I love this video.
First time I saw this, I laughed. Second time, I cried. It's just sad how games are these days.
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Games that respect the intelligence of the player.
- Thread starter haikira
- Start date
I love this video.
First time I saw this, I laughed. Second time, I cried. It's just sad how games are these days.
VeryGooster
Banned
I always felt like Ico doesn't ask a whole lot from the player and manages to assist the player the right amount. Its puzzles aren't overly complicated but it doesn't rub the solution in your face either. Great pacing.
Honestly, Pushmo/Pullblox comes to mind also. Every new feature gets introduced and explained after a certain number of puzzles are completed once, but the game still leaves it up to your own devices to get to the goal and doesn't bother you.
Honestly, Pushmo/Pullblox comes to mind also. Every new feature gets introduced and explained after a certain number of puzzles are completed once, but the game still leaves it up to your own devices to get to the goal and doesn't bother you.
I get the idea that you have never played Braid.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Seriously?
kingkaiser
Member
This!
It also explains why so many hated it. I guess mindless item collecting is more entertaining for the masses than being forced to think creatively and finding own solutions in a video game...
Honestly I think Japanese games this generation hold your hand a lot less than most western console games I've played, or at least do so in more elegant ways. Most Japanese console (and handheld) games I've played recently have had relatively unobtrusive tutorials and don't bombard you with hints messages.
One of the starkest differences I've seen has been with loading screens. I hate how every damn game has these ugly loading screens now with tacky tip messages plastered on. Most of the Japanese console games I've played this gen don't do that, and many of them actually have really stylish loading screens. Examples include Bayonetta, Shadows of the Damned, Catherine, 3D Dot Game Heroes, etc.
One of the starkest differences I've seen has been with loading screens. I hate how every damn game has these ugly loading screens now with tacky tip messages plastered on. Most of the Japanese console games I've played this gen don't do that, and many of them actually have really stylish loading screens. Examples include Bayonetta, Shadows of the Damned, Catherine, 3D Dot Game Heroes, etc.
This. Right here. This is how older console games used to do things. You could typically gleam instruction from talking to characters, reading signs, or reading a codex. If you wanted that information, you could instantly get it, but if you preferred to figure things out yourself, you could just ignore the tips.
I've actually started turning off and skipping tutorials in modern games that let me, but so many games these days are unintuitive to the point where you have to sit through the tutorials and tips to have any clue how to play them. That's the worst part.
I'd like to see the faces of young Gears fans playing the first village scenario in RE4.
Muffdraul
Member
One thing that really chaps my hind is when a game puts you in an environment where clearly you *could* fall off the edge of some structure if you're not careful, but they put an invisible wall there so you can't fall no matter what. Fuck that. Let me fall if I suck. If you're scared to penalize the player for it, fine, but at least let them fall.
kingkaiser
Member
Where are my chest-high walls?!
WTF? melee is not insta-win?
I can not shoot while i run? What is that shit?
*decapitated by chainsaw man*
This game is archaic and shit! *rage quit*
Raitosaito
Member
Portal 1. 2 not so much. Great game, but hand holdy.
Unfortunately I was exactly the same. I was able to struggle through a bit further in DMC 3 (the worm boss?)
Fucking how do I do what I'm supposed to?
I love how in L4D (the first one) the opening movie is basically a tutorial. Everything you need to know about game's mechanics is told to you through that one sequence:
- it introduces you to the main cast
- it introduces you to the Witch and how she reacts to light and noise (there's even a witch theme playing in the background)
- it shows you the wave mechanics and that sometimes, if you're careless, a loud noise might attract zombies' attention (a huge wave of zombies comes after you)
- every type of the main infected appears in the intro along with their basic attacks: witch, smoker, hunter, tank
- it shows you how a pipe bomb works
- it shows you all types of basic weapons and attacks you can do (machine gun, gun, dual pistols, shotgun and pushing enemies away)
- it shows you that sometimes you will have to help your teammates to pull over
The moment you start playing the game, if you didn't skip the opening, you already know basic mechanics.
I would say most older PC games, say from the 90s and early 2000s, fit this well.
More recently Dark Souls. That game doesn't tell you anything man. I'm trying not to use a guide but for certain things like weapon progression and other non-walkthrough stuff I pretty much have to otherwise I'd never know about it.
More recently Dark Souls. That game doesn't tell you anything man. I'm trying not to use a guide but for certain things like weapon progression and other non-walkthrough stuff I pretty much have to otherwise I'd never know about it.
I love how in RE4 Hunnigan sends you playing manual only after you reach the village; by the time you enter the village you already had to fight with several Ganados, pick up ammo, reload your weapon etc. :lol
Or... Banjo fans wanted Banjo Threeie?
N&B wasn't a bad game, but it definitely wasn't the game the fans wanted after 8 years of waiting for a new console Banjo game.
Also, BK/BT are far from "mindless". There is a ton of creativity and freedom in collecting jiggies and the other items.
Uhm, you do know that Braid is a game with time-based puzzles first and foremost, and not a simple 2D platformer, right? And that each world changes mechanics a little bit? So no, the basic concept is not known to the player.
H_Prestige
Banned
Dark Souls. Only game I played this gen that doesn't treat the player like a complete idiot. I feel like it's a game designed for real grown men.
abstract alien
Member
Closure seems to do a pretty good job as well in this regard.
People hated it because it wasn't a true BanjoKazooie game...
Vulcano's assistant
Banned
Zelda games, once you are inside a dungeon.
DA2 comes to mind.
kingkaiser
Member
Seems like trying not to suck up to the "we want more of the same" crowd is a real bad idea nowadays.
bonesmccoy
Banned
I can list a few, but for the sake of brevity I'll just take 2 examples from 2 separate genres that have lately become very good (maybe too good) at this kind of thing.
Europa Universalis (Rome/3): If the tutorial works, it only gives you the know-how to start a game. The sophisticated strategies are almost completely all yours to develop and no scenario/country offers a single guaranteed path to success.
Evochron Mercenary/X3: The reason for the "maybe too good" statement above.
Europa Universalis (Rome/3): If the tutorial works, it only gives you the know-how to start a game. The sophisticated strategies are almost completely all yours to develop and no scenario/country offers a single guaranteed path to success.
Evochron Mercenary/X3: The reason for the "maybe too good" statement above.
TheyTookOurJobs
Member
Silent Hill 2
QueenOfThorns
Member
People wanted a proper sequel. That doesn't mean it has to be exactly the same as the first two games, but it does mean it has to be consistent with the rest of the series. (Exploring, controlling banjo and kazooie and using their moves to do some of that exploration stuff, a little platforming, etc)
What we got was Nintendo not making Mario galaxy and instead saying Mario Kart is the future of the entire series.
Anyway! Demon's/Dark souls is the obvious answer. Valve also does a great job.
SatelliteOfLove
Member
Demon's Souls is the poster boy for this, but I feel alot of its effect was muted due to its 4-years-into-generation debut. The frustration level of many console gamers had been tempered to expect to understand everything, do nothing unless prompted or guided, and not to relish learning and self-betterment itself. So then you have DeS treated like some dark goatee-wearing Anti-Modern Game Design Rebel threatening a glorious new status quo of good feelings and rainbows or whatever.
The worst? Take your pick of any game this generation; odds are good you'll land on a game whos dev team failed utterly at the art of TEACHING a CONCEPT and instead deevolve into straight out telling the player what to do, when to do it, and even why. The worst of the worst don't even deem fit to let you do something unless you've sat thru a tutorial bashing it into your feeble skull before letting you even use it.
Speaking of that, it's funny how on one hand the article in question touts treating the players MIND with respect, but also the player's TIME. If a game is that good, especially long runners like MMOs and Fighters, guess what? You're getting more of your money's worth! You ain't gotta buy so many games!
Besides, if a person is sitting down to play a video game and they don't feel it "respects their time", they hopefully have had their affairs in order beforehand anyways and would probably end up watching TV or the net (at least I do this). They talk as THAT GAME took valuable waking hours away from their Noble Prize-winning cancer research or some shit. I'm just uncomfortable with this calculation, as it comes off from hearing it so much like someone off-handedly trying to spin blame for the game either not being in their wheelwell or them not putting forth any effort to like it completely on the devs themselves rather than it being a bad match.
He's an intellectual fraud. $10 words and alot of bravado is a solid stand-in for intellegentsia leadership in this often sophomoric industry. Remember, kids, nice guys finish last in the hoi polloi indie scene!
Besides for ever Fi, there's 10 ego-coddling, talk-down, kindergartner's field trip to a war zone AAA single player mode doing just as much idiocy. Then again, those ain't in direct competition for Indie dollars so...
Silver_DNA
Member
Don't forget the reminder to reload which is an on-screen prompt of the button you need to push.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
I guess compared to RE5 and GeoW, but still, it's pretty handholding early on as well as QTE abundance. I like ammo management from that game though.
While I'll say that the logical/correct arguments tend to be the obvious ones especially after reading the character's info in the screen, it is a step up from Bioware's dialog tree.
Façade seems to treat the player as if they are something a bit more than bag of flesh tapping a button.
The Xtortionist
Member
The village in RE4 is so brilliant. Without any kind of tutorial, that single encounter will harden the player and prepare them for the rest of the game. It's not easy, but you will absolutely come out of it a better player than you were going in. My single favorite encounter in all of gaming.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
I think I should expand on my favorite example, Valkyrie Profile 2: Silmeria.
The only tutorial part of the game is optional - simply saying how attacks work. The game then just leave you to your devices. When a new mechanic pops up, like skills from equipment or sealstones, they just give a textbox. It really shows that they want the player to experiment on the games, and really, the players who mastered the game create really fun battles and attacks that net wondrous rewards.
The only tutorial part of the game is optional - simply saying how attacks work. The game then just leave you to your devices. When a new mechanic pops up, like skills from equipment or sealstones, they just give a textbox. It really shows that they want the player to experiment on the games, and really, the players who mastered the game create really fun battles and attacks that net wondrous rewards.
Heartily agree with the Shadow of the Colossus and Witcher callouts, but I'll add one that I would rank above SotC in this department:
Ico tells you nothing. No "move L Stick to rock cell," no "make your way up to the cage," no "use the stick to attack the shadows," no "press X to jump," no nothin'. You have to discover every single thing Ico can do all by experimentation and through cues in the level design, and it works flawlessly from start to finish. The game is an absolute triumph of design.
Yep. Just figuring out how to grab yorda out of the first pit she gets dragged into is a great moment. It immediately tells you the core mechanic of the entire game through an action. She's getting dragged off and you know that nobody's going to save her but you, so fucking get to it!
The game tells you how to save by having yorda go sit on a couch, how to climb simply by dangling chains in your face. No tutorial ever, and it's brilliant.
I would generally much prefer be lost for 20 seconds then condescended to for 3 minutes.
faceless007
Member
Bomber Bob
Banned
Portal
ThankeeSai
Member
Most recently for me, Witcher 2.
I love the lack of hand holding, the fact that you actually have to use your map in certain situations and can't just place markers etc.
Fantastic game and probably my favourite of this year so far.
I love the lack of hand holding, the fact that you actually have to use your map in certain situations and can't just place markers etc.
Fantastic game and probably my favourite of this year so far.