FunkyMunkey
Banned
WTF generalizations?
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Family of Florida boy killed by Neighborhood Watch seeks arrest
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WTF generalizations?
ShinNL
Member
I agree with this post 100%. I never liked the huge emphasis on the races. I've followed the story from the beginning and I'm quite colorblind myself. I saw the lack of justice. But then people put so much emphasis on the race issue, it made me think that the people who do that might be the ones themselves who have prejudices. Because if race is all you see, then you're not colorblind yourself. I personally don't see the difference in this crime whether it was a hate crime or not.
I think you missed the fact that he was wearing a hoodie.
maybe he was crying because he thought he might be going to jail for his fuck up?
MightyHealthy
Banned
Pretty much; here's an earlier post of mine on this:
Eh, I feel like jumping to that sort of a conclusion off an extremely fuzzy 1sec track is a bit much, he could have said a lot of things.
Also, who says coons? I thought it was just old people
Devolution
Member
Live in the right (wrong) place, you will hear it all.
I've heard people say coons.
Someone with some fucking sense could be in charge of toting the gun around for Neighborhood Watch, for starters.
What's important to state here is that, even according to a former state Congressman who helped pass FL's "Stand Your Ground" gun law, Zimmerman lost his defense the instant he claimed he was going to pursue Martin. Not to mention, the police also told him to stay put. Even if Martin did instigate Zimmerman in some fashion, I sincerely doubt it would have elevated to the level that it did had Zimmerman just listened to the fucking dispatcher. He wasn't even in danger.
This. Makes no sense to me you can try to use fl. Lame stand your ground defense when you are the initiator.
Also- Florida, time to modify your concealed carry laws. The last thing Zimmerman should have been carrying is a gun. It's called neighborhood watch, not neighborhood vigilante.
soundscream
Member
Your going to have to differ your nehinors to the south on this point. You have brought up many times in this thread that you haven't experienced any overt racism up in Canada. Not saying your viewpoint is invalid but you should take into consideration we might have a better perspective than you on this topic.
Who even follows the Black Panthers?
You know what? Let me see what Westboro Baptist Church has to say about this. I need my radical news straight for the source!
I've been trying to avoid commenting on this thread for a while now, mostly because a lot of the comments here have done quite well at raising my blood pressure, but here I am.
My thoughts?
Race: It's pretty clear that the crime was, at the least, racially motivated. Zimmerman has a history of calling the police. Some 40 times throughout a single year, mostly reporting "suspicious" black males. That alone firmly establishes his racial bias, even without the garbled 911 call where he supposedly called him a "fucking coon."
Outside of, at the least, establishing Zimmerman's motives for stalking and confronting a black teen walking down the street in his neighborhood, race isn't the real issue here.
The Police: Their behavior is despicable. Altering witness statements, or out right ignoring key witnesses, failing to follow protocol. It's horrible. Failing to, at the least, bring Zimmerman in for questioning is deplorable. If they had done that, maybe they could have ascertained if Zimmerman was in a stable frame of mind at the time (ie, not under the influence of drugs and alcohol himself, like he claimed, from a cursory observation of Trayvon, that the youth was under the influence of).
Zimmerman: His "self defense" claim is shady, looking at what we know of the case, and regardless, he willingly chose to disregard the advice of the 911 operator, and took it upon himself to leave his vehicle, and confront Trayvon. Everything that happened after he disregarded that order is on him. No one else is to blame for this.
Stripping race and names out of the scenario, this is what we have:
1) Person A sees Person B walking down the street. It's raining. Person B has a hoodie on, but the hood isn't up.
2) Person A is suspicious of Person B, not understanding what this person is doing in their neighborhood.
3) Person A calls 911, and reports Person B. Person A follows Person B in his car. 911 tells Person A not to follow Person B, and wait for the police to arrive.
4) Person A disregards this order.
5) Person B notices that they are being followed by Person A, a complete stranger, and proceeds to flee from this stranger who has already confronted him once.
6) Person A pursues Person B on foot, and eventually corners him.
7) Once again being confronted by this complete stranger, Person B has no choice but to try and escape. Only, Person A has a gun. Person B is unarmed.
8) Person B attempts to escape Person A, and a scuffle breaks out.
9) Person A then shoots Person B, killing him.
10) When the police arrive, Person A claims self defense.
Looking at the sequence of events, and not considering the race of the people, the only thing that matters is that a horrible event took place, and a 17 year old boy is dead.
I do, however, think Zimmerman's ignorant views of blacks lead to this, and he should be held accountable.
As a young black man, I've grown up with my fair share of having to deal with racism and discrimination. I've certainly had many "talks" with my mom about her views on race, and while I certainly understand her perspective (she grew up in the 40's and 50's and 60's, when race relations were at their most volatile), I never once used her experiences to paint my perspective of other races (ie, whites).
Zimmerman can try and blame his actions on anything he wants, but what it boils down to is what he chose to do in a situation he, himself, orchestrated. If he had ignored Trayvon Martin, this is what would have happened: Trayvon would have gone back to his father's house and enjoyed the game with his family. Zimmerman would have continued about his business and went home.
If Zimmerman had simply called the cops, and let them do their jobs, this is what would have happened: The police would have arrived, and if Trayvon was still in the area, he would have been approached and questioned. After clearing the air, he more than likely would have gotten back home. Why? Because, unlike an overzealous "neighborhood watch captain" with delusions of grandeur, the police probably wouldn't have confronted Trayvon with their weapons drawn, and got into a fight with him., thus leading to his death.
All this boils down to is this whole horrible situation is Zimmerman's fault. There is no justifying his actions, because he only had to make one choice that night: ignore Trayvon Martin. Maybe two choices: Ignore Trayvon Martin, or let the police do their jobs after he called them. He did neither, and now a 17 year old has lost his life, and Zimmerman has to deal with the consequences of that, whatever they may be.
People are focusing too much on the race angle, when it's really as simple as a man being rightfully investigated and punished for a crime he committed. And I do believe he committed murder, but fortunately for him, that will be up to a jury to decide when/if this thing goes to trial.
My thoughts?
Race: It's pretty clear that the crime was, at the least, racially motivated. Zimmerman has a history of calling the police. Some 40 times throughout a single year, mostly reporting "suspicious" black males. That alone firmly establishes his racial bias, even without the garbled 911 call where he supposedly called him a "fucking coon."
Outside of, at the least, establishing Zimmerman's motives for stalking and confronting a black teen walking down the street in his neighborhood, race isn't the real issue here.
The Police: Their behavior is despicable. Altering witness statements, or out right ignoring key witnesses, failing to follow protocol. It's horrible. Failing to, at the least, bring Zimmerman in for questioning is deplorable. If they had done that, maybe they could have ascertained if Zimmerman was in a stable frame of mind at the time (ie, not under the influence of drugs and alcohol himself, like he claimed, from a cursory observation of Trayvon, that the youth was under the influence of).
Zimmerman: His "self defense" claim is shady, looking at what we know of the case, and regardless, he willingly chose to disregard the advice of the 911 operator, and took it upon himself to leave his vehicle, and confront Trayvon. Everything that happened after he disregarded that order is on him. No one else is to blame for this.
Stripping race and names out of the scenario, this is what we have:
1) Person A sees Person B walking down the street. It's raining. Person B has a hoodie on, but the hood isn't up.
2) Person A is suspicious of Person B, not understanding what this person is doing in their neighborhood.
3) Person A calls 911, and reports Person B. Person A follows Person B in his car. 911 tells Person A not to follow Person B, and wait for the police to arrive.
4) Person A disregards this order.
5) Person B notices that they are being followed by Person A, a complete stranger, and proceeds to flee from this stranger who has already confronted him once.
6) Person A pursues Person B on foot, and eventually corners him.
7) Once again being confronted by this complete stranger, Person B has no choice but to try and escape. Only, Person A has a gun. Person B is unarmed.
8) Person B attempts to escape Person A, and a scuffle breaks out.
9) Person A then shoots Person B, killing him.
10) When the police arrive, Person A claims self defense.
Looking at the sequence of events, and not considering the race of the people, the only thing that matters is that a horrible event took place, and a 17 year old boy is dead.
I do, however, think Zimmerman's ignorant views of blacks lead to this, and he should be held accountable.
As a young black man, I've grown up with my fair share of having to deal with racism and discrimination. I've certainly had many "talks" with my mom about her views on race, and while I certainly understand her perspective (she grew up in the 40's and 50's and 60's, when race relations were at their most volatile), I never once used her experiences to paint my perspective of other races (ie, whites).
Zimmerman can try and blame his actions on anything he wants, but what it boils down to is what he chose to do in a situation he, himself, orchestrated. If he had ignored Trayvon Martin, this is what would have happened: Trayvon would have gone back to his father's house and enjoyed the game with his family. Zimmerman would have continued about his business and went home.
If Zimmerman had simply called the cops, and let them do their jobs, this is what would have happened: The police would have arrived, and if Trayvon was still in the area, he would have been approached and questioned. After clearing the air, he more than likely would have gotten back home. Why? Because, unlike an overzealous "neighborhood watch captain" with delusions of grandeur, the police probably wouldn't have confronted Trayvon with their weapons drawn, and got into a fight with him., thus leading to his death.
All this boils down to is this whole horrible situation is Zimmerman's fault. There is no justifying his actions, because he only had to make one choice that night: ignore Trayvon Martin. Maybe two choices: Ignore Trayvon Martin, or let the police do their jobs after he called them. He did neither, and now a 17 year old has lost his life, and Zimmerman has to deal with the consequences of that, whatever they may be.
People are focusing too much on the race angle, when it's really as simple as a man being rightfully investigated and punished for a crime he committed. And I do believe he committed murder, but fortunately for him, that will be up to a jury to decide when/if this thing goes to trial.
MightyHealthy
Banned
What?
The Saints "bounty" program encouraged the injury of others.
This bounty is for his capture to face charges. No intent of harm implied.
Who would try to capture Zimmerman anyway? He'd just shoot you and get off for it.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
Reuters said:
What is a white hispanic?
Baconsammy
Banned
No one with a brain follows them. But it helps the Conservatives make their idiotic point, so now all of a sudden they're relevant. It makes for a really nice soundbite on Fox news.
And if anyone had the right to attack someone it would have been Trayvon, who was being stalked by Zimmerman.
Baconsammy
Banned
Lucy Ricardo.
It's still a ridiculous bounty - the authorities know where he is, who are they turning him over to?
MightyHealthy
Banned
Don't you mean Little Ricky?
And as someone who has a white mother and a half Spanish, half Italian father...that's pretty much what I am.
I personally view it as a poetic statement - that George Zimmerman is a fugitive from justice.
Zimmerman is not facing any charges by anybody, yet.
Meaningless "bounty" by yet another sub- group, exploiting tragedy for look at us gain.
Florida legislature has some work ahead of it. Wait, that's right, Florida has difficulty even voting.
I honestly don't get how zimmermans defense can/will fly. He was the aggressor.
Then again, juries are such whacked wild cards.
Meaningless "bounty" by yet another sub- group, exploiting tragedy for look at us gain.
Florida legislature has some work ahead of it. Wait, that's right, Florida has difficulty even voting.
I honestly don't get how zimmermans defense can/will fly. He was the aggressor.
Then again, juries are such whacked wild cards.
Baconsammy
Banned
Naw, I was just making a bad joke that Zimmerman is as Hispanic as a White woman who marries a Hispanic.
So.... I'm guessing bringing up a hypothetical where Trevor Martin was the one with the gun, acting as the aggressor with the gun, and who happened to kill someone without a gun was still too subtle a giveaway?
The disingenuous rhetoric aside...
why is it so hard to believe that a group of people would do everything in their power to highlight, as well as be personally effected by (through likenesses in the story), a action and inaction that sits next to injustices and transgressions that date back centuries - at the same time as - be outraged at a vigilante who killed in an innocent kid "in self-defense"?
ShinNL
Member
What does this refer to? Did I miss something?
MatthewB92
Member
His friend on the today show said someone was going to die that day.
soundscream
Member
I would bet on the one who didn't have the gun to die.
This should be interesting
Baconsammy
Banned
Basically the message Florida is sending is that if you're being stalked, you have no right to defend yourself. Because that's what Trayvon did, and he died because of it. That nutjob should be carrying nothing more than a cellphone to call in suspicious things, but since he's in Florida he gets to play cowboy and carry a gun like a big boy. Now instead of Trayvon simply getting to experience the "walking/driving while black in the wrong neighorhood" phenomenon, he is dead. What a country.
someone who is racially white and ethnically hispanic, does not require an immediate mixed heritage.
malingenie
Member
According to the census, me.
Let's see what comes of this. He'll probably make the case he isnt a racist, which I personally think is very possible based on what I've read. He'll also probably make the case he was jumped. I can believe they got into a fight certainly, and he might even truly believe Trayvon instigated it, but from all the evidence I've heard there's no way this isnt Zimmermans fault for stalking the kid in the first place and chasing him, and oh yeah shooting an unarmed kid.
slidewinder
Banned
You can be "Mayan Hispanic", or "West African Hispanic," or "'Chinese' Hispanic" (either in the way that inspired the single-quote-link there, or, you know, actually racially something that might nowadays pass for "Chinese"). Or all sorts of other "pure" racial descents (from Europe, Africa, Asia, or the Americas) and Hispanic as well, or mixes of any of these and Hispanic.
I think the only possible way they can begin to build a case of self defense in the face of his life being in danger is if they suddenly reveal Trayvon had a knife and was using it.
I don't think thats the case though. I heard that Zimmerman voice mail on Dateline yesterday and i'm starting to think that screaming on the phone could possibly have been Zimmerman. I think Zimmerman is a blowhard wannabe cop, he was running on a high from his neighbor saying Zimmerman helped foil a break in of his place, he liked the thrill and vigilantism. So he blew off the 911 dispatcher telling him to back off. Trayvon's gf says one of the last things he said was that he was being followed and she told him to run and he said no he wasn't going to.
When Zimmerman stopped him and tried to act like a cop I think Trayvon had one of two thoughts, this is some guy trying to trick me and mug me or this really is a jerk wannabe cop trying to detain me. I'm thinking the former and being a teen, 17, in athletics he might have had a little teen bravado and decided to get froggy and the situation got intense. At this point we definitely know there was a scuffle because there were mutliple 911 calls made over this while it was still happening so this wasn't a quick thing. I know people are calling Trayvon a child, but he was a 17 year old in sports. I'm not ashamed to admit a 17 year old could probably kick my ass and this is the part where I think that screaming/whining was zimmerman.
I think Zimmerman was getting his ass kicked and because he was your classic blowhard bully when stood up to and his plans did not turn out the way he saw he panicked and pulled his gun and shot. Getting beat in a scuffle is not your life endangered so if that is going to be their defense I don't see how it will hold water, unless like I said earlier they suddenly reveal their was a knife or something involved. Plus on top of all this you always go back to 911 telling him the back off and Zimmerman WAS the instigator of this, his defense cannot get around that fact.
I don't think thats the case though. I heard that Zimmerman voice mail on Dateline yesterday and i'm starting to think that screaming on the phone could possibly have been Zimmerman. I think Zimmerman is a blowhard wannabe cop, he was running on a high from his neighbor saying Zimmerman helped foil a break in of his place, he liked the thrill and vigilantism. So he blew off the 911 dispatcher telling him to back off. Trayvon's gf says one of the last things he said was that he was being followed and she told him to run and he said no he wasn't going to.
When Zimmerman stopped him and tried to act like a cop I think Trayvon had one of two thoughts, this is some guy trying to trick me and mug me or this really is a jerk wannabe cop trying to detain me. I'm thinking the former and being a teen, 17, in athletics he might have had a little teen bravado and decided to get froggy and the situation got intense. At this point we definitely know there was a scuffle because there were mutliple 911 calls made over this while it was still happening so this wasn't a quick thing. I know people are calling Trayvon a child, but he was a 17 year old in sports. I'm not ashamed to admit a 17 year old could probably kick my ass and this is the part where I think that screaming/whining was zimmerman.
I think Zimmerman was getting his ass kicked and because he was your classic blowhard bully when stood up to and his plans did not turn out the way he saw he panicked and pulled his gun and shot. Getting beat in a scuffle is not your life endangered so if that is going to be their defense I don't see how it will hold water, unless like I said earlier they suddenly reveal their was a knife or something involved. Plus on top of all this you always go back to 911 telling him the back off and Zimmerman WAS the instigator of this, his defense cannot get around that fact.
You don't need a weapon to put someone's life in danger. Not too similar, but in my town a bystander shot and killed someone who was beating a cop unconscious with their fists.
Dude Abides
Banned
Do you know where the reports of the bloody nose and wet shirt came from?
Lol, because a 17 year old kid who was half his size could put his life in danger. Remember who was killed here, jesus christ.
slidewinder
Banned
The law and the case law decides when people can use deadly force, and the bar isn't very high here. You can shoot someone dead in Florida, and in many states, for punching you, period.
In Florida, you can PROBABLY shoot someone dead for TRYING to punch you and missing, with you merely suspecting that he is going to try to punch you again. While he's naked enough that you can be 100% certain that he doesn't have a weapon and that there are no weapons other than yours available.
Yeah, I remember this from when I lived in Pensacola. I'd never heard of any ever using it though, what a stupid fucking law.
Mammoth Jones
Member
Regardless, Trevon didn't injure Zimmerman to any extend that justifies pulling a gun. Combine that with the fact that Zimmerman was the one that pursued and started the conflict...his self defense claims are bullshit.
radioheadrule83
Banned
I don't think this is likely at all!
Firstly, I've read that Zimmerman has called 911 46 times since August 2011, and in every case reported young teens he considered suspicious. None of those calls reference an actual crime.
Secondly, I don't think the screams are Zimmerman at all. The narrative built up by the calls to me is quite clear.
- A neighbourhood watchman calls the police and says he sees a suspicious character in the neighbourhood.
- From the 48 seconds - 1:20 mark, he tries to play the South Park "he's coming straight for me" line... this is obviously Treyvon looking back at a guy who is staring at him on a phone. Bear in mind that at this point Zimmerman is stalking him from his SUV!
- When asked for a description - Zimmerman says "he looks black" (to be fair, the dispatcher asks for ethnicity and things like that)... but it is telling that Zimmerman feels like he "looks like he's up to no good, like he's on drugs or something". He wasn't.
- At 1:39 he expresses a frustration that "these assholes always get away"
- Only 2 minutes into the call, Treyvon starts running.
- At 2:08-2:20, you can hear Zimmerman's increasing anaerobic activity, and it has been suggested he says "Fucking Coons" under his breath at 2:22.... not an argument I'm interested in, frankly, it's irrelevant to me. The point is, Zimmerman is following him as he runs.
- The Dispatcher now asks "Are you following him?" -- "Yeah", responds Zimmerman -- "OK we don't need you to do that" -- "OK", responds Zimmerman... yet he continued to follow
In a subsequent call from a neighbour we hear the trail end of a pursuit and disturbance outside. We can hear screaming... not just a screaming, but a desperate shrieking - for help.
For Zimmerman to not be the aggressor - what would have had to have happened is for the chase to go, Scooby Doo style, from Zimmerman chasing Treyvon to Treyvon chasing Zimmerman. I just don't believe it. A man who patrols a neighbourhood like a wannabe cop and arms himself with a gun, chasing an unarmed man - knows how to handle himself, he doesn't have to run away or scream for help. And that voice sounds young. Treyvon's mother recognises it as her sons voice. While some might say she may just want to nail Zimmerman no matter what, I see no reason why I should trust the man who ignored officers, pursued someone and then shot them, over the mother of a murdered victim.
I know the law is bogus and needs to be thrown out but lets not resort to hyperbole.
And I'm guessing you can also shoot someone for stalking you in a car and then outright chasing you down. I'd consider that a lot more threatening than throwing a punch
Mammoth Jones
Member
And if that's the case, the law is wrong or the interpretation of it is wrong. Period. How can you go and start a confrontation with an unarmed child knowing you're armed then kill him dead when he defends himself? All the while 911 tells you point blank to not follow him.
slidewinder
Banned
Those are the standards and requirements for someone who is the initial aggressor; they're greater, as everyone can recognize that they should be, but, again, the body of case law is what nails down what all those terms mean. The expectation that "grievous bodily harm" might be suffered in the case where one is not the aggressor, for instance, has been taken to mean just about any kind of injury at all: the belief that one might possibly receive a bruise on the cheekbone in the near future from someone is, in many states, sufficient justification to shoot an unarmed person dead. Edit: meaning someone who is KNOWN to be unarmed, too.
Dude Abides
Banned
Note that the stand your ground law, unlike the law that applies to initial agressors, eliminates the duty of retreat.
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes...ng=&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.012.html
(776.013 is when you're in your home).
If Zimmerman is considered the initial aggressor, then what you quoted applies. If he is not, then the above should apply.
I'm not sure why Zimmerman's lawyer is saying stand your ground is basically the castle doctrine, when stand your ground is explicitly intended to make it so everywhere is your castle. Zimmerman may have hired a hack.
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