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F'DUPTON 3: Back in the Tub with 5.0/5.5/6/7/several Inches of RAM-Flavoured Water

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badb0y

Member
We never knew how the RAM was allocated people just assumed the OS would use 1 GB because the OS is based on FreeBSD(lightweight) and the PS4 was supposed to have 4 GB of RAM before being bumped up.

I personally think that the RAM issue isn't that big of a deal because both PS4 and Xbox One will probably free up more RAM as the generation moves a long.

I remember in like 2010 the PS3's OS memory footprint went from 120 MB to 50 MB, that's a reduction of ~%60.

Keep calm..... we are all going to be fine.
 

i-Lo

Member
How much power draw and additional heat are we talking about here? I mean, you can push the spec, but it also depends on if your hardware and cooling can handle the bump.

Listen to this part carefully: http://youtu.be/rCVplpC1YXY?t=1m10s

Currently, PS4's power consumption figures are not public knowledge. However, it's clear that they've been conservative with the clock speed to avoid heating issues. First gen PS3 had a PSU of 380W and a peak consumption of 209W. So, while an up clock of 50MHz is certainly feasible the question for them is whether this small bump portrays an acceptable risk pertaining to long term reliability.
 

Daingurse

Member
There are games in development that are using 6 GB of RAM

k-medium.jpg


OM NOM NOM NOM NOM!
 

avaya

Member
Listen to this part carefully: http://youtu.be/rCVplpC1YXY?t=1m10s

Currently, PS4's power consumption figures are not public knowledge. However, it's clear that they've been conservative with the clock speed to avoid heating issues. First gen PS3 had a PSU of 380W and a peak consumption of 209W. So, while an up clock of 50MHz is certainly feasible the question for them is whether this small bump portrays an acceptable risk pertaining to long term reliability.

Clock also affects yield....
 
I didn't say this is going to happen for sure. The PS4 is a very conservative design in regards to heat. If launch units hold up well over the years, there is a possibility of a late gen bump for when things get stale.


HOWEVER,

The main point I wanted to make it is there are games utilizing 6 GB of RAM in development.

tumblr_mi3mi1hdWH1s5o3aso2_250%25255B1%25255D.gif



OT: I can't create threads, it I'm thinking this might deserve one. It seems a dev is confirming indie self-publishing on Xbox 360 starting in August (http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/...campaign=Feed:+GamasutraNews+(Gamasutra+News)). They may have gotten the date wrong, and we don't know what this means for self-publishing on Xbone, but I found it interesting nonetheless.

Edit: Nevermind. A thread exists. From fucking yesterday. How behind the times am I?

Obviously he's never met my people.

*purrs seductively*

tumblr_mac3x3mzkj1ruj2iwo1_4001.gif


there already a thread
Oops. Okay, thank you.
 

spwolf

Member
1) Digital Foundry / Eurogamer claims in an article that 4.5 GB is available for development at launch, with 512 MB / 1 GB as flexible memory

2) Various, unbanned GAF insiders have said "That article is incorrect"

3) Thuway, Famousmortimer, BruceLeeRoy, and Verendus (all unbanned) have all heard "The memory situation on PS4 is ideal and has exceeded expectations in every way." That should mean that games at launch won't be affected by any kind of restrictions in place

4) Thuway stated that some games currently in development are using 6 GB of RAM, but also implied some form of RAM restrictions at launch is not completely out of the equation

5) Kagari (has connections to Square-Enix) also agreed with the 6 GB claim

6) VBlank Entertainment (Retro City Rampage) has denied that Sony is reserving 3.5 GB of RAM for the OS

7) NOTHING is confirmed until either Sony states something or launch RAM allocations are revealed in some way


DF has quite few things wrong these days on PS4, i wonder who is feeding them all this bad info.
 

Takuya

Banned
He wrote,

"I will say: the RAM situation on launch, will not reflect the RAM situation in two years, and not reflect the RAM situation at the end of the console's life cycle."

Sounds like a moving target. DF probably has the numbers wrong, but it sounds like there's at least a bit of truth about what they published. That was my point. Quit being such a warrior about it.

RAM situation at launch? Does that mean DF is correct at least for the launch titles?
No, your point was and is well quoted above, that DF is correct. Sorry, warrior indeed.
 

daveo42

Banned
Listen to this part carefully: http://youtu.be/rCVplpC1YXY?t=1m10s

Currently, PS4's power consumption figures are not public knowledge. However, it's clear that they've been conservative with the clock speed to avoid heating issues. First gen PS3 had a PSU of 380W and a peak consumption of 209W. So, while an up clock of 50MHz is certainly feasible the question for them is whether this small bump portrays an acceptable risk pertaining to long term reliability.

Thanks, I've heard pretty much every quote about this interview on GAF, but haven't seem the interview personally.

With Cerny not being surprised by the size of the console based solely on his evaluation of power consumption, they might be able to get away with a small spec bump later down the line. Of course, like you said, all depending on risk.

Seriously, I would like to see a bump in spec on the system in the future but hope Sony won't implement it unless they are sure it wouldn't negatively affect the systems. The GPU is already down clocked as it is based on the card that's rumored to be in there?
 

Diagol

Member
1) Digital Foundry / Eurogamer claims in an article that 4.5 GB is available for development at launch, with 512 MB / 1 GB as flexible memory

2) Various, unbanned GAF insiders have said "That article is incorrect"

3) Thuway, Famousmortimer, BruceLeeRoy, and Verendus (all unbanned) have all heard "The memory situation on PS4 is ideal and has exceeded expectations in every way." That should mean that games at launch won't be affected by any kind of restrictions in place

4) Thuway stated that some games currently in development are using 6 GB of RAM, but also implied some form of RAM restrictions at launch is not completely out of the equation

5) Kagari (has connections to Square-Enix) also agreed with the 6 GB claim

6) VBlank Entertainment (Retro City Rampage) has denied that Sony is reserving 3.5 GB of RAM for the OS

7) NOTHING is confirmed until either Sony states something or launch RAM allocations are revealed in some way

Thanks so much for this. Like what other people have said, can this please go in the first post of the thread? It's a pretty great summary of the recent developments so far.
 

thuway

Member
Seriously, I would like to see a bump in spec on the system in the future but hope Sony won't implement it unless they are sure it wouldn't negatively affect the systems. The GPU is already down clocked as it is based on the card that's rumored to be in there?

From what I understand, if no YLOD or RROD fiasco occurs with PS4 within the first four years, you could see an upclock late in the cylce for the machine. This is all hypothetical, pie in the sky, but a strong possibility. The PS4 is VERY conservative. The GPU in the PS4 is clocked 60 mhz lower than its retail counterpart.
 

i-Lo

Member
Thanks, I've heard pretty much every quote about this interview on GAF, but haven't seem the interview personally.

With Cerny not being surprised by the size of the console based solely on his evaluation of power consumption, they might be able to get away with a small spec bump later down the line. Of course, like you said, all depending on risk.

Seriously, I would like to see a bump in spec on the system in the future but hope Sony won't implement it unless they are sure it wouldn't negatively affect the systems. The GPU is already down clocked as it is based on the card that's rumored to be in there?

Yes. there has been a down clock from retail 7850 but overall Liverpool is more powerful and flexible compared to the aforementioned card.
 

RoKKeR

Member
1) Digital Foundry / Eurogamer claims in an article that 4.5 GB is available for development at launch, with 512 MB / 1 GB as flexible memory

2) Various, unbanned GAF insiders have said "That article is incorrect"

3) Thuway, Famousmortimer, BruceLeeRoy, and Verendus (all unbanned) have all heard "The memory situation on PS4 is ideal and has exceeded expectations in every way." That should mean that games at launch won't be affected by any kind of restrictions in place

4) Thuway stated that some games currently in development are using 6 GB of RAM, but also implied some form of RAM restrictions at launch is not completely out of the equation

5) Kagari (has connections to Square-Enix) also agreed with the 6 GB claim

6) VBlank Entertainment (Retro City Rampage) has denied that Sony is reserving 3.5 GB of RAM for the OS

7) NOTHING is confirmed until either Sony states something or launch RAM allocations are revealed in some way

Many thanks for this. Much Ado About Nothing it seems, this all seems reasonable/expected.
 
So is this whole RAM episode now the biggest-ever carnival of stupid in GAF history. I've only been around since 2007 or so, but this has to come close....
 

vazel

Banned
So is this whole RAM episode now the biggest-ever carnival of stupid in GAF history. I've only been around since 2007 or so, but this has to come close....
GAF has gotten much bigger lately so it's only logical that there'd be more idiocy on the forums. Welcome brothers.
 

Elios83

Member
The Witness, amirite? ;-P

The Witness was said to use 5GB of memory as far as I remember.
Still I think that we're heading into a distorted reality if developers with this round of home consoles have so much memory available that they can brag about how much of that they have wasted for their amazing small budget indie game :p
In reality it's very likely that for the first time ever for home consoles, in many games memory will be left unused by developers because they don't need it.
 
This thread sure has gone places since the first few pages. Thankfully a few things were clarified in the last few pages for now until Sony gives official word.

so the ps4 only has 4.5gb of ram available?

i'm not surprised, i was wondering why the xbox one launch titles looked (ryse, dead rising 3, forza) looked better than the ps4 launch titles. at the end of the day i suppose the xbox one now has the slight upper hand.

CnkUVMD.gif
 

astraycat

Member
The thing about RAM on consoles (and PCs, really) is that it's complicated.

On the PC the only way most applications will allocate memory is through new/malloc. Additionally, on the PC this memory is not guaranteed to always be resident; pages will get swapped out to disk and moved around in memory as the OS sees fit to facilitate the multi-tasking that we now all expect as a part of desktop computing. Ever idle or alt-tab in a computer game and come back only to have the game go choppy or even lock up for a bit before playing smoothly again? That's probably probably due to page faults -- the game tried to access memory that it had allocated and the OS found that the pages had been swapped to disk, so it swaps out other pages (if necessary) and then swaps the pages the game needs back in.

But until this generation consoles couldn't count on there being any physical backing store for things like page swaps to happen, so the memory you got was literally the physical memory you used. I imagine games probably allocated it in an entire block and then divvied it up with its own specialized allocators for the games' usecases.

This generation though there is the guarantee of a physical backing store in the included harddrive. The OS simply has to reserve some of that, and then it can do all this neat swapping to facilitate this new expectation of multi-tasking from a home console. Of course when this was added, some engineers probably thought to themselves, "Well, why not let games get some of this action? We'll reserve 512MiB of physical memory to be managed by the OS in the paged style and give it to game developers!"

So, assuming my guess at what this so-called "flexible" memory is (and I think it's a safe bet given all the mumblings of reduced performance due to paging), developers now have access to essentially the best of both worlds. They can put non-critical latency-tolerant stuff in paged memory, and put everything else that you can't gracefully handle a page fault on in the 4.5GB of guaranteed-resident memory.

Oh, and the neat thing about swappable memory? You can allocate more of it than is physically reserved. True, you can't access more of it than exists at a given time without encountering a page fault, but some clever game programmer is going to find a way to make the best of it.

Though, according to the article, there seems to be another 512MiB of flexible memory guaranteed to be resident. Not sure what the point of that is though.
 

daveo42

Banned
From what I understand, if no YLOD or RROD fiasco occurs with PS4 within the first four years, you could see an upclock late in the cylce for the machine. This is all hypothetical, pie in the sky, but a strong possibility. The PS4 is VERY conservative. The GPU in the PS4 is clocked 60 mhz lower than its retail counterpart.

I'm sure Sony already knows the current output of the system and the current potential for overheating, but they can't roll it out until after some long-term testing. Even if it hasn't been as big an issue like RROD, they'll do what they need to do to avoid it in the future. Including a conservative clock at launch.

Yes. there has been a down clock from retail 7850 but overall Liverpool is more powerful and flexible compared to the aforementioned card.

Wasn't sure if we were still using the 7850 as the retail counterpart still or not. It's close, but not 100% the same in every aspect and is still a separate card, not lumped into an APU.
 
1) Digital Foundry / Eurogamer claims in an article that 4.5 GB is available for development at launch, with 512 MB / 1 GB as flexible memory

2) Various, unbanned GAF insiders have said "That article is incorrect"

3) Thuway, Famousmortimer, BruceLeeRoy, and Verendus (all unbanned) have all heard "The memory situation on PS4 is ideal and has exceeded expectations in every way." That should mean that games at launch won't be affected by any kind of restrictions in place

4) Thuway stated that some games currently in development are using 6 GB of RAM, but also implied some form of RAM restrictions at launch is not completely out of the equation

5) Kagari (has connections to Square-Enix) also agreed with the 6 GB claim

6) VBlank Entertainment (Retro City Rampage) has denied that Sony is reserving 3.5 GB of RAM for the OS

7) NOTHING is confirmed until either Sony states something or launch RAM allocations are revealed in some way
Thanks for the nice summary, Aquamarine. Saves everyone from having to wade through what's probably a disaster of a thread.
 

i-Lo

Member
Wasn't sure if we were still using the 7850 as the retail counterpart still or not. It's close, but not 100% the same in every aspect and is still a separate card, not lumped into an APU.

The liverpool in the APU features design changes to AMD's GCN which will be featured in their next gen retail cards and it has to do with GPGPU functionalities.
 

pushBAK

Member
1) Digital Foundry / Eurogamer claims in an article that 4.5 GB is available for development at launch, with 512 MB / 1 GB as flexible memory

2) Various, unbanned GAF insiders have said "That article is incorrect"

3) Thuway, Famousmortimer, BruceLeeRoy, and Verendus (all unbanned) have all heard "The memory situation on PS4 is ideal and has exceeded expectations in every way." That should mean that games at launch won't be affected by any kind of restrictions in place

4) Thuway stated that some games currently in development are using 6 GB of RAM, but also implied some form of RAM restrictions at launch is not completely out of the equation

5) Kagari (has connections to Square-Enix) also agreed with the 6 GB claim

6) VBlank Entertainment (Retro City Rampage) has denied that Sony is reserving 3.5 GB of RAM for the OS

7) NOTHING is confirmed until either Sony states something or launch RAM allocations are revealed in some way

Thank you for posting this, buddy.
 

Ricky_R

Member
He wrote,

"I will say: the RAM situation on launch, will not reflect the RAM situation in two years, and not reflect the RAM situation at the end of the console's life cycle."

Sounds like a moving target. DF probably has the numbers wrong, but it sounds like there's at least a bit of truth about what they published. That was my point. Quit being such a warrior about it.

He also wrote that there are games currently in development that are using 6gb's of RAM.
 

velociraptor

Junior Member
Yes. there has been a down clock from retail 7850 but overall Liverpool is more powerful and flexible compared to the aforementioned card.
While the clock rate is lower, the TF output is higher (1.84 vs 1.73) and the PS4 GPU has more compute units (18 vs 16). You would expect the PS4 GPU to be slightly better than the 7850 based on this information.

The new news regarding the 6/2 split is welcoming; and logically makes more sense. Devoting such a large chunk of memory (3.5 or whatever number was touted) simply sounded insane to me. At least the extra 4GB memory Sony slapped on does not appear to be a waste after all.
 

ghst

thanks for the laugh
Funny thing is that this is only the opening salvo for what is to come this fall when they finally release and go head to head.

i'm planning to open an DF rival with an unabashed sony bias and an obnoxious number of high revenue pop up video ads.
 

Warablo

Member
Fucking haha. I love Steam and all being a PC gamer most of my life but give me a break. I got Dishonored on the sale and installed it yesterday This is one of the more "console-friendly" PC games.

Downloading...
Step 1/5: Installing Microsoft Direct X for Windows (even though it's been installed 100x already)
Step 2/5: Installing Microsoft Visual C++ runtime libraries
Step 3/5: Installing XNA
Step 4/5: Some other PC shit
Step 5/5: Some other PC shit
Launch game.
Change video settings.
Play game for 2 mins
Tweak video settings.

It's fine for people like your and I but it's never going to be as easy as the consoles for normal people. Not gonna happen.

This,

Similar situation when I bought Stalker yesterday... My PC is crap, lets just say that.
 
D

Deleted member 80556

Unconfirmed Member
From what I understand, if no YLOD or RROD fiasco occurs with PS4 within the first four years, you could see an upclock late in the cylce for the machine. This is all hypothetical, pie in the sky, but a strong possibility. The PS4 is VERY conservative. The GPU in the PS4 is clocked 60 mhz lower than its retail counterpart.

This sounds so awesome.

And I mean that because I can buy it as early as possible and not be very worried about a potential YLOD like error.

I hope they're able to get up clock that GPU to have 2TFLOPS. That'd be awesome.
 
6GB now, but boy did Eurogamer cause a big hoopla.

Disagree on both counts. On 360, at least, the game keeps a gameplay (non-cutscene) framerate of 30 the vast majority of the time. A handful of areas have slighter choppier framerates (Armadillo and the woods of West Elizabeth) but on the whole it is pretty damn good.

Personally I think it looks fantastic too but it seems more situation-to-situation based and dependent largely on the lighting as the game is certainly starved in the texture resolution department. I've had some really impressive looking moments with the game recently though.

I stopped worrying about GTA V after playing RDR.
Still can't believe this didn't get a PC version!
Wrong and that is bad anyways if it were true. False.
 
Disappointing if true, not that developers won't be able to make some great looking games out of 4.5/5 GB, but they could have done more without the OS taking such an amount of the RAM pie.

Of course the OS may shrink, hopefully in time for developers to start using more RAM years down the line.

Edit: just saw the 6GB mentioned earlier in the thread, last time I post in a thread before reading all the pages.
 
Eurogamer is still wrong about it.
The flexible memory used to be 1 GiB virtual and 512MiB physical.
Now is 512 MiB virtual and 512MiB physical.

The physical flexible memory is unchanged.
And 1GiB virtual memory has been changed long ago.

You know things? So what does the final breakdown look like for the PS4's RAM?
 
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