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Endless Legend (4X game by Amplitude) - Update: Out now

CivBE will be fine. Whether that's at release or after an expansion or two will be ours to see later this month. With Firaxis' previous track record, there's no reason to believe that it will be anything other than a solid game at the very least.

Anyways, having played EL a bit more I find it interesting how AMPLITUDE has fused space 4x concepts (like unit-building and region control) with more traditional fantasy 4X designs. It takes clear note from some of Elemental: Fallen Enchantress: Legendary Heroes' successes, while avoiding its less desirable features. For instance, the unit building in EL is far more approachable and comprehensible, even if it sacrifices a lot of the more "roleplay-y" and intricate aspects present in LH.

Not-So-Fake Edit: Oh and I forgot to mention that the summer/winter thing is a really cool concept. One day I'll stop making settlers RIGHT AS WINTER OCCURS... (2 for 2 so far)
 

Brakke

Banned
Not-So-Fake Edit: Oh and I forgot to mention that the summer/winter thing is a really cool concept. One day I'll stop making settlers RIGHT AS WINTER OCCURS... (2 for 2 so far)

Is it just me or do winters get longer, summers shorter as the game carries on? I wasn't posting super close attention, couldn't tell if it was real or perceived but winters were super frustrating in the endgame.
 
Is it just me or do winters get longer, summers shorter as the game carries on? I wasn't posting super close attention, couldn't tell if it was real or perceived but winters were super frustrating in the endgame.

I haven't played long enough to tell. They seem to be between 10-20 turns, but it might be randomly determined which could skew things a lot if summers function the same way.

Also I got a CTD. I hope they iron out these bugs soon.
 

Aaron

Member
Is it just me or do winters get longer, summers shorter as the game carries on? I wasn't posting super close attention, couldn't tell if it was real or perceived but winters were super frustrating in the endgame.
By the time I hit the third tech level, winters just made my troops slower. Just need to properly invest in city improvements and empire plan to counteract the effects.
 

Maledict

Member
Is it just me or do winters get longer, summers shorter as the game carries on? I wasn't posting super close attention, couldn't tell if it was real or perceived but winters were super frustrating in the endgame.

Yes, winters get longer and summers shorter as the game goes on - and every winter you'll generally get a new penalty added to make them even worse. Eventually (around turn 275 or so on a normal game) you'll have permanent winter.

By that point you really should have won however! I think they have suggested they will add more options around winter settings in future patches.
 

Brakke

Banned
Yes, winters get longer and summers shorter as the game goes on - and every winter you'll generally get a new penalty added to make them even worse. Eventually (around turn 275 or so on a normal game) you'll have permanent winter.

By that point you really should have won however! I think they have suggested they will add more options around winter settings in future patches.

Yeah, I couldn't tell if it was just a case of turns lasting longer in the later game because of more units / cities, but the winters definitely get longer. That's frustrating though. It makes a mess of "continue playing" after you've achieved a victory condition. I finally got a handle on the cultists but then I won the turns victory before the kill-all-capitals victory I wanted... was thinking about just continuing past victory but I was only a couple turns from winter and Fuck Late Game Winter.

Also Fuck Win By Score. Definitely disabling that in future. It's always so so totally anticlimactic.
 

ameratsu

Member
Hey everyone, looking to buy Endless Legend.

Just wondering how the IGN prime game-of-the-month thing works. If I buy a month of prime, will i be eligible for a key, or is it just for longer subscriptions?
 

flowsnake

Member
Hey everyone, looking to buy Endless Legend.

Just wondering how the IGN prime game-of-the-month thing works. If I buy a month of prime, will i be eligible for a key, or is it just for longer subscriptions?

Yes. I paid for a month and then cancelled after I got a key for this and another game.
 
...few more hours logged and still loving it. There are a lot of interesting mechanics here, and i`m loving the art work. Its high fantasy, but definitely with a different take on it.

I`m sure Beyond Earth will be fine, but i have something like 1500 hours in Civ 5 and i`m a little burned out on it. Especially that engine, which i was disappointed with on day 1. I want a Civ game with the graphical overworld of the Total War games, and doesn`t take 3 minutes for the AI to go.... /dreamworld
 

Aaron

Member
You it will be there eventually right?
I'm already sold on this, just wanting to know whether or not I should grab it now.
There's an option on the main menu for it, but it's greyed out. You can post a question on the steam forums, and ask about it.
 

Aselith

Member
Yes. It looks like Civilization. It might be good but I'm not sold.

Anyway, the Endless team does some cool stuff. A nice variety of genres, too. Very impressive.

Whoa, a Civilization game that looks like Civilization? What're the chances?
 

jblank83

Member
Whoa, a Civilization game that looks like Civilization? What're the chances?

I see I have to put this in "message board" format.

It looks like a boring reskin of Civilization V. It might turn out better than that, but right now I'm not convinced.

In the eventuality that it is indeed a boring reskin of Civilization V with a plethora of expensive expansion packs lined up for the next 2 years that will eventually bring it up to snuff (see Civilization V, 2010-2013), then I have my eyes on other more interesting strategy games. In that case, I'll pick up a "GOTY" or whatever edition of Beyond Earth with its 2 or 3 or 4 expansions at $14.99 on sale.
 
Endless winter doesn't really... sound like fun. Fortunately the awesomeness of the soundtrack negates this a fair bit.

A question for anyone who got Endless Legend from IGN Prime: Which version of the game did you get? I have the classic version from IGN Prime, but the Ice Wargs are definitely present in my game so I'm confused. (Ice Wargs are from the Founder's Pack)

I see I have to put this in "message board" format.

It looks like a boring reskin of Civilization V. It might turn out better than that, but right now I'm not convinced.

In the eventuality that it is indeed a boring reskin of Civilization V with a plethora of expensive expansion packs lined up for the next 2 years that will eventually bring it up to snuff (see Civilization V, 2010-2013), then I have my eyes on other more interesting strategy games. In that case, I'll pick up a "GOTY" or whatever edition of Beyond Earth with its 2 or 3 or 4 expansions at $14.99 on sale.

If you don't like Civilization you can just say so, you know. There's no need for baseless slander.

Message board format:
You're painting a very unbalanced picture of Civilization V. It has had two expansion packs, not a plethora, and those two expansions greatly improved the game. The DLCs, while numerous, are entirely optional and added minor content to the game. All of this while Civ5 received numerous patches to further improve and refine it.

Civilization 5 is actually a big reason to be excited for Civilization: Beyond Earth. All of the mistakes, missteps, and successes of Civ5 will presumably go towards improving and perfecting CivBE. If it finds enough success, there may well be an expansion or two in the wing... which will bring CivBE ever closer to the greatness that is its progenitor, Alpha Centauri.


Honestly, this whole notion of long-term support being a bad thing is baffling to me. I guess it's part of the reason why there's so little ire towards the utterly miserable support most games receive post-release. It's even gotten to the point where developers aren't afraid to say as much; it's only been a few months since the Batman: Arkham Origins developer openly stated they prioritized DLC over further patches for their (buggy) game.

But make no mistake: for as long as Firaxis is expanding the game with paid content, they will also be patching the game for free... This is how they work.

And fortunately for us, AMPLITUDE Studios is following the Firaxian development method, with a handful of updates already roughly charted out. This includes free content updates, 'cuz indie/smaller devs are awesome like that. Part of it is a new faction coming down the road... I, for one, cannot even begin to imagine what it will be.
 
Endless winter doesn't really... sound like fun.

I've only played to the end-game a few times now, but I've never seen endless winter - although it obviously does come more frequently as the game goes on.

I quite like the mechanic though. Obviously it sucks when it happens, but it adds another layer of strategy to how you should build your civilization, and when to declare war, etc...
 

Maledict

Member
Yeah, Endless Winter should only trigger if you are losing basically. It's the equivalent of a timed win in Civ 5, although it seems to happen even less and generally *someone * should have won by then.

It's definitely not a major concern.
 

valouris

Member
Anybody played both this and Beyond Earth now? How do they compare? I'm looking to get one of the two now, and the other in the Christmas sales. Which one do you think is worth more? I am a big Civ fan since Civ 3, and I really enjoyed Civ 5, but I also liked Endless Space, which I've played considerably less.
 

Aureon

Please do not let me serve on a jury. I am actually a crazy person.
Anybody played both this and Beyond Earth now? How do they compare? I'm looking to get one of the two now, and the other in the Christmas sales. Which one do you think is worth more? I am a big Civ fan since Civ 3, and I really enjoyed Civ 5, but I also liked Endless Space, which I've played considerably less.

After Civ5, i'd say CivBE is definitely good, but something tells me it'll get much better than the inevitable xpac rolls out.
EL is also much cheaper right now.
 

Aaron

Member
Anybody played both this and Beyond Earth now? How do they compare? I'm looking to get one of the two now, and the other in the Christmas sales. Which one do you think is worth more? I am a big Civ fan since Civ 3, and I really enjoyed Civ 5, but I also liked Endless Space, which I've played considerably less.
They're very different. I'd say if you want more Civ5 style play, go with Beyond Earth. If you want a different experience, go with Endless Legend.
 
So... is there anyone that enjoys Endless Legends' combat? Because I find it to be such a drag - so slow, unpredictable, and, well... boring.

The root of the issue is the combat stat distribution (dmg, health, atk/def) which leads to very resilient units that take anywhere from 4-8 attacks to kill (barring incredible luck), depending on how mighty your units are. The stats, coupled with low movement and essentially randomized battle areas (oftentimes filled with lots of rough terrain) leads to very slow, plodding battles where more time is spent attempting to position units than actually doing any fighting - and this issue is further exacerbated by the lack of direct unit control. It's as if they took the Civ5 combat, put it into a tactical combat arena (a la most fantasy 4Xes) and yet still managed to retain the unfortunate Endless Space "out of your hands" aspect of the combat.

I wouldn't be so disappointed (or maybe upset) with how EL's combat worked if the autoresolve was more reliable. Unfortunately, the autoresolve AI seems to do very basic "attack nearest" attack strategies that causes a lot of normally avoidable losses, which means that you're essentially forced to spend minutes at a time slowly slaughtering your opponents. And combat in EL isn't exactly uncommon, thanks to how the regions are structured.

The combat in Endless Legends is begging for the depth that something like Age of Wonders 3 has. AoW3-esque mechanics like action points, in- and out-of-battle active abilities, flanking, damage types & resistances, distinct unit tiers, environmental effects, or even the magic system would add so much more variance and strategy to how combat can turn out. That (or drastically overhauling the existing mechanics) would not only reduce the repetitious nature of EL's combat, but also increase the strategy, tactics, or even fun that the combat provides.

I guess I just don't understand why EL uses the combat system it does. It's neither to the player's or the AI's benefit, and it makes the the level-ups, equipment, etc. feel very superfluous in light of how the combat actually plays it. Really, it seems like more of a crutch, or even a "TODO" system, instead of a fully-fleshed-out game mechanic.

To be honest I'm baffled that EL left Early Access with the combat in such a state... Though I suppose bad combat is an AMPLITUDE trademark by now.

If I'm missing some big secret that makes the combat fun or interesting, please enlighten me.
 
What was the first game to utilize the "zoom out on the strategic map to make it look like it's illustrated on parchment" conceit? Just curious.
 

Aaron

Member
So... is there anyone that enjoys Endless Legends' combat? Because I find it to be such a drag - so slow, unpredictable, and, well... boring.

The root of the issue is the combat stat distribution (dmg, health, atk/def) which leads to very resilient units that take anywhere from 4-8 attacks to kill (barring incredible luck), depending on how mighty your units are. The stats, coupled with low movement and essentially randomized battle areas (oftentimes filled with lots of rough terrain) leads to very slow, plodding battles where more time is spent attempting to position units than actually doing any fighting - and this issue is further exacerbated by the lack of direct unit control. It's as if they took the Civ5 combat, put it into a tactical combat arena (a la most fantasy 4Xes) and yet still managed to retain the unfortunate Endless Space "out of your hands" aspect of the combat.
That depends a lot on the race you're playing. There are fast units that cover a lot of ground, like the necro's second unit, and others that fire long range, like the wild folks, so you don't need to move them much. You also do have direct unit control. Set them to stay put, and then click on the space you want to move them to. I employ this to save my near dead units all the time. Also make sure you set the combat to faster in the advanced options before starting a game. This really should be the default.

I guess I just don't understand why EL uses the combat system it does. It's neither to the player's or the AI's benefit, and it makes the the level-ups, equipment, etc. feel very superfluous in light of how the combat actually plays it. Really, it seems like more of a crutch, or even a "TODO" system, instead of a fully-fleshed-out game mechanic.
I don't understand this. Unit leveling doesn't matter that much, but your hero abilities can make your units much stronger, and better equipment makes a huge difference. If you can get access to advanced materials before your opponents, you will destroy them utterly. While autoresolve is there for when you have an overwhelming advantage. In every game of this type, if the match is close you want to play it out.

Honestly, I got bored with AOE3's combat. I found myself doing the same strats over and over. In this game, you can actually look at the terrain, and decide from what angle you should attack from. In this game, I find that positioning matters more, and I find myself coordinating my melee units into walls to protect my softer ranged fighters. There isn't a ton of depth to it, but I find it better strategically than Civ, and the rest of the game isn't utterly empty as AOE3 was.
 
So... is there anyone that enjoys Endless Legends' combat? Because I find it to be such a drag - so slow, unpredictable, and, well... boring.

The root of the issue is the combat stat distribution (dmg, health, atk/def) which leads to very resilient units that take anywhere from 4-8 attacks to kill (barring incredible luck), depending on how mighty your units are. The stats, coupled with low movement and essentially randomized battle areas (oftentimes filled with lots of rough terrain) leads to very slow, plodding battles where more time is spent attempting to position units than actually doing any fighting - and this issue is further exacerbated by the lack of direct unit control. It's as if they took the Civ5 combat, put it into a tactical combat arena (a la most fantasy 4Xes) and yet still managed to retain the unfortunate Endless Space "out of your hands" aspect of the combat.

I wouldn't be so disappointed (or maybe upset) with how EL's combat worked if the autoresolve was more reliable. Unfortunately, the autoresolve AI seems to do very basic "attack nearest" attack strategies that causes a lot of normally avoidable losses, which means that you're essentially forced to spend minutes at a time slowly slaughtering your opponents. And combat in EL isn't exactly uncommon, thanks to how the regions are structured.

The combat in Endless Legends is begging for the depth that something like Age of Wonders 3 has. AoW3-esque mechanics like action points, in- and out-of-battle active abilities, flanking, damage types & resistances, distinct unit tiers, environmental effects, or even the magic system would add so much more variance and strategy to how combat can turn out. That (or drastically overhauling the existing mechanics) would not only reduce the repetitious nature of EL's combat, but also increase the strategy, tactics, or even fun that the combat provides.

I guess I just don't understand why EL uses the combat system it does. It's neither to the player's or the AI's benefit, and it makes the the level-ups, equipment, etc. feel very superfluous in light of how the combat actually plays it. Really, it seems like more of a crutch, or even a "TODO" system, instead of a fully-fleshed-out game mechanic.

To be honest I'm baffled that EL left Early Access with the combat in such a state... Though I suppose bad combat is an AMPLITUDE trademark by now.

If I'm missing some big secret that makes the combat fun or interesting, please enlighten me.
Yeah the AI is just bad making the combat boring and the auto combat useless (losing a battles that I could have won eaily manually etc).
And I have no idea what most stats do, they are not very well explained and they are just too many.

Is the combat like this in Endless Space too?
 

Brakke

Banned
So... is there anyone that enjoys Endless Legends' combat? Because I find it to be such a drag - so slow, unpredictable, and, well... boring.

Yeah, I definitely get in to auto combat once the armies get bigger than 6, and almost always when the odds are highly in my favor. That's auto as in don't-even-zoom-in auto, not keeping-hitting-go auto. At least that way it takes 2 seconds instead of forever.

Giving the AI so much control over your own actions is super frustrating. AI doesn't seem to even take account of turn order, so they're constantly moving far back field units in front of melee units in such a way as to block a bottleneck and prevent melee units from closing the distance. Just lame all around.

There's some things you can do to mitigate (get flying units and ranged units) but yeah, I usually skip it entirely. It never even seems like me taking control leads to better results than letting the thing auto resolve.

Yeah the AI is just bad making the combat boring and the auto combat useless (losing a battles that I could have won eaily manually etc).
And I have no idea what most stats do, they are not very well explained and they are just too many.

Is the combat like this in Endless Space too?

There's been an expansion since I played Endless Space so it's maybe changed... It was different but similarly dissatisfying.
 
Anybody played both this and Beyond Earth now? How do they compare? I'm looking to get one of the two now, and the other in the Christmas sales. Which one do you think is worth more? I am a big Civ fan since Civ 3, and I really enjoyed Civ 5, but I also liked Endless Space, which I've played considerably less.

I think it's pretty obvious that EL is the better game. Superior artwork, theme, UI, and engine. Building an empire is much more enjoyable - from expanding your city via boroughs to the implementation of resources. Information is where you need it when you need it. Almost all of the commands you need at any given time are easily accessible.

Combat is mostly fun. Most the time you can use auto resolve, but if it's a particularly tough battle you can go in manual to try and eek out a win.

AI is the weakest link. The enemy factions just don't seem to put up much of a challenge. But the developer knows this, and their history with post-launch support is pretty fantastic. So it's coming....

I'm a massive fan of Civ, but BE is disappointing. Undercooked and not really true to its theme. Firaxis B-team I'm guessing.
 
That depends a lot on the race you're playing. There are fast units that cover a lot of ground, like the necro's second unit, and others that fire long range, like the wild folks, so you don't need to move them much. You also do have direct unit control. Set them to stay put, and then click on the space you want to move them to. I employ this to save my near dead units all the time. Also make sure you set the combat to faster in the advanced options before starting a game. This really should be the default.

Re bolded: GAMECHANGER HOLY COW OMFG YES WOOHOO

Ahem. To be clear, there is no direct unit control. You are always telling an AI to fulfill your orders; if it cannot complete your orders, it will act on its own... and this can be troublesome. There are directives that limit the amount of mistakes they can make, but mistakes will happen simply due to the nature of the combat.

For instance, say there are two paths to get to an enemy unit (that you've designated as the target) - a 3-hex direct path and an 11-hex roundabout path. If the short path becomes blocked before the unit moves, it will take the longer path even if it means moving in the wrong direction to get to the target.... from the human's perspective. In turn-based, strategic combat - which is what Endless Legend strives to include - these sorts of problems can be the difference between victory and defeat, which is why it's so baffling that they set it up this way.

I can only assume they set up the combat in this manner for the benefit of multiplayer, which the Endless games are always very much geared toward.

I don't understand this. Unit leveling doesn't matter that much, but your hero abilities can make your units much stronger, and better equipment makes a huge difference. If you can get access to advanced materials before your opponents, you will destroy them utterly. While autoresolve is there for when you have an overwhelming advantage. In every game of this type, if the match is close you want to play it out.

Honestly, I got bored with AOE3's combat. I found myself doing the same strats over and over. In this game, you can actually look at the terrain, and decide from what angle you should attack from. In this game, I find that positioning matters more, and I find myself coordinating my melee units into walls to protect my softer ranged fighters. There isn't a ton of depth to it, but I find it better strategically than Civ, and the rest of the game isn't utterly empty as AOE3 was.

I'm think you meant Age of Wonders 3, not Age of Empires 3. :3

The thing about AoW3 is that while it has much deeper combat, there's a whole lot more of it to be had. Fortunately (at least in my experience) the autoresolve in that game is much better at being... reliable.


Anyways, in EL's combat the positioning, elevation, and terrain are important, yes, but ultimately become held back by the random nature of the combat zones. Thanks to the chaotic map design and lack of direct control, battles are as much about logistics as they are the strength of armies. This, coupled with the durable units and turn limitation, means that combat encounters often take far longer than they should, with only the most decisive of victories lasting a single combat encounter.

Having higher techs and stronger units is only a band-aid to the problem at the core of Endless Legend's combat... which all comes back to the weird stats that units have. Their health, resilience, and inability to reliably damage units leads to very imprecise, nerf-bat combat that sucks out all pretense of strategy. It is a literal roll of the dice as to which unit will succeed, atk. vs. def., and harkens back to the dark era of Civilization where spearmen could (potentially) kill tanks.

The whole "spearman vs. tank" issue is why Civilization 5 enforced very rigid "Strength"-based combat power, HP, and strategic map combat bonuses - to make combat reliable and dependable, so nothing truly random ever occurred. This moved combat away from the whims of a computer's die, and into the realm of more traditional, 4X-style results that are ultimately decided by the player... And, if nothing else, this is what Endless Legend needs to do.
 

Brakke

Banned
Your individual units have 3 AI types: aggressive, defensive, passive. If you set them to passive they're pretty good at not doing stupid shit. Course, they'll miss turns sometimes...
 

Uthred

Member
This looks pretty interesting but Im wondering how "complete" it is at the moment? Im always leery of getting into early access stuff in case it puts me off a game I would have loved when its complete
 

Momentary

Banned
This looks pretty interesting but Im wondering how "complete" it is at the moment? Im always leery of getting into early access stuff in case it puts me off a game I would have loved when its complete

It's out of early access and it feels like a full game to me. Speaking of which, Dungeon of the Endless is scheduled to release on the 27th
 

Falk

that puzzling face
Vu5Bg6D.jpg

BRB putting the Broken in Broken Lords
 

Keasar

Member
I feel like I am doing something severely wrong. I just saw a rival faction expand to three areas while I was still trying to just get a economy going. If I build a settler, it takes around 40 turns in the beginning to make one, this guy made 2 of those in way less then that.
 

Falk

that puzzling face
Are you playing multiplayer or single player?

AI factions tend to do that, even at normal difficulty.
 
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