Does epic just mean unreal engine games? How would they know what everyone is making?
Consoles, etc. won't disappear because the AAA budget model might be going under. People are just gonna have to get used to it. How do they think that most companies got themselves to where they are now? Through indie gaming.
A sadly very accurate post. Gamers are significantly responsible for creating a catch-22 here; at the very least if devs did scale down, there'd be a very real market contraction in the player size.That's not exactly the reason why. When you have a movie like Avatar or Avengers, you can't put out a movie that has the quality of CGI, large scale type film as these two without spending the same money.
Don't blame devs, blame gamers. Ubisoft makes annual Assassin's Creed games because they said they'd be stupid not to with how much they sell. Because gamers buy them like crazy. That one large scale release will outsell like 20 indie titles. It's going to be like gamers spending full price on a few AAA games that EVERYONE will buy, and the rest will be smaller or indie releases.
They can slash budgets, but when you're used to top notch visuals and motion capture and audio, how much shit do you think they're going to get when people say, it looks like an original Xbox game etc. The budgets are so high not only because they keep throwing money at the game, but because they need 200-500+ employees making top notch visuals. They bring in more than one studio, they outsource, games development is more time consuming than ever. More and more studios are going back to 2-3 year development cycles. Releases may still be annualized like CoD, but they'll have 3 different studios making them every three years. EA wants to do the same with its titles like battlefield, titanfall, star wars battlefront.
I've seen Sony getting a lot of flak for giving away low budget indie games on PS+ for PS4.
FFS why does indie == pixel art. Have a look at the indie games available on PC, this is a completely outmoded line of thinking. Indie games mightn't have motion capture and overused prerendered cut scenes but they are far beyond pixel art.Indie games will have to provide the experiences AAA gaming provide, the majority of the people are not interested in indie pixel art games, they want graphics heavy games, the reason they go out and buy a new console for, AAA experiences like Fifa, CoD, GTA, Skyrim and the likes. I've seen Sony getting a lot of flak for giving away low budget indie games on PS+ for PS4.
And most of them look really uninteresting so far. This is just sad
Reminds me of early Hollywood:
"our films aren't making money, what do we do?"
"up the budget, that'll fix it!"
Indie games will have to provide the experiences AAA gaming provide, the majority of the people are not interested in indie pixel art games, they want graphics heavy games, the reason they go out and buy a new console for, AAA experiences like Fifa, CoD, GTA, Skyrim and the likes. I've seen Sony getting a lot of flak for giving away low budget indie games on PS+ for PS4.
Indie games will have to provide the experiences AAA gaming provide, the majority of the people are not interested in indie pixel art games, they want graphics heavy games, the reason they go out and buy a new console for, AAA experiences like Fifa, CoD, GTA, Skyrim and the likes. I've seen Sony getting a lot of flak for giving away low budget indie games on PS+ for PS4.
I remember being basically laughed at in a thread about this last year for saying dev costs would skyrocket this gen.
FFS why does indie == pixel art. Have a look at the indie games available on PC, this is a completely outmoded line of thinking. Indie games mightn't have motion capture and overused prerendered cut scenes but they are far beyond pixel art.
People are pining for the mid tier titles to return. Unfortunately that isn't what's happening for the most part, outside of a few examples of such games. Indie/f2p is where the market is going because an indie title can also usually be ported to mobile (or starts it's life there)
It's the stigma against indie games and the lack of marketing they receive. I'll admit I was never a fan of indie games until about 2 years ago. This is something that needs to change, but publishers unfortunately go for the safe money every time.
Do you guys/gals think B-tier titles can make a comeback if they're priced more competitively? Or do you think that publishers are forced to price games at $60+? I wouldn't mind paying $40 for B-tier budget games, but $60 each time can be a tough pill to swallow for me.
Do you guys/gals think B-tier titles can make a comeback if they're priced more competively? Or do you think that publishers are forced to price games at $60+? I wouldn't mind paying $40 for B-tier budget games, but $60 each time can be a tough pill to swallow for me.
I think there'll still be plenty of 'AAA' games this generation. I'm more interested in Indie titles now than I was a generation ago too though. Mostly because I'm becoming more aware of them, but also because there seems to be a lot of interesting stuff being done.
Not that there is anything wrong with that, but I just find that... odd. There is so much out there that I find so much more interesting, exciting and genuinely engaging and fun that are not AAA games, and also not necessarily indie games. Although this is coming from someone who is currently a PC gamer only, I'm not sure if this is a common thing or a console thing
I remember people on this forum not even a full year ago laughing at me when I brought up how every generation has much larger budgets than the previous-- why would this generation be any different?
"Oh, but they already have the content at high enough detail, it won't take any extra work!"
"Oh, but the tool pipeline is so much more mature, it'll save so much time!"
I should go look up the people that were jerks to me and send everyone one of them a big bowl of crow soup.
Not only that, but EPIC THEMSELVES were touting this gen as only slightly more expensive, if not cheaper.
The problem is that it's untested and a risk. No one wants to be the first to take an untested risk.
Not only that, but EPIC THEMSELVES were touting this gen as only slightly more expensive, if not cheaper.
Do you guys/gals think B-tier titles can make a comeback if they're priced more competively? Or do you think that publishers are forced to price games at $60+? I wouldn't mind paying $40 for B-tier budget games, but $60 each time can be a tough pill to swallow for me.
Indie is just a mid-tier developer in the making.
First you make your big break-out title through self publishing. Then you wind up hiring a few more guys for sound and programming, then you ascend to a more managerial position in the company, soon you are hunting for publishers and agencies for marketing... Boom. You're a mid-tier developer.
Do you guys/gals think B-tier titles can make a comeback if they're priced more competively? Or do you think that publishers are forced to price games at $60+? I wouldn't mind paying $40 for B-tier budget games, but $60 each time can be a tough pill to swallow for me.
Serious question... What was the last indie game you played?
FFS why does indie == pixel art. Have a look at the indie games available on PC, this is a completely outmoded line of thinking. Indie games mightn't have motion capture and overused prerendered cut scenes but they are far beyond pixel art.
Predictably, NeoGaf has resorted to the old "GAMEZ ARE TOO EXPENSIVE TO MAKE" narrative that is so popular here.
Read between the lines.
One of the major reasons why team sizes and budgets are up and number of releases are down is because many studios are creating some of the most complex game engines ever created, huge engineering tasks. Many of the studios behind the AAA games Epic is talking about are creating proprietary engines (Destiny, Watch_Dogs, Division, etc) instead of using UE4. That's bad for business of Epic.
It is advantageous to Epic to further the narrative of bloated AAA budgets and such as the primary value proposition of their main product, Unreal Engine, is that it saves the game developer time and money that would have gone into making their own engine.
Were already seeing a bit of this, I think. It's just not the same B-tier that we can compare to B-tier games (or AA) games years ago. What is B tier or AA today carries even greater financial risk.Do you guys/gals think B-tier titles can make a comeback if they're priced more competively? Or do you think that publishers are forced to price games at $60+? I wouldn't mind paying $40 for B-tier budget games, but $60 each time can be a tough pill to swallow for me.
Consoles, etc. won't disappear because the AAA budget model might be going under. People are just gonna have to get used to it. How do they think that most companies got themselves to where they are now? Through indie gaming.
Hopefully this means we'll see that mid-tier bracket come back. It'll mostly be indies, but not necessarily exclusive to them (Ubisoft's Child of Light). I'm way more interested in playing Mind: Path to Thalamus, The Witness, Rime, and Routine than I am the next big-budget, on-rails AAA title.
First of all, stop with the neogaf = hivemind thing. It's stupid and for your information, it's also a bannable offense.Predictably, NeoGaf has resorted to the old "GAMEZ ARE TOO EXPENSIVE TO MAKE" narrative that is so popular here.
Read between the lines.
One of the major reasons why team sizes and budgets are up and number of releases are down is because many studios are creating some of the most complex game engines ever to use throughout this generation. These are huge engineering tasks which are initially very expensive but will amortize themselves over time as the studios reuse the engines for this generations sequels. Many of the studios behind the AAA games Epic is talking about are creating proprietary engines (Destiny, Watch_Dogs, Division, etc) instead of using UE4. That's bad for Epic's business.
It is advantageous to Epic to further the narrative of bloated AAA budgets and out-of-control team sizes, because the primary value proposition of their main product, Unreal Engine, is that it saves the game developer time and money that would have gone into making their own engine.
That's easy. Forced or chosen PS4-XB1 exclusivity to try and drive up the interest.That's where consoles are in a bit of a bind right now. The price of the PS4 and Xbox One are tied up largely in hardware that's only really of use to a minority of the games that are on the way. When people reach the point of asking "If I stick with PS3 and/or 360, just what am I missing out on?", there's an issue.
I don't see the problem because, even if AAA games are the minority in number of releases, they still are the majority in sales, revenues and income.The problem is, AAA justifies power. If that goes away, the impetus to upgrade is weakened, and that's not healthy for console sales.
That's where consoles are in a bit of a bind right now. The price of the PS4 and Xbox One are tied up largely in hardware that's only really of use to a minority of the games that are on the way. When people reach the point of asking "If I stick with PS3 and/or 360, just what am I missing out on?", there's an issue.
How many indies need the PS4?
Now, the raising ceiling is an absolute factor that should be taken into account, but I think hardware decisions are suffering from having been driven by the huge, big-name third parties' desires, not the desires of the average developer.
That's easy. Forced or chosen PS4-XB1 exclusivity to try and drive up the interest.
M°°nblade;109447426 said:I don't see the problem because, even if AAA games are the minority in number of releases, they still are the majority in sales, revenues and income.
The entire selling point of AAA titles is just *how* large-scale, expensive, cinematic they are, not least because they're competing with other games that are similarly big, pricey, and movielike. Indies aren't really judged on the same metric, and - critically - can be profitable when selling to a much smaller audience.M°°nblade;109447426 said:Also, indies may not need PS4 hardware, but neither do AAA games. They both benefit from it though.
Gamers aren't responsible for the falacies of the industry though. Typical major release is pretty much guaranteed to be scoped 2-3x bigger than what eventually releases, if users were responsible (ie. demanding that scope in the first place) the software wouldn't sell, because it literally always fails to meet the initial ambition. But regardless of whether that content&features gets cut or released, money is spent making them.Madness said:Don't blame devs, blame gamers.
Gamers aren't responsible for the falacies of the industry though. Typical major release is pretty much guaranteed to be scoped 2-3x bigger than what eventually releases, if users were responsible (ie. demanding that scope in the first place) the software wouldn't sell, because it literally always fails to meet the initial ambition. But regardless of whether that content&features gets cut or released, money is spent making them.
What game is this?It depends on the developer. Also anything Shin'en creates.
By that you mean you assume that a decrease in number of AAA releases automatically results in a decrease of income per release which sounds highly doubtable.Enough income?
Not necessarely when you decrease the number of releases at the same time.The entire selling point of AAA titles is just *how* large-scale, expensive, cinematic they are, not least because they're competing with other games that are similarly big, pricey, and movielike. Indies aren't really judged on the same metric, and - critically - can be profitable when selling to a much smaller audience.
AAA's have to shout to get noticed, because everyone else who's producing AAA is shouting just as loudly. It's a catch-22. If everyone were to reduce their demands, everyone could benefit from it. But there's a fear that if only one company lowers their arms, they'll get their sales cannibalised by the others. AAA needs the PS4 so it can shout even louder in the hopes of pricing others out of the marketplace.
And in amongst all this, the audience they're selling to isn't particularly growing. The well of consumer money to draw from isn't growing as fast as the costs are. That's not healthy.
If you have to force it, you're failing to justify it.