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[dammitmattt]

This thread is filled with so much bitterness. More lumping of Nintendo fans into the "NTard" category, a collective mind that all think the same and can't be reasoned with 'cos we I are dumb!

HA HA...what this comes down to is bitterness. Some of you invested in your expensive TV's & expensive hardware and you're upset 'cos it's being outshined by the lil' Wii. It's all about fear...you fear the change that Wii brings, you fear that Nintendo will 'kill' gaming as you know/like it, you fear that your hobby will be invaded by soccermom's & retirement home ache's...you fear that this 'POS' Wii will hurt your investment in PS3 and/or X360. What's sad is, Wii isn't going to kill those ways of gaming, so I don't see why it's so hated.

Over a decade ago, I HATED the 'PlayStation Generation' as it represented the growth of the casual market and the Hollywoodization/basterdization of the industry I loved...a hobby for ME was now openning up thanks to a non-games company. Fast forward to now...the 'PlayStation Generation' is resisting the changes Wii is bringing to this industry tooth & nail...basically for the same biased reason: they don't like Nintendo.

It's even gotten to the point where 2 unrealistic theories take place, theories that are so wrong they even seem to be pre-GCN launch level Nintendo fanboyish. 1- Wii will suddenly DIE once the almighty "HD-era" kicks in...it's almost sad how these enthusiests gobble up that company line. 2- Sony can make their own PS+Waggle, yeah, that'll fix everything won't it...this theory is just as crazy as any Nintendo armchair CEO back in 2002.

This crackpot theory of a PS2+Waggle coming out & uprooting Wii's success this year is JUST AS crazy as a sudden WiiHD next year. I ask you, did the NDS need a sudden graphical upgrade 'cos of woes about how much more powerful/capable the PSP is? Neither will Wii...and by the time it would WiiHD probably will come to pass, so then what...you have your whiney issue addressed, you'll still find something to cry about.

The success of the Wii by no means affects my enjoyment of my 360, my PS3, or my HDTV. I'm just upset that my Wii doesn't take advantage of my HDTV, and I'm upset that a great game like Zelda looks kind of like crap (although others like Wii Sports, Wii Play, and Super Paper Mario look fine). I'm upset that such a party/people system has such shit online.

So let me get this straight...you hated the growth of the industry with the PS1 but you welcome it with the Wii? That makes absolutely no sense, ESPECIALLY since Sony didn't come into the picture trying to change things as much as Nintendo has. If anything, you shouldn't like Nintendo's changes because it changes your hobby and invites even more casual gamers in.

 

[-ImaginaryInsider]

My point is that the next-generation of hardware is expanding gameplay as well as graphics.

The counter argument would be that the controller had stagnated. The graphics and processing power were increasing, but the input method was the bottleneck.

Pssst...the answer is (d) ALL OF THE ABOVE.

 

[CreatureX3]

Well this thread turned into complete crap rather quickly..it was bordering on a decent discussion for a while.

Some people just can't handle the fact that Nintendo is number one once again!

 

[schuelma]

Some people just can't handle the fact that Nintendo is number one once again!

Yeah that will really help things

 

[ShockingAlberto]

So let me get this straight...you hated the growth of the industry with the PS1 but you welcome it with the Wii? That makes absolutely no sense, ESPECIALLY since Sony didn't come into the picture trying to change things as much as Nintendo has. If anything, you shouldn't like Nintendo's changes because it changes your hobby and invites even more casual gamers in.

Or he grew up and changed opinions based on life experience?

This isn't politics. Someone has the right to, you know, change their minds every once in a while.

 

[koam]

My understanding of Koam's argument was that very few people care about graphics.

My point is that the next-generation of hardware is expanding gameplay as well as graphics.

But really, any attempt to separate graphics and gameplay is moronic. Very rarely do graphics improve without an improvement in overall hardware power. And increased hardware power allows designers to create new gameplay.

My point was that when we're saying "people don't care about graphics" it doesn't mean we want N64/PS1 graphics. Those graphics were TERRIBLE, horrible framerates, bad draw distances, a blurry(n64)/pixelated(ps1) mess. Last gen (ps2,xbox,gc) fixed those issues for the most part and the graphics are very acceptable now.

As far as new gameplay goes, I'll ask you one simple question and I want you to answer truthfully.

What has made a bigger impact on gameplay: The extra power that the 360/PS3 have over the Wii OR the new wiimote + nunchuck controller?

 

[theBishop]

Which doesn't affect his argument since the majority of the market evidently doesn't really care about horsepower-driven gameplay expansions at this point either.

...

 

[dammitmattt]

Or he grew up and changed opinions based on life experience?

This isn't politics. Someone has the right to, you know, change their minds every once in a while.

That is true. I was just pointing out the inconsistencies in his argument.

 

[Chipopo]

So let me get this straight...you hated the growth of the industry with the PS1 but you welcome it with the Wii? That makes absolutely no sense, ESPECIALLY since Sony didn't come into the picture trying to change things as much as Nintendo has. If anything, you shouldn't like Nintendo's changes because it changes your hobby and invites even more casual gamers in.

Ya see...as people get older they tend to cha....never mind I don't want to ruin the surprise.

 

[borghe]

We are not competing against Sony or Microsoft. We are battling the indifference of people who have no interest in video games - Iwata

I love this quote. Forget your console loyalties/biases for a second, or what you think of Nintendo games or mascots.. or that he even mentions Sony and MS in the quote. The basic premise behind this quote shows that nintendo gets "it". You can "work to expand the market" as much as you want, by aligning yourself with schools, MTV, Linkin Park, Paris Hilton, whatever. But none of that shit is going to get people who really don't want to play video games to play video games.

When Iwata first became president of Nintendo I took it as just another executive guy taking charge of another high profile company. It is rare to see someone become so attuned to the company and so aware of the industry that they are able to pull a turn around like he has. Heck, the only other recent company I can think of off the top of my head is Apple, but that's pretty much what Steve Jobs does. Not to mention he is Apple. About the only other close example I can think of is what Bob Iger is doing over at Disney.

kudos to Iwata. No matter what you think of Nintendo, the man has really turned around a company that was rumored to be heading towards third party for quite a long time.

 

[ComputerNerd]

I'm still trying to figure out why that guy didn't think I played Gears of War. I only made one wrong statement. And that's because I call all games of that type FPS's. I call the over-the-shoulder view in RE4, where you aim at enemies, a FPS mode of the game. As long as there's an aiming cursor and you're either looking from the character's eyes, or over his shoulder, I call it an FPS. I know it's not the correct term, but it's a habit.

They play just the same. Just one you see your character, the other you don't. The gameplay is just the same. Just a technicality.

Anyway, I still can't find the enemy on Google. It's some huge black tentacle monster that comes out of the ground. The only way to kill it was that satellite guided laser something or other weapon.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

That is true. I was just pointing out the inconsistencies in his argument.

At face value, yes. But I think his point was that he was wrong then and the people espousing the same view are wrong now.

At least, that's how I took it.

 

[chase]

I like playing good games.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

I like playing good games.

Heretic.

 

[ComputerNerd]

Heretic.

Now that was a good game. I loved Heretic.

 

[Tobor]

I love this quote. Forget your console loyalties/biases for a second, or what you think of Nintendo games or mascots.. or that he even mentions Sony and MS in the quote. The basic premise behind this quote shows that nintendo gets "it". You can "work to expand the market" as much as you want, by aligning yourself with schools, MTV, Linkin Park, Paris Hilton, whatever. But none of that shit is going to get people who really don't want to play video games to play video games.

When Iwata first became president of Nintendo I took it as just another executive guy taking charge of another high profile company. It is rare to see someone become so attuned to the company and so aware of the industry that they are able to pull a turn around like he has. Heck, the only other recent company I can think of off the top of my head is Apple, but that's pretty much what Steve Jobs does. Not to mention he is Apple. About the only other close example I can think of is what Bob Iger is doing over at Disney.

kudos to Iwata. No matter what you think of Nintendo, the man has really turned around a company that was rumored to be heading towards third party for quite a long time.

Where the hell were you 6 pages ago Borghe?

 

[Evlar]

Heretic.

Nerd.

 

[theBishop]

My point was that when we're saying "people don't care about graphics" it doesn't mean we want N64/PS1 graphics. Those graphics were TERRIBLE, horrible framerates, bad draw distances, a blurry(n64)/pixelated(ps1) mess. Last gen (ps2,xbox,gc) fixed those issues for the most part and the graphics are very acceptable now.

As far as new gameplay goes, I'll ask you one simple question and I want you to answer truthfully.

What has made a bigger impact on gameplay: The extra power that the 360/PS3 have over the Wii OR the new wiimote + nunchuck controller?

I don't think either approach has really brought the goods yet.

A few games like Wii Sports and Elebits have done interesting things with how users interact with games. But both are so ridiculously simplified, its hard for me to say they've really made an impact. Just the fact that you don't move in Tennis or Baseball is evidence of that.

Meanwhile, games like Motorstorm and Oblivion have gameplay that couldn't be equaled on last-generation hardware, but they still feel evolutionary.

By this time next year, I don't think there will be any question that more powerful hardware pushed gameplay forward.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Nerd.

Nerdetic.

 

[dammitmattt]

My point was that when we're saying "people don't care about graphics" it doesn't mean we want N64/PS1 graphics. Those graphics were TERRIBLE, horrible framerates, bad draw distances, a blurry(n64)/pixelated(ps1) mess. Last gen (ps2,xbox,gc) fixed those issues for the most part and the graphics are very acceptable now.

As far as new gameplay goes, I'll ask you one simple question and I want you to answer truthfully.

What has made a bigger impact on gameplay: The extra power that the 360/PS3 have over the Wii OR the new wiimote + nunchuck controller?

Honestly, the bigger impact for me is the fully integrated online functionality with the newest version of Xbox Live. Leaderboards, achievements, drop-in/out co-op, and all of the various features touch EVERY 360 game, whereas only a few Wii games are truly changed by the controls.

However, both changes are what I believe will define this generation.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Meanwhile, games like Motorstorm and Oblivion have gameplay that couldn't be equaled on last-generation hardware

Oblivion I will grant you.

But Motorstorm? What gameplay features did it have that could not have been done before?

 

[Jokeropia]

...

Well, it's the truth. Like I said earlier, Wii is outselling the competition combined and doubled while still being affected by shortages.

 

[dammitmattt]

Now that was a good game. I loved Heretic.

The sequels were better.

 

[dammitmattt]

Oblivion I will grant you.

But Motorstorm? What gameplay features did it have that could not have been done before?

Sort of deformed mud?

 

[Razoric]

Honestly, the bigger impact for me is the fully integrated online functionality with the newest version of Xbox Live. Leaderboards, achievements, drop-in/out co-op, and all of the various features touch EVERY 360 game, whereas only a few Wii games are truly changed by the controls.

However, both changes are what I believe will define this generation.

I agree that's why Wii60 rules all.

Personally, I feel XBL has brought more to the gaming table this gen than Wii has so far. Playing through Gears of War with real life friends, forum buddies, etc was probably one of the best gaming experiences I've had in a long time.

 

[theBishop]

Oblivion I will grant you.

But Motorstorm? What gameplay features did it have that could not have been done before?

the physics in that game are beyond any game i can think of right now. the way the mud deforms and affects traction, bits of debris on the road, shocks bounce upon landing, buildings collapse... the whole thing is pretty amazing.

 

[heliosRAzi]

the physics in that game are beyond any game i can think of right now. the way the mud deforms and affects traction, bits of debris on the road, shocks bounce upon landing, buildings collapse... the whole thing is pretty amazing.

Nobody cares about that shit except for the hardest of the hardcore.

It adds nothing to the gameplay.

 

[Razoric]

Nobody cares about that shit except for the hardest of the hardcore.

It adds nothing to the gameplay.

You're right. You could just race around with dots running into other dots. Graphics / physics don't add to any game or lend to the atmosphere at all.

And no one cares either! I mean, if a lot of people don't care, why should I?

Those damn hardcore people. Why can't they be more like us mainstream gamers.

 

[heliosRAzi]

You're right. You could just race around with dots running into other dots. Graphics / physics don't add to any game or lend to the atmosphere at all.

And no one cares either! I mean, if a lot of people don't care, why should I?

Those damn hardcore people. Why can't they be more like us mainstream gamers.

They add to the atmosphere, but not the gameplay. how the hell can see the shocks bounce add to the damn gameplay?

 

[trmas]

Maybe I am Sony defense force; I am uncertain. I buy the exclusives for each console, and am typically not an FPS gamer. My 360 has GoW, GRAW2, Kameo, and will have Blue Dragon, Mass Effect this Fall. I do like PS properties more and am looking forward to HS, R&C, and Drake's fortune this Fall. I like the 360 software, but the hardware sucks IMO.

I want MGS4 and FFXIII to remain exclusive so that they can be made to their best ability. They will also help the PS3 to compete, which makes everything better in the long run. I do not, and probably never will own a wii. Graphics aren't up to par.

But the Wii has won Japan - the rest of the world is still in doubt

 

[theBishop]

They add to the atmosphere, but not the gameplay. how the hell can see the shocks bounce add to the damn gameplay?

this is why the "graphics vs gameplay" people don't get it.

you don't see it, you feel it. the cars bounce. the shocks affect the driving model and contributes to the overall frantic feel of the game.

just like the mud being thrown up on the screen affects the gameplay as well as adding to atmosphere.

would you say the IR/Nightvision filters in Splinter Cell simply add to the atmosphere?

 

[koam]

Honestly, the bigger impact for me is the fully integrated online functionality with the newest version of Xbox Live. Leaderboards, achievements, drop-in/out co-op, and all of the various features touch EVERY 360 game, whereas only a few Wii games are truly changed by the controls.

However, both changes are what I believe will define this generation.

Which has ZERO to do with graphics. Gameplay is far more important than super high tech graphics. Of course, ideally a combination of great graphics, new controls, perfect online and a low price would be best, but we're still years away from that. Unfortunetely, you need to choose which is most important to you, and Nintendo choose that controls and affordability were the best options and so far, based on the sales, the majority of people seem to agree.

 

[felipeko]

this is why the "graphics vs gameplay" people don't get it.

you don't see it, you feel it. the cars bounce. the shocks affect the driving model and contributes to the overall frantic feel of the game.

just like the mud being thrown up on the screen affects the gameplay as well as adding to atmosphere.

would you say the IR/Nightvision filters in Splinter Cell simply add to the atmosphere?

So battle pokemons using pokemon battle revolution on the wii makes you feel it more than on ds?
It just make me go "wow" for a few minutes, after the first impression it's just the same...

 

[Razoric]

this is why the "graphics vs gameplay" people don't get it.

you don't see it, you feel it. the cars bounce. the shocks affect the driving model and contributes to the overall frantic feel of the game.

just like the mud being thrown up on the screen affects the gameplay as well as adding to atmosphere.

would you say the IR/Nightvision filters in Splinter Cell simply add to the atmosphere?

And on that same note, take the exact gameplay mechanices of Manhunt, take out the blood, and change the death scene animations to normal neck snaps and whatnot (basically make it Splinter Cell). That would change the entire game with zero changes to the core gameplay.

Graphics / physics / atmosphere effect gameplay.

 

[ComputerNerd]

I still can't find the enemy, but I found a video of the satellite laser weapon I was talking about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6_UqbQkM1I

It's low quality video, but it works. It's at the end.

 

[dammitmattt]

So battle pokemons using pokemon battle revolution on the wii makes you feel it more than on ds?
It just make me go "wow" for a few minutes, after the first impression it's just the same...

That is a terrible comparison because that doesn't actually affect the gameplay, whereas the physics in Motorstorm do, and physics are what drive racing games.

Which has ZERO to do with graphics. Gameplay is far more important than super high tech graphics. Of course, ideally a combination of great graphics, new controls, perfect online and a low price would be best, but we're still years away from that. Unfortunetely, you need to choose which is most important to you, and Nintendo choose that controls and affordability were the best options and so far, based on the sales, the majority of people seem to agree.

I would argue that HD and proper use of surround sound both add significantly to the gameplay experience, but not everyone has this kind of setup.

 

[borghe]

this is why the "graphics vs gameplay" people don't get it.

you don't see it, you feel it. the cars bounce. the shocks affect the driving model and contributes to the overall frantic feel of the game.

just like the mud being thrown up on the screen affects the gameplay as well as adding to atmosphere.

would you say the IR/Nightvision filters in Splinter Cell simply add to the atmosphere?

unfortunately what part of the physics, for example, is a result of the added horsepower and what part is just learning from the past products is unquantifiable. It's not like games all the sudden have physics where they didn't before. We've seen "physics" in games all the way back to asteroids. To say that what we are seeing in the PS3, motorstorm for example, COULD NOT BE DONE on PS2 is misleading, because the fact is we don't know. Of course a bunch of you are going to jump on me saying "He thinks motorstorm can be done on the Atari" but some of you are asshats, so whatever. The point is that games like motorstorm are only partly accomplished by the horsepower of the PS3. I'm sure if a really accomplished Wii team wanted to include outrageously accurate physics they could do it on that box as well.

 

[koam]

this is why the "graphics vs gameplay" people don't get it.

you don't see it, you feel it. the cars bounce. the shocks affect the driving model and contributes to the overall frantic feel of the game.

just like the mud being thrown up on the screen affects the gameplay as well as adding to atmosphere.

would you say the IR/Nightvision filters in Splinter Cell simply add to the atmosphere?

But those things ARE possible on the Wii. What can the PS3/360 do that can't be scaled to also work on the Wii. Sure it won't be as detailed or sharp, but it's highly possibly. Metroid Prime did all this back in 2002 and many many last gen games had these effects.

How do you replicate Trauma Center with a gamepad and still keep the fast frantic pace? How do you make something like Wii sports on the 360? Godfather suddenly became an excellent title by simply adding controls that mimic reality vs button presses. Something as simple as tilting a controller made Excite Truck so much more fun (yes i know this one is possible on the ps3 but not the 360).

It's simple actions that are fun to do and don't require you to memorize different button configs.

 

[dammitmattt]

But those things ARE possible on the Wii. What can the PS3/360 do that can't be scalled to also happen on the Wii. Sure it won't be as detailed or sharp, but it's highly possibly. Metroid Prime did all this back in 2002 and many many last gen games had these effects.

Regardless of whether it could be done on the Wii, why would you want watered-down next gen experiences? I say create the big budget next gen stuff on the 360/PS3 and target Wii games to the strengths of the console.

Just because something CAN be done, it doesn't mean something SHOULD be done.

 

[felipeko]

That is a terrible comparison because that doesn't actually affect the gameplay, whereas the physics in Motorstorm do, and physics are what drive racing games.

What most affect the gameplay is the design of the game, not the horsepower of the machine.
Wii has a better racing game than Motorstom.

Regardless of whether it could be done on the Wii, why would you want watered-down next gen experiences? I say create the big budget next gen stuff on the 360/PS3 and target Wii games to the strengths of the console.

I would want on Wii because i can afford it. And most of the big budget games you want is sequels from ps2 and xbox, so Wii can handle it.

 

[dammitmattt]

What most affect the gameplay is the design of the game, not the horsepower of the machine.
Wii has a better racing game than Motorstom.

Where is your Junior tag?

 

[MattXG]

Nobody cares about that shit except for the hardest of the hardcore.

It adds nothing to the gameplay.

Ok...so maybe PS3 really doesn't have anything truly next-gen...yet.

But the 360 does.


Take a look at the newest Splinter Cell (conviction). No way in hell that could be done on Xbox 1. The amount of people on screen, the animations, the lighting -- all vastly superior to what we saw on Xbox 1.


And the whole idea behind the game is hiding in the open -- amongst crowds and no xbox 1 couldn't handle crowds as big as Conviction`s with the physics and animations that it has.

Same goes for Assassin's Creed.

 

[koam]

Regardless of whether it could be done on the Wii, why would you want watered-down next gen experiences? I say create the big budget next gen stuff on the 360/PS3 and target Wii games to the strengths of the console.

Just because something CAN be done, it doesn't mean something SHOULD be done.

Because the entire argument here is that people don't care about graphics and that graphics don't change gameplay as much as the wii controller does. The mass amount of people don't want to fork over $400-600 on a console when there's a $250 alternative with watered down graphics and NEW gameplay.

How can you mimic something as simple as bowling or swinging a bat on the PS3 and 360? Using the gimped sixaxis? Pressing A?

 

[Deku]

How can you mimic something as simple as bowling or swinging a bat on the PS3 and 360? Using the gimped sixaxis? Pressing A?

Pressing A! Anyways, I don't think anyone denies that when working on more powerful hardware, developers will implement features that might not scale down properly if at all.

But at the same time, I don't see how the gameplay features on the Wii can be moved to the other consoles either. They [Nintendo] really figured this out and power may not matter much this gen.

 

[theBishop]

But those things ARE possible on the Wii. What can the PS3/360 do that can't be scaled to also work on the Wii. Sure it won't be as detailed or sharp, but it's highly possibly. Metroid Prime did all this back in 2002 and many many last gen games had these effects.

How do you replicate Trauma Center with a gamepad and still keep the fast frantic pace? How do you make something like Wii sports on the 360? Godfather suddenly became an excellent title by simply adding controls that mimic reality vs button presses. Something as simple as tilting a controller made Excite Truck so much more fun (yes i know this one is possible on the ps3 but not the 360).

It's simple actions that are fun to do and don't require you to memorize different button configs.

The question is how far can you scale these things down and still credibly slap the title on it? Could Oblivion be ported to Wii? Maybe. But once you take out all the things needed for the Wii to run it, you may have lost what makes it Oblivion.

 

[MattXG]

Because the entire argument here is that people don't care about graphics and that graphics don't change gameplay as much as the wii controller does. The mass amount of people don't want to fork over $400-600 on a console when there's a $250 alternative with watered down graphics and NEW gameplay.

How can you mimic something as simple as bowling or swinging a bat on the PS3 and 360? Using the gimped sixaxis? Pressing A?

How will you be able to look at 2001 graphics in 2009?


How will you be able to mimic something as awesome as Assassin's Creed or Halo 3 or GTA4 on Wii? More gimped waggle wand mini-games? More light gun-like games? No, thank you.

 

[ComputerNerd]

I found the enemy. My memory is a little faulty. All I remembered were legs coming out of the ground. Didn't remember there was a body with it. Apparently it's more like an insect monster.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0cJA-W-7ek

Exactly 3:13 in.

Anyway, it was shortly after that enemy that I got bored and quite. My favorite part of the game was shooting all the little black insects.


Anyway, the video shows Insect Monster #2. You fight the first one like a few minutes before that one. You fight the first one right after somebody I believe gives you the satellite laser gun. It was a smaller insect monster, if I remember.

Edit: So the order goes like this: You get the satellite laser gun. You have to drop a weapon in order to get it. You kill small Insect Monster #1 with it. Then you go and kill Insect Monster #2 with it. My problem was I swapped the weapon out after I killed the first one. I had to go back and get the weapon again when I saw #2.

 

[theBishop]

How can you mimic something as simple as bowling or swinging a bat on the PS3 and 360? Using the gimped sixaxis? Pressing A?

The question is why are you swinging a bat or bowling? Are these activities intrinsically fun?

 

[Deku]

The question is why are you swinging a bat or bowling? Are these activities intrinsically fun?

Is pressing A more fun? That's the question.

 

[Scrow]

-Ubisoft says Nintendo is best console maker to work with

i find that hard to believe. from what limited experience i have microsoft seems better.

Wii's success has done little to convince Microsoft execs that they'rs on the wrong course (Peter Moore: "I love the experience, the price point and Nintendo content of the Wii, but Microsoft provides experiences that Nintendo cannot provide")

cannot provide? chooses not to provide.

- CEO of SCE America says give credit to Nintendo but points out that Sony have a innovative controller as well

:lol

- Sony views the world through the eyes of an engineer while Nintendo takes its cues from the outside world (eg. Pikmin from Miyamoto's garden)

yeah, because Nintendo designs and develops games with magic pixie dust, not computer engineering....

- cut $50 of Wii price to compete with future price cuts for MS and Sony

they don't need to price cut.

- relationship between Mac/PC - iTune - iPod could be like Wii - DS

that'd be nice, but i doubt it'll happen to the extent we've come to expect from the Mac/PC - iTune - iPod interoperability.

- needs more stock, did not expect Wii to be so popular....currently making 1M a month but want 1.5M - 2M but its difficult

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