT I WANT!

I repect this game for what it is, it's just not for me in it's current state. It's great that this game exists though.

 

[Raide]

Game could also allow you to start with something like a 'stone of guidance' that leads you to fallen warriors with journals about their journey, that describes where to go and important mechanics.

Like I've said a few times in this thread, you can do all the things in the thread title without harming the core experience.

"Got Left to be a Manly-man. Go Right is you're a blubbering wuss."

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

Game could also allow you to start with something like a 'stone of guidance' that leads you to fallen warriors with journals about their journey, that describes where to go and important mechanics.

Like I've said a few times in this thread, you can do all the things in the thread title without harming the core experience.

They put in mechanics for people to put messages of warning and advice into others' worlds, plus bloodstains so you could see what iced someone else.

It, again, is a question of effort and ego, not skill.

 

[Midou]

They put in mechanics for people to put messages of warning and advice into others' worlds, plus bloodstains so you could see what iced someone else.

It, again, is a question of effort and ego, not skill.

Messages seemed much better in Demon's Souls. Probably because it was just tied to a button.

Effort and patience more like it.

 

[astroturfing]

I will never understand why they decided to always have enemies respawn in the exact same spot every time.

because it's like Mega Man. it's a game where you can memorize everything and therefore truly master the game. i think i still remember pretty much every enemy and item location in Demon's Souls, and it made replays through levels in co-op really fun, because i could be every effective in helping the other guy(s) because i knew what was behind every corner.

i normally would like randomly spawning enemies, but not in Souls games. the invasions are random enough

 

[spekkeh]

Messages seem a lot better if you have Xbox Gold instead of Silver.

...fml :')

 

[BossLackey]

Dark Souls is amazing. However, I will admit that there are a few too many aspects of the game that are unknown unknowns, as in things we don't know we don't know. Without the help of forums and wikis, I would certainly be able to progress, but with a lot less knowledge and therefore a lot slower and less efficient. If that's all they changed and they made all game mechanics apparent, I'd be all for that.

However, and I hope I'm wrong, I don't think it's going to stop there.

 

[ponpo]

Messages seemed much better in Demon's Souls. Probably because it was just tied to a button.

Effort and patience more like it.

And because of the "I want to be resurrected..." messages written on dead horses in Boletaria with like 1500 + ratings.

 

[Field]

Please don't ruin this series.

 

[Sulik2]

I will play one of the games in this series seriously when they fix the camera and the animation locks. I hope that is what they mean by accessibility.

 

[140.85]

Almost everything is weak to fire in the game, lol.

 

[Amir0x]

Agreed, however, I think that Dark Souls had a few more sections where your deaths aren't exactly your fault, at least in comparison with Demon's Souls. Just to be clear, most of the game isn't like that and you can easily say that both games are fair.

In other words this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r86NLwCYXfk
Isn't what you should expect from a Souls game. (And sadly, many think it is)

Oh sure, that's why I said "almost always." The game is large enough that a few bosses a tiny tiny few little trap moments might fall into the "trial-and-error" classification area, but it's so comparatively slim to the moments that aren't trial-and-error that it's hardly noticeable by the end. At least to me.

And nice video lol, never saw that before.

That's exactly why I really disliked Limbo.
In Souls you usually can see what's coming by examining the clues in the environment and by manipulating the camera. For example, you see Asylum Demon through a hole in the wall even before opening the doors. That hole is there to show you that a monster is ahead.

Yeah, there are tons of moments like that. When I replay the Dark Souls/Demon Souls game it (to me) really shows the advanced level the From team is playing at when it comes to world/level design... it usually feels like every inch of the game is designed with such intricate care that is very rarely seen in other game franchises.

God I am really anticipating Dark Souls II, I so hope that the talk of being "understandable" and "straightforward" (this is the word that scares me, my mind wants to translate it as 'linear' as it applies to game design... go away, cynical side!) is just relating to the perimeter of the game, just like better item descriptions or something and not easier gameplay.

Well, Limbo (I personally loved the game) pretty much used trial and error as a narration technique to transport the player into the purgatory in which the boy's in. You're basically gruesomely killed and forced to go into scary and horrible places (and that spider) over and over again because you're in purgatory and are being punished, just like the boy is, and if you die, you just get to try again.

I thought it was pretty good use of mechanics and narrative...

Yeah, I got what they were going for on an abstract level, but for me the game story didn't really even strike me as particularly memorable and anyway I play titles for gameplay, since quality game stories only appear in like 0.3% of all videogames (I think I might even be overestimating this stat).

Limbo had a perfectly fine foundation for gameplay, and there were some good moments, but overall it's not my flavor. Too much trial-and-error and player manipulation, not enough straight-up skill requirement. I think a Limbo sequel, if there ever was one, could make it into something I enjoy, but it's not there yet.

 

[zkylon]

Yeah, I got what they were going for on an abstract level, but for me the game story didn't really even strike me as particularly memorable and anyway I play titles for gameplay, since quality game stories only appear in like 0.3% of all videogames (I think I might even be overestimating this stat).

Limbo had a perfectly fine foundation for gameplay, and there were some good moments, but overall it's not my flavor. Too much trial-and-error and player manipulation, not enough straight-up skill requirement. I think a Limbo sequel, if there ever was one, could make it into something I enjoy, but it's not there yet.

That's a perfectly valid opinion, I just want to note that "I play titles for gameplay" is kind of a misconception, in the way that you're posing it as a binary thing that you have to choose between gameplay/story and also as if those two elements were completely divorced from each other.

I think it's completely the other way around, gameplay and story are always merged together, the thing is that that mix can play against or for one or the other. Say, in GTA IV, Niko's all apologetic during cutscenes about being a good for nothing thug, but the moment he steps outside a cutscene and you gain control of him you turn him into a mass murdering maniac. In other cases like Dark Souls, story and gameplay both compliment each other really well and end up elevating the game to a greater degree that if they were both individually good.

I guess my point is that thinking you play games for one or the other is kinda kidding yourself, specially when you talk about games that really matter to you (I can get if you play a sports game just to kick a ball around, although there's an entire narrative going around the matches), because in the end if one's bad you're gonna feel it.

 

[Amir0x]

That's a perfectly valid opinion, I just want to note that "I play titles for gameplay" is kind of a misconception, in the way that you're posing it as a binary thing that you have to choose between gameplay/story and also as if those two elements were completely divorced from each other.

I do believe they're really pretty well divorced from each other in the sense that any time I'm watching a story and not playing, it's not gameplay. Plus, I also believe that frequently narrative tends to distract and ruin gameplay moments by cutting gameplay into pieces with poor pacing, or constantly taking the player out of the experience.

Limbo isn't like that though, thankfully.

I think it's completely the other way around, gameplay and story are always merged together, the thing is that that mix can play against or for one or the other. Say, in GTA IV, Niko's all apologetic during cutscenes about being a good for nothing thug, but the moment he steps outside a cutscene and you gain control of him you turn him into a mass murdering maniac. In other cases like Dark Souls, story and gameplay both compliment each other really well and end up elevating the game to a greater degree that if they were both individually good.

Compliment each other, but not being interconnected. The very very very few games that do story even decently well either have foresaked the high quality gameplay in favor of just telling the player a compelling story (say, The Walking Dead or Planescape Torment) or simply have the story at a distance, never stopping your progress (so all story scenes happen during gameplay, so you can ignore it or pay as much attention as you desire).

But remember my philosophy: I only think 0.3% of games do stories well, and the rest of the 99.7% of the time it's just done really poorly or distractingly. So, I always view gameplay and story as one that has been perpetually at odds with one another, either side struggling to gain dominance over the other, and the few games that do story well either come up short in the gameplay category or just put it in the background so that it never stops the gameplay at all.

I guess my point is that thinking you play games for one or the other is kinda kidding yourself, specially when you talk about games that really matter to you (I can get if you play a sports game just to kick a ball around, although there's an entire narrative going around the matches), because in the end if one's bad you're gonna feel it.

I guess you're just not familiar with my point of view on the subject, is all. Not that you should be or anything, I'm just some dude. But I always always go into videogames hoping I can ignore whatever painful sub-fanfiction level work is in them

 

[onimushroom]

Yeah, there are tons of moments like that. When I replay the Dark Souls/Demon Souls game it (to me) really shows the advanced level the From team is playing at when it comes to world/level design... it usually feels like every inch of the game is designed with such intricate care that is very rarely seen in other game franchises.

God I am really anticipating Dark Souls II, I so hope that the talk of being "understandable" and "straightforward" (this is the word that scares me, my mind wants to translate it as 'linear' as it applies to game design... go away, cynical side!) is just relating to the perimeter of the game, just like better item descriptions or something and not easier gameplay.

The reason I'm looking forward to DS2 the most is to experience those kind of moments. Sad to say that I was not able to do that with previous Souls, as I didn't understand the games well enough. Now that I have played through them, and watched countless hours of others' playthroughs, I feel I'm ready to experience the new one on my own and will try my hardest to resist watching too many previews leading up to the launch.

 

[NBtoaster]

How much have Demon's Souls and Dark Souls sold at this point?

Dark Souls was 1.1m earlier this year outside of Japan, and the first two weeks in japan were over 300k.

That was before the PC and Prepare to Die edition.

 

[Clevinger]

Kaathe is not problem to find. You just don't talk to Frampt after getting the lord vessel.

So all a new player has to do is happen to not go back and talk to the guy who told you to go get the lordvessel? After this big event that he's been guiding you to for a quarter or more of the game? How many new players, without a wiki or without a hint from a forum, found that on his own? 10% maybe? I mean on their first playthrough. I'm guessing players were much more likely to find it on their second playthrough while fucking around.

Unless there is a hint in dialogue or something. Like, say, if the crestfallen warrior and/or others told you to not trust Frampt and he knows/wonders if there's another serpent out there somewhere. "I wouldn't trust him with that thing you're carrying." Or something. It would be vague but at least it would be something.

I mean, people keep posting that "Two kinds of players" pic and I agree completely. But I don't see why Kaathe should be any different than one of those traps. You walk into a room and if you're careful you see a floor plate raised. You see the place where it shoots arrows. Those are huge hints out in the open that might be obvious if you're careful, but will be missed if you're not. Kaathe isn't like that. He'd be an invisible trap that you only didn't activate if you happened to avoid one nondescript tile.


Now, things like the dragon sword? I'm fine with that. It's a hugely powerful weapon and it's a huge secret. But Kaathe is truly important to the game. Not only does he lead a covenant, but he basically tells you the real plot of the game. He shouldn't be something only 10% (yes I'm pulling that stat out of my ass) of new players are able to find.

 

[Clear]

Dark Souls can easily be broken in the first hour. As the video shows, not even 10 minutes is needed to violate the entire game.

You can't ever really "break" DS because of the relative strength of standard enemies' attacks. All it takes is a moment or two of lost concentration and you are dead, that's the beauty of its design.

The game intentionally doesn't make it hard to become powerful, because it establishes from the get-go that maintaining concentration in combat and awareness of the surroundings is what its all about really.

The Souls games aren't that difficult, they are simply unusually unforgiving of player error for a modern title.

 

[Amir0x]

The reason I'm looking forward to DS2 the most is to experience those kind of moments. Sad to say that I was not able to do that with previous Souls, as I didn't understand the games well enough. Now that I have played through them, and watched countless hours of others' playthroughs, I feel I'm ready to experience the new one on my own and will try my hardest to resist watching too many previews leading up to the launch.

I hope it hits the right balance for you and is a bit more understandable, then, so you can enjoy it without the need to constantly search for answers.

I think the best solution would be to have the game ask you right at the start if you want tutorial notifications and whatnot, and then it'd satisfy both sides of the party pretty well. But whatever the case, Demon Souls and Dark Souls were great, so at this point I am going to give them some time to show what they mean before getting pessimistic. They've earned that.

 

[Midou]

I'm glad Demon's Souls is more 'direct', 'straightforward' and 'understandable' than King's Field IV. Yeesh. Why does it take 3 seconds (no exaggeration) to turn around when enemies jump around like jack rabbits?

Thought I could play them while I waited for Dark Souls II, but sporadic save points and clunky combat make it hard to keep going. I love the exploration aspect though, kind of hope they can do something closer to KF in future titles, while keeping Demon's/Dark Souls combat and third person-ness.

 

[onimushroom]

I hope it hits the right balance for you and is a bit more understandable, then, so you can enjoy it without the need to constantly search for answers.

I think the best solution would be to have the game ask you right at the start if you want tutorial notifications and whatnot, and then it'd satisfy both sides of the party pretty well. But whatever the case, Demon Souls and Dark Souls were great, so at this point I am going to give them some time to show what they mean before getting pessimistic. They've earned that.

Oh, don't get me wrong. I don't want anything to change. No tutorials necessary. The wiki-reading was fun. Though I think now, after two Souls games, I can get the most out of a new one. I know to look for the hints, read descriptions etc. (I'm just sad that I can't ever experience the first ones that way. Which is totally my own fault.)

 

[jimi_dini]

So all a new player has to do is happen to not go back and talk to the guy who told you to go get the lordvessel?

On my first playthrough I did exactly that. Not talk to him. I mean talk to him once (and that's not even mandatory at least afaik) and that was it. Because I had all sorts of stuff in my mind. That's the beauty of having no stupid quest log and also no "active quest".

After this big event that he's been guiding you to for a quarter or more of the game?

He didn't guide me. I went to Sen's Fortress, because the gates opened. I saw that. I remembered where it was. I didn't need help for that. And I then continued down that path. Got to the "amazing chest".

10% maybe? I mean on their first playthrough. I'm guessing players were much more likely to find it on their second playthrough while fucking around.

So? Even if that is the case and I doubt that. Where is the problem?
There is so much stuff in Dark Souls, noone will figure out everything on the first playthrough. And that's a good thing. Even in hand-holding games like Fallout 3+NV, noone will be able to do that.

Think about that - someone plays through it 3 times and THEN figured out that there was another character, which changed a huge part of the game, that the player missed the 2 times before that. I would call that awesome. Dark Souls is not meant to be only played once. Let's assume a player really does this. But then the player plays through Dark Souls again. Sooner or later he will skip Frampt and instead directly beat

Spoiler

the four kings

. That's quite plausible, because that boss fight is mandatory. Voila - mind blown.

"I wouldn't trust him with that thing you're carrying." Or something. It would be vague but at least it would be something.

I personally didn't trust him at all. I figured that he was way too nice for the game. A character helping the player without the player having helped him at all? Must be a trap of some sort. I doubt that I was the only one thinking that. That's also why I didn't went back.

But Kaathe is truly important to the game. Not only does he lead a covenant, but he basically tells you the real plot of the game. He shouldn't be something only 10% (yes I'm pulling that stat out of my ass) of new players are able to find.

There are also other covenants that you can easily block yourself out of. So?
Maybe 1% of the players heard the dialogue of

Spoiler

Daughter of Chaos

w/o using youtube. Even including youtube, there can't be many players that did. And knowing this makes it even more special. The item required is only available via Snuggly or as starting gift. So you are either lucky or figured out that you could go back to

Spoiler

the tutorial stage

that also includes a

Spoiler

boss fight

, which quite a few surely missed and then dropped a random item to get the required one.

I mean think about that - some players may have

Spoiler

slaughtered Quelaag

50 times and then manage to hear the hidden dialogue. That's what makes Dark Souls so special. All those hidden things that are not obvious to get.

 

[charsace]

That's me. In oder to make me want to play another "Souls" game, I need a reason/narrative to keep going. I found the games dull. I will never understand why they decided to always have enemies respawn in the exact same spot every time. ZombiU handled this well with randomly placing enemies when you needed to back track and what not.

Dark Souls is a tightly design game that awards players who pay attention. Randomizing enemy positions would not fit with either.

 

[Castor Krieg]

Dark Souls is amazing. However, I will admit that there are a few too many aspects of the game that are unknown unknowns, as in things we don't know we don't know. Without the help of forums and wikis, I would certainly be able to progress, but with a lot less knowledge and therefore a lot slower and less efficient.

Isn't it the best part? How you need to slowly put together the puzzle and the game's lore?

Don't make it Elder Scrolls, I have Skyrim for that.

 

[Teletraan1]

All I would want is an in game glossary that properly explains the game play systems and a Journal that lets you see what people said to you in conversations. And make the language of the conversations clear and concise with an obvious goal. Otherwise keep the game play, exploration and just about everything else the same.

The first time I played the game I had no idea what the fuck anything did or what I was supposed to do. What is Humanity for? What is Kindling? Nothing is really explained properly. You go through all the effort to create a world with its own terminology and you do a shit job of explaining what that terminology means or how it applies to the world. Its like in Harry Potter if they used the words Muggle or Horcrux for the entire series but failed to tell you what that means and forced you to go to a Harry Potter Wiki to figure it out.

 

[AlphaDragoon]

Dark Souls can easily be broken in the first hour. As the video shows, not even 10 minutes is needed to violate the entire game.

Yeah, it's so easy to bust this game's difficulty wide open right at the beginning. Great Scythe, Gravelord Sword, Murakumo, Iaito/Uchigatana, Zweihander, Lucerne and Crescent Axe are all endgame viable weapons and all ridiculously easy to obtain once you know how.

In the case of Crescent Axe it's even easier because it uses Twinkling Titanite and can be +5'd to god mode right out of the gate. Kill the single lizards in Undead Burg and Darkroot Basin, the pair right at the beginning of the Catacombs and one from the Great Hollow and you have all you need.

I don't even think about the game as "hard" anymore. I just think of which weapon I want to try and make a new build around next.

 

[DarknessTear]

Demon's Souls and Dark Souls were amazing experiences. I can't really imagine them being dumbed down. And sure, the games were breakable but to be honest you had to know where that shit was. I don't really want this game to get the Dead Space 3 treatment. If they want to make it more accessible, I guess the first step would be to allow microphones, though. Meh.

 

[Castor Krieg]

Yeah, it's so easy to bust this game's difficulty wide open right at the beginning. Great Scythe, Gravelord Sword, Murakumo, Iaito/Uchigatana, Zweihander, Lucerne and Crescent Axe are all endgame viable weapons and all ridiculously easy to obtain once you know how.

In the case of Crescent Axe it's even easier because it uses Twinkling Titanite and can be +5'd to god mode right out of the gate. Kill the single lizards in Undead Burg and Darkroot Basin, the pair right at the beginning of the Catacombs and one from the Great Hollow and you have all you need.

This is the beauty of the game - most games will not allow you to do that: "guided developer experience" means you are supposed to be at a certain level during a certain portion of the story. No earlier and not later. It's great From allowed the game to be so exploitable once you know how.

 

[Risette]

I play titles for gameplay

I think everybody else does too

There's not much choice really

 

[koryuken]

Please lord, don't let the devs ruin DSII

 

[ponpo]

Please lord, don't let the devs ruin DSII

Man all of the posts like this read like bandwagon disappointment.

Don't worry, I'm sure Namco will still emphasize HARD GAME YOU'RE GOING TO DIE A BUNCH in their marketing.

 

[Arjen]

Isn't it the best part? How you need to slowly put together the puzzle and the game's lore?

Don't make it Elder Scrolls, I have Skyrim for that.

Not calling you out specific, but why is the opposite of Dark Souls story telling and Lore Skyrim?
Skyrim has no cutscenes and the lore is told mostly trough books, just like Dark Souls does with item descriptions.
Take the lighthouse quest in Skyrim for example, a great way of stroytelling trough the diaries scattered troughout the place.

 

[Eusis]

The real opposite is probably most Bioware RPGs. Loads of talking/exposition, and everything you find out is neatly organized in the in-game encyclopedia rather than pieced together from diaries or item descriptions.

 

[Vaporak]

The first time I played the game I had no idea what the fuck anything did or what I was supposed to do. What is Humanity for? What is Kindling? Nothing is really explained properly. You go through all the effort to create a world with its own terminology and you do a shit job of explaining what that terminology means or how it applies to the world. Its like in Harry Potter if they used the words Muggle or Horcrux for the entire series but failed to tell you what that means and forced you to go to a Harry Potter Wiki to figure it out.

Or, get this, you experiment in game and get the gratification of figuring it all out yourself. That's what I did. I saw the kindle option, tried it, and it said I couldn't while hollowed. So I used the reverse hollowing option, and tried again. But kindling doesn't work without humanity. Boom, now I know what humanity is for. Use one in my inventory, and see the number in the top left go up 1. Go to kindle and see that now I have more estus. This really isn't obtuse at all. Especially since the game manual mentions all this.

 

[zkylon]

Not calling you out specific, but why is the opposite of Dark Souls story telling and Lore Skyrim?
Skyrim has no cutscenes and the lore is told mostly trough books, just like Dark Souls does with item descriptions.
Take the lighthouse quest in Skyrim for example, a great way of stroytelling trough the diaries scattered troughout the place.

Might not be the exact opposite but for one Bethesda's pretty much standardized quest markers in RPGs.

Or, get this, you experiment in game and get the gratification of figuring it all out yourself. That's what I did. I saw the kindle option, tried it, and it said I couldn't while hollowed. So I used the reverse hollowing option, and tried again. But kindling doesn't work without humanity. Boom, now I know what humanity is for. Use one in my inventory, and see the number in the top left go up 1. Go to kindle and see that now I have more estus. This really isn't obtuse at all. Especially since the game manual mentions all this.

Yup, people that haven't learned the basics just don't have the bare minimum of patience the game demands of you. The obtuse parts like the benefits of Covenants, upgrade trees and whatnot are usually semi-optional, so whoever's complaining about the game not explaining himself is just not trying hard enough (which isn't really hard, really).

The big problem with easing up the game is that it's not expanding the audience that appreciates the game, it's changing the game so it's acceptable by that audience. If you want to play Dark Souls but need everything to be explained to you then you don't want to play Dark Souls, because that's a big part of what the game is.

 

[Arjen]

Might not be the exact opposite but for one Bethesda's pretty much standardized quest markers in RPGs.

Alright, quest markers are a fair point.
But Skyrim is filled with small stories and lore which are amazing and i think most players won't even find. It's a more streamlined RPG, sure, but it's still filled with amazing stuff to discover that the game demands you to find on your own just like Dark Souls.

 

[Jack_AG]

I don't understand how a game can be more accessible than: circle-strafe, backstab.

Maybe in terms of lore, light/dark/covenant convolution, sure. The game is fun but combat is marred by junk enemy AI and limited attack patterns.

I wouldn't mind opening up a few secrets if nothing more than direction. You shouldn't need a Wiki to get the most out of a game but you shouldn't hand everything over, either.

They need to flesh out the enemy AI and combat moves a LOT and open up weapon movesets just a tad... not much, for the player.

After beating Demon's 3 times and Dark twice... I do feel the games are based mostly off of a trial/error and not player intuition or proactiveness. Im not talking about combat or difficulty, rather, lore, covenants, etc.

I'd rather a game test my intellect instead of my patience. Great games with rather easy combat save for a few bosses and utterly convoluted lore systems.

Here's hoping bosses stay the same speed, combat becomes more fleshed out and harder and lore systems require thinking and not trial and error menial tasks.

 

[Visualante2]

fun facts about Edge GAF threads
#229 (Witcher 2 review) - 359 replies
#208 (New Super Mario Bros. Wii review) - 446 replies
#236 (Awards 2011) - 501 replies
#181 (Halo 3 review) - 623 replies
#209 (Bayonetta review) - 766 replies
#213 (Final Fantasy XIII review) - 905 replies
#199 (MSG4 review) - 965 replies
#190 (Killzone 2 review) - 1182 replies before locked
#249 (Dark Souls II exclusive) - 1248 replies before the meat is even out.

 

[Visualante2]

Posted some excerpts. Good covers are back, subscribers get a special black concept art cover.

 

[Zia]

Interesting that they didn't have separate "best big" and "small" game of the year categories like last year.

Thanks for posting the info!

 

[Phonomezer]

fun facts about Edge GAF threads
#229 (Witcher 2 review) - 359 replies
#208 (New Super Mario Bros. Wii review) - 446 replies
#236 (Awards 2011) - 501 replies
#181 (Halo 3 review) - 623 replies
#209 (Bayonetta review) - 766 replies
#213 (Final Fantasy XIII review) - 905 replies
#199 (MSG4 review) - 965 replies
#190 (Killzone 2 review) - 1182 replies before locked
#249 (Dark Souls II exclusive) - 1248 replies before the meat is even out.

That's because half the fun of Dark Souls is talking about Dark Souls