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[Gen X]

Surprised Mass Effect wasn't reviewed. I genuinely expected a 5 based on what most media outlets scores have been.

 

[Vigilant Walrus]

With all due respect, you completely butchered my argument, wrote it off as "pseudo stereotypical one-dimensional extrapolations" (???), and completely missed the point I was trying to make. How is refuting a complaint with actual arguments even remotely comparable to handwaving criticism? When did I even imply that the reviewer didn't "get the greatness" of the game. How am I being cowardly? Spare me the strawman.

I'm honestly really disappointed right now, because I don't like being this badly misrepresented.
[/U][/I][/B]

There is no strawman. There is you making bullshit assumptions and running wild gross and inappropriate stereotypes about all japanese adhering to some dogma about a deeper socical stigma that you somehow understand in the face of the oh so stupid edge reviewers who don't understand the deep and social intricacy of social isolation in Japan.

What I take issue with is your lack of receipts, your blatantly statements without evidence. If you don't want to be misinterpreted, don't assume you know the knowledge of the people you're critizing when you yourself don't know the outlet, that person or their level of knowledge. It's particularly jarring when yourself is walking a line touting nuance when you yourself is not showing any nuance in your criticism with your use of "probably".

If it's a nuanced subject, then of course you fucking need to understand the culture if you want to criticize [/B]

Oh please. It's a video game not a thesis on culture. Not to mention it's a "everything is relative" bullshit. You can say everything is nuanced if you want to semantize something to that. Doesn't mean there ois any substance to it.


This review was not made in the context of commenting on japanese culture. It's a review of a video game, and you try to compartmentalize that criticism under some guise that you can hide behnd criticizing others from knowing less about a culture than what you do, and that supposedly being the deciding the factor. "ohh if only these moron reviewers where smarters and understood the honor and shame of japan, they would see the wonders of this socially commenting masterpiece". That's how I read your post. elitist and assuming bullshit about others with nothing to stand on.

 

[Granjinha]

Yeah. Not sure how it relates go Edge's score though. It's invalid because I didn't understand the Japanese game I played?


I'd imagine that it's because the battles are largely unchanged, and the game structure, right down to the narrative, is very familiar. It's not the same, but it definitely follows the same framework.

well how would you know anything about the game's narrative if you don't understand japanese?

 

[Dantis]

well how would you know anything about the game's narrative if you don't understand japanese?

Because I played the game with my eyes open?
I don't understand what point you're trying to make here? :/

Edge gave it an 8. I said 'that's probably because it has a few flaws'. You said 'but you didn't understand the dialog!'.

It's like... okay? How does that relate Edge's review?

 

[Gestahl]

I don't think Japanese culture is as hard to understand as much as some think it is, but then I don't even think it matters when you play a game because judging it within the knowledge of your own cultural upbringing is completely fine and expected.

The whole nuclear family thing definitely puts me off a little if that's an angle they're bringing up in the game and it doesn't matter if it's a big part of Japanese culture, it's how it resonates with me. The idea of a nuclear family being the end all be all and what we should aspire to is a bit insulting to me and my own experience with life and how I've been brought up and even with my life goals in the future (me and my GF can't have children even if we wanted to) and to be told that isn't the way to go is a bit...

Anyway I'll still play the game an still enjoy it I'm sure, but that angle that Edge have highlighted is something I don't really like but it'll all depend on how well executed and how on the nose it is as to whether I find it as a negative or not.

That angle doesn't actually exist.

 

[BennyBlanco]

This game lost 90% of appeal to me when it lose its exclusivity, it doesn't lose it for nothing.

 

[RichiRamjag]

Haha. Thanks for that laugh. Perfect use of that gif

 

[Imp the Dimp]

Good score for P5, looking forward to it. 2017 is brutal, man. Yakuza 0 is probably gonna take like 100h, I swear.

 

[Council Pop]

Probably already been said in this thread, but I cannot wait for Edge to get rid of their review scores entirely. The writing is so good, it doesn't need scores, and no-one gets Edge to quickly scan the reviews. It's about reading interesting criticism, never the sort of 'consumer advice' approach that loads of gaming websites take.

I read Edge reviews because they end up teaching me so much about both game design and games criticism. The magazine is basically the video game equivalent of something like Sight and Sound or The Wire, and we're so lucky to have it.

 

[Granjinha]

Because I played the game with my eyes open?
I don't understand what point you're trying to make here? :/

Edge gave it an 8. I said 'that's probably because it has a few flaws'. You said 'but you didn't understand the dialog!'.

It's like... okay? How does that relate Edge's review?

no, i was just curious earlier, now my point is another one, which is pretty simple, really:

You're saying the narrative etc are similar/worse but you didn't understand anything, i just find it weird lol

 

[rockx4]

Surprised Mass Effect wasn't reviewed. I genuinely expected a 5 based on what most media outlets scores have been.

It would have made the thread way more entertaining if they gave Mass Effect Andromeda an 8.

 

[Iva Demilcol]

I don't think Japanese culture is as hard to understand as much as some think it is, but then I don't even think it matters when you play a game because judging it within the knowledge of your own cultural upbringing is completely fine and expected.

The whole nuclear family thing definitely puts me off a little if that's an angle they're bringing up in the game and it doesn't matter if it's a big part of Japanese culture, it's how it resonates with me. The idea of a nuclear family being the end all be all and what we should aspire to is a bit insulting to me and my own experience with life and how I've been brought up and even with my life goals in the future (me and my GF can't have children even if we wanted to) and to be told that isn't the way to go is a bit...

Anyway I'll still play the game an still enjoy it I'm sure, but that angle that Edge have highlighted is something I don't really like but it'll all depend on how well executed and how on the nose it is as to whether I find it as a negative or not.

Since P3, all main characters have been part of "uncommon" families to justify the classic "hero is an orphan" trope. P5 is not the exception here. As someone who played the game already I can tell you that rather than treating the nuclear family as the highest point of someone's life, the game presents characters with different types of families and iirc they have done so since forever.

There's no such thing as "all these characters are phantom thieves because they come from dysfunctional families", (this is not a spoiler btw) they are phantom thieves for other reasons.

If Edge's reviewer made comments about this I can tell you it may be his interpretation. The game doesn't make a point trying to sell you a traditional family like an ideal.

Because I played the game with my eyes open?
I don't understand what point you're trying to make here? :/

Edge gave it an 8. I said 'that's probably because it has a few flaws'. You said 'but you didn't understand the dialog!'.

It's like... okay? How does that relate Edge's review?

Let's be honest here: you've been spreading negativity about P5 every chance you have and this Edge review probably pleased you to the point that you brought again your "problems with the narrative" card. People have been calling you out because you admitted you don't know any Japanese and yet somehow you found problems with its narrative. Now you're playing dumb saying that your problems with the game have no relationship with Edge's review, even though you're using this score to validate your own opinion.

The game is great, it's not perfect by any means but it totally deserves the high praise it's getting despite how much you want to tell us the opposite.

 

[Rien]

Really on the edge of cancelling pre-order

 

[Vigilant Walrus]

Probably already been said in this thread, but I cannot wait for Edge to get rid of their review scores entirely. The writing is so good, it doesn't need scores, and no-one gets Edge to quickly scan the reviews. It's about reading interesting criticism, never the sort of 'consumer advice' approach that loads of gaming websites take.

I read Edge reviews because they end up teaching me so much about both game design and games criticism. The magazine is basically the video game equivalent of something like Sight and Sound or The Wire, and we're so lucky to have it.

I completely agree. In this thread- and many others, we're not discussing the innards. This goes for every review-related thread imagineable.


With Zelda, with Horizon, with The Last of US, we have had many many threads with this bad fixation on metacritic as a measuring stick. Metacritic is not the source of the problems, but it's certainly being heightened as something I'd say is counter-productive to people forming opinions from a false veil that doesn't mean anything.

If there is depth to be found, it cannot be in the number, but most of the time is that the surface level of discussion. Rarely are threads and posts made about dissecting entire reviews and examining and deconstructing reviews in a way that would give us a lot more value. And it's a shame.

We talk to so much about the failures about video game journalism, and we blame the journalists for being this bottom tier journalists where normal journalists go to die, but isn't it also true that some of the best gaming journalism goes completely unnoticed in favor of the populism? It's rarely the best written pieces on Kotaku, Polygon and others that get long threads and discussions. At least from my perspective.


And I think the blame goes around. We're predisposed to knee jerks on things that annoy us. So we're predisposed to response when something is being done a way it shouldn't. Is Super Bunnyhop trying to be edgy with his Zelda video? Is Jim Sterling being a Horizon fanboy? People get caught up in that vortex instead of all their other content which is AMAZING.

What sort of benefit can I possible have to George or Jim feeling different about a game than me? Yet, we all sort of contribute to keeping those lesser discussion on the front pages regardless of what side of the argument one is on. Even if someone is defending them, they're helping give exposure to the score-fetishization of reviews.

 

[Squire]

An edge 8 is still a great score. I don't really understand some of the bewilderment here, especially considering automata also got an 8.

An 8 from EDGE is a 9 at almost every other outlet that gives scores.

 

[PK Gaming]

There is no strawman. There is you making bullshit assumptions and running wild gross and inappropriate stereotypes about all japanese adhering to some dogma about a deeper socical stigma that you somehow understand in the face of the oh so stupid edge reviewers who don't understand the deep and social intricacy of social isolation in Japan.

Christ, there is so much to unpack here.

Strawman #1:
To handwave people off with criticism along these lines as having a "cultural disconnect"

I did not do this. Refuting a point with an argument = / = hand-waiving. Not a difficult concept to grasp. And for fuck's sakes, stop projecting; I don't think the Edge reviewer is an idiot, nor did I ever imply that so cut that shit out.

Strawman #2:
... "you just don't get the greatness of this game because you're compromised in some way". fuck. that. shit.

I didn't even remotely imply this.

Strawman #3:
Here is you making bullshit assumptions and running wild gross and inappropriate stereotypes about all japanese adhering to some dogma about a deeper socical stigma

Bullshit assumptions? Japan is a collectivist society. You're the one who needs to do some basic fucking research instead of spewing vitriol and acting like you have the highground here.

What I take issue with is your lack of receipts, your blatantly statements without evidence. If you don't want to be misinterpreted, don't assume you know the knowledge of the people you're critizing when you yourself don't know the outlet, that person or their level of knowledge. It's particularly jarring when yourself is walking a line touting nuance when you yourself is not showing any nuance in your criticism with your use of "probably".

***

Japanese familial relations reflected the collectivist nature of their society. As members of a family everyone was expected to work towards the betterment of the family rather than the individual.

Edit: Although Japanese family roles have changed considerably in the 20th century, aspects of the traditional ie, or ”continuing family," still remain.

It took me less 1 minute of googling to find this. Forgive me for not sourcing information that should be obvious to anyone who's even remotely looked into Japanese culture.

Oh please. It's a video game not a thesis on culture. Not to mention it's a "everything is relative" bullshit. You can say everything is nuanced if you want to semantize something to that. Doesn't mean there ois any substance to it.

Nice try, but no. Persona 5 is a game intended to deeply reflect Japanese society. And it's a point that's been reiterated by Hashino again and again and again. So you can't write off my point with "it's just a video game." That's a bullshit justification if I ever saw one.

"ohh if only these moron reviewers where smarters and understood the honor and shame of japan, they would see the wonders of this socially commenting masterpiece".

Yeah i'm done. You are the rudest, most vitriolic and generally obnoxious user I have ever had the displeasure of interacting with on NeoGAF.

I don't even care if I catch a ban here; you're just unpleasant.

 

[Barkley's Justice]

as a u.s. subscriber i should expect to receive this issue sometime in late fall...

 

[MTC100]

These are joke posts right? It's very cringeworthy. Do people really need to be reasoned down from a review score? Then you say they were judged harshly? This can't be serious.

What's so hard to get about it? In my opinion an 8 for either of those games isn't doing them justice(while I sadly can only judge Persona 5 from previews and the common sentiment that it's better than one of my favorite games of all times: P4 Golden). Of course the two were judged harshly for their flaws but no game is perfect anyway, it would be interesting to read the reviews to understand the reasoning of those scores.

Atlus worked almost a decade on this game, put in so much effort and little details, that's not a game you see everyday. I know that the very strong Q1 of 2017 has spoiled gamers and reviewers with a lot of great games, yet Persona 5 is a game that can bravely stand besides even a high caliber like Breath of the Wild, even with the handicap of being a niche title, that not everyone can relate to. This of course also holds true to some extent for Nier Automata.

That said, we should wait and see how the other reviews for P5 will turn out, I am still expecting a 90+ Metascore.

 

[DJChuy]

Great scores for P5 and Nier. Would love to know what issues they had with the games.

I finished NieR Automata a few hours ago and loved it. It does have some flaws, so an 8 seems perfectly fair.

Can't imagine how the reaction will be when P5 gets a score of 7 or lower...

 

[Yautja_Warrior]

It's crazy how some people are about review scores these days. Persona 5 is an awesome game and an 8 is a great score and for those that do care about scores, I'm sure it will get plenty of 9's too.

 

[MTC100]

Can't imagine how the reaction will be when P5 gets a score of 7 or lower...

It will get scores of that kind, perhaps even a 6, if a game like Breath of the Wild can get a 6 then surely P5 is not safe from it.

It's crazy how some people are about review scores these days. Persona 5 is an awesome game and an 8 is a great score and for those that do care about scores, I'm sure it will get plenty of 9's too.

The question remains: Is the review environment really that hostile in this generation, preventing most games from even reaching a 90+ MC or was it just too lush the last generation? -Just look at GTA IV, a game with that kind of bugs and performance issues would get devastated in this day and age but sits at a comfortable 98 on MC, ironically the much better GTA V might have set a too high standard in the minds of reviewers perhaps?

It will be interesting to see and compare the MC score of P5 to P4G once enough reviews arrive. -Also RDR2 will be interesting to watch, let's hope it arrives this year.

 

[Vigilant Walrus]

Christ, there is so much to unpack here.

Strawman #1:
To handwave people off with criticism along these lines as having a "cultural disconnect"

I did not do this. Refuting a point with an argument = / = hand-waiving. Not a difficult concept to grasp. And for fuck's sakes, stop projecting; I don't think the Edge reviewer is an idiot, nor did I ever imply it so cut that shit out.

Strawman #2:
... "you just don't get the greatness of this game because you're compromised in some way". fuck. that. shit.

I didn't even remotely imply this.

Strawman #3:
Here is you making bullshit assumptions and running wild gross and inappropriate stereotypes about all japanese adhering to some dogma about a deeper socical stigma

Bullshit assumptions? Japan is a collectivist society. You're the one who needs to do some basic fucking research instead of spewing vitriol and acting like you have highground here.



***



It took me less 1 minute of googling to find this. Forgive me for not sourcing information that should be obvious to anyone who's even remotely looked into Japanese culture.



Nice try, but no. Persona 5 is a game intended to deeply reflect Japanese society. And it's a point that's been reiterated by Hashino again and again and again. So you can't write off my point with "it's just a video game." That's a bullshit justification if I ever saw it.



Yeah i'm done. You are the rudest, most vitriolic and generally obnoxious user I have ever had the displeasure of interacting with on GAF.

I don't even care if I catch a ban here; you're just unpleasant.

I am not commenting on social norms, I am commenting on your childish conclusions about surface level generalizations on the behalf of the reviewers knowledge of Japanese social customs and cultural innards. You google your talking points is meaningless- I am well aware of what it said. That is not what this is about.

This is about the way you round up your conclusions; unsubstantiated and grasping for straws. You repeat yourself in your own deflection trying to save face.
You made an assumption about the reviewers know how touting your own "honor and shame" meme reenactment. That is what I was commenting on, and now you're throwing temper tantrums trying to stir of course.

Lastly, you are deeply misguided in thinking that the intentions of a developer (you're reaching here) makes them exempt or beholden to a certain approach to understanding by an audience. This is a pretty common fallacy based copout that many creatives have used to excuse themselves from criticisms. "others just don't understand". buh fucking hoo. Not everyone is going to like it, and that doesn't have to have anything to do with them not understanding.

So stop pulling arguments out of thin air that doesn't hold up under scrutiny. Baseless assumptions are baseless assumptions, and for the last three posts I've asked you to provide evidence to your accusation of the reviewer not "understanding"- which is basically another way of saying the guy is a moron, because as you said, it's self evident common knowledge that japan has some of these cultural tropes. You're the one dressing this up as "cultural disconnect" like you're this otaku messiah. I'm saying it's baseless, and I am still waiting for some receipts on the basis of your usage of what the reviewer "probably" knows.



TL;DR - Googling your talking points is not a shield for a reviewer not being as captivated by the cultural norms of another culture by saying "this guy doesn't understand japanese culture. he just doesn't get it because he is "disconnected".

I am saying that if you want to make that assumption about the reviewer, you need to have a better foundation and amount of proof to substantiate it. I am saying the comment and generalization is dumb and unfounded, and I am asking you to bring a burden of proof, which you have tippy toed around in doing.

 

[Realeza]

Persona only twice as good as Bomberman confirmed.

 

[pbayne]

It would have made the thread way more entertaining if they gave Mass Effect Andromeda an 8.

lol im dissapointed now. It would have been worth it for the meltdowns alone.

Ghost Recon got slammed pretty hard. Its also pretty much the first ive heard of it since e3 i think. Dropped completely off the radar for me.

 

[MTC100]

Persona only twice as good as Bomberman confirmed.

Or rather: Persona 5 being half as bad as Bomberman...

 

[Coolbgdog12]

Let's be honest here: you've been spreading negativity about P5 every chance you have and this Edge review probably pleased you to the point that you brought again your "problems with the narrative" card. People have been calling you out because you admitted you don't know any Japanese and yet somehow you found problems with its narrative. Now you're playing dumb saying that your problems with the game have no relationship with Edge's review, even though you're using this score to validate your own opinion.

The game is great, it's not perfect by any means but it totally deserves the high praise it's getting despite how much you want to tell us the opposite.

Don't bother. i'm not really going to entertain someone talking about plot points/story in a game they played that they didn't understand. Hell, I'm at the final boss and even though I can say I know a little bit of Japanese I wouldn't even bother trying to say I understood it all.

 

[kewlmyc]

I wonder if the actual review thread will be this bad.

 

[PK Gaming]

I wonder if the actual review thread will be this bad.

This thread has been fairly civil, my arguments with Vigilant Walrus aside.

 

[Dead End Irony]

I wonder if the actual review thread will be this bad.

As long as it sits confortably above a 90, it'll be cool. I'm anticipating an Automata-level thread where it swings between 89-90. I'm just gonna avoid it lol.

 

[Drewfonse]

They should have just given P5 a 9. Would have saved a few aneurysms. THAT'S ON YOU, EDGE

 

[Yabberwocky]

An 8 from EDGE is a 9 at almost every other outlet that gives scores.

Yeah, absolutely. An 8 is a glowing stamp of approval from EDGE.

 

[BRSxIgnition]

I wonder if the actual review thread will be this bad.

Certainly hope it won't be. At least NieR: Automata's review thread only really went sour once, and that was because of a 5/10 incomplete review.

I imagine the P5 Review Thread will only really turn bad if it fails to best P4G's 93 or falls well below it. By all metrics, it seems like they've only fixed things from there, so expectations are high.

Is the general consensus that a review thread can be posted an hour or so before the embargo lifts? Plan to do this with a countdown included. (Banner image already made.)

 

[DecoReturns]

I wonder if the actual review thread will be this bad.

Zelda thread got a bad for a bit with a 4.5 out 5.
It's bound to happen, but who cares. I'm itching to play it and so happy I can on PS3.

 

[MTC100]

Yeah, absolutely. An 8 is a glowing stamp of approval from EDGE.

It's true, their scoring is almost 9% under what the average is on Metacritic, 82% of their reviews are lower than the average score. Persona 5 and Nier are proof that they want to keep it that way. -This also means that their score isn't really representative for the average score at all though.

 

[ChrisD]

Or rather: Persona 5 being half as bad as Bomberman...

They were making a joke
Because they don't care about a score on something so much as to write entire paragraphs about how wrong a publication is.

 

[MTC100]

They were making a joke

Oh, thanks for clearing that up

 

[NinjaCoachZ]

They open arguing that Persona 5's weakness is familiarity and close saying it is "simply put, cool". The format of a school year means it lacks surprise. The changes to dungeons from Persona 4 to 5 may have already been seen in Tokyo Mirage Sessions. While there is a change in pace to the dungeons because of stealth and dialogue in battle, its strength remains in the social simulator and side activities.

"A creeping subtext about the importance of a stable family life [...] is less succesful, making a stuffily old-fashioned point about the nuclear family that seems at odds with the game's attempt to celebrate rather than demean."

This is completely reasonable. My expectation going in was always that it would be a very good Persona game, but keep the core formula (e.g. game flow, character setup, school setting) safe. It's a refined version of the formula but not quite a massive innovation or groundbreaking fresh start for the series. An 8 is still a respectable score, especially from them.

 

[Lunar15]

I wonder if the actual review thread will be this bad.

Has it been that bad?

 

[Grassy]

Certainly hope it won't be. At least NieR: Automata's review thread only really went sour once, and that was because of a 5/10 incomplete review.

I imagine the P5 Review Thread will only really turn bad if it fails to best P4G's 93 or falls well below it. By all metrics, it seems like they've only fixed things from there, so expectations are high.

Is the general consensus that a review thread can be posted an hour or so before the embargo lifts? Plan to do this with a countdown included. (Banner image already made.)

Don't mods lock review threads that go up too early? I think it's far better to put it up when the actual embargo hits with at least a few reviews, otherwise you'll have pages full of useless spam and hype posts.

 

[Zukkoyaki]

I like how unpredictable Edge's scores are, they always make for a stellar read.

 

[BRSxIgnition]

Don't mods lock review threads that go up too early? I think it's far better to put it up when the actual embargo hits with at least a few reviews, otherwise you'll have pages full of useless spam and hype posts.

Admittedly the only experience I have with Review Threads is NieR: Automata and that was a weird case. (Import reviews, MC score before embargo lifted, etc.)

I'll play it safe and go with 30 minutes ahead + countdown to limit spam posts.

 

[Lynx_7]

I've seen plenty of review threads that go up a few hours before the embargo so it should be fine.

 

[BRSxIgnition]

Damn, still 4 days out from embargo, 1 critic review, and Metacritic is still hype.

I've seen plenty of review threads that go up a few hours before the embargo so it should be fine.

Cool, thanks - I'll do that then, should be fine with a countdown morning-of.

 

[Son Of D]

Which road? I'm just asking.

There's a stupid FFXV vs Persona 5 rivalry on this board. Mentioning FFXV in a P5 thread (and vice versa) doesn't end well.

 

[manfestival]

that score is way too low for persona 5

 

[eyeball_kid]

This is completely reasonable. My expectation going in was always that it would be a very good Persona game, but keep the core formula (e.g. game flow, character setup, school setting) safe. It's a refined version of the formula but not quite a massive innovation or groundbreaking fresh start for the series. An 8 is still a respectable score, especially from them.

It's reasonable if you think a game can't get a 9 or 10 without being groundbreaking and massively innovative. But I don't agree with that kind of metric. For instance, I'd probably give Yakuza 0 a 9 or 10 for all the things it does so pitch-perfectly, even though you could certainly levy the claim that Yakuza is formulaic. (note: I don't really care about scores, look forward to reading the actual review)

 

[Scoops]

This game lost 90% of appeal to me when it lose its exclusivity, it doesn't lose it for nothing.

Wow

 

[MaximumSpider]

I wonder if the actual review thread will be this bad.

Meltdowns if it doesn't surpass P4G probably.
I don't mind since from what I've seen, P5 is a 10 to me. Same with P4G.

 

[Imp the Dimp]

Meltdowns if it doesn't surpass P4G probably.
I don't mind since from what I've seen, P5 is a 10 to me. Same with P4G.

How can you tell from marketing material how good a game is? People should relax, honestly. Every review thread gets really...odd once unsatisfactory reviews come up, like different opinions shouldn't exist. You'd have a hard time finding two random GAFers feeling the exact same about any game, yet people expect reviewers' opinions all to align. It's not like review scores are science or anything.

 

[Icedburden]

This game lost 90% of appeal to me when it lose its exclusivity, it doesn't lose it for nothing.

So, when a game is open to more audiences it loses its appeal? I'm glad they ended the exclusivity, now they can make up for your lost sale.