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Edge #305/May - Rime (Also Persona 5 review)

Quasar

Member
youre_serious_futurama.gif


If exclusivity plays an important role on whatever you should buy a game or not, you've got questionable tastes.
!

I think, for me anyway, Sony bailing and cutting them loose as well as its super delayed nature was just a really bad sign. So it was that much more than exclusivity itself that made me lose interest.

But maybe it will magically turn out alright after all
 

LordKano

Member
I think enthusiasts make a bigger issue out of portability than critical press ever does, but I haven't played enough of the game to speak the other potential (I guess?) issues you mention.

Honestly, I just get a general sense of defeatism in terms of how fans of these games expect them to review; This everlasting fear that critics don't/won't "get it". I kind of understood it before, but we're experiencing a bit of a rennaisssnce this year for Japanese games and JRPGs in particular. I think this is gonna do really well.

And again, the context really is important. If P4G has a 94, but this has a 92 with 30 more reviews, what's the difference at that point? I'll be honest, I think it's silly to even care about scores and averages this much, but if you're going to do that, you may as well appreciate the mechanics at play and yeah, the actual environment the game is being reviewed in.

Edit: Just to note, Atlus games in general are very long but not typically knocked for pacing in reviews.

Haha, personally I don't really care about reviews, I tend to buy a game based on my guts only, so whether it gets 78 or 98 on Metacritic, I know I'll end up buying it. Even more so since I'm a Persona fan. I was simply tempering people who expects the new Zelda in terms of praises and recognition. It's too different and niche for everyone to agree on it. The same could be said for many japanese games, actually.

Well this is interesting:

Let's look at the 7 P4 on the PS2 got:
"We hope Atlus takes its time to deliver a more compelling and intelligent game with the next Persona, as the series has some remarkable potential. [Jan 2009, p.126]" -GamesTM

The very same publication gave P4G a 9:
"Broadly speaking, this is the same game we've played before on PS2, but the addition of fresh personae and social links, and the sheer range of activities available at any one time did much to dissipate our expected fatigue."

Play UK gave P4 on PS2 a 6.8:
"As a swan song to the PS2 Persona 4 isn’t the highest note and all the bizarre characters, storylines and Personas you unlock can’t change that. But if you don’t mind grinding too much then there is some enjoyment to be had."

They also gave P4G a higher score:
"One of the best RPGs around, with great characterisation, a gripping story and smart combat mechanics that greatly improve on the formula found in past Persona games." 9,4/10

And what were the improvements? Better pacing, a new social link and a few new personae. I don't see a mention about the game being better because it's on a handheld, P4 was a console game to start with and was praised there as well. Perhaps there were different reviewers involved but a "better P4G" what the Consensus seems to be by people who have played both, might result in higher scores than P4G.

To be honest, I don't think P4G changed the game that much to warrant better scores. Sure, it's a better version (and portable in top of that, the best way to play any Atlus game) but the core games stays the same. So I'm kinda puzzled at why an outlet would give two more points to a game that stays essentially the same. So I'll assume these are different reviewers, or their opinons about the game changed in the meantime.

Yeah, the portability thing is really something I just never hear outside of GAF or from people I don't know from GAF/similar communities. People will generally play a fun, well-paced game on whatever hardware they have to run it.

Maybe it's just me (but I know a lot of people share my feeling about that), but I have a way harder time to stomach a long-ass JRPG on TV than in portable mode. To give a recent example, Dragon Quest VII on 3DS was the first time I actually beat the game, despite my several attempts at beating the original PS1 game. It's simply less bothering to have long grinding/dungeon phases when you're playing in a handled, supposedly on your bed or while doing something else.

Even with suspend/resume being an option on the PS4? Or do you mean something else?

I mean more about the fact that you can just turn on your console, blaze through a small dungeon/quest (Persona is even more suited to that) and turn it off. Play the game by small sessions is something more akin to handled systems and make a long, repetitive JRPG easier to digest.
 

Nightbird

Member
I think, for me anyway, Sony bailing and cutting them loose as well as its super delayed nature was just a really bad sign. So it was that much more than exclusivity itself that made me lose interest.

But maybe it will magically turn out alright after all

We will see.

I can see the troubled development being why Sony pulled out (and after No Man's Sky i can't really fault them for that), but i'd say the game is looking pretty good right now, so we shouldn't write if off too early.
 

Blobbers

Member
I'd be interested in knowing what games those are.

It's not objective but Final Fantasy XII HD will have the Zodiac Job System + the license board which is one of the main reasons it has a big dedicated fanbase on the internet, and it will probably score lower than the vanilla FF XII (92) which only had the regular license board. But maybe it wont, who knows
 
Who are these people you keep talking about? Die hard fans? Wouldnt they know scores are lower in general these days? Casual fans? Do they care? Sounds to me like you're the one who's going to be massively dissapointed if it scores lower than P4G.

The majority of the people who will compare it to P4G and be disappointed will be fans of the series who want something even better and don't take into account how the number of reviews and shifting preferences may impact the score.

Regardless of how silly it is, there will be people who view it that way, I wasn't defending that point of view so much as I was saying that it will happen regardless.
 

Squire

Banned
So far it seems better than P4 in ways that people wanted. But I agree with whoever said earlier that a lot of it is just going to come down to taste rather than being this huge jump in quality.

Like, the tone of P5 is much less idyllic than P4, but still not somber like P3 either. Feels very grounded. The other two are still great, you just have something new to pick from. And that's just one example.
 
Going to say it too: an 8/10 from Edge is a great score, they have seriously high standards. The only thing that needs to be asked is why For Honor got that score too considering the plenthora of technical issues at launch, seems rather atypical for them.

Really need to subscribe to them again, Edge is pretty much The Times Magazine of video game outlets, both in writing, design and quality.
 

N7.Angel

Member
What exclusivity did persona 5 lose exactly? I don't get this post that is quoted on every page of this thread at all. Is it because it's no longer a PS3 exclusive and is also coming to PS4? If anything that would be a big plus instead of a reason to not play the game?

Or did I miss something and P5 is coming to steam? o_O (but then again, why would that be a reason to not play the game?!)

Or perhaps the poster meant it's the first Persona that opens up to the masses by being released on:

a.) a plattform that is in it's prime and not almost dead(like PS2 with P4G) or
b.) a niche Handheld like the Vita.

I don't know, I was talking about Rime...
 

Anoxida

Member
P5's innovations on P4 are miles more than P4's innovations on P3. Yes, the most major innovation is in the dungeons, but the dungeons haven't just gone from being abysmal to being serviceable -- they've gone to being outstanding and are legitimately the best designed dungeons I've played in a JRPG in the last decade at least. The dungeons are also far from a small aspect of the game, so to imply that the overhaul they get makes minimal difference is silly; the game's story revolves around these dungeons, and the story unfolds within them just as much as it does outside them. You're not going to be rushing through them to make it to the next piece of story content, and you're going to be spending a shit tonne of time in them in general, much more than in P3 or P4.
The day-to-day formula is made a lot less blatant in P5 too due to having unique story content on almost every day, and the story pacing never leaves you in a lull like the other games so often did. Despite this being the longest Persona game in the series, it feels far less padded and the pacing of the story is perfect.

I feel you dude. But in the end reviewers look at games differently than us. They gotta ask themselves how much shit has changed since p4. And while they've improved on basically everything, the formula is about the same. There's no ME -> ME2 kind of evolution here. And some will use that reason to lower the score. Edge already did.
 

MTC100

Banned
I'm pretty sure that comment was in regards to Rime, and a lot of people in the thread took it entirely the wrong way. I believe the poster's point was that they're less interested in the game because they're assuming it's not very good if Sony was willing to drop the exclusivity deal (if that is indeed what happened). The troubled development was a cause for concern, certainly.

Oh, I see, this makes no real sense, the PS4 Version of Rime will still be a great though. -But it's rather strange for Sony to drop the exclusivity on the title(which also means they aren't publishing it anymore I guess) but I guess they simply don't need the game to be exclusive anymore with their big install base and all...
 

MTC100

Banned
So I'm kinda puzzled at why an outlet would give two more points to a game that stays essentially the same. So I'll assume these are different reviewers, or their opinons about the game changed in the meantime.

Might be the case, might not be the case, one would have to find a scan of both reviews to check I guess. The second review is talking about P4 as the game "we've played already", so chances are it might even be the same reviewer. I've played both and must say the changes made to P4G were indeed very good and helped the game a lot, would I warrant it 2 whole points of a better score? Probably not, but I wouldn't have given the ps2 version a 7 or lower in the first place ^^

edit: sorry for double posting
 
Their TW2:AoK score is so low that I dismiss everything else, sorry. Nier, Witcher 3, and Snipperclips having the same rating means I'm not listening to the explanation.
 
Their TW2:AoK score is so low that I dismiss everything else, sorry. Nier, Witcher 3, and Snipperclips having the same rating means I'm not listening to the explanation.
Well, Snipperclips is a vastly different game that aims to achieve vastly different things, so the score is understandable (they rate it by what it is and what the game wants to achieve).

Otherwise you'd never be able to give e.g. arcade games a high score because they couldn't compete with games like the Witcher 3 in a lot of aspects. But as not what they're trying to do...
 
Going to say it too: an 8/10 from Edge is a great score, they have seriously high standards. The only thing that needs to be asked is why For Honor got that score too considering the plenthora of technical issues at launch, seems rather atypical for them.

Really need to subscribe to them again, Edge is pretty much The Times Magazine of video game outlets, both in writing, design and quality.
Is time magazine actually quality, though?
 
Who gets the cover? Rime?

P.S.: I also think that a 4 for Ghost Recon is a joke. It's a really fun, entertaining game with some small flaws but many great points. I know that showing a society dominated by a drug cartel is a sensitive topic because it's something really sad and many people in real world is suffering it, but it's a fictional work. But just like thousands of other movies or games where torture, theft, kidnapping, massive amount of people being killed and other bad stuff is involved. But hey, it's Ubisoft and not Rockstar or something else so let's give them a bad score.

People need to stop tearing themselves up over a single subjective review.

Tom Clancy's Ghost Recon: Wildlands [4]

Ahahaha, wow, that's harsh. It's uninspired but it's not exactly a terribly made game. I wonder what could've caused this low score.

lmao did you even read their Ghost Recon Wildlands review for their reasoning before calling it a joke? Just because you had a more enjoyable experience doesn't mean you can dismiss another one's take.

- "narrow and repetitive set of activities"
- "Once you've cleared out a couple of zones you may as well have cleared out all of them, and yet you'll have dozens still to go."
- "Vehicles are a bigger problem: handling is stiff for both cars and aircraft, although the latter suffer more, and vehicular physics - particularly if you go off-road - are all over the place."
- "Worse is the AI, which is simply too inconsistent to support the kind of shadowy tactical play with which Ghost Recon has always been associated.
- [Sync Shot] "Yet this too is an act of smoke and mirrors, with the logic governing your AI-controlled squadmates massaged to the point of shapelessness. Your crew are invisible to the enemy even while standing right in front of them, regularly teleport into position, and will happily line up impossible shots." (source video: Giantbomb)
- "Tooting around from mission to mission is passably enjoyable, but it's also fundamentally repetitive and the thrill of success if quickly exhausted. Instafail stealth sections, and missions with critical VIPs and vehicles, are a poor fit, too, dampening enthusiasm with regular game-over screens."
- ..."despite Wildlands' eagerness for you to head online, public matchmaking is a crapshoot."
- Wildlands succeeds only where success is a matter of spreading a big enough budget over a large enough area. It is vast, its landscapes are gorgeous, its weapon-customisation system is extensive, and it provides an endless list of things to do. Yet in the areas money can't buy, it stumbles; its driving model, AI, and repetitive mission structure all cry out for more elegant design, and combine to leave Wildlands in the strange position of looking expensive but feeling cheap."
- "Its blithely misjudged tone and directionless structure suggests design on autopilot, and empty bigness is no longer enough to carry an open-world game on its own. The game's premise may come straight from Trump's paranoid playbook, but its hollow extravagance is arguably the more damaging point of comparison."

The Post Script is particularly scathing, as Wildlands doesn't come as ironic or self-aware and is all too self-serious. The tone is a misfire.
"This would require the Ghosts themselves to be the butt of the joke, however - a joke that Team America already told, more effectively, 13 years ago - and Wildlands isn't willing to go that far. Instead, the attempt is made to present you and your squadmates as darkly funny. Party banter includes back-slapping digressions on topics like preferred torture methods, funny things about corpses, and wistfully remembered war crimes."
"To be fair to Wildlands, it's far from the first game to turn atrocity into entertainment. Yet it is so openly callous about its competing urges that it unintentionally shines a light on the issue. Its tastelessness should amount to a form of public service: Ubisoft went there, so now no other studio needs to."
 
Well this is interesting:

Let's look at the 7 P4 on the PS2 got:
"We hope Atlus takes its time to deliver a more compelling and intelligent game with the next Persona, as the series has some remarkable potential. [Jan 2009, p.126]" -GamesTM

The very same publication gave P4G a 9:
"Broadly speaking, this is the same game we've played before on PS2, but the addition of fresh personae and social links, and the sheer range of activities available at any one time did much to dissipate our expected fatigue."

Play UK gave P4 on PS2 a 6.8:
"As a swan song to the PS2 Persona 4 isn't the highest note and all the bizarre characters, storylines and Personas you unlock can't change that. But if you don't mind grinding too much then there is some enjoyment to be had."

They also gave P4G a higher score:
"One of the best RPGs around, with great characterisation, a gripping story and smart combat mechanics that greatly improve on the formula found in past Persona games." 9,4/10

And what were the improvements? Better pacing, a new social link and a few new personae. I don't see a mention about the game being better because it's on a handheld, P4 was a console game to start with and was praised there as well. Perhaps there were different reviewers involved but a "better P4G" what the Consensus seems to be by people who have played both, might result in higher scores than P4G.

Frankly, I find your stance on reviews bizarre and detached from reality. You have not played the game, yet you try to prove that P5 can't possibly score lower than 4 because of science. Just relax. The game's been out for a while, people generally liked it even after the honey moon phase and let's face it - it is a little niche. 8/10 for a game is generally really good when it comes to EDGE Magazine. Yakuza 0, Witcher 3, Baldur's Gate 2 and many other good games got that exact grade. It's good and many of the people who are anticipating the game will certainly enjoy it, so what is this fuss about? P3 and 4 are among my favourite video games ever and I'm delighted to see the EDGE reviewer liked P5 too.
 

Squire

Banned
Yeah, Wildlands seems like the very worst of milquetoast AAA design. Happy to see that shit raked over the coals, tbh
 

djtiesto

is beloved, despite what anyone might say
Generally, when it comes to Edge reviews I add a score to Japanese games and decrease a score for British games and then they tend to be pretty accurate.

A 4 for Ghost Recon? Someone check up on Crossing Eden...
 
Generally, when it comes to Edge reviews I add a score to Japanese games and decrease a score for British games and then they tend to be pretty accurate.

A 4 for Ghost Recon? Someone check up on Crossing Eden...

I agree that Bloodborne and Breath of the Wild should've gotten eleven out of ten, yes. ;)
 

Felensis

Banned
So I've stumbled upon this words from Rime's Creative Director Raul Rubio in the Rime article:

Even so, If I had read Neogaf at the time the game probably wouldn't exist. I spent some time six months ago going through two-and-a-half years of comments on Neogaf, and I was literally crying for two days. Partly because I just don't understand the cruelty, but more importantly because I could see those years over those two days, and I began to understand that maybe people can love something so much that they can hate it.

So can someone enlighten me what exactly he is referring to? Was/is GAF really that harsh and cruel just because a desired game wasn't released on time? If so how in the world is that even justified? I mean, come on. At the end of the day we're talking about entertainment products. GAMES. This shouldn't justify to be cruel and make people cry.

If true that is really cruel, disgusting and makes me somehow feel ashamed to be a member of GAF... :/
 

Ahasverus

Member
So I've stumbled upon this words from Rime's Creative Director Raul Rubio in the Rime article:

So can someone enlighten me what exactly he is referring to? Was/is GAF really that harsh and cruel just because a desired game wasn't released on time? If so how in the world is that even justified? I mean, come on. At the end of the day we're talking about entertainment products. GAMES. This shouldn't justify to be cruel and make people cry.

If true that is really cruel, disgusting and makes me somehow feel ashamed to be a member of GAF... :/

GAF called them scammers and con artists. Sometimes we do have zero tact. This is probably thread worthy BTW.
 

Ridley327

Member
So I've stumbled upon this words from Rime's Creative Director Raul Rubio in the Rime article:



So can someone enlighten me what exactly he is referring to? Was/is GAF really that harsh and cruel just because a desired game wasn't released on time? If so how in the world is that even justified? I mean, come on. At the end of the day we're talking about entertainment products. GAMES. This shouldn't justify to be cruel and make people cry.

If true that is really cruel, disgusting and makes me somehow feel ashamed to be a member of GAF... :/

He might be referring to the thread when the news broke on Tequila Works buying the game back from Sony, which got fired up after this post in particular. Long story short: a lot of allegations of misspent development time and aimlessness that made Sony pull the plug, with the expected reactions.
 

Ferr986

Member
To be fair, the rumors came from spanish forum Vandal, and it was quite harsh there too. So I dunno why he targets Neogaf. Maybe because it got widespread internationally here....

It's true that some comments are too harsh here, but it's pretty much the same everywhere, not just GAF. Gaming community having a lot of shit people and all of that....
 

hydruxo

Member
To be fair, the rumors came from spanish forum Vandal, and it was quite harsh there too. So I dunno why he targets Neogaf. Maybe because it got widespread internationally here....

I'd imagine he saw it here first, and saw the negative comments people were making on GAF. From what I remember, people were very harsh about the whole situation.
 
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