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Eurogamer: NX is different, and different is Nintendo's best option.

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KAL2006

Banned
I completely agree with Eurogamer here. Nintendo are basically cornered here. If they compete in the arms race with Sony and Microsoft the pie they share from that market is not enough especially because that audience have their consoles already and waiting for their iterative update.

The only option is to just go full on cheap as a secondary console as well as family kids console and focus their software output on one system. And the idea of just making the handheld with a TV out option to do this makes sense. If they went full on cheap console and it was just a NVIDIA Shield TV people would be dissapointed I am guessing adding at 540p screen and at battery wouldn't drive the cost up that much to make it a hybrid and give it that gimmick.
 

catbrush

Member
you can offer novelty while still bringing in the people who want to play FIFA, COD and GTA. they're not mutually exclusive things.

all i know is if little billy sees that he can't play the latest and greatest in third party releases on nintendo's new system, regardless of the novelty of being a hybrid system, then he won't want one.

If little billy wants the FIFAs, CODs and GTAs he probably already has a PS4.
 

18-Volt

Member
I agree. No matter what they do, even creating best hardware with amazing graphical power, some companies (like, Bethesda) would never support Nintendo. They need to get whatever 3rd party they can get and to do that they need to have a gigantic userbase. They can't get a "gigantic userbase" with a PS4 (or Neo) clone.
 

Dambrosi

Banned
Technically, but you're in denial if you think there's a chance of it being untrue. Everyone is corroborating it, including WSJ which has a 100% track record as far as I know.
Oh, I've got no doubt that Nintendo could legendarily screw the pooch with this concept and destroy their legacy entirely, or come up with the new Wii and bring a new Golden Age of console handheld hybrid gaming. This really could go either way.

But what we're hearing sounds far too much like an Nvidia Shield to me, and I don't like it, no siree. I thought Nintendo had more pride than that, which is why I'm sceptical.
 

Malakai

Member
The Wii launched in a world without smartphones, or digital distribution, or streaming video, or... At some point pointing to the Wii as proof positive that Nintendo has their shit together is like the guy at the used car dealership talking about how he was a high school quarterback and prom king.

In all actuality, the Wii was proof that Nintendo did have there "shit" together. They didn't go bankrupt like so many other publishers and developers. They correctly predicted that making HD games were going to be expensive. Nintendo didn't loose billions and billions of dollars subsidizing gaming consoles that overheated and barely did HD games like Sony and Microsoft did. Furthermore, to disregard the success of the Wii attracting a "difference audience" is asinine.
 

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
What has smartphones to do with a home console?

The next sentence in the post you quoted contains the metaphor which explains the relevance of the first sentence: simply, I think technological iteration has become so past that a success ten years ago is so much in the distant past that it has little bearing on what is going on today.

But since you raised the question, another argument that I did not advance in the first post but is valid is that the NX design as described by Eurogamer is very clearly a reaction to smartphones. It's using a smartphone GPU. It is not backwards compatible with their ""real hardware games"". It is supposedly compatible in some way with their smartphone software. By merging their handhelds and home consoles in this innovative way, they get around the "I don't bother carrying my 3DS with me, but I'd prefer to use my TV at home" problem--a problem created because all-in-one smartphones eroded the value proposition of other things you can carry with you. The company as a whole has pivoted to recognizing the value of smartphone software.

Notwithstanding the financial ownership of Pokemon GO, they've had quite possibly their biggest cultural impact in 10 years or more with it and that's something that could only be leveraged by the real-world social virality of the game driven largely by the fact that only smartphones have data access, download-anywhere, the sensor array that can support the game. It was also made in collaboration with a company that's very much borne of the post-mobile US startup culture. Niantic was basically able to loss lead for a long time assembling a database of points of interest (classic startup: their core business model is dinky little games, but if their VC overlords ever force a pivot, they can sell the information to businesses) and that set the foundation to be able to execute Pokemon GO. Obviously there's not an infinite number of rabbits to be pulled out of the hat, but if you're Nintendo, this is a powerful sign about how to make a phenomenon today and the answer isn't a 95 Metacritic polished AAA experience, it's a clunky barebones thing that mostly coasts on their brand and the power and reach of the smartphone platform. I am certain these are lessons they're thinking about as they develop software.

So I think it's very clear that smartphones have greatly influenced how people think about launching a home console in 2016.

In all actuality, the Wii was proof that Nintendo did have there "shit" together. They didn't go bankrupt like so many other publishers and developers. They correctly predicted that making HD games were going to be expensive. Nintendo didn't loose billions and billions of dollars subsidizing gaming consoles that overheated and barely did HD games like Sony and Microsoft did. Furthermore, to disregard the success of the Wii attracting a "difference audience" is asinine.

I'm not super sure who it is you're replying to, but my point was not that the Wii was a fluke or anything--it was very obviously a well-executed plan that was highly successful. My point is that the world has changed since the Wii, and as the post suggests, it's changed so much that I don't think it's all that useful to say "Well, Nintendo knocked it out of the park with the Wii, so they clearly know what they're doing". Blackberry knocked it out of the park with their platform too, and then the world changed. This is not pessimism on my part, perhaps the NX will be very successful, and I think the information so far suggests it's at least informed by the changing world. But my point is 100% the high school quarterback analogy. At some point no one is going to believe "I coulda been a contender!" with a 10 year old graph as, like, viable.
 

BGBW

Maturity, bitches.
One has to remember that the Wii U had no focus.

  • They went for the weaker system route like the Wii yet tried to sell it as being on par with the competition and great for AAA ports.
  • It was a traditional console (they even called the controller the Gamepad to hark back to the old days) and yet was different.
  • They released it with a Wii Sports-like game with Nitnendoland to demonstrate the system, but it requires tutorials for each game (Wii Sports was instantly understandable) and was based on properties appealing to hardcore Nintendo fans rather than casual gamers (one was based on a Japan only property even!). It's other launch title was a New Super Mario Bros game that was coming out only months after the last one (NSMB2 for 3DS).
  • They made a big song and dance that it was energy efficient and then didn't even mention that point anywhere in the marketing. Not even the box! Not saying that's something that would sell it, but when it was apparently one of the primary goals when designing the thing you'd think they at least mention it somewhere outside of an Iwata Asks interview.
  • TVii lol
    [*[Two GamePad support is coming lol

I liked it and enjoyed the games that came out for it, but it was a complete misstep for Nintendo. People call Wii the anomaly because of sales graphs, but honestly, I'd say the Wii U is the real anomaly.
 

DryvBy

Member
Yup. Doing what Sony and Microsoft are doing is the surefire way to screw themselves.

They should probably quit making consoles then because they're not really doing amazing in that category.

And lately even their games haven't been amazing. Zelda looks good but that's 1 out of how many this year?
 
Congrats on being the first hysterical Nintendo fan to try and derail the thread by throwing out "Nintendo is doomed!" when no one is saying that.
The article itself is indirectly criticising Nintendo throughout and even mention them going 3Rd party.
 

wapplew

Member
The industry doesn't have space for 3 platform holders in my opinion (4 if you count PC, since mobile doesn't really share their library).
If you see the mobile space, Android and ios share the market very well, but any other market like Windows phone is dead.

One of the 3 will bailout of the home console market, I wished it was Microsoft but alas.

Nintendo is not out yet, there's still hope.
 
The industry doesn't have space for 3 platform holders in my opinion (4 if you count PC, since mobile doesn't really share their library).
If you see the mobile space, Android and ios share the market very well, but any other market like Windows phone is dead.

One of the 3 will bailout of the home console market, I wished it was Microsoft but alas.

If the dock is nothing more than TV-out, I'd argue Nintendo is it. Virtually nothing about what's been leaked/rumoured so far screams "hybrid" to me.
 

maxcriden

Member
I'm just saying Nintendo's stuck between a rock and a hard place. They (supposedly) can't compete with Sony and MS directly but at the same time being cheap and different didn't help them at all with the Wii U. Being cheap and different isn't enough.

Wii U was relatively cheap, but I'd argue it wasn't cheap to consumers' eyes. It also wasn't different enough, though. It was a home console with a touchscreen controller and marked the half-measures that define this gen for Nintendo on the hardware front. It was literally halfway between a console and HH, and couldn't sell market appeal on either front. (I love the Wii U, but I acknowledge these issues readily.)
 
What has smartphones to do with a home console?

Smartphone gaming both has the potential to be a booster - Pokemon Go and similar successes would bring Nintendo back into the limelight - a place they haven't been since the Wii was sold out for almost a year or two straight.

But it's also a competitor. Smartphone gaming can be a compelling experience to a great deal of people, and that draws attention away from dedicated gaming hardware.

I'm not sure what special drink people like to down before posting around these parts that makes them think there's no give and take between smartphone gaming and the rest of the industry, but rest assured, it exists.

Wii U was relatively cheap, but I'd argue it wasn't cheap to consumers' eyes. It also wasn't different enough, though. It was a home console with a touchscreen controller and marked the half-measures that define this gen for Nintendo on the hardware front. It was literally halfway between a console and HH, and couldn't sell market appeal on either front. (I love the Wii U, but I acknowledge these issues readily.)

Relatively cheap to what?
 

DNAbro

Member
They should probably quit making consoles then because they're not really doing amazing in that category.

And lately even their games haven't been amazing. Zelda looks good but that's 1 out of how many this year?

Pokemon looks fantastic. Also it's not like they are even trying to support the Wii U or 3DS atm. They are probably going all in on NX.
 

Gator86

Member
The article itself is indirectly criticising Nintendo throughout and even mention them going 3Rd party.

How is that doomed? Will Nintendo cease to exist if they do that? Will they immediately go bankrupt and liquidate all their assets? Saying a company is doing poorly and may have to pivot is not saying a company is doomed. Pushing all criticism of Nintendo into DOOOOOOOOOOOMED is just inventing a strawman for you to attack.
 

Schnozberry

Member
But they had the right idea once. Now obviously it won't work. They need to get out an idea that has appeal. (Not exactly sure a handheld that plugs on a TV is that, but we'll see when it's officially revealed.)

Philosophically I understand why Nintendo would go this way. A portable doesn't look out of place running mobile games and apps, and they can retain their footprint in dedicated consoles by making it powerful enough to run full fledged software at home or on the go. It's an attempt to cast the widest net possible into multiple market segments. I admire them for trying. Time will tell if it's good enough to win people over.
 

maxcriden

Member
It is not backwards compatible with their ""real hardware games"".

Just to clarify, despite not being backwards compatible with the most recent generation of "real HW games," I think there's every expectation VC featuring every other previous Nintendo platform, i.e. all VC currently on the Wii U (and perhaps 3DS) will be available. So in that sense the previous real HW games will be there. I believe Nintendo did say previously that they expect to fold current Wii U VC architecture into future systems, and that makes sense given that current Wii U includes HH and console VC (especially stuff like DS VC which was always a conspicuously weird fit for console play). Regardless, I take your point in context and agree. Just wanted to clarify this for those who might expect no BC/VC of any kind.

Relatively cheap to what?

Relatively cheap in comparison to its console competition. At launch the competitors were $50 + $150 more expensive. Or maybe it was $100 and $200 at that point, I guess a price drop occurred for Wii U the September before the PS/X releases.
 
They should probably quit making consoles then because they're not really doing amazing in that category.

And lately even their games haven't been amazing. Zelda looks good but that's 1 out of how many this year?

What? Some WiiU games are some of the very best games this gen.
Might want to play some to do yourself a favour.

Right now it's probably all aimed towards the NX reveal though.
 

heringer

Member
They need to differentiate themselves from the competition, yes, but also actually offer an attractive product; being different is not enough

I agree, but the best way to achieve that is to make the library more attractive, which they are definitely doing by focusing their efforts in one single platform.
 

Armigr

Member
The Wii launched in a world without smartphones, or digital distribution, or streaming video, or... At some point pointing to the Wii as proof positive that Nintendo has their shit together is like the guy at the used car dealership talking about how he was a high school quarterback and prom king.

The Gamecube launched with every advantage available to it and was still a notable failure. Falling in line with other gaming hardware is a strategy that hasn't paid off for Nintendo in decades and they have no reason to return to it now.
 
The Gamecube launched with every advantage available to it and was still a notable failure. Falling in line with other gaming hardware is a strategy that hasn't paid off for Nintendo in decades and they have no reason to return to it now.

The Gamecube failed in spite of its hardware prowess, not because of it.
 

KORNdoggy

Member
Simply making a powerhouse console won't bring those games.

who said powerhouse? just something that can be easily ported too. ultimately it's userbase that dictates whether third parties see the value in porting their games... but a console capable of actually running the games themselves in the first place without much work sure as hell helps that decision along.

and as i said, they're not mutually exclusive. you can have novelty while still having an environment that is appealing to the third party devs/pubs of the world. you don't have to cut them off completely for the sake of a gimmick.
 

K' Dash

Member
They should probably quit making consoles then because they're not really doing amazing in that category.

And lately even their games haven't been amazing. Zelda looks good but that's 1 out of how many this year?

Um, they have the strongest first party offering this gen, the HD twins are laughable in this respect.
 

LordRaptor

Member
Just to clarify, despite not being backwards compatible with the most recent generation of "real HW games," I think there's every expectation VC featuring every other previous Nintendo platform, i.e. all VC currently on the Wii U (and perhaps 3DS) will be available. So in that sense the previous real HW games will be there. I believe Nintendo did say previously that they expect to fold current Wii U VC architecture into future systems, and that makes sense given that current Wii U includes HH and console VC (especially stuff like DS VC which was always a conspicuously weird fit for console play).

3DS ports of titles like Smash Bros and Hyrule Warriors with quick turnaround times from their WiiU parents, and the port of Xenoblade and release of SNES titles for 3DS would all appear to suggest that Nintendo have an existing PPC -> ARM working development chain
 

jroc74

Phone reception is more important to me than human rights
I'm just saying Nintendo's stuck between a rock and a hard place. They (supposedly) can't compete with Sony and MS directly but at the same time being cheap and different didn't help them at all with the Wii U. Being cheap and different isn't enough.

Pretty much this.
 

Schnozberry

Member
I'm just saying Nintendo's stuck between a rock and a hard place. They (supposedly) can't compete with Sony and MS directly but at the same time being cheap and different didn't help them at all with the Wii U. Being cheap and different isn't enough.

The Wii U wasn't cheap, and it wasn't all that different either.
 

Armigr

Member
The Gamecube failed in spite of it's hardware prowess, not because of it.

That's exactly my point. Being a more powerful console than the PS2 did the Gamecube no favours, so why would Nintendo return to that strategy now? The market is even more cutthroat in 2016 than it was when the Gamecube launched, so it would be an even more risky endeavour.
 

maxcriden

Member
And here I was thinking it was their games that made Nintendo special and unique.

You're right, but there would be far fewer and less diverse of those games in that scenario.

3DS ports of titles like Smash Bros and Hyrule Warriors with quick turnaround times from their WiiU parents, and the port of Xenoblade and release of SNES titles for 3DS would all appear to suggest that Nintendo have an existing PPC -> ARM working development chain

I'm a bit dense on the tech side of things, sorry--how does that relate to what I said? Just to confirm that VC forwards compatibility is likely?
 

ksamedi

Member
.


I'm not super sure who it is you're replying to, but my point was not that the Wii was a fluke or anything--it was very obviously a well-executed plan that was highly successful. My point is that the world has changed since the Wii, and as the post suggests, it's changed so much that I don't think it's all that useful to say "Well, Nintendo knocked it out of the park with the Wii, so they clearly know what they're doing". Blackberry knocked it out of the park with their platform too, and then the world changed. This is not pessimism on my part, perhaps the NX will be very successful, and I think the information so far suggests it's at least informed by the changing world. But my point is 100% the high school quarterback analogy. At some point no one is going to believe "I coulda been a contender!" with a 10 year old graph as, like, viable.

I believe they do have a talent for creating successful mass market products in changing conditions. Let's not forget about the NES which was the equivalent of Wii for its time.

The NX sure seems like they are going in the right direction as well.
 
Relatively cheap in comparison to its console competition. At launch the competitors were $50 + $150 more expensive. Or maybe it was $100 and $200 at that point, I guess a price drop occurred for Wii U the September before the PS/X releases.

But in comparison to the 360/PS3 (which the WiiU was getting all of its ports from), the WiiU was at least $50 to $100 more expensive.

The WiiU's biggest competitor was a used Xbox 360. I don't know how you could call the WiiU "cheap" in that market.
 

maxcriden

Member
It would fail, and it would be pointless. We already have two of those types of consoles, and that is plenty. We need that 3rd option that is willing to get weird.

However, I actually don't see NX as being different enough from what's being described. It sounds like a standard handheld with an extra output option. I don't really picture it selling more than 3DS, since the dedicated handheld market is not really positioned for growth right now. If you consider NX a home console, then sure selling say, 35-40m, would be a great boost over Wii U, but there are no handheld numbers to add to that. NX is all or nothing, unless there's another SKU we don't know about.

I see your point, but until we know more about the dock and whether it juices up the output a bit, it's unknown whether it's simply a TV output only. I'm hoping there will be some of the SCD or similar tech in there to make it more than just that, but we shall see.

But in comparison to the 360/PS3 (which the WiiU was getting all of its ports from), the WiiU was at least $50 to $100 more expensive.

The WiiU's biggest competitor was a used Xbox 360. I don't know how you could call the WiiU "cheap" in that market.

Maybe in execution and to some players, or even most players, but surely the Wii U was intended to be a competitor for the current consoles and not the previous ones. I'm not saying players saw this as a worthwhile value proposition, but as Wii U is part of the current generation of consoles, its competitors are intended to be PS4/XB1, as evidenced by current console games coming out on Wii U (agreed that they are mainly first party games) concurrent with those releasing on PS/X.
 

Floody

Member
I do think a handheld-home console hybrid (that's what the current rumours are right?) is actually a good idea and if priced right would make a great alternative to a PS4/Xbox/PC. Also having Nintendo's handheld and home console offering all on one device should attract a good number of people, Pokemon alone can probably stop it from being as much of a flop as the Wii U.
 

jrcbandit

Member
The portability is the only reason people would even care about 3rd party games, as it will be the only way to play them on the go (ps4 remote play is a subpar experience). Otherwise, if it was a traditional console with PS4 level graphics, why exactly would anyone care about playing 3rd party games on it? Gamers already have a PS4, Xbox One, or gaming PC, possibly all 3 and likely 2 out of 3. Their friends will already be playing games on these existing platforms, so no incentive to play 3rd party games on Nintendo platforms other than doing something different like a portable console that comes close to the living room experience.
 

phanphare

Banned
The Wii launched in a world without smartphones, or digital distribution, or streaming video, or... At some point pointing to the Wii as proof positive that Nintendo has their shit together is like the guy at the used car dealership talking about how he was a high school quarterback and prom king.

at a certain point the people who continuously downplay Nintendo's success with the Wii and DS sound like the schlubs at a high school reunion who stand in the corner all salty about what certain classmates have done since high school
 

DarkKyo

Member
It makes them boring in my eyes but everyone has their own set of expectations from Nintendo. To some it's awesome, to others it's safe or boring.
Lol so if they did the same thing as everyone else it would be exciting, but when they innovate and explore new ways to play and capture the consumer's interest they are boring? What kind of bizzaro logic is this?
And here I was thinking it was their games that made Nintendo special and unique.

It's a combination of both software and hardware. Could Wii Sports have been the phenomenon it was without the wiimote/motion controls? Half the reason NDS games were so unique and diverse is because the touch screen/stylus and dual screen capabilities allowed for so many new approaches to gameplay and design.
 

El Topo

Member
The controller/tablet was gimmick that wasn't fully implemented and it came to late. I bet if the wii-u launched near the same time of the 360 and PS3 it would've had a different fate.

You don't say. If Nokia had released their smartphones six years earlier they would've had a different fate as well.
 

wapplew

Member
That's exactly my point. Being a more powerful console than the PS2 did the Gamecube no favours, so why would Nintendo return to that strategy now? The market is even more cutthroat in 2016 than it was when the Gamecube launched, so it would be an even more risky endeavour.

GameCube era don't have that much multiplat, FF is exclusive, DQ is exclusive.
Now everything third party want to be on as many platform as possible, if they make a good enough hardware, thrid party will not ignore it.
Who say don't have a chance? The biggest problem is they are 3 years late.
 

yllekz

Banned
I'd like if NX was a controller shell (containing an OS/all the circuitry) that used your smartphone as the display. Then the dock can upscale it to the TV.
 

BGBW

Maturity, bitches.
Wii U was different

Not the same game. Not the same content.

For a system supposedly different, they sure wanted to advertise it as a place for all the third party games on the competitors machines to come to it.
 

scitek

Member
NX is Nintendo's only realistic option. Doubling down on pure handhelds can only lead to diminishing returns at best. Competing with Sony and Microsoft would be even less likely to yield success, and more to the point, it would be pointless. The best route to graphically shiny Nintendo games delivered in a conventional format is for Nintendo to exit hardware altogether and become a third-party developer, addressing the biggest possible audience. If that is what the world really wants, then NX will fail and that is what it shall have.

I still don't think Nintendo will go third-party if the NX flops.
 
Lol so if they did the same thing as everyone else it would be exciting, but when they innovate and explore new ways to play and capture the consumer's interest they are boring? What kind of bizzaro logic is this?
Like I said everyone has their own expectations of what Nintendo should do. Doesn't make your opinion wrong or mines either, the market will dictate which party is correct. I wish Nintendo nothing but the best but I would've preferred Nintendo coming out with a bad ass machine getting back the 3rd party support and doing a rally back to greatness. I mean shit there was a time where Nintendo got FF mainlines and SF games.
If Nokia had released their smartphones six years earlier they would've had a different fate as well.

Indeed my friend.
 
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