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[staticneuron]

I actually toyed with the idea of throwing this in the OP, when I was writing it earlier. It's a good video.

Boiling it down. I think it's similar to how films should show, rather than tell. There's an art to creating a game that shows you how to play, rather than just beating you over the idea with instructions.

Also. Just to cover myself again. Despite using Blow's interview as a jumping off point. I don't agree with his singling out of Japanese games, being the worst culprits today. There's plenty of good and bad examples, from all countries.

It's a good video, I love the enthusiasm and he is absolutely right about examples how games can show instead of spell it out.

Problem is, the game developers are not doing this for use gamers. They also didn't wake up one day and decide that everyone is dumb. Chances are they did play testing.....
and found out that some people are seriously dumb.

It always makes me wonder about gamers and their self esteem when they play a new game and it is feeding instructions, for them to assume it is meant for them. Even worse if you are playing a sequel in a popular franchise.

What the instructions in these games indicate are simply people are really dumb and long time gamers are insecure.

 

[EGM1966]

A fair few thank goodness. But as with Hollywood summer movies for a lot of big titles the entry bar is going to be set low - i.e. the challenge level is going to be set to what is percieved will attract the largest audience and won't alienate the largest audience.

What I never get in games though is how easy it would be, with a couple of settings, to cover your bases - a film has to stick to one level of accessability, a game doesn't. Just stuff like settings to turn on/off HUD direction markers, or ramp up/down puzzles would be easy to do.

System Shock (and I think Silent Hill 2 if I remember correctly) both had comabt and puzzle difficulty levels - how hard would that be do with more games really?

 

[aznpxdd]

A fair few thank goodness. But as with Hollywood summer movies for a lot of big titles the entry bar is going to be set low - i.e. the challenge level is going to be set to what is percieved will attract the largest audience and won't alienate the largest audience.

What I never get in games though is how easy it would be, with a couple of settings, to cover your bases - a film has to stick to one level of accessability, a game doesn't. Just stuff like settings to turn on/off HUD direction markers, or ramp up/down puzzles would be easy to do.

System Shock (and I think Silent Hill 2 if I remember correctly) both had comabt and puzzle difficulty levels - how hard would that be do with more games really?

How do you exactly ramp up a puzzle's difficulty?

 

[Night_Trekker]

While it might not be what the OP had in mind, I've been constantly impressed by Fragile Dreams so far. The game itself is fairly linear, but the story has an intelligence and a subtlety I really didn't expect (but very much wanted).

I've never played anything else like it: a post-apocalyptic game that is solemn and beautiful instead of grim and frightening. My only fear is that it will end soon.

How do you exactly ramp up a puzzle's difficulty?

Provide more complex versions of the puzzles found on lower difficulty settings or provide completely different, more difficult puzzles on the higher settings. Silent Hill 3 is a great example of how to do this well. The hard mode puzzles are some of the toughest I've ever seen in a game.

But doing something like that requires a lot more effort on the developer's part, so I don't expect to see it in many games.

 

[faridmon]

Shin Megami Games.
Recently: 4 Warriiors of Light never becomes easier throughout the game.

 

[Mr_Zombie]

System Shock (and I think Silent Hill 2 if I remember correctly) both had comabt and puzzle difficulty levels - how hard would that be do with more games really?

No, Silent Hill 2 doesn't have puzzle difficulty levels, Silent Hill 3 does. And it is glorious.

How do you exactly ramp up a puzzle's difficulty?

In Silent Hill 3 there's a puzzle, where you have to line up books to read a code written on their spines. On the easiest level of difficulty, IIRC, you just have to put a missing book in its place. On a default one, you have to align books so that the code is readable. On the hardest one, the game requires you to know Shakespeare's dramas :lol.

Don't forget the reminder to reload which is an on-screen prompt of the button you need to push.

To be honest, RE4 itself was dumbed down when compared to previous RE games. In RE1-CV you didn't need an on-screen prompt that you can open a door or pick up an item by pressing an action button. Or that you have to shake left stick to escape the enemy that holds you. It was obvious.

And both RE2 and RE3 threw you just in middle of the action. There was no time for checking the buttons or explanation what does what; the moment you gained control over your character you were immediately surrounded by zombies. Few years ago I showed RE2 to few young guys. I can't even say how many times they died before even reaching Kendo's shop :lol.

 

[mclem]

Nobody remembers playing fucking Hacker for the first time?

Shit where's the old dude Gaming board?

That robot identification sequence. Bleurgh.

(That said, that *did* get tedious after a few repetitions. How do you balance that out?)

 

[Night_Trekker]

No, Silent Hill 2 doesn't have puzzle difficulty levels, Silent Hill 3 does. And it is glorious.

Someone (disappeared, maybe) corrected me on this a few weeks ago: Silent Hill 2 actually does have some different puzzles on the hardest difficulty level. But only Silent Hill 3 allows you to individually choose action difficulty and puzzle difficulty.

 

[Dabanton]

Is that an actual question?

Yep Bulletstorm for what looks like a 'normal' FPS game requires a lot of thought into how to play it correctly and satisfactorily. A marked diffrence for the usual FPS game

I remember a lot of Gaf posters who got confused and then mad because they were trying to play it as a run of the mill FPS game and not actually playing the game as it was meant to be played. ie at speed with imaginative massive combos in mind. As for the story. The game was more than self aware and in fact transcended it's genre roots with a straightforward story that for an FPS game actually made sense and was actually funny.

And the prudes put off by the swearing can go play with some dicktits.

 

[Gui_PT]

Yep Bulletstorm for what looks like a 'normal' FPS game requires a lot of thought into how to play it correctly and satisfactorily. A marked diffrence for the usual FPS game

Making combos is not something that makes you think.

It's the simplest game I've ever seen. Shoot, kick, make dick and tit jokes and that's it.

Edit: Removed my stupid joke that would not contribute towards the discussion

 

[Riposte]

Façade seems to treat the player as if they are something a bit more than bag of flesh tapping a button.

Hahaha!

You got me for a second there...

R u a comedian?

Making combos is not something that makes you think.

It's the simplest game I've ever seen. Shoot, kick, make dick and tit jokes and that's it.

Are you speaking in general? Do people do combos with their heart and not their brain?

 

[codecow]

Problem is, the game developers are not doing this for use gamers. They also didn't wake up one day and decide that everyone is dumb. Chances are they did play testing.....
and found out that some people are seriously dumb.

You're right, we do play test our stuff but I never blame the player when they don't understand something, my first reaction is to blame the game and/or level design. The main problem there is that it is way cheaper to add some hint boxes to get a player moving again than to fix a broken design.

 

[Gui_PT]

Are you speaking in general? Do people do combos with their heart and not their brain?

... What?

 

[codecow]

One game with puzzle difficulty that I remember from recent days is Dragon Age. On the PC version of the game there is a particular puzzle (bridge puzzle) where I had to get out a piece of paper and work out how to solve it.

My wife was playing the game on PS3, so when she got past that part I asked her if she had any trouble solving the puzzle. She said, "What puzzle?" So I went and looked it up, and sure enough they basically took it out for the console versions.

 

[Hamplin]

I think the guy in the video is correct, but also, many players _are_ in fact really afraid of games that don't hold their hand throughout. Developers have really spoiled us so fiercly with not having to use our brains that some don't like the feeling of having to use it.

 

[Hellcrow]

Yep. Just figuring out how to grab yorda out of the first pit she gets dragged into is a great moment. It immediately tells you the core mechanic of the entire game through an action. She's getting dragged off and you know that nobody's going to save her but you, so fucking get to it!

The game tells you how to save by having yorda go sit on a couch, how to climb simply by dangling chains in your face. No tutorial ever, and it's brilliant.

I would generally much prefer be lost for 20 seconds then condescended to for 3 minutes.

I'm currently playing ICO for the first time ever, and the only thing that annoyed me was swinging in chains. I had to learn that from manual.

Also, I didn't realize I had to handhold yorda through the first door, so I lost her at once, and didn't find here again after shadows spawned and kidnapped her. I feel stupid.

However, I like that Yorda points to hints if I get stuck.

 

[Disgaeamad]

I'd say the pre-DS 2D Zelda games were always a good example of this, especially Oracle of Seasons and Ages. You had some simple pointers here and there, but it was always up to you to figure out how you should be travelling to your next destination and how you'd overcome the obstacles that prevented you from getting there with the items at hand and smart thinking. The most help you had in dungeons were those owl statues you could throw mystery seeds onto for a slight hint, but other than that you had to think back to previous experiences within the game and work out how best to apply them, on top of the inclusion of a new dungeon item, in order to solve puzzles.

Ys games are also a pretty solid example. You get some basic explanations at the start on how to work the basic controls and the like, and then that's you for the entire game. Everything's up to you to in terms of applying your new skills to make sure you don't get brutalised by all the monsters roaming about and that you don't fuck up on those insane bosses.

 

[Boss Man]

I know it's one of those things that's repeated everywhere, but yeah Demon's Souls is a fantastic recent example of this. It was the first game I played in a long time where I felt a sense of accomplishment for having found my way through a level.

The sad thing is, the game is not really that hard. It worries me how much people talk about the difficulty, because the only real difficulty comes from the fact that it doesn't hold your hand. For instance, once you beat a level, it becomes easier and easier to blow back through it- even if the difficulty has been increased.

 

[The Boat]

I love Skyward Sword... but you are right.

You enter for the first time a room: "Look master, those big and different patterns on the wall wich says 'Put an arrow here' seem to react to pointy things, just like the arrows you just obtained. Don't forget to chose your bow from your inventory and press A..."

Skyward Sword is highly contrasting in this regard although people don't notice because hyperbole is cool. There is too much hand holding outside of dungeons and it's a shame there wasn't an option to tone it down, but once you're inside you are completly left to your own devices and need to figure out stuff on your own save rare occasions.
Hand holding, tutorials and so on are a necessity if you want your game to reach more people than just us geeks, although some developers manage to tackle this issue in more elegant manners.

 

[Htown]

Uhm, you do know that Braid is a game with time-based puzzles first and foremost, and not a simple 2D platformer, right? And that each world changes mechanics a little bit? So no, the basic concept is not known to the player.

So it's Mario plus Prince of Persia. Big whoop.

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

How do you exactly ramp up a puzzle's difficulty?

Skyward Sword is highly contrasting in this regard although people don't notice because hyperbole is cool. There is too much hand holding outside of dungeons and it's a shame there wasn't an option to tone it down, but once you're inside you are completly left to your own devices and need to figure out stuff on your own save rare occasions.
Hand holding, tutorials and so on are a necessity if you want your game to reach more people than just us geeks, although some developers manage to tackle this issue in more elegant manners.

This and Bastion needed this as an Experts Mode full stop.

Also, tutorials are developers doing it in an elegant manner (teaching to fish), handholding is them doing it in an inelegant manner (give them a fish).

 

[Ventilaator]

So it's Mario plus Prince of Persia. Big whoop.

I hope for the sake of my blood pressure that this is sarcasm.

 

[Mr_Zombie]

So it's Mario plus Prince of Persia. Big whoop.

So you really haven't played the game. Ok.

 

[Tuck]

Skyward Sword.

Joke post? Joke post.

 

[cr_blah_blah]

So it's Mario plus Prince of Persia. Big whoop.

It's amazing how incorrect this is.

 

[VeryGooster]

NES Legend of Zelda. No handholding, good times.

Zelda II also, even though it isn't as open as The Legend of Zelda. You're basically figuring out the overhead map, realizing enemies will come after you if you step off the main roads, and then have to decide where the hell to go from there. Townsfolk drop messages like "There are boots in that palace north of here," and once you reach that palace, there's no map or any direction unless there's a locked door in place.

Even the combat in later areas becomes less about hoping to make a hit and becomes actual fucking swordfighting.

 

[kruis]

I HATED this in the Uncharted games. I solve extensive puzzles that haven't been solved in generations and climb the most imposible structures. And who waits for me once I reach my destination? Hundreds of faceless goons that I have to shoot. I doesn't insult my intelligence but devalues everything I have "accomplished" in the last hour.

There we go again: gamers hating games for being a game...

What's next? Grumbles about how conveniently everything you need to solve is puzzle is supplied by the game? How gaming world aren't realistic because of invisible barriers? That it's impossible to be shot dozens, if not hundreds of times and recover almost instantly if you just wait long enough?

Those things aren't insults to the collected intelligence of all gamers, it's what makes games games and not reality.

 

[faceless007]

No, Silent Hill 2 doesn't have puzzle difficulty levels, Silent Hill 3 does. And it is glorious.

Someone (disappeared, maybe) corrected me on this a few weeks ago: Silent Hill 2 actually does have some different puzzles on the hardest difficulty level. But only Silent Hill 3 allows you to individually choose action difficulty and puzzle difficulty.

Not true.

 

[AcceptableGhost]

I HATED this in the Uncharted games. I solve extensive puzzles that haven't been solved in generations and climb the most imposible structures. And who waits for me once I reach my destination? Hundreds of faceless goons that I have to shoot. I doesn't insult my intelligence but devalues everything I have "accomplished" in the last hour.

What is funny is that the only thing in Uncharted 1 and 2 that respects player intelligence is the harder shootouts on the Crushing difficulty. The platforming is fucking trivial and effectively automated. The puzzles are the typical bullshit affair where the game thinks the player is so fucking dumb that they are all designed around the game basically telling you what to do next. They are not really puzzles when you know the solution the second you walk into the room and you are just going through the motions. The "puzzles" are basically code term for "make replays of this game more boring than they have to be".

 

[PantherAttacks]

I can't stand games that treat you like a moron. A game has to be very good in other areas for me to endure that kind of thing. I actually ragequit Sonic Generations because of excessive tutorial popups, the game is so simple and it repeatedly tells you obvious things.

 

[Night_Trekker]

Not true.

Oh, I see :|

I should really play SH2 again. Or stop trying to talk about it. Heh.

 

[Mr_Zombie]

Not true.

Wow, I haven't played SH2 in such a long time that I completely forgot about this. :O

 

[civilstrife]

Remove all dialogue from Mario and Zelda games.

Entirely.

 

[Costcosaurus]

Doesn't pretty much every puzzle game ever made require the intelligence of the player?

 

[thetrin]

It's funny that Japanese games used to be so good about this back in the day, but now they're the ones that hold ones hand the most. Look at NES and SNES games. No stupid tutorials there unless it was really needed. It was assumed that you knew how to play a game back then and therefore it didn't feel the need to explain every little detail to you. You could look at a problem in a game and come up with the solution yourself without having to have gone through a tutorial explaining that particular problem.

Though sometimes this backfired a bit, where the game expected you to know things that were not logical even in the context of the game. Especially during the 8-bit era. CV II: Simon's Quest comes to mind as a great example of that.

What games are you actually talking about? Outside of Skyward Sword and Okami, what is this magical group of games holding your hand?

 

[hirokazu]

What he describes is exactly what made me come pretty close to saying "fuuuuuuck this shiiiit" with Skyward Sword. Great game, but fuck, some retards at Nintendo need to be fired. Even if it is Miyamoto. He keeps spewing this crap about making games accessible to casuals and gamers alike, which is a good idea on paper, but not when the end result is a frustrating product that slaps your face if you're not a bumbling casual.