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[sarcastor]

ugh, I was waiting for this excuse. Next someone will tell me that breaks in logic this like don't matter for a show with dragons and zombies in it. no. It's bad writing, pure and simple.

It's the first time we see a real bad ass dragon wrecking havoc on a bunch of foot soldiers who are clearly unprepared. The only defense they have is a giant cross bow.

Sure she could have just flown at a steeper angle and destroyed it. But the whole point was to have some dramatic tension. Also show the audience that danyras is not safe, even on the back of a giant dragon. For a second I was worried the dragon might even get killed.

Also danyras has no formal training in warfare I believe. She didn't consult the blueprints of the cross bow.

It's not bad writing. Just sit back and enjoy the show, man. What's next, complaining about storm troopers aiming like shit?

 

[andythinkpad]

The war scene looks better and wat more exciting than any dragon related battle scene in any movie I ever seen. Hobbits included. I wouldn't be surprised if they spent movie action budget to make this.

 

[Angry Grimace]

This is the answer to the question of "where is Ghost"

 

[Kayhan]

But who pumped the tires on the wagon that carried the Scorpion ballista?

That is what I need to know from this hack fantasy show.

 

[Seductivpancakes]

Lots of things, including Game of Thrones in seasons 1-3, and most of 4.

And I mean realistic within the context of the world in the show, before anyone starts.

As someone said above - it's not Drogon being hit that I take issue with. It's how he was hit. This show is filled with cliches now, and characters are acting uncharacteristically in order to service the plot. Cersei needed to get into a position of power, and so Tyrion becomes the fool. We also have Euron teleporting all over the map and the Lannister armies making decisions that would only make sense if they had perfect knowledge of Daenerys' actions. This battle is just another example of the way the quality of the show has nosedived.

I believe most of the sword fights in GoT considered unrealistic by a lot of HEMA practitioners. So I guess season 1 - 3 realism is broken.

 

[RespectThySole]

Top 5 episode, but Battle of the Bastards still reigns supreme.

 

[jett]

This is the answer to the question of "where is Ghost"

Nymeria got a scene tho

Meanwhile Ghost has been missing all season.

 

[zsynqx]

it was great. With this, and hardhome before it, they really succeeded in establishing the true power of the night king and the destructive capabilities of the dragons.

If I were to rank the battles

1) Hardhome
2) Loot Train
3) Black Water
4) Watchers on the Wall
5) Bastards

Technically speaking Bastards probably wins. Just felt it was the weakest narratively.

 

[afroguy10]

I legit thought the same thing. Also my few encounters with Benioff he is a HUGE gamer. Loves Halo. So loot train was 100% a deliberate game reference.

What? It was a long line of wagons filled with loot gained from storming Highgarden that formed a train. That's why it's called the Loot Train Scene.

 

[broncobuster]

Drogon emerging from the clouds is great. Game changing in the show. I know it's not the first dragon attack but it goes from a faint hope of holding off the Dothraki to totally helpless.

 

[Magic Mushroom]

Thrones shames most movies.

Sapochnik gonna pull out all the stops next season.

Spoiler

BELIEVE

 

[LifEndz]

That scene was so tense for me because, in the books (I know...sorry), the idiotic behavior exhibited by Bronn and Jaime would've resorted in their deaths. They whole time I was preparing for this to be their final episode, and they ruined all that suspense by resorting to a cheesy appear out of nowhere and push out of danger move.

The special effects were amazing tho. They've come a long way from rubber drogon. Makes me exited for the Targaryen spin off series.

 

[Kayhan]

I legit thought the same thing. Also my few encounters with Benioff he is a HUGE gamer. Loves Halo. So loot train was 100% a deliberate game reference.

Each Lannister trooper and wagon only netted a small amount of XP but Drogon definitely leveled up that day.

 

[nkarafo]

Jaime = best character. Jon who?

Not after what he did to a nephew of his when they were captured, just so he can escape.

That scene ruined the character forever.

 

[Macka]

I've seen this a lot and I don't really understand why people take issue with it.

Tyrion played a neat little trick at Blackwater with wildfire, but aside from that what has he ever done to make anyone think he is a military genius, or a brilliant tactician?

...

Experience as a battle tactician or not, Tyrion is intelligent. Most of his plans this season don't line up with what I've come to expect from him as a character.

I mean, let's start with the idea that laying siege to King's Landing is somehow 'better for the people' than attacking with the dragons. Is this not an utterly ridiculous idea? It's not Cersei or the soldiers that would be starving to death in that situation - it would be the lowborn people of the city. Tyrion would absolutely know this. It makes much more sense to attack quickly and decisively, but the show needs a way to justify Cersei's continued existence, and Tyrion becomes the fool.

Then there's the fact that Tyrion was literally the Master of Coin for a time. I find it hard to believe he wouldn't be aware of the dire straits the Lannisters were in with money, or at the very least that the mines of Casterly Rock had started to dry up. I know Tywin likely wouldn't have told him, but Tyrion is a perceptive fellow, and there would be other signs. Even if he somehow hadn't picked up on any of that - he was definitely aware that the Euron had aligned with Cersei. Pyke is very close to Casterly Rock. The idea that Tyrion would fail to anticipate an attack from there is ridiculous tbh.

Seriously. But Cersei needs to gain an advantage in the war, and so Tyrion becomes the fool.

And then as I said before - the movements of the Lannister forces don't make much sense unless they have perfect knowledge of Daenerys' plans. How did Euron know he'd find Ellaria and the Sand Snakes aboard those ships? Why would the Lannisters extend themselves to the South to attack Highgarden (in what should realistically have been an incredibly long siege - we're talking months at minimum), when as far as they know Daenerys could be attacking King's Landing at any moment? Moreover, how is Varys, the 'Master of Spies' not able to gain any intel in the other direction? Because everything this season is contrived, that's why. I have expect them to reveal him as a double-agent in order to justify all of this, even though it would make zero sense whatsoever.

 

[Jumeira]

I was on the edge of my seat, blown away at the production.

GoT guys are showing up lots of big budget films, the fact they put out multiple 1 hour footage at this quality is staggering in itself.

 

[TAJ]

Wyverns of Mass Dragonfire

Cute.
But one garden-variety cluster bomb (a middle-of-the-road conventional weapon) is far more devastating than one burst of dragonfire.

 

[Macka]

I believe most of the sword fights in GoT considered unrealistic by a lot of HEMA practitioners. So I guess season 1 - 3 realism is broken.

Even I'm not that pedantic.

 

[DrForester]

That scene was so tense for me because, in the books (I know...sorry), the idiotic behavior exhibited by Bronn and Jaime would've resorted in their deaths. They whole time I was preparing for this to be their final episode, and they ruined all that suspense by resorting to a cheesy appear out of nowhere and push out of danger move.

The special effects were amazing tho. They've come a long way from rubber drogon. Makes me exited for the Targaryen spin off series.

Jaime can't die until he backstabs Cersei.

Shocking that Bronn lived.

 

[Pillville]

using weapons of mass destruction is a war crime

Killing ~100 soldiers, in battle, is mass destruction?
I got some bad news for you about modern bombs and missiles. And whatever you do don't watch the beginning of Saving Private Ryan.

 

[pablito]

That scene was so tense for me because, in the books (I know...sorry), the idiotic behavior exhibited by Bronn and Jaime would've resorted in their deaths. They whole time I was preparing for this to be their final episode, and they ruined all that suspense by resorting to a cheesy appear out of nowhere and push out of danger move.

The special effects were amazing tho. They've come a long way from rubber drogon. Makes me exited for the Targaryen spin off series.

I was really expecting Bronn to die. I'm actually kind of mad he didn't, even though I like the guy. I'm sure the anger will go away if we get a good Bronn and Tyrion (and Jamie) reunion.

 

[Seductivpancakes]

Jaime can't die until he backstabs Cersei.

Shocking that Bronn lived.

Or at he very least, have a reunion with his brother.

 

[Neece]

I mean, let's start with the idea that laying siege to King's Landing is somehow 'better for the people' than attacking with the dragons. Is this not an utterly ridiculous idea? It's not Cersei or the soldiers that would be starving to death in that situation - it would be the lowborn people of the city. Tyrion would absolutely know this. It makes much more sense to attack quickly and decisively, but the show needs a way to justify Cersei's continued existence, and Tyrion becomes the fool.

Most of the things you listed are about other issues you have, and don't paint Tyrion as a fool, so I'll just respond to this.

Laying siege to King's Landing and the Red Keep doesn't seem to be especially arduous. And Tyrion would know this first hand, considering Stannis nearly took the city in a single night and Cersei was planning for the Keep itself to be taken that night even though Tyrion planned the defense for nearly an entire season. He knows it can be done quickly and decisively, and it makes sense why he wouldn't want a dragon attack to be deciding factor.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

So, that's a budget.

 

[Apt101]

If I had written the scene, Bronn would have fired himself out of that contraption and smote Drogon with his ugly sword.

 

[Macka]

Most of the things you listed are about other issues you have, and don't paint Tyrion as a fool, so I'll just respond to this.

Laying siege to King's Landing and the Red Keep doesn't seem to be especially arduous. And Tyrion would know this first hand, considering Stannis nearly took the city in a single night and Cersei was planning for the Keep itself to be taken that night even though Tyrion planned the defense for nearly an entire season. He knows it can be done quickly and decisively, and it makes sense why he wouldn't want a dragon attack to be deciding factor.

You don't think that Tyrion wanting to attack Casterly Rock with Euron patrolling the seas was a bad idea?

And Stannis had 200 ships. Daenerys would be lucky to have half as many at this point. Stannis' host also heavily outnumbered them as most of their army was busy fighting Robb and the Northerners. Daenerys would definitely need the dragons if she wanted to take the city quickly and decisively.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

The making of is an interesting watch and confirmed some of my suspicions. With all the people complaining why Dany blew up all the wagons full of food when her army needs feeding... it's because that's where all the explosives and pyrotechnic stuff are.

I thought it was brilliant. The army is across a river from supplies, wiping out their support was an efficient use of dragonfire and would ensure a surrender if the battle drug on.

 

[MoonsaultSlayer]

Experience as a battle tactician or not, Tyrion is intelligent. Most of his plans this season don't line up with what I've come to expect from him as a character.

I mean, let's start with the idea that laying siege to King's Landing is somehow 'better for the people' than attacking with the dragons. Is this not an utterly ridiculous idea? It's not Cersei or the soldiers that would be starving to death in that situation - it would be the lowborn people of the city. Tyrion would absolutely know this. It makes much more sense to attack quickly and decisively, but the show needs a way to justify Cersei's continued existence, and Tyrion becomes the fool.

Then there's the fact that Tyrion was literally the Master of Coin for a time. I find it hard to believe he wouldn't be aware of the dire straits the Lannisters were in with money, or at the very least that the mines of Casterly Rock had started to dry up. I know Tywin likely wouldn't have told him, but Tyrion is a perceptive fellow, and there would be other signs. Even if he somehow hadn't picked up on any of that - he was definitely aware that the Euron had aligned with Cersei. Pyke is very close to Casterly Rock. The idea that Tyrion would fail to anticipate an attack from there is ridiculous tbh.



Seriously. But Cersei needs to gain an advantage in the war, and so Tyrion becomes the fool.

And then as I said before - the movements of the Lannister forces don't make much sense unless they have perfect knowledge of Daenerys' plans. How did Euron know he'd find Ellaria and the Sand Snakes aboard those ships? Why would the Lannisters extend themselves to the South to attack Highgarden (in what should realistically have been an incredibly long siege - we're talking months at minimum), when as far as they know Daenerys could be attacking King's Landing at any moment? Moreover, how is Varys, the 'Master of Spies' not able to gain any intel in the other direction? Because everything this season is contrived, that's why. I have expect them to reveal him as a double-agent in order to justify all of this, even though it would make zero sense whatsoever.

Me thinks Tyrion being away for so long x Varys giving false info (!) lead to Tyrion making poor decisions which will be revealed in a later episode when he finally gets his wits back.

 

[mugoldeneagle03]

What made Drogon look so good was how they paired him with fire, explosions, smoke, & clouds. When you're not focusing on the dragon by itself while adding insane effects AND upping the CG budget, you get bad ass looking scenes like this beauty. The sequence from the Pit look laughable now in comparison.

As for overall battles it doesn't top Hardhome for me or BotB. Easy 3rd place though. Of course Jaime couldn't die...it was a cheesy ending but necessary for end game (c'mon we all wan't him to kill Cersei!). Bronn should have died though, I honestly don't know how much character development he has left to show especially after leaving that gold behind.

Just as TV fan though it's hard not to think about how insane shows are now a days, and how far they've come some quickly. Best part about Game of Thrones is that it's completely upping the ante, and hopefully the competition grows from it.

 

[ArjanN]

Not bad, although it's still pretty obvious there's only like 10 actual people in the battle.

 

[Joeku]

Thrones shames most movies.

Sapochnik gonna pull out all the stops next season.

Spoiler

BELIEVE

Please god let this be true. Give Sapochnik all the budget.

 

[Einchy]

Please god let this be true. Give Sapochnik all the budget.

He said he'd like to come back so here's hoping.

 

[LifEndz]

Jaime can't die until he backstabs Cersei.

Wouldn't that already have happened? What more would she have to do? She already did the thing that Jamie killed the Mad King for. I guess her infidelity with Lancel is still unknown to Jamie but would that be enough?

 

[Gattsu25]

The overhead shot where Drogon is blasting the wagons is my single favorite explosive sequence in any film or show of the past decade. I loved this entire battle sequence even if Bronn should have been burnt to ashes twice during it.

While the whole sequence was absolutely amazing, the beauty of this scene in particular stuck with me. Incredibly beautiful-

Yup. That blew me away when I first saw it.

 

[Seductivpancakes]

Wouldn't that already have happened? What more would she have to do? She already did the thing that Jamie killed the Mad King for. I guess her infidelity with Lancel is still unknown to Jamie but would that be enough?

Well the Mad king wanted to burn the entire city down. Like everyone.

 

[DrSlek]

Light cavalry, not equipped to play a shock role, charging emplaced heavy infantry head on instead of hitting them in their flanks. Oh, and the battlefield is a wide open plain with no cover, and the cavalry hold the numerical advantage. And the cavalry possess a siege weapon that can tear up tightly clustered ranks.

Oh, Hollywood. You never change.

Aren't the Dothraki supposed to be the Westeros equivalent of the steppe peoples? They shouldn't be idiots charging heavy infantry with nothing but sabers.

I was hoping to see Steppe Horde tactics as described in Marco Polos travels. Where horse archers would swarm in to shoot, and then pretend to retreat and draw the enemy force forward, then repeat the process again and again to slowly whittle down the enemy ranks without the enemy even realising that they're losing until it's too late. Or maybe something else like a Cantabarian circle.

The thing that annoyed me the most is the Dothraki pouring through the gap that Drogon made in the Lanister line, but then Drogon circles back around to destroy the wagons, the gap is completely empty and the Dothraki are gone.

 

[pablito]

Wouldn't that already have happened? What more would she have to do? She already did the thing that Jamie killed the Mad King for. I guess her infidelity with Lancel is still unknown to Jamie but would that be enough?

At this point I only see him ditching her, not killing her. He should be Dany's captive now. Jon's trying to get her to fight the WWs, and he'll succeed eventually. She already said she will if he bends her over the knee. Jamie could get convinced, Cersei won't give a shit, and he finally goes yeah bye.

 

[bill0527]

What I loved about that whole scene was the fact I honestly didn't know if Jamie or Bronx were going to make it out of that.

The time for plot armor is nearing an end unless you're Cersei, Dany, John Snow, or a special effect.

 

[Ocarina_117]

While the whole sequence was absolutely amazing, the beauty of this scene in particular stuck with me. Incredibly beautiful-

Breathtaking.

 

[Bornstellar]

It's always awesome how much foreshadowing this show has and its always really subtle. Like Jon dies and comes back and his wolf is named ghost

Sansa wolf was named lady and she is now the lady of winterfell.

Rickon/Shaggy dog - Rickon's a shaggy dog story.
Bran/Summer - Died with the arrival of winter.
Robb/Grey Wind - A strong gust which dies out
Arya/Nymeria - Warrior queen
Ghost - Practically invisible... :|

 

[jviggy43]

It's the first time we see a real bad ass dragon wrecking havoc on a bunch of foot soldiers who are clearly unprepared. The only defense they have is a giant cross bow.

Sure she could have just flown at a steeper angle and destroyed it. But the whole point was to have some dramatic tension. Also show the audience that danyras is not safe, even on the back of a giant dragon. For a second I was worried the dragon might even get killed.

Also danyras has no formal training in warfare I believe. She didn't consult the blueprints of the cross bow.

It's not bad writing. Just sit back and enjoy the show, man. What's next, complaining about storm troopers aiming like shit?

Creating dramatic tension due to writing characters doing something stupid is, and always will be, stupid. Its bad writing. She knew spears and the like could hurt her dragons. She saw a giant sized arrow fly right past her moments before deciding to fly straight into the one thing that could hurt it. All of the tension was immediately ruined for me when her and Jaime decided to just make brash, uncharacteristically poor decisions.

This scene is getting so over hyped. Yeah it was bad ass watching her dragon fuck shit up. But honestly I much prefer scenes of substance than stylized action sequences.

Well, yeah, suspension of disbelief. What's more important, narrative purpose or portraying the most realistic battle possible? Of course they wanted Bronn to land a hit, it served to show that the ballista is actually a legitimate threat, can down and weaken a dragon even with a non-fatal shot, and set up the final scene

An easy way to still have Bronn land a shot while also not having Dany fly her dragon straight into a direct shot, could have been written in a manner which Bronn shot the dragon when it was flying down low and shooting fire over the soldiers. It would make it a much easier target to hit and Dany wouldn't have anticipated the shot. This way we don't have to watch her be completely stupid, and we can also believe at that range Bron could nail a shot off. Idk just seems like such a simple change to that scene that would have made everything feel much more organic. I know not everyone was bothered by it anyway.

 

[zma1013]

Bonus video: The Nerdwriter show the multiple cinematic influences behind the creation of the scene. Really cool video that shows how and where from did the showrunners borrow to construct the entire sequence.

No Dragonheart reference? For shame. That one had some cool firebreathing action.

 

[TissueBox]

Ooh feel like getting back to it now... or at least just this scene.

 

[Nameless]

Experience as a battle tactician or not, Tyrion is intelligent. Most of his plans this season don't line up with what I've come to expect from him as a character.

I mean, let's start with the idea that laying siege to King's Landing is somehow 'better for the people' than attacking with the dragons. Is this not an utterly ridiculous idea? It's not Cersei or the soldiers that would be starving to death in that situation - it would be the lowborn people of the city. Tyrion would absolutely know this. It makes much more sense to attack quickly and decisively, but the show needs a way to justify Cersei's continued existence, and Tyrion becomes the fool.

Then there's the fact that Tyrion was literally the Master of Coin for a time. I find it hard to believe he wouldn't be aware of the dire straits the Lannisters were in with money, or at the very least that the mines of Casterly Rock had started to dry up. I know Tywin likely wouldn't have told him, but Tyrion is a perceptive fellow, and there would be other signs. Even if he somehow hadn't picked up on any of that - he was definitely aware that the Euron had aligned with Cersei. Pyke is very close to Casterly Rock. The idea that Tyrion would fail to anticipate an attack from there is ridiculous tbh.



Seriously. But Cersei needs to gain an advantage in the war, and so Tyrion becomes the fool.

And then as I said before - the movements of the Lannister forces don't make much sense unless they have perfect knowledge of Daenerys' plans. How did Euron know he'd find Ellaria and the Sand Snakes aboard those ships? Why would the Lannisters extend themselves to the South to attack Highgarden (in what should realistically have been an incredibly long siege - we're talking months at minimum), when as far as they know Daenerys could be attacking King's Landing at any moment? Moreover, how is Varys, the 'Master of Spies' not able to gain any intel in the other direction? Because everything this season is contrived, that's why. I have expect them to reveal him as a double-agent in order to justify all of this, even though it would make zero sense whatsoever.

A few things:

You can't understate Tyrion's lack of experience. And not just his, but look at Dany's war council: Her, Tyrion, Elaria, Olenna, Yara, and fucking Theon. None of these people are seasoned battle commanders. Why would they be able to out fox the likes of Jaime, Randyll, or Euron with this elaborate plan? Second, Tyrion's strategy was too idealistic and attempted to solve far too many problems at once. It's exactly what I'd expect out of someone supremely intelligent but inexperienced. It ticked every check box on paper from political messaging to minimal civilian casualties/damage to infrastructure to controlling two seats of power if successful. In practice, though, it left them neutered and vulnerable.

The Lannister army extended that far South because the Reach had the resources they desperately needed to survive a Winter engagement. There was also a plan in place to turn the Tyrell gold into more men, ships, and supplies via the Iron Bank. It was a risk, like any battle strategy, but the rewards might literally decide this war.

Highgarden is a very large castle to defend and a large chunk of Tyrell Bannerman had just switched sides, their most capable men(who knew its defenses well) among them. They wouldn't have stood a chance.

 

[Loxley]

It's times like these I wish Ser Barristan hadn't been killed like a chump so he could still be around to advise Dany. He'd undoubtedly be her go-to tactician.

 

[Cipherr]

There's no Geneva here. She's had dragons since the first season. What did people expect her to use them for?

I refuse to even engage in that convo for that reason. We all knew the dragons would be used for war since they fucking hatched, and since the show itself kept telling us that it was how the seven kingdoms were conquered the first time.

Now after a crazy lady kills god knows how many innocents blowing up the sept, folks are like "How could Dany kill opposing soldiers in an empty field away from innocent civilians like that! its so meaaaaan!"


Nah.

 

[jett]

I refuse to even engage in that convo for that reason. We all knew the dragons would be used for war since they fucking hatched, and since the show itself kept telling us that it was how the seven kingdoms were conquered the first time.

Now after a crazy lady kills god knows how many innocents blowing up the sept, folks are like "How could Dany kill opposing soldiers in an empty field away from innocent civilians like that! its so meaaaaan!"


Nah.

I really have a hard time engaging with people that are attempting to paint the Lannisters as the heroes in this war. It's so disingenuous.

 

[Pagusas]

While the whole sequence was absolutely amazing, the beauty of this scene in particular stuck with me. Incredibly beautiful-

The horrible compression HBO now uses ruined this shot . The mountain was blocking to hell and back

This will be a "buy the bluray set when it's over" for sure show.

 

[Speely]

I can't get behind folks relating Dany burning soldiers on the field to some kind of relatively horrible act when compared with war in general.

Don't get me wrong: I think Dany is spiraling into a dangerous kind of crazy, but just because burning to death is extra-brutal doesn't make it worse than some other kinds of dying on a field in which you chose to fight. Getting stabbed in the abdomen with a sword and then painfully bleeding out for hours is no less horrible than burning. It's probably worse. War is hell, with or without dragons.

 

[Lamel]

The dothraki screech and drogon's wail were legit terrifying.