Support NeoGAF

[Emitan]

360 needs a way to turn off achievement notifications without turning off all notifications. I wish Sony didn't require trophies like before.

 

[distrbnce]

The only thing I don't like about BLOW is that he is one of those "my way or the highway" people, which makes him very hard to like or even respect. I'm not saying XBLA doesn't have its share of issues but overall XBLA has been a huge success.

The game industry could use more developers with a backbone...

Stand your ground. Make YOUR game.

Spoiler

Do NOT visit NeoGAF.

 

[Castor Krieg]

The crux of his argument though is that Microsoft is no longer a necessary food source.

I think people deluded themselves by thinking XBLA will be some sort of Indie heaven. Console business is not Indie-friendly, if you need to start somewhere start on PC.

 

[Emitan]

The game industry could use more developers with a backbone...

Stand your ground. Make YOUR game.

Spoiler

Do NOT visit NeoGAF.

They should visit NeoGAF and do the opposite of what we say.

 

[angelfly]

The game industry could use more developers with a backbone...

Stand your ground. Make YOUR game.

Spoiler

Do NOT visit NeoGAF.

Go listen to the Giant Bomb E3 special and you can hear him argue about it with some MS guys.

 

[hey_it's_that_dog]

The only thing I don't like about BLOW is that he is one of those "my way or the highway" people, which makes him very hard to like or even respect. I'm not saying XBLA doesn't have its share of issues but overall XBLA has been a huge success.

People are constantly complaining about the homogenization of big budget games and lamenting the good old days when there was more creativity and diversity.

And you dislike and don't respect a developer for having a vision and wanting to stick to it. Why? Are you somehow emotionally invested in XBLA to the extent that you take offense on its behalf when J. Blow says he doesn't like the way they operate and he doesn't necessarily need them?

Even if you are correct and he's a completely stubborn "my way or the high way" type of person, he does his design work alone. He made Braid with one other person, who did the art. He's hiring people to do production work on the Witness, but he did all the design himself (according to the recent Bombcast). How does he not deserve to do things his way?

 

[distrbnce]

Go listen to the Giant Bomb E3 special and you can hear him argue about it with some MS guys.

Yeah, I heard it back when it aired, so I feel like I know exactly what he's talking about in this article. I do agree that everyone defending the bureaucratic nonsense needs to hear it though.

 

[distrbnce]

People are constantly complaining about the homogenization of big budget games and lamenting the good old days when there was more creativity and diversity.

And you dislike and don't respect a developer for having a vision and wanting to stick to it. Why? Are you somehow emotionally invested in XBLA to the extent that you take offense on its behalf when J. Blow says he doesn't like the way they operate and he doesn't necessarily need them?

"Er, well it's hard to like or respect a guy that has a different opinion than Microsoft's bean counters" - The rest of this thread

 

[Warm Machine]

I can see how someone new to certification would find it punishing but most game developers in the console arena go through it as a necessary evil and players appreciate the effort even though they don't even know it exists. It effects every game, first party and third party.

You want to skip the extreme cert process but want to have an Xbox 360 game, put your game on XBLIG. The more good games that hit the channel the more people will go there. It was just proven again that enough people go there now to make FortressCraft sell $1,000,000 worth.

 

[hey_it's_that_dog]

"Er, well it's hard to like or respect a guy that has a different opinion than Microsoft's bean counters" - The rest of this thread

Jonathan Blow threads are usually pretty bad threads.

 

[Sutton Dagger]

Yeah, I heard it back when it aired, so I feel like I know exactly what he's talking about in this article. I do agree that everyone defending the bureaucratic nonsense needs to hear it though.

Yeah that was a great listen, and it made me respect his position even more as he wasn't afraid to let MS's representatives know his issues. Hopefully they took onboard some of his critiques (they said they would but who knows) and we see The Witness come to XBLA.

 

[hey_it's_that_dog]

I can see how someone new to certification would find it punishing but most game developers in the console arena go through it as a necessary evil and players appreciate the effort even though they don't even know it exists. It effects every game, first party and third party.

You want to skip the extreme cert process but want to have an Xbox 360 game, put your game on XBLIG. The more good games that hit the channel the more people will go there. It was just proven again that enough people go there now to make FortressCraft sell $1,000,000 worth.

What's the maximum price for an XBLIG? I suspect this game has a substantial budget for an indie and he would like to price it in the $10-20 range.

 

[sykoex]

It's not like anyone forced him to make a game for Xbox Live, he went where the audience was, and in return he got massive exposure. Seems like a fair trade.

Look at Bastion, no one other than Giant Bomb would have paid attention to it so they had to go Xbox Live exclusive and MS put their marketing power behind it.

 

[hey_it's_that_dog]

It's not like anyone forced him to make a game for Xbox Live, he went where the audience was, and in return he got massive exposure. Seems like a fair trade.

Look at Bastion, no one other than Giant Bomb would have paid attention to it so they had to go Xbox Live exclusive and MS put their marketing power behind it.

Wish it wasn't Xbox Live exclusive because I was totally going to buy it when it came out for PC next week.

 

[Warm Machine]

What's the maximum price for an XBLIG? I suspect this game has a substantial budget for an indie and he would like to price it in the $10-20 range.

$10 I think. EZMuze is/was 800pts.

 

[SapientWolf]

$10 I think. EZMuze is/was 800pts.

400 pts now. Games that were 800 pts before the change can keep their price.

 

[sykoex]

Wish it wasn't Xbox Live exclusive because I was totally going to buy it when it came out for PC next week.

That's not day and date, I imagine at some point it'll come to PSN even like Braid did.

 

[hey_it's_that_dog]

That's not day and date, I imagine at some point it'll come to PSN even like Braid did.

It's what, 2 weeks later on PC? How much marketing money will MS throw their way for that? The point is it's not a real exclusive.

 

[sykoex]

It's what, 2 weeks later on PC? How much marketing money will MS throw their way for that? The point is it's not a real exclusive.

In Microsoft's eyes it is.

 

[hey_it's_that_dog]

In Microsoft's eyes it is.

So "exclusive" doesn't mean anything. Got it.

 

[XANDER CAGE]

"Er, well it's hard to like or respect a guy that has a different opinion than Microsoft's bean counters" - The rest of this thread

You poison that well mister

poison it good

I don't like Blow much because frankly, I think Braid was all great ideas and sloppy execution. I also found many of his post-Braid antics incredibly stupid, like his PAX thing last year that accomplished absolutely nothing. He's an ideas man, and I respect him for sticking to his guns, but I feel like he's one of those guys who wants to paint a masterpiece before he knows how to draw.

I definitely gained some respect for him during the E3 Bombcast, but I still wouldn't consider myself a fan. It has nothing to do with me sucking up to Microsoft "bean counters".

 

[sykoex]

So "exclusive" doesn't mean anything. Got it.

But the fact is all things being equal, lets say someone owns an Xbox, Wii, PS3, and PC (that can only run Bastion as well as an Xbox), coming out even a day early is enough.

 

[SpaceDrake]

At the end of the day, XBLA is still the biggest place for Indie, even if Steam CAN catch up.

What? No it isn't, Steam's already eclipsed the raw sales XBLA can give a title. Multiple independent developers (Blow, Team Meat, etc) have flat-out said as much. The dudebro segment that makes up the majority of the current 360 userbase gives no fucks about non-corporate gaming, and Steam gives such titles more visibility anyway due to the way the storefront is set up.

 

[kodecraft]

The crux of his argument though is that Microsoft is no longer a necessary food source.

+1
Boom!

it's like sticking it to The Man

 

[Exclamation-One]

The same XBLA that gave him a huge break and made him lots of money, I'm assuming.

Wrong. Everyone knows it was Soulja Boy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSXofLK5hFQ&fmt=18

 

[Helmholtz]

People who don't know about the restraints XBLA puts on indie devs should check out one of the last episodes (can't remember which exactly) of Building the Bastion on Giant Bomb. It's pretty ridiculous and time consuming, and it can also limit what a game can do in some ways.
I loved Braid and am looking forward to The Witness. I'm also glad Blow is a Steam supporter since it's my platform of choice.

 

[Mxrz]

I feel like a staving kid shouting "PSN! PSN!" but I suppose I should man up and eat my hotcupa Steam and be grateful for it. Still wish XBLA/MS didn't have so much say in what goes on with games. I might actually get console skyrim mod support otherwise. /sob

 

[Gaspode_T]

Many "indie" developed XBLA games are contracted in a way that the developers get paid a lump sum that is the same $ amount no matter how poorly the game sells, then they receive royalties only if the game sells well. So having a publisher step in and kind of "buy" the game from the indie dev is in a way less risk for the indie dev, more risk for the publisher.

The publishers are the ones that want the XBLA platform to be very tightly controlled by Microsoft and not flooded with games. If MS didn't have to balance priorities it would probably be possible for them to just flood 20+ games per month onto there by reducing release requirements and speeding up cert process, but that would be a total disaster because unfortunately there isn't enough demand for that many different XBLA games.

Free 2 play games are the other thing that could turn this whole argument upside down, it's been rumored for months now that F2P will be allowed. I have no idea how that will change the market dynamics of console games, but my impression is that adding yet another game genre that people dig themselves into and never poke their head out for air will be good only for that genre and nothing else.

Mutliplayer shooters are basically one of these that hooks people in and doesn't let them go, so many gamers play nothing but Blops it's kind of sad. So now we might have people addicted to a handful of F2P games and pouring money into the system but it will only go to MS and a single publisher. I would much rather people spend more money in the XBLIG channel or on more XBLA games in general. At least the Rewards system seems to be set up to reward people who buy lots of games.

This reminds me a lot of music industry problems, sure you can figure out a way to sell and release music without going through a record label but at a certain point they are bound to run into growing pains or kind of stay underground...if you are happy staying underground, maybe that's cool...otherwise having the label is probably important for hiring extra people to work for you, helping organize tours, etc. Publishers aren't always evil, the "corporate" style system that Rlan is also mentioning is set up so that the publisher takes most of the pain that Blow is talking about, when an indie is feeling pain from that maybe they have a crappy/evil publisher or tight deadline...

 

[GhaleonEB]

Some games self-identify as striving to exhibit artistic qualities, while other games self-identify as striving to exhibit toy qualities or entertainment qualities. This isn't someone judging some games as art and some not, it's someone judging his own games as trying to be art.

I agree, and would draw a parallel to the art house film studios. I don't understand how identifying as an art game studio is any different, or why it's suddenly pretentious. The niche spans creative mediums.

 

[Captain Fish]

For those touting XBLIG, isn't that store front super bloated and hard to navigate? I remember Giant Bomb staff saying it's a chore to find cool stuff.

It's also fundamentally weird to separate Arcade games from the indie stuff. Steam may put indie on the games that have smaller teams, but when they're about to release and if they sell well they'll get just as much front page real estate as any AAA title.

 

[Warm Machine]

For those touting XBLIG, isn't that store front super bloated and hard to navigate? I remember Giant Bomb staff saying it's a chore to find cool stuff.

It's also fundamentally weird to separate Arcade games from the indie stuff. Steam may put indie on the games that have smaller teams, but when they're about to release and if they sell well they'll get just as much front page real estate as any AAA title.

Try it yourself. It isn't perfect by Amy stretch nut they have been trying to make it better. It is just a low priority for MS. However, they just made $300,000 from Fortresscraft so perhaps they will begin to change their minds. If more people did venture there and spend money the priority on it would shift dramatically.

 

[Fafalada]

So now we might have people addicted to a handful of F2P games and pouring money into the system but it will only go to MS and a single publisher.

First there will need to be quality F2P games available - Sony allowed this on PSN for years and there's yet to be any.
That said - F2P in mature markets is served through publisher-portals/social-networks that are very much alike to Console networks - ie. if MS knows what they're doing they should be positioning themselves as the operator/publisher of F2P games - any other model is likely doomed to fail because the entire premise of F2P is ill positioned for operators to be subject to Network holder restrictions and what not.

 

[ampere]

I'll be buying his next game on Steam.

I bought Braid on XBLA and later Steam, but I would have just as easily have bought it on Steam initially had it been there. It's hard for me to remember, but I guess a Steam only release didn't seem lucrative back then.

 

[RuGalz]

Because XBLA sales are generally much stronger than PSN sales. Not to mention the game development itself is easier on 360 than on PS3.

And about the Bombcast, one of the main things he mentioned IIRC was that MS forces every game to have a main menu. I guess Blow doesn't want menus in his games? Sounded pretty weird to me tbh.

While it is true the number tend to be higher, it is not always true what devs eventually get back is higher depending on how much negotiation power you had.

That said - F2P in mature markets is served through publisher-portals/social-networks that are very much alike to Console networks - ie. if MS knows what they're doing they should be positioning themselves as the operator/publisher of F2P games - any other model is likely doomed to fail because the entire premise of F2P is ill positioned for operators to be subject to Network holder restrictions and what not.

Most F2P publishers probably never published disc games so by MS restrictions that determines who can publish on XBLA, they are already out of the picture so the default would have to be MS anyway.

 

[Fafalada]

Most F2P publishers probably never published disc games so by MS restrictions that determines who can publish on XBLA, they are already out of the picture so the default would have to be MS anyway.

Well current MS restrictions allow no F2P games, regardless of who publishes them Though that's one messed up limitation.
But ultimately it's the issue of game-operators needing control on a level that only MS has. The notion of using XBLA only as your Wallet-platform for a F2P game is just not going to work - and if MS refuses to give up control over content distribution(and a few other things), then they should either take up the role of the operator themselves or give up on the model.

 

[Gaspode_T]

Yeah, I basically just think Microsoft won't suddenly take out the requirements that Jonathan Blow is complaining about and release dozens of games on 360 per month, it is not the same type of marketplace as iOS or even Steam. My impression is that people use a game console as a means to fulfill a very specific desire, sports fans will buy FIFA or Madden, racing games fans will buy Forza, Blops fans will buy Blops map packs, Just Dance fans buy Just Dance, etc... only a very small % of the gaming population buys lots of different genres of games and maybe a similar % are the ones that are putting $ into the XBLA ecosystem.

It's frustrating to me because I think people used to buy more wide variety of games "back in the day", and I have a hard time pinning down what the difference is.

In general, people like Jonathan Blow should be wondering how to get the greater console gaming population to look forward to PSN and XBLA releases as much as their retail releases...this is just my opinion, but that is a more optimistic and healthy angle than just complaining about the situation and relying upon PC gamers to fill your pockets.

A game like Outland should have sold way more than it did on both PSN/XBLA. I don't really buy that indie games have to be on PC, it's just seems that PC gamers happen to be on average much more willing to buy them right now. I think the next step in evolution is to maybe make the XBLA/PSN games more appealing by making them a little more casual, F2P, social, connect with mobile phone versions, etc...sort of "AA" indie game that runs on any device (like Ruin for PS3/PSN) is what I envision as the near-future of XBLA/PSN world.

 

[guidestone]

No, calling your company a art game company sounds to me a bit pretentious. Like somebody said in the comment section of Gamesutra, he is also fast to jump on anybody that doesn't think like he does.

I thought Braid was not art, it was just a platformer with a time-machanic and the music was annoying. If I would classify anything as art, I would have given it to Limbo (but that me though).

Not one of those pretentious "art" games are particularly good. They are trash. "Art game" usually is a label for a game with bad design and mechanics, but with some kind of "sentimental" and "meaningful" aspects.
http://insomnia.ac/reviews/introducing_the_indie_scene/
http://insomnia.ac/essays/the_piracy_of_art/

You should start educating yourselves on art, philosophy and game design. For starters, start reading the site I've just linked.