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[sonicmj1]

How exactly would you have handled this game then? There are stereotypes in a lot of games, We could down the line and find some crazy ass stereotype or imagery of every race but none of those games are being called racist. Its not that people are defending it more so that some people have much thicker skin or know that there are bigger problems to worry about when we are talking about race.

My issue with the game is not simply the existence of a stereotype. There are a lot of stereotypes out there, and they're easy to evoke. In many ways, stereotypes can serve as a useful shortcut, because when you assign a character certain traits associated with a stereotype, people can fill in a lot of the blanks for themselves. GTA does this intentionally all the time.

My issue is the application of the stereotype to, it seems, every African in Kijuju, painting that entire group with the brush of a stereotype that has proven itself to be exceptionally negative and damaging.

This could be easily circumvented in a few ways.

1) Avoid the stupidly obvious stuff, like the scene with the Majini dragging away the white woman. That sort of thing shouldn't need to be said.

2) Don't paint the entire race as an outside "other". I thought ChoklitReign summed it up well when he said that part of the problem was that, "the beginning of the game indeed portrays too narrow of a gap between the morals of Africans and their Majini counterparts."

Let's take a look at the beginning of the game.

Chris and Sheva meet with an informant in a butcher's shop, who tells them they need to find a man called Irving. Off you trot into the winding (but linear) slum streets, stepping over mangled animal remains and examining gruesome slaughterhouse leftovers, until you get your first glimpse of the Majini, the Plagas-infected locals who are the African equivalent of Resident Evil 4's Los Ganados. As the first attack wave swarms towards you, there's clearly no chance of fending them off with your limited ammo reserves this early in the game, so you flee to a nearby house and escape through an underground tunnel.

There is very little build-up of tension, it seems. The characters have barely any contact with uninfected locals. This is pretty similar to how things go in RE4 (that game seemed to have a little more buildup between first encounter and massive danger), but that isn't necessarily a good thing.

What if the outbreak is beginning just as you arrive? What if you come into town, and everything is largely normal? You meet your butcher informant, you go off to find Irving, and things aren't yet amiss. The town is lively, people are going about their business and are non-threatening, perhaps even helpful. You might even reach the Irving mentioned.

Create a slow buildup instead. Most people are normal, but perhaps Chris and Sheva are being followed. Perhaps they get ambushed by a group of people out of a back alley while they travel, and when they have no choice but to resort to violence (scattering any uninfected nearby), their attackers, who don't fear guns and who can take a superhuman amount of punishment, mysteriously bubble away after being killed. Danger starts popping up everywhere, with no real pattern or expectation. Violence occurs not just against Chris, but against some of the uninfected civilians.

Naturally, this portion of the game wouldn't last for a significant amount of the total play time. But not only would it create a much more unsettling atmosphere, even in the bright streets during the day, it would also serve to separate the uninfected citizens of Kijuju from the violent, brutal, infected Majini. And the player's response to the early attacks, when the entire population has not yet become infected, could be illuminating.

Accusations of racism might not go away, but I think that would help.

 

[The S-Word]

I think, from reading this statement, that you have some grasp on how extremely racist this sentiment is.

I don't think you can really defend the decision if the events that occur in-game are as vapid as Eurogamer makes them out to be. Saying a lighter-skinned person is more attractive is propagating a myth. It's demeaning anyone else who happens to have a darker shade of skin and it's totally dismissive of the fact that it's absolutely wrong.

There's the thing though.. you can't pin a ton of blame on just this game though. In society, yes lighter shades or exotic women are generally more accepted, this coming from a person of color. Society is racist around the world, so why try to single out the game for everyone's faults? If Sheva was darker people would have things to say about stereotypical "why does she have to be so dark, don't you know they have all shades in africa?" you just can't win in situations like that.

At the end of the day we just can't have a game set in africa yet. White-guilt isn't over it yet and neither are overlysensitive black people.

 

[iam220]

To RE5 haters: you don't know the difference between racism and national stereotypes that are commonplace in Japan.

fixed?

 

[BlackGoku03]

What's the problem?

The problem is the imagery. It may not bother you or people who have no experience or sensitivity with such imagery, but there is a large group of people across all races who will find this disturbing. If you can't understand that or put yourself in someone elses shoes, then there's no helping you understand why people are upset.

Wow. People really are brainwashed in the US to be hyper sensitive about race to an unreasonable and debilitating degree. Shake free people. A realistic depiction of a virus run rampant in Africa doesn't require your pious guilt so you can get a pat on the head from Al Sharpton.

Anyway, whenever this discussion comes up it makes me nervous. I want preorder and get my copy ASAP before some government sponsored thought police infringe on my rights.

Once again; History. The US has a lot of racial history and most of it is bad. It's affected people's lives and how they think and act. It's been socialy ingrained into our heads. Sure things are exponentially better than it used to be, but you can't simply say "get over it". It just doesn't work that way.

Like I said, this game isn't racist. It's insensitive and not enough thought went into the imagery of the game. Of course, I'm speaking purely of what I played in the demo and the video A Master Ninja posted.

Nobody is trying to get a pat from Al Sharpton. That's silly and it make you appear childish. As does your next comment...

RAAAAAAAACIST!

That is art made by Ghanaian people and is not racist in the slightest. Art like this is sold everywhere.

Grow up.

 

[mikekennyb]

I think for some context regarding RE5's treatment of Africa, one has to look at what they're drawing from when creating the game. One of their big influences was Black Hawk Down (a movie based on the book of the same name, detailing what happened at the Battle of Mogadishu in Somalia in 1991).

"The team was inspired by manga and many other modern movies; the obvious one is Black Hawk Down. Having said that, that wasn't our only influence... The inclusion of co-op play was influenced by western gamers. I can't talk about it right at this moment, but we have incorporated some other aspects of western games into Resident Evil 5 during development." he (Masachika Kawata, RE5 producer) said.

http://news.softpedia.com/news/Resident-Evil-5-Developer-Talks-About-Wester-Influence-96468.shtml

Here is an excerpt from the Philadelphia Enquirer regarding the Battle of Mogadishu:

"Mo'Alim stayed back himself. There was time. The Americans were surrounded. He waited until about a dozen of his men joined him, and then they fanned out to find good positions for a coordinated assault.

On the side of the helicopter he could see, there were two soldiers and a pilot who were firing. Another American lay dead or badly wounded. At Mo'Alim's signal, his men opened fire all at once on the Americans. After a furious exchange of fire that lasted at least two minutes, the Americans stopped firing. The crowd followed Mo'Alim and his men into the clearing.

The mob descended on the Americans. Only one was still alive. He shouted and waved his arms as the mob grabbed him by the legs and pulled him away, tearing at his clothes. People with knives hacked at the bodies of the dead Americans. Others in the crowd pulled and tore at the dead men's limbs. Soon people were running, shouting and cackling, parading with parts of the Americans' bodies."

http://inquirer.philly.com/packages/somalia/nov24/default24.asp

Add into the mix that it's the opinion of many that Japanese are not the most adept at handling race, and I think one can see why some of the content in RE5 is in the game.

Obviously, not all of Africa is like Mogadishu, and I can understand how some could take RE5 as having some racist elements, but it has to be taken in context.

 

[JudgeN]

My issue with the game is not simply the existence of a stereotype. There are a lot of stereotypes out there, and they're easy to evoke. In many ways, stereotypes can serve as a useful shortcut, because when you assign a character certain traits associated with a stereotype, people can fill in a lot of the blanks for themselves. GTA does this intentionally all the time.

My issue is the application of the stereotype to, it seems, every African in Kijuju, painting that entire group with the brush of a stereotype that has proven itself to be exceptionally negative and damaging.

This could be easily circumvented in a few ways.

1) Avoid the stupidly obvious stuff, like the scene with the Majini dragging away the white woman. That sort of thing shouldn't need to be said.

2) Don't paint the entire race as an outside "other". I thought ChoklitReign summed it up well when he said that part of the problem was that, "the beginning of the game indeed portrays too narrow of a gap between the morals of Africans and their Majini counterparts."

Let's take a look at the beginning of the game.



There is very little build-up of tension, it seems. The characters have barely any contact with uninfected locals. This is pretty similar to how things go in RE4 (that game seemed to have a little more buildup between first encounter and massive danger), but that isn't necessarily a good thing.

What if the outbreak is beginning just as you arrive? What if you come into town, and everything is largely normal? You meet your butcher informant, you go off to find Irving, and things aren't yet amiss. The town is lively, people are going about their business and are non-threatening, perhaps even helpful. You might even reach the Irving mentioned.

Create a slow buildup instead. Most people are normal, but perhaps Chris and Sheva are being followed. Perhaps they get ambushed by a group of people out of a back alley while they travel, and when they have no choice but to resort to violence (scattering any uninfected nearby), their attackers, who don't fear guns and who can take a superhuman amount of punishment, mysteriously bubble away after being killed. Danger starts popping up everywhere, with no real pattern or expectation. Violence occurs not just against Chris, but against some of the uninfected civilians.

Naturally, this portion of the game wouldn't last for a significant amount of the total play time. But not only would it create a much more unsettling atmosphere, even in the bright streets during the day, it would also serve to separate the uninfected citizens of Kijuju from the violent, brutal, infected Majini. And the player's response to the early attacks, when the entire population has not yet become infected, could be illuminating.

Accusations of racism might not go away , but I think that would help.

So we still be back to square one because the accusation wouldn't go away and we all know it. Your beginning is better for the game but not for the issue of racism. One village does not constitute "painting a stereotype of a whole race". Most people know better then that, besides that will be the last thing a person will actually be thinking when your playing RE5. People are looking far to much into it because of the history of the black race. IMO people tend to think that anytime someone happens to a black person the first thing people scream is racism and it shouldn't be like this. There are tribes in Africa that use shield and spears, so why everyone so bent out of shape over it? The game is set in Africa your going to shoot black zombies, some in normal attire, some in tribal attire, some in zombie attire. Guess the best way for Capcom to avoid this all was to not have it set in Africa and have Chris go back to shooting white zombies. The world doesn't seem to able to handle anything different. I do agree about the dragging of the white women was unnecessary but it is still a game at the end of the day.

There's the thing though.. you can't pin a ton of blame on just this game though. In society, yes lighter shades or exotic women are generally more accepted, this coming from a person of color. Society is racist around the world, so why try to single out the game for everyone's faults? If Sheva was darker people would have things to say about stereotypical "why does she have to be so dark, don't you know they have all shades in africa?" you just can't win in situations like that.

At the end of the day we just can't have a game set in africa yet. White-guilt isn't over it yet and neither are overlysensitive black people.

I completely agree with this blame society not RE5.

 

[RavenFox]

It's funny how you all laugh at child abuse, wife beatings, rape, child porn, and other horrible things, but turn into sore politicians when it comes to racism in a videogame.

Go fuck yourself and speak for yourself. Your doing the same damn thing. Putting everyone in one giant basket. Fade away into your darkness and stay there.

 

[Mr.Squirrel]

My rules for life

1. Dont take video games seriously

That is all

It's a game, who the fuck cares. If you're looking for social commentary and awareness from a video game you're fuckin retarded.

 

[Kyleripman]

At the end of the day we just can't have a game set in africa yet.

What about Afrika?

 

[sonicmj1]

So we still be back to square one because the accusation wouldn't go away and we all know it. Your beginning is better for the game but not for the issue of racism. One village does not constitute "painting a stereotype of a whole race". Most people know better then that, besides that will be the last thing a person will actually be thinking when your playing RE5. People are looking far to much into it because of the history of the black race. IMO people tend to think that anytime someone happens to a black person the first thing people scream is racism and it shouldn't be like this. There are tribes in Africa that use shield and spears, so why everyone so bent out of shape over it? The game is set in Africa your going to shoot black zombies, some in normal attire, some in tribal attire, some in zombie attire. Guess the best way for Capcom to avoid this all was to not have it set in Africa and have Chris go back to shooting white zombies. The world doesn't seem to able to handle anything different. I do agree about the dragging of the white women was unnecessary but it is still a game at the end of the day.

If you make a huge portion of the characters in the game a particular race, and they all conform to this stereotype, I think you're painting that whole race with a stereotype. If you take efforts to ensure that the whole race is not painted with that stereotype, there is less to be offended by, in my view. I'd at least feel more confident that Capcom was handling the setting intelligently, instead of blundering into it as if it were identical to the past settings they had chosen.

It's not a matter of whether people consciously process images in this way. The propagation and perpetuation of stereotypes isn't always on the surface. But the images presented in the media affect the way people view other people. If they have no other meaningful exposure to other people, media is the only way they are informed about what others act like. Those images have power, whether they are consciously or subconsciously reinforced.

If you deny that games are, like other media, able to convey images that have power and possess meaning, and that they can serve to inform and share ideas; if you state that games are 'just games', then you are condemning video games to never progress past the point of toys, and they will never advance as a storytelling medium. If, on the other hand, you wish to see games tell stories in new and interesting ways, and possibly emerge as an art form that is taken seriously, then you have to accept the negative consequences of it along with the positive ones.

 

[dak1dsk1]

Insta-purchase. We should reward Capcom for not going the PC-route.

also: (nsfw)
http://www.vbs.tv/video.php?id=3516645001

 

[Truant]

Go fuck yourself and speak for yourself. Your doing the same damn thing. Putting everyone in one giant basket. Fade away into your darkness and stay there.

Hit a sore spot there?

 

[Pseudo judo]

My 2 cents...

If the game showed the good side of the many cultures in Africa -- the food, music, dancing, children playing sports and Religion, (considering nearly half the population are Christians) -- and then showed the corruption of those things by factions looking for power and how Umbrella and the virus fits into that environment, I don't think there would be an issue. But Capcom has stripped the intangibles of the African culture and replaced it with a host of RE cliches that just don't come off well. Especially when the muscle bound-technologically advanced Aryan starts beating down the poor, skinny black savages.

If the Euro Gamer article is accurate then Capcom has tread down a dangerous path born of their own ignorance and laziness.

Btw, this isn't a black thing, it's a culture thing. If Chris Redfield was Jewish and the games setting was Palestine. Then Capcom's problems would certainly be more then some bad press, angry moms, and negative message board chatter.

 

[Ranger X]

It's easy to say live in the present time but being black and experiencing things that have influenced one's life can not be ignored. It just can't. Neither can the imagery that is being portrayed here. Like I said, it certainly may not be racist but it sure as hell is insensitive.

There. Basically you understand my point. You understand when it's possible to light a fire... or not. Your duty (as a person of any nation) is to not light that fire and continue in peace. Anybody would like other people to act perfect before working on themselves. I prone working on ourselves.

.

 

[harSon]

RE5 is obviously not intentionally racist. Africa is indeed a dangerous place (most of it, not all of it) with widespread corruption and xenophobic people who could kidnap and rape foreigners. However, the beginning of the game indeed portrays too narrow of a gap between the morals of Africans and their Majini counterparts. Throughout the game you do play a muscular white man and a light-skinned, Anglo-accented, "civilized" black woman killing impoverished Africans. The problem isn't placing the game in Africa - the problem is oversimplifying Africa's problems and portraying all Africans as violent sick people. If you've read any stories about the genocides in Rwanda or the Congo you will hear plenty of testimonies from average Africans and you will know that they are concerned, sympathetic human beings. There should have been more of that presented in the game. This feeds into the other problem that Resident Evil has always been campy and this is the first "serious" game in the series. African stereotypes are presented throughout the game and when you fashion this in a "serious" manner, there will be controversy.

/2 cents

Yes, indeed.

...

:lol :lol :lol

 

[Joe Shlabotnik]

I hear in Resident Evil 6, the Umbrella virus turns the population of an entire Israeli city into greedy bankers. Anyone got a problem with that?

 

[sevenchaos]

Once again; History. The US has a lot of racial history and most of it is bad. It's affected people's lives and how they think and act. It's been socialy ingrained into our heads. Sure things are exponentially better than it used to be, but you can't simply say "get over it". It just doesn't work that way.

I guess this is the fundamental difference between a lot of people in this thread. I find it really easy to "get over it." I can put myself in other people's shoes and understand the sensitivity in the air but I can't help but think that one of the biggest problems here in the US is people's readiness to point out racially charged imagery. Now obviously there is a line that needs to be drawn in the sand and in certain situations of course it is important to speak out against such things. But I honestly do feel the best way to move beyond this, and to further improve the state or our union racially, is to rise above. We need to stop looking for this type of shit.

 

[cultofweaver]

Replying in this thread is almost certainly a mistake and so I shall keep this short.

While there are many different arguments criss-crossing in this discussion the main point that keeps coming up is "RE4 had the same type of stereotypes but about the Spanish, RE5 dealing with Africans is no different."

The problem with this argument is that while the authorial intent and basic type of imagery being used are the same the semiotic language that is being transmitted through that imagery IS very different.

This is often forgotten but N'gai Croal's original problem with the trailer was never that RE5 was racist, it was that the imagery presented had a connotive meaning that mirrored past cultural racism. He wanted to bring that up early partly to make sure Capcom were aware of it and could do something about it.

Now we have the game and it presents almost identical imagery with exactly the same semiotic meaning. Some sections described in the Eurogamer article are absolutely drawing from the same pool of symbolism that the damaging racial propoganda of the late-19th/early-20th century works did. They are directly evocative of those works and as a result cause the same cultural disquiet among some people that watching those images does.

If you use images like that you have to have a reason for it. "It's just a game" is not a reason, it's shifting focus away from the original mistake. If RE5 has an underlying message about colonialism, US Militarism or even the historical realities of Western land-rape and ethnic 'civilisationism' then the imagery would be justified and absolutely belong there. I have seen no assurances that this is the case and if it isn't then the images are misplaced and damaging to the work itself.

The fundamental point remains that, yes it is different to use these images and stereotypes in a game set in Africa.

 

[ultim8p00]

Let me get this straight. Black people can't be portrayed as enemies, whatever the reasoning behind it?

I'd actually consider that evidence that we are all the same, hence no racism at all? Purposely avoiding showing black people under a bad light is sign of hypocrisy IMO.

That wouldn't be this much of a problem if most black people in videogames weren't either enemies or sidekick stereotypes.

 

[HK-47]

Man, what's your beef? "Laughable at best?"

You're gonna suck at SAT/GRE analogies when you get to that point in life.

That fact that you can even compare RE5 to the racism found in Birth is what is laughable.

 

[Ranger X]

Yes, indeed.

...

:lol :lol :lol

Ok he worded it bad but he must means it's "free for all" over there this pretty much is true. You'd be really surprised how dangerous it can be. Having an african women in my life = I have HOURS of horror stories to tell you. And she comes from some pretty quiet country.

.

 

[kamorra]

I still think that this is a "US thing". Why do you have sitcoms with only black actors? Why do you almost never see a black man with a white wife in a movie? Isn't that racist? Why is there no outrage because of this? Oh and you can swap black with white in both sentences.

 

[Zachack]

That wouldn't be this much of a problem if most black people in videogames weren't either enemies or sidekick stereotypes.

So it's not much of a problem, then? If there's any stereotype it's the "Sarge" one... which is a commander role. Unless there's a real problem in eastern games that I don't see because I'm not enthralled by anime.

But what you're describing fits:

Gears of War
GTA:SA (I guess)
Def Jam Vendetta (see where I'm going with this?)
?

 

[HK-47]

It´s, that what i supposed at least, less attractive for many gamers. A Halle Berry-like black girl is more mainstream than a Nubian girl, for example.

Do you have anything to back this up though? Would you consider Alyx Vance a poor character because her skin takes more after her asian mother than her black father? Does she cease to be a positive black character?

 

[HiResDes]

I think Capcom's inclusion of Sheva, a beautiful darker skinned sidekick, was a smart move because it shows that they are not out to stereotype an entire race of people...Only try to tackle an area that games rarely get set in, if I have any beef with Capcom it is that they were lazy in creating new character types that take advantage of this new setting. The character types all seem to be lifted from the Spaniards in RE4 in some form or fashion, and there is nothing about them particular African or native to the area besides their color.

 

[ultim8p00]

I still think that this is a "US thing". Why do you have sitcoms with only black actors? Why do you almost never see a black man with a white wife in a movie? Isn't that racist? Why is there no outrage because of this? Oh and you can swap black with white in both sentences.

:lol wat?

Replying in this thread is almost certainly a mistake and so I shall keep this short.

While there are many different arguments criss-crossing in this discussion the main point that keeps coming up is "RE4 had the same type of stereotypes but about the Spanish, RE5 dealing with Africans is no different."

The problem with this argument is that while the authorial intent and basic type of imagery being used are the same the semiotic language that is being transmitted through that imagery IS very different.

This is often forgotten but N'gai Croal's original problem with the trailer was never that RE5 was racist, it was that the imagery presented had a connotive meaning that mirrored past cultural racism. He wanted to bring that up early partly to make sure Capcom were aware of it and could do something about it.

Now we have the game and it presents almost identical imagery with exactly the same semiotic meaning. Some sections described in the Eurogamer article are absolutely drawing from the same pool of symbolism that the damaging racial propoganda of the late-19th/early-20th century works did. They are directly evocative of those works and as a result cause the same cultural disquiet among some people that watching those images does.

If you use images like that you have to have a reason for it. "It's just a game" is not a reason, it's shifting focus away from the original mistake. If RE5 has an underlying message about colonialism, US Militarism or even the historical realities of Western land-rape and ethnic 'civilisationism' then the imagery would be justified and absolutely belong there. I have seen no assurances that this is the case and if it isn't then the images are misplaced and damaging to the work itself.

The fundamental point remains that, yes it is different to use these images and stereotypes in a game set in Africa.

This. People seem to be confused here. I don't think anyone actually thinks RE5 is intentionally racist. Using Africa as a setting has an extra baggage attached to it, and likewise, Capcom should have done something extra to compensate for that. Instead, they just basically made the Gagnados from RE4 black, which wouldn't have been a problem if it weren't for 200 years of racism.

 

[Zachack]

This. People seem to be confused here. I don't think anyone actually thinks RE5 is intentionally racist. Using Africa as a setting has an extra baggage attached to it, and likewise, Capcom should have done something extra to compensate for that. Instead, they just basically made the Gagnados from RE4 black, which wouldn't have been a problem if it weren't for 200 years of racism.

If it was a straight re-skin where everyone bad is infected then I doubt there'd be a problem. Most of what Eurogamer is describing comes across as pretty loaded imagery. Like the tribal shield thing.

 

[harSon]

Ok he worded it bad but he must means it's "free for all" over there this pretty much is true. You'd be really surprised how dangerous it can be. Having an african women in my life = I have HOURS of horror stories to tell you. And she comes from some pretty quiet country.

.

I've traveled there plenty and there's no doubt that a lot of it is fucked up but I'm not sure if the entire country filled with xenophobic people who kidnap and rape foreigners, I'm pretty sure that's a recent phenomenon in parts of South Africa. It's alright to cite examples but over generalizations are never cool.

 

[Ranger X]

I've traveled there plenty and there's no doubt that a lot of it is fucked up but I'm not sure if the entire country filled with xenophobic people who kidnap and rape foreigners, I'm pretty sure that's a recent phenomenon in parts of South Africa. It's alright to cite examples but over generalizations are never cool.

Like I said i think he expressed him/herself very badly.

 

[Son of Godzilla]

:lol wat?



This. People seem to be confused here. I don't think anyone actually thinks RE5 is intentionally racist. Using Africa as a setting has an extra baggage attached to it, and likewise, Capcom should have done something extra to compensate for that. Instead, they just basically made the Gagnados from RE4 black, which wouldn't have been a problem if it weren't for 200 years of racism.

I think it's deliberately playing on racial fears in order to create an awkward and discomforting environment for everyone involved. The fact that it's being so manipulative is indeed racist.

If it was a straight re-skin where everyone bad is infected then I doubt there'd be a problem. Most of what Eurogamer is describing comes across as pretty loaded imagery. Like the tribal shield thing.

What? No. Eurogamer is full of itself. There's no way to know if people are infected or not, which is the fucking point of the intro.

 

[ultim8p00]

So it's not much of a problem, then? If there's any stereotype it's the "Sarge" one... which is a commander role. Unless there's a real problem in eastern games that I don't see because I'm not enthralled by anime.

But what you're describing fits:

Gears of War
GTA:SA (I guess)
Def Jam Vendetta (see where I'm going with this?)
?

"That wouldn't be this much of a problem if most black people in videogames weren't either enemies or sidekick stereotypes"

means

"Black enemies wouldn't be such a problem if black people in videogames either weren't enemies or sidekick stereotypes"

But because they are (like in most of the games you listed), that's why it is a problem. You rarely see deep black characters in videogames. And when you do, they look like Sheva or Alyx Vance (i.e mixed) with a lighter skin tone. So no, I don't see where you are going with that. Explain.

Also, I'm talking about videogames in general. I am not talking about Western games vs Japanese games, although this happens to have more of an effect in the West specifically because of racism.

 

[harSon]

So it's not much of a problem, then? If there's any stereotype it's the "Sarge" one... which is a commander role. Unless there's a real problem in eastern games that I don't see because I'm not enthralled by anime.

But what you're describing fits:

Gears of War
GTA:SA (I guess)
Def Jam Vendetta (see where I'm going with this?)
?

Barret in Final Fantasy 7
Chocofro (?) in Final Fantasy 13
Drebin in Metal Gear Solid, probably one of the more legit Black characters in a game and even he has a monkey companion :lol
Dee Jay in Street Fighter
Otis in Dead Rising
Balrog in Street Fighter (The naming is pretty funny if you know where it originates from :lol)

It's obviously gotten a lot better over the years, especially on the western from, but Black characters in the past always seemed to not be completely serious. Japanese developers are improving somewhat, particularly Kojima (Who's always had pretty diverse casts) and Suda.

 

[plagiarize]

Barret in Final Fantasy 7
Chocofro (?) in Final Fantasy 13
Drebin in Metal Gear Solid, probably one of the more legit Black characters in a game and even he has a monkey companion :lol
Dee Jay in Street Fighter
Otis in Dead Rising
Balrog in Street Fighter (The naming is pretty funny if you know where it originates from :lol)

It's obviously gotten a lot better over the years, especially on the western from, but Black characters in the past always seemed to not be completely serious. Japanese developers are improving somewhat, particularly Kojima (Who's always had pretty diverse casts) and Suda.

what was wrong with Otis?

 

[NullPointer]

It's a game, who the fuck cares.

Its a commercial, who the fuck cares.
Its a movie, who the fuck cares.
Its a book, who the fuck cares.
Its just people talking, who the fuck cares.

Sure.

 

[ultim8p00]

If it was a straight re-skin where everyone bad is infected then I doubt there'd be a problem. Most of what Eurogamer is describing comes across as pretty loaded imagery. Like the tribal shield thing.

Well I should have elaborated that a little better. I didn't mean a straight re-skin. I mean't setting-wise. With the gagnados, you are in a Spanish village where most if not all the villagers happen to be infected. With RE5, it's pretty much the same thing, except you are in a remote African village. They maintained the same concept, but swapped settings. There wouldn't nearly this much noise if they kept the same concept but the setting was in some remote Brazilian jungle. If you think about it like that, it's really easy to see that Capcom just didn't think this through.

Boss: "Hey people loved RE4! RE5 needs to be fucking awesome!"
Guy 2: "Hey I have a fucking awesome idea! Let's make it in Africa!"
Boss: "Fuck yeah! That's awesome"
Guy 3: "Shit, let's get started right now! We the player starts the game, let's have these enemies looking all badass and shit, like they wanna kick his ass!"
Guy 4: "Let's have them kidnap some white woman and shit, you know, like in the movies. The player is gonna shit his pants!"
Boss: "Fuck, you guys get to keep your jobs!"

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

that's her.

Nice looking, for some reason she reminds me of Rae Dawn Chong, then again I just watched Commando. lol

 

[selig]

I still think that this is a "US thing". Why do you have sitcoms with only black actors? Why do you almost never see a black man with a white wife in a movie? Isn't that racist? Why is there no outrage because of this? Oh and you can swap black with white in both sentences.

haha, so true. you have the Cosbys, the Winslows, then you have the Bundys and, ah, whatever its name was. Though modern series mix them, like Malcolm in the middle or king of queens. Though then there´s shit like Everyone hates Chris, which is just racist in every scene, makes me cringe.

 

[woxel1]

This is somewhat of an aside (great thread so far guys), but I really liked Drebin in MGS4, except for the fact that he was paired with a monkey and Snake actually thinks the monkey is Drebin and is speaking to him (!?!)

And to everyone who says that sensitivity towards racism is just an American thing, remember that the institutionalized slavery of African peoples was started by Europeans: its effects were global, and they still resonate today.

 

[Zachack]

"That wouldn't be this much of a problem if most black people in videogames weren't either enemies or sidekick stereotypes"

means

"Black enemies wouldn't be such a problem if black people in videogames either weren't enemies or sidekick stereotypes"

But because they are (like in most of the games you listed), that's why it is a problem. You rarely see deep black characters in videogames. And when you do, they look like Sheva or Alyx Vance (i.e mixed) with a lighter skin tone. So no, I don't see where you are going with that. Explain.

First off, the point I was making is that the stereotype you're describing doesn't exist because there aren't many games at all that conform to that stereotype. Yeah, I listed 3 games: One with a sidekick based off what is (for most people) a Super Bowl ad, one that's based on a genre of movie and has a mostly black cast (good or evil), and one based on a record label (again, good or evil). Your trend doesn't exist.

And if you're going to point at Alyx then why not at Dr. Vance? The problem in RE5's case is that Sheva is in direct contrast to everyone else. Alyx is one of, what, 5 human characters that have a script?

 

[Fantasmo]

My father's Croatian and also a big history nut. He could blab constantly about how Serbia tried to wipe out and conquer all of Croatia. Mostly everything Serbian gets him stressful or angry.

Me, I've got Serbian friends whether he likes it or not. This along with plenty of jewish, hispanic, south american, asian, and black... among my many white friends. I've dated white, black, and hispanic, and almost considered marrying both white and hispanic. My brother in law's wife is black.

To me, entertainment is entertainment, and jokes are jokes. Those of my friends who feel the same, we joke about anything and go wherever we want with it.

Racism can be hilarious (Dave Chappelle anyone?) in the right context.

Blatant racism obviously turns my stomach, but that goes with anything violent. It's the violence that makes it all sick.

But in the context of a videogame or movie where the idea is to be entertained, or informed or whatever, I really don't see the point in massaging anyone's ego.

Maybe you guys live in racially charged areas and are being oppressed in some way, in which you have a different viewpoint, but in my circles, it's all fun and games.

I guess it depends on your own experiences or beliefs but I say "meh" to toning down the game or throwing random white people in just because. This is an M game and it's supposed to be controversial and tough to swallow in MANY ways.

Isn't that the whole point of RE?

 

[Zachack]

Barret in Final Fantasy 7
Chocofro (?) in Final Fantasy 13
Drebin in Metal Gear Solid, probably one of the more legit Black characters in a game and even he has a monkey companion :lol
Dee Jay in Street Fighter
Otis in Dead Rising
Balrog in Street Fighter (The naming is pretty funny if you know where it originates from :lol)

It's obviously gotten a lot better over the years, especially on the western from, but Black characters in the past always seemed to not be completely serious. Japanese developers are improving somewhat, particularly Kojima (Who's always had pretty diverse casts) and Suda.

Dee Jay was evil/sidekick?
Drebin wasn't a sidekick, unless you're going to make that term really broad.
And I'd tend to say that Otis was the "sarge" stereotype.

 

[EmCeeGramr]

Isn't that the whole point of RE?

The point of RE is to fumble around while listening to bad voice-acting while shooting monsters. That's the thing that gets it an M-rating, not any kind of controversial issues.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Anyone ever watch the awesomely bad Hell of the Living Dead?

I think it's more of a situation of where you bring your own experience into the game. We often go, oh damn that was wrong. It's not that the developers are racist, its just based on their experience, it doesn't strike the developers as anything wrong. I mean the Spanish situation is the same. I felt the same way when I saw clips of RE4 the first time, it was the same feeling I got with RE5. It hasn't stopped me from playing either of them.

Also how many of us have a day to day experience with Africa? What are we basing are own judgments on?

I don't begrudge anyone for being turned off by it, based on their own experiences and feelings, but I don't feel its racist.

 

[harSon]

Dee Jay was evil/sidekick?
Drebin wasn't a sidekick, unless you're going to make that term really broad.
And I'd tend to say that Otis was the "sarge" stereotype.

I was just expanding on a list of characters that I felt were stereotypical, not necessarily under your subgroups, just stereotypical in nature.

 

[Fantasmo]

The point of RE is to fumble around while listening to bad voice-acting while shooting monsters. That's the thing that gets it an M-rating, not any kind of controversial issues.

Bull.

RE1.. various viruses, Raccoon City, zombies.. who survived aside from a few protagonists and Wesker? Every game was always about experiments and wiping out groups of people or creating a super race.

Campy or not.

 

[Night_Trekker]

Okay, so that sucks, obviously. Its happened to me as well, in a few countries.

But honestly now, people thinking you are rich is not the same as people hammering you day-in, day-out.

In your heart and soul, do you feel really discriminated against in that context?

Are you... doubting how I actually feel about a given situation, despite the fact that I just told you how I felt? On what grounds do you do that? (Aside from "I have it so much worse so my grievances outweigh yours. I win!")

Yes, I do feel discriminated against... because I was. I'm fucking sick of the idea that I'm assumed to be an oppressive, affluent racist because my ancestors (I couldn't chose them!) happened to be mostly white. That's racist bullshit and there's no justification for it.

I don't judge people by the color of their skin. There's no excuse for ignorance like that.

And again, ignorance is exclusive to no social or ethnic group. I recognize that and, in my daily life, I try not to let it get to me.

They assumed you were rich and hit you up for cash, and preyed on the racism they assumed you had.

Whose fault is that, that I was assumed to be a racist because of the color of my skin? Do you even think about the shit you post?

Its not quuuuuuite the same as assuming you stole something, assuming you killed somebody, assumed you are up to no good, assumed you are drunk or high, assumed you got your car because you're a drug dealer. Situations are specific and different for everybody. Racism happens all the time to lots of people. But, SOME races GENERALLY are loaded with stereotypes that make people's lives significantly worse, in your neighborhood and mine, that some punks on the street assuming they are rich.

Oh yeah, I'm sure every bit of that happens to you specifically every day. It couldn't be that you're cherry-picking the ignorant behavior of some white individuals and expanding it to misrepresent it as a massive social problem, could it?

We're not trying to determine who has it worse and, by extension, who has the most right to complain about being victimized. Well, I'm not. I'm not sure about you.

Ha! "I keep getting mistaken for being rich and successful!" Truly we have all felt prejudice's sting.

Did you miss the part where I said I'm assumed to be a racist for no reason at all if I don't share my money with people I don't know, despite the fact that you quoted it? You fucking idiot.

 

[GhaleonQ]

If you deny that games are, like other media, able to convey images that have power and possess meaning, and that they can serve to inform and share ideas; if you state that games are 'just games', then you are condemning video games to never progress past the point of toys, and they will never advance as a storytelling medium. If, on the other hand, you wish to see games tell stories in new and interesting ways, and possibly emerge as an art form that is taken seriously, then you have to accept the negative consequences of it along with the positive ones.

See, I think it's people similar to you who keep art infantile. A sturdy mind can appreciate that art may not make universal claims. I bet that a zombie video game does not make any sweeping value judgments, and that any particularities of the African villages are not expressed in claims that all villages or all Africans or all African villages are the same.

Also, the last time that I asked I did not receive 1-to-1 comparisons of Resident Evil to racist films. I think that the strongest example was "black guy grabs woman," which is amusingly weak. I also have not seen any arguments for why the supposed "racist imagery" of the past trumps the established zombie imagery. Stalinist imagery of the past, for instance, does not trump heroic military imagery when I view a film featuring a soldier. I do not feel that a marching, shooting character hearkens back to ugly propaganda pushed out by Soviet filmmakers. When LittleBigPlanet used "Battle On The Ice," I can recognize that it doesn't support the music's goal or the propaganda film for which it was written. Media Molecule are probably not racist communists.

 

[ultim8p00]

that's her.

make it happen Capcom

First off, the point I was making is that the stereotype you're describing doesn't exist because there aren't many games at all that conform to that stereotype. Yeah, I listed 3 games: One with a sidekick based off what is (for most people) a Super Bowl ad, one that's based on a genre of movie and has a mostly black cast (good or evil), and one based on a record label (again, good or evil). Your trend doesn't exist.

And if you're going to point at Alyx then why not at Dr. Vance? The problem in RE5's case is that Sheva is in direct contrast to everyone else. Alyx is one of, what, 5 human characters that have a script?

The stereotype I'm describing? What stereotype? I didn't describe any. I said black chars are usually enemies (i.e background characters, cannon fodder type characters, nameless guys that are just part of the game) or stereotype sidekick type characters. I didn't describe a specific stereotype. Here's a challenge to you. Name me any black character in videogames I bet he will fall into one of the groups I mention or some variation thereof.

Alyx Vance: mixed, sidekick
Sheva: mixed, sidekick
50 Cent game: ...
Cole: football/sports stereotype
Dr. Vance: background character, "inactive" role, gets killed off
CJ: Gangster
Lucky Glauber: fucking plays basketball in a fighting game :lol
Sean: Gimped shoto clone
Heavy D!: again super cool sports guy with glasses

Black characters are usually just not very serious characters, for the most part. Now, I am not saying that this is the case for EVERY game (e.g Crackdown?, Far Cry 2,..uhm...?) but there is clearly a trend here.

Either way, I hope RE5 doesn't get slammed too much and I hope Capcom at least gets something good out of all this.

 

[Deleted member 30609]

My father's Croatian and also a big history nut. He could blab constantly about how Serbia tried to wipe out and conquer all of Croatia. Mostly everything Serbian gets him stressful or angry.

Me, I've got Serbian friends whether he likes it or not. This along with plenty of jewish, hispanic, south american, asian, and black... among my many white friends. I've dated white, black, and hispanic, and almost considered marrying both white and hispanic. My brother in law's wife is black.

To me, entertainment is entertainment, and jokes are jokes. Those of my friends who feel the same, we joke about anything and go wherever we want with it.

Racism can be hilarious (Dave Chappelle anyone?) in the right context.

Blatant racism obviously turns my stomach, but that goes with anything violent. It's the violence that makes it all sick.

But in the context of a videogame or movie where the idea is to be entertained, or informed or whatever, I really don't see the point in massaging anyone's ego.

Maybe you guys live in racially charged areas and are being oppressed in some way, in which you have a different viewpoint, but in my circles, it's all fun and games.

I guess it depends on your own experiences or beliefs but I say "meh" to toning down the game or throwing random white people in just because. This is an M game and it's supposed to be controversial and tough to swallow in MANY ways.

Isn't that the whole point of RE?

Well said.

 

[sonicmj1]

See, I think it's people similar to you who keep art infantile. A sturdy mind can appreciate that art may not make universal claims. I bet that a zombie video game does not make any sweeping value judgments, and that any particularities of the African villages are not expressed in claims that all villages or all Africans or all African villages are the same.

Also, the last time that I asked I did not receive 1-to-1 comparisons of Resident Evil to racist films. I think that the strongest example was "black guy grabs woman," which is amusingly weak. I also have not seen any arguments for why the supposed "racist imagery" of the past trumps the established zombie imagery. Stalinist imagery of the past, for instance, does not trump heroic military imagery when I view a film featuring a soldier. I do not feel that a marching, shooting character hearkens back to ugly propaganda pushed out by Soviet filmmakers. When LittleBigPlanet used "Battle On The Ice," I can recognize that it doesn't support the music's goal or the propaganda film for which it was written. Media Molecule are probably not racist communists.

Once again, I don't believe that Resident Evil 5 is a racist game. I don't claim that it consciously makes sweeping value judgments. I merely believe that it reinforces negative stereotypes, and contains a lot of loaded imagery. The Eurogamer article quoted in the OP mentions two of those examples, and implies that many others exist. Further examples can be seen in the posted TGS gameplay video where our heroes are attacked by spear-wielding natives in grass skirts with tribal masks and shields.

I don't believe that all images of this sort must be avoided at all costs. They just deserve to be tackled intelligently. "It's just a game" isn't a valid defense of this imagery, unless you believe that video games are different from other media in that the images they convey don't carry meaning and weight. Such a belief further implies that games are completely incapable of telling any kind of meaningful tale.

The marching soldier can be interpreted in a Stalinist way or a modern heroic way, or, perhaps, in both ways simultaneously. Whatever way the image is perceived, it carries some sort of idea, and it can be perceived in more than one way. Pretending that the images we see in our games either MUST be perceived according to authorial intent (a laughable proposition), or that the images don't carry any weight outside of gameplay context, hurts our understanding of the medium, in my view.