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[Tacitus_]

Well the wheels are already in motion. Media play or not Israel is going to be dragged kicking and screaming to at least a marginally better foreign policy...

I'm amazed that you can maintain such optimism after these events. Maybe I'm just too cynical, who knows?

 

[Ember128]

Right, it's not just about the 9 people they murdered and got away with, it's about the continued humanitarian crisis they'll continue to be able to maintain.

Yes and no. They did "get away" with it.

But they still have to deal with the consequences, and while the media cycles very, very fast, the UN does not, and neither does the Foreign Policy of Nations.

Turkey is not going to snap back to talking about what a great ally they are, NATO is going to have to make long term forecasts for the shifts that have/are happening, and Iran/Saudi Arabia/Egypt/Greece/Members of the EU have to shift their stance a little as well.

The aftershocks, so to speak, before another earthquake like this hits are going to be reverberating for months.

 

[Tacitus_]

Yes and no. They did "get away" with it.

But they still have to deal with the consequences, and while the media cycles very, very fast, the UN does not, and neither does the Foreign Policy of Nations.

Turkey is not going to snap back to talking about what a great ally they are, NATO is going to have to make long term forecasts for the shifts that have/are happening, and Iran/Saudi Arabia/Egypt/Greece/Members of the EU have to shift their stance a little as well.

The aftershocks, so to speak, before another earthquake like this hits are going to be reverberating for months.

Both UN and NATO will have their Israeli stances neutered by the US if the past is of any indication.

 

[Dude Abides]

GO IDF!!

I think its awesome that the pro-palestine movement thought that this would be it for Israel and that they would be forced to change policy...but at the end of the day IDF and Israel stands victorious.

And no im not being sarcastic im deadly serious...GO IDF!!

Nobody actually thought this incident would lead to Israel changing its thuggish ways. You'll be able to spank it to pictures of dead Arabs for years to come.

 

[Ember128]

Both UN and NATO will have their Israeli stances neutered by the US if the past is of any indication.

Neutered is indeed indicative of the sense of what will happen, but the degree to which is much lesser.

Most other reasonable NATO Countries do not favour, or give a free pass to Israel for this situation. Turkey is a member of NATO, and has some ties with the EU. They are a fairly important, and relatively speaking, moderate country in the region.

Some of the best progress in Foreign Policy and opinions of the US have happened in the last couple years, before that, the US was seen as one of the biggest threats to world peace.

The US cannot in any way simply give a pass to Israel for what happened, and cannot stop other Countries through something like Veto Power. That would be Foreign Policy wrist slitting, being that America would be siding with what most of the world perceives as a slaughter.

Likewise, in the event of a military conflict, the US cannot simply back Israel as a major military ally would, unless they want to commit foreign policy suicide, seeing as they would be going against a NATO Country, and fucking themselves over politically and the opinon of many, many countries.

Therefore, progress will likely be made through some measurable consensus about Israel making some kind of concession regarding something while the conflict is still in the stages of being escalated, where things have not reached a point of not being very easy to reverse from. They blockade will likely be further reduced, although eliminating it is unlikely. Further pressure regarding settlements and military action in occupied territories, the possibilities of actual war crimes tribunals, are slim, but much more likely than non-existent. In any case, there will have be be some, even if a limited measure of accountability for the incident or at least set in place for future actions.

America, does not want things to escalate to the level of war/armed conflict between Israel and other Nations. Most reasonable nations in NATO or The EU don't want to see that either. Therefore, they are going to engage in putting such measures in place before such a conflict takes place, rather than during.

The only things that can really fuck up things faster is Israel engaging in more violent and stubborn (whether justified or not) actions, because that will only make things worse. That is one thing that can't really be measured, that they see that no matter how they try to arrange things to defend Israel, the thing that will defend them the most is Detente'.

 

[RiskyChris]

I'm amazed that you can maintain such optimism after these events. Maybe I'm just too cynical, who knows?

The flotillas are not going to stop. I have good hope the peace march will move forward, but I really don't expect much change in American perception of Israel.

 

[mAcOdIn]

I think the animosity between the countries may add a few more levels of complexity to it. Also, right now not everyone is Iran's friend, if they get the shit kicked out of them - how many big contenders in the international community are going to care? If it was a close ally to the west (like Greece or something) that set sail to Gaza, and was attacked by Israel - I have a feeling it would cause a much bigger stir than if Iran got attacked. Heck if Israel said that the Iranian ships were filled to the brim with A-bombs and Burqa wearing terrorists, regardless of the authenticity of it, too many people would nod their heads in agreement. You couldn't pull that off with a lot of other countries.

I wanted to expand on this.

For one, I don't think that is really true. I think, hope, that there's actually a rather wide difference in what countries truly feel about Iran versus the line everyone takes with Iran essentially at our(the US) behalf. Basically, I feel that modern Western European countries are so comfortable with their relative regional peace and the status quo that if the US says that Iran's a bad guy they'll go along with it just because they don't really want to rock the boat, but I don't think most nations actually believe half the shit they say about Iran. I pretty much think they're cowards.

Second, I think the Western world would do much more to bring Israel in line against a nation like Iran than they would Greece, to use your example. If Greece was getting up in arms over Israel I think the Western nations would feel they have a much better shot at restraining Greece than they do Israel, hence I don't think much good would actually come of a Western friendly nation being at odds with Israel. Iran, on the other hand, isn't really controllable by us, between the two countries we have much more pull over Israel than Iran, if it came down to a showdown between those two, if we were going to stop it, I think there's a decent chance we'd lean on Israel.

That's all assuming that someone's going to get talked down. There's the possibility that things escalate, I obviously don't like that but it may be necessary for that to happen for this to ever be resolved.

I guess it comes down to what a Palestinian is worth, to put it harshly. Almost everyone says they have all these rights, but at the end of the day, if no one will fight for them how much do we really support them? It's a little two faced in my opinion to oppose any scenario that could explode into a war over the issue because that essentially says that the issue only matters if it can be resolved peacefully, and if not, well fuck the Palestinians, that's what that says to me.

 

[tahrikmili]

Not one fuckign mention of the new video on international media boggles my mind.

Faith in humanity -1000

 

[CrushDance]

"We're unsure", "We're unsure" *Damn video*...*crickets*

 

[Kinitari]

Uhh, I guess I should google this first but - during my lunch today at work I saw something CP24 (local news station) a quick written tidbit about increasing pressure on Israel dealing with Gaza - and how Israel has agreed to an international investigation - on the condition that they choose what countries the judges come from? I think 2 of the judge requests were for Canadians. I should look more into it, but interesting if true.

Israel setting up flotilla probe with 2 foreigners

JERUSALEM — Israel has proposed an inquiry commission into its bloody attack on a Gaza-bound flotilla two weeks ago, to be headed by a retired Israeli judge and to include two high-ranking foreign observers.

A government statement said the “independent public commission” proposal would be brought before Israel’s Cabinet on Monday for approval.

Chairing the commission would be Yaakov Turkel, a retired Israeli Supreme Court justice, the statement said. The two foreign observers would be Lord William David Trimble of Ireland, a Nobel Peace Prize laureate, and retired Brig. Gen. Ken Watkin, the former chief military prosecutor in Canada.

Israel has come under withering criticism for its May 30 raid on the flotilla, in which nine pro-Palestinian activists were killed.

THIS IS A BREAKING NEWS UPDATE. Check back soon for further information. AP’s earlier story is below.

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip (AP) — The Arab world’s top diplomat declared support Sunday for the people of blockaded Gaza in his first visit to the Palestinian territory since Hamas violently seized control of it three years ago.

The visit was latest sign that Israel’s deadly raid on a flotilla trying to break the blockade of Gaza has eased the diplomatic isolation of the Islamic militant group.

Israel, meanwhile, appeared to grow more isolated in the fallout over the May 31 raid as Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak abruptly canceled plans Sunday to visit Paris.

Barak’s office said he canceled his trip while Israel forms a committee to investigate the raid. The statement denied that the decision was connected to attempts by pro-Palestinian groups to seek his arrest.

Israeli defense officials said Barak was concerned about the unwanted attention his visit would attract. In particular, they pointed to the heavy media attention and difficult questions he would face as well as the heightened security arrangements the visit would require. The officials spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to discuss the matter with the media.

Activists have previously tried unsuccessfully to arrest Barak and other Israeli officials in Europe under the principle of universal jurisdiction.

In another development, several Turkish educators and officials pulled out of an international Holocaust education conference in Israel to protest the raid, organizers said. The raid, which resulted in the deaths of nine Turkish activists, has severely strained ties between former regional and military allies Turkey and Israel.

Arab League chief Amr Moussa’s visit to Gaza is part of an international push to end the three-year-old blockade that gained momentum after the naval raid.

“The siege must be lifted,” Moussa told reporters. “All the world is now standing with the people of Palestine and the people of Gaza.”

It was a significant declaration because many Arab countries have held the Iranian-backed Hamas at arms length, and Egypt, one of the Arab League’s most important members, has been Israel’s partner in keeping Gaza largely sealed.

Widespread outrage in the Arab and Muslim world over the raid has prompted Arab leaders to join the growing international demands for opening Gaza’s borders. In a first step, Egypt has eased the very limited travel at its Rafah crossing with Gaza.

Israel says the blockade is necessary to stop weapons reaching Hamas, but critics say it has failed to dent support for the Islamic militants and has left 1.5 million Gazans more deeply mired in poverty.

Moussa was the first senior Arab official to visit Gaza since the territory came under the control of Hamas, which much of the West considers a terrorist organization.

The head of the 22-member Arab League met Sunday with the top Hamas leader in Gaza, Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh, in a significant diplomatic boost for Hamas. The meeting took place in Haniyeh’s home in Gaza’s Shati refugee camp, and the men later walked around the neighborhood for 10 minutes.

“The acrimony between Gaza and the Arab nation ended today and forever,” said Bassem Naim, a Hamas Cabinet minister who greeted Moussa.

Moussa said Gaza reconstruction projects are ready, but there must be a “national unity approach” for them to be implemented, a reference to the split between Hamas in Gaza and Western-backed Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas in the West Bank.

As part of the border blockade, Israel restricts imports to Gaza, only permitting a few dozen types of foods and medicines, while barring raw materials, including construction supplies. Virtually all exports are banned.

As a result, more than 70 percent of Gaza’s 3,900 factories and workshops stand idle or operate at minimal capacity, and tens of thousands have lost their jobs. U.N. officials say 80 percent of Gazans now receive some type of aid.

In Jerusalem, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu reiterated to his Cabinet Sunday that Israel must maintain the blockade to prevent weapons and goods that could be used for military purposes from reaching Hamas. The Islamic group has fired thousands of rockets at Israel.

“The principle guiding our policy is clear — to prevent the entry of war materiel from entering Gaza and to allow the entry of humanitarian aid and non-contraband goods into the Gaza Strip,” Netanyahu said.

President Barack Obama said last week that the blockade in its current form is unsustainable.

Netanyahu is under heavy international pressure to launch an independent investigation into the flotilla raid. Officials say Israel has been working with the U.S. to form a committee with some international representation to blunt the worldwide criticism.

Washington’s ambassador to the U.N., Susan Rice, told Fox News on Sunday that while the United States believes Israel can conduct a “credible and impartial” investigation, an “international component” would “buttress its credibility in the eyes of the international community.”

Here is an article I found, had trouble linking to it on the work comp, so I just copied the whole damn thing =p.

 

[crazy monkey]

Uhh, I guess I should google this first but - during my lunch today at work I saw something CP24 (local news station) a quick written tidbit about increasing pressure on Israel dealing with Gaza - and how Israel has agreed to an international investigation - on the condition that they choose what countries the judges come from? I think 2 of the judge requests were for Canadians. I should look more into it, but interesting if true.




Here is an article I found, had trouble linking to it on the work comp, so I just copied the whole damn thing =p.

canadian goverment right now is israel's bitch it will bend over backwards to support anything they do

 

[Kinitari]

canadian goverment right now is israel's bitch it will bend over backwards to support anything they do

I think that is a bit of a stretch. The current PM probably is, as he seems to like to mirror the US when it comes to foriegn policy, but I don't think the general public, or even most politicians feel the same. I am not saying we wont get some Israel dick riders, but I am saying that there is a chance we wont.

 

[empty vessel]

And to complete their act of piracy:

Gaza Convoy Activists Claim Israeli Soldiers Using Debit Cards Stolen in Raid
by Haroon Siddique

Israeli troops have been accused of stealing from activists arrested in the assault on the Gaza flotilla after confiscated debit cards belonging to activists were subsequently used.

In their raid of 31 May, the Israeli army stormed the boats on the flotilla and, as well as money and goods destined for the Palestinian relief effort in Gaza, the bulk of which have yet to be returned, took away most of the personal possessions of the activists when taking them into custody.

Individual soldiers appear to have used confiscated debit cards to buy items such as iPod accessories, while mobile phones seized from activists have also been used for calls.

Ebrahim Musaji, 23, of Gloucester, has a bank statement showing his debit card was used in an Israeli vending machine for a purchase costing him 82p on 9 June.

It was then used on a Dutch website, www.thisipod.com, twice on 10 June: once for amounts equivalent to £42.42 and then for £37.83. And a Californian activist, Kathy Sheetz, has alleged that she has been charged more than $1,000 in transactions from vending machines in Israel since 6 June.

Musaji and Sheetz were on board two separate boats - one the Mavi Marmara, on which nine Turkish activists were killed, the other on the Challenger 1. Both activists only entered Israel when arrested, and were in custody for their entire time on Israeli soil.

"They've obviously taken my card and used it," Musaji told the Guardian.

"When they take things like people's videos and debit cards and use them, and their mobile phones, it becomes a bit of a joke. ...

Musaji cancelled his card on 7 June, the day after he returned to Britain, where he is a support worker for adults with learning difficulties. His bank has agreed to treat the transactions as fraudulent and he will not be charged for them. His mobile phone was also used for two short calls in Israel after it had been confiscated.

Another American activist, David Schermerhorn, 80, from Washington state, claims his iPhone was used, while Manolo Luppichini, an Italian journalist, said his card was debited with the equivalent of €54 after it was confiscated.

Activists say Israel still has possession of at least £1m of goods and cash, comprising aid and personal possessions, including laptops and cameras.

Some passports, three of them belonging to British citizens, have still not been returned. On Thursday, delegations in 12 countries, including the UK, held meetings with their respective governments to exert pressure on Israeli to return the seized property. ...​

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/18/gaza-convoy-activists-debit-card-fraud

 

[mAcOdIn]

And to complete their act of piracy:

Gaza Convoy Activists Claim Israeli Soldiers Using Debit Cards Stolen in Raid
by Haroon Siddique

Israeli troops have been accused of stealing from activists arrested in the assault on the Gaza flotilla after confiscated debit cards belonging to activists were subsequently used.

In their raid of 31 May, the Israeli army stormed the boats on the flotilla and, as well as money and goods destined for the Palestinian relief effort in Gaza, the bulk of which have yet to be returned, took away most of the personal possessions of the activists when taking them into custody.

Individual soldiers appear to have used confiscated debit cards to buy items such as iPod accessories, while mobile phones seized from activists have also been used for calls.

Ebrahim Musaji, 23, of Gloucester, has a bank statement showing his debit card was used in an Israeli vending machine for a purchase costing him 82p on 9 June.

It was then used on a Dutch website, www.thisipod.com, twice on 10 June: once for amounts equivalent to £42.42 and then for £37.83. And a Californian activist, Kathy Sheetz, has alleged that she has been charged more than $1,000 in transactions from vending machines in Israel since 6 June.

Musaji and Sheetz were on board two separate boats - one the Mavi Marmara, on which nine Turkish activists were killed, the other on the Challenger 1. Both activists only entered Israel when arrested, and were in custody for their entire time on Israeli soil.

"They've obviously taken my card and used it," Musaji told the Guardian.

"When they take things like people's videos and debit cards and use them, and their mobile phones, it becomes a bit of a joke. ...

Musaji cancelled his card on 7 June, the day after he returned to Britain, where he is a support worker for adults with learning difficulties. His bank has agreed to treat the transactions as fraudulent and he will not be charged for them. His mobile phone was also used for two short calls in Israel after it had been confiscated.

Another American activist, David Schermerhorn, 80, from Washington state, claims his iPhone was used, while Manolo Luppichini, an Italian journalist, said his card was debited with the equivalent of €54 after it was confiscated.

Activists say Israel still has possession of at least £1m of goods and cash, comprising aid and personal possessions, including laptops and cameras.

Some passports, three of them belonging to British citizens, have still not been returned. On Thursday, delegations in 12 countries, including the UK, held meetings with their respective governments to exert pressure on Israeli to return the seized property. ...​

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/18/gaza-convoy-activists-debit-card-fraud

Would be even better if they were using the money to buy bootleg movies, cd's and mp3's from China or Russia.

I'm actually rather shocked that people brought things like debit cards and laptops knowing they'd be stopped by Israel and that Israel still hasn't given them back. Idiocy on both accounts, oh well, one act is just naivety and the other is criminal so it's clear which is worse.

 

[theignoramus]

As long as Washington has their back, they know they can do what they please, with little restraint. It was the same with South Africa pre-ANC, they knew that Washington's voice and vote was the one that mattered most.

 

[Dead Man]

Fucking hell. I had not seen the new footage. Fucking saddened and angered by the apathy shown by the US in regards to this.

 

[Kuro Madoushi]

As long as Washington has their back, they know they can do what they please, with little restraint. It was the same with South Africa pre-ANC, they knew that Washington's voice and vote was the one that mattered most.

.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

I agree. But you tell that to Israel (or the White House)...


Edit: Entire recording released (over 1 hour of raw footage).

Watching the video ATM. Shit hits the fan around 0:35, with the IDF trying to board the ship with their riot guns firing (calling them "paintball guns" is extremely misleading).

Edit: They don't actually board the ship, they just fire on it and lob a few flash grenades. By the time the helicopter arrives there are splatters of blood and the activists are pissed.

gotta be honest here: I looked at this video expecting a smoking gun like everyone else. other than the paintball guns and flashbangs, I didn't see any "ZOMG" damning activity from the IDF.

also, that stuff they thought was blood on that ladder wasn't blood. we didn't get to see how anyone sustained their injuries (or more specifically, the circumstances surrounding them). obviously, we see injured people later on...but without seeing the exchanges that lead to the violence, I don't know that we learned more now than we knew before.

I watched from 0:35 on.

 

[nib95]

Great video on BBC's HardTalk with Kenneth O'Keefe, who took part in the aid fleet mission. Man is straight on point. Something needs to give, Israel's antics grow more and more disgusting day by day.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00sz5sj/HARDtalk_Kenneth_OKeefe_Gaza_flotilla_activist/

 

[nib95]

New tapes appear to be showing IDF soldiers beating an American citizen before ultimately executing him.

I'm also well behind on all this (classic Apathy syndrome which I am disappointed in myself for). Any links to all recent relevant news pieces and video's?

Someone earlier also mentioned something about the US's apathetic stance on this, is there a video of this as well? Or are we talking general terms as the US always does.

 

[Xun]

Great video on BBC's HardTalk with Kenneth O'Keefe, who took part in the aid fleet mission. Man is straight on point. Something needs to give, Israel's antics grow more and more disgusting day by day.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00sz5sj/HARDtalk_Kenneth_OKeefe_Gaza_flotilla_activist/

That woman irritates me.

 

[Instigator]

Great video on BBC's HardTalk with Kenneth O'Keefe, who took part in the aid fleet mission. Man is straight on point. Something needs to give, Israel's antics grow more and more disgusting day by day.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00sz5sj/HARDtalk_Kenneth_OKeefe_Gaza_flotilla_activist/

Sorry, not available outside the UK. Not for me anyway.

 

[Instigator]

Israel declares itself... innocent. Turkey's not buying it.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diploma...la-probe-has-no-value-or-credibility-1.338741

Turkey: Israel's Gaza flotilla probe has no value or credibility

Israel's Turkel Commission finds that IDF soldiers acted in self-defense during raid on Gaza-bound ship, concludes Israel's blockade of Gaza is in accordance with international law.

Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan rejected Sunday the findings of an Israeli panel of inquiry into an Israel Defense Forces raid on a Gaza-bound ship last May, dismissing the Israeli conclusions that the IDF soldiers acted in self-defense when they killed nine Turkish citizens on board the ship.

Erdogan told reporters in Ankara on Sunday that the Israeli report had "no value or credibility." The Turkish Foreign Ministry also issued a statement in response to the Israeli inquiry and said it was "appalled and dismayed" at the findings, which cleared Israel of wrongdoing in the raid on the Turkish ship.

In the first part of its report, the Turkel Commission determined on Sunday that Israel's three and a half year blockade of Gaza did not in fact break international law. The first part of the report focused on the legality of the blockade on Gaza and of Israeli efforts to enforce it, including the raid on the six-ship flotilla.

Turkey condemned the findings of Israel's Turkel Commission, and said that in its own panel of inquiry it found Israel's blockade of the Gaza Strip and its raid on the Turkish-led Gaza flotilla in violation of international law.

Israeli naval commanders boarded the Mavi Marmara, the flagship of the Turkish-sponsored Gaza-bound aid flotilla, on May 31, 2010. The activists on board the boat resisted, and nine people were killed. The commission determined that the incident did not constitute an offense against international law as there were clear indications that the flotilla intended to break the naval blockade.

The report also determined that Israel had been in compliance with the formal conditions of enforcing a naval blockade on the Gaza Strip, adding that Israel had also complied with the humanitarian conditions for such a blockade.

However, the report was critical of Israel's land blockade of the coastal enclave, calling on Israel to "examine of the medical needs of the people of Gaza in order to find ways to improve the current situation."

The commission also urged the Israeli government to examine ways to "focus its sanctions on Hamas while avoiding harm against the civilian population."

 

[crazy monkey]

Israel declares itself... innocent. Turkey's not buying it.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diploma...la-probe-has-no-value-or-credibility-1.338741

Expected.

 

[RustyNails]

Expected.

Of course. How else do you expect a belligerent state like Israel to react? 'we are so sorry it won't happen again promise!' Israel always likes to commit murder and then blame the victim for provoking.

 

[Ivan A Nguyen]

Am I wrong to think of Starwars when I read the title of the thread? I remember a certain rebel princess was on an 'aid mission' when she was transporting the plans of the death star.

What worries me the most is with tattoine currently in turmoil, where will the droids go?

After checking the dates of the original post I see there is nothing to worry about. This happened months ago right?

 

[Instigator]

Am I wrong to think of Starwars when I read the title of the thread? I remember a certain rebel princess was on an 'aid mission' when she was transporting the plans of the death star.

What worries me the most is with tattoine currently in turmoil, where will the droids go?

After checking the dates of the original post I see there is nothing to worry about. This happened months ago right?

Yes, you are.

Many GAF threads are suited for comedy, but not this one.

 

[EYEL1NER]

Expected.

Yep.
EDIT: I was surprised to see this thread pop up again. Figured it wouldn't have been any kind of good news or anything. It isn't.

 

[Particle Physicist]

Israel declares itself... innocent. Turkey's not buying it.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diploma...la-probe-has-no-value-or-credibility-1.338741

I was going to make a comment earlier about how there is an aspect of that report that is seemingly being ignored by most of the media (and the politicians), and I wish it wasn't... but I guess you would just say that they would be stealth Israel apologist comments.

Spoiler

However, the report was critical of Israel's land blockade of the coastal enclave, calling on Israel to "examine of the medical needs of the people of Gaza in order to find ways to improve the current situation."

The commission also urged the Israeli government to examine ways to "focus its sanctions on Hamas while avoiding harm against the civilian population."

Spoiler

Even internal Israeli reports are saying that their blockade is too extreme and harmful to innocent civilians. I hope peace groups inside Israel latch onto this aspect of the report to put pressure on the government, but the controversial flotilla findings will likely overshadow this part.

 

[mAcOdIn]

I was going to make a comment earlier about how there is an aspect of that report that is seemingly being ignored by most of the media (and the politicians), and I wish it wasn't... but I guess you would just say that they would be stealth Israel apologist comments.

Spoiler

Even internal Israeli reports are saying that their blockade is too extreme and harmful to innocent civilians. I hope peace groups inside Israel latch onto this aspect of the report to put pressure on the government, but the controversial flotilla findings will likely overshadow this part.

Of course that'd be ignored, that's the standard negative comment you put in any self evaluation to make it look balanced, doesn't even mean they believe what they wrote. It's like if your boss came and asked you what you do right and what you could improve on.

 

[Particle Physicist]

Of course that'd be ignored, that's the standard negative comment you put in any self evaluation to make it look balanced, doesn't even mean they believe what they wrote. It's like if your boss came and asked you what you do right and what you could improve on.

I guess, but it shouldn't be ignored. If Netanyahu and Barak are touting the report as legitimate and accurate, I would hope that more progressive groups within Israel use that against the current direction in the government.

 

[weekend_warrior]

I thought the Israelis were the good guys. Why they starting shit with er'body?

 

[mAcOdIn]

I guess, but it shouldn't be ignored. If Netanyahu and Barak are touting the report as legitimate and accurate, I would hope that more progressive groups within Israel use that against the current direction in the government.

But it's a feint, focusing on it actually draws attention from the real issue, that being having a blockade at all, not whether they're properly assessing the medical needs of those affected or spending enough money "examining" ways to do the same things but nicer.

 

[Particle Physicist]

But it's a feint, focusing on it actually draws attention from the real issue, that being having a blockade at all, not whether they're properly assessing the medical needs of those affected or spending enough money "examining" ways to do the same things but nicer.

That is true. Though the point I was trying to make was that even this obviously biased report found issues with the blockade which, I would think, any decent politician (or political group) can use as additional fodder.

 

[mAcOdIn]

That is true. Though the point I was trying to make was that even this obviously biased report found issues with the blockade which, I would think, any decent politician (or political group) can use as additional fodder.

I dunno, I just feel like using it's conclusion would somehow validate the report, which in turn would validate the blockades and change the argument form "blockades yay or nay" to "blockade, stricter or looser." Maybe that is the most realistic thing right now but it's already a huge concession it's like playing to lose.

 

[Particle Physicist]

I dunno, I just feel like using it's conclusion would somehow validate the report, which in turn would validate the blockades and change the argument form "blockades yay or nay" to "blockade, stricter or looser." Maybe that is the most realistic thing right now but it's already a huge concession it's like playing to lose.

Well, I'm talking about groups within Israel, where the government considers the report valid. Of course, the report is a joke to even mention outside of Israel.

 

[mAcOdIn]

Well, I'm talking about groups within Israel, where the government considers the report valid.

I realize that, I also assume you're talking about groups a little more sympathetic to the Palestinian cause than the current majority party, I just worry about standards. You see it in our country too, how politicians can set the boundaries of acceptable within the media by implanting things into the population's mind set. If all sides now agree the blockade is a good thing and just disagree over the specifics of the blockade that may actually mean less pressure to remove the blockade because the public mindset will shift. Of course a loosening of the blockade would be better for them but it also can mean living with the blockade longer(since as far as I'm aware it's still ongoing).

Of course I may be misunderstanding you and you might just be more for just replacing the current Israeli government with something else without caring about this specific issue, in which case, yeah, there's not much risk in using the report and they could probably score some political points with it.

 

[A Black Falcon]

I dunno, I just feel like using it's conclusion would somehow validate the report, which in turn would validate the blockades and change the argument form "blockades yay or nay" to "blockade, stricter or looser." Maybe that is the most realistic thing right now but it's already a huge concession it's like playing to lose.

Blockading terrorists so that they find it much harder to get rockets, bombs, etc. to blow up your people up with, and the money to buy that stuff with, most definitely isn't wrong.

What's your argument again, anti-Israeli or utilitarian? The former is obvious; the latter would be "there is more overall human suffering in Gaza now than there would be in Gaza and Israel combined if there was no blockade," which, I think, is most definitely no sure thing. The violence would without question get worse. I quite doubt that other benefits would make up for that.

(from the report)

However, the report was critical of Israel's land blockade of the coastal enclave, calling on Israel to "examine of the medical needs of the people of Gaza in order to find ways to improve the current situation."

The commission also urged the Israeli government to examine ways to "focus its sanctions on Hamas while avoiding harm against the civilian population."

This is true, Hamas is the target and the sanctions certainly should be focused on things that would help Hamas. The problem is, Hamas controls Gaza, and a large number, probably a majority, of the Gazan people support them. That must make it quite difficult to determine which things support Hamas and which don't. Still though, certainly a focus on things that would help Hamas fight and those things only would be best, while allowing through humanitarian supplies.

The problem with these things often is, thoguh, that even if you do allow through humanitarian supplies, regimes often don't give them to the people. For instance, Saddam Hussein's Iraq was blockaded through most of the '90s. The sanctions were heavily criticized by peace groups who said things about how many Iraqis were dying because of lacking medical supplies and such, but while that was likely true, that was only part of the story. The other part was that (in the aftermath of the Gulf War and after Israel bombed Iraq's nuclear facility earlier on) the sanctions successfully stopped Saddam's nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons programs. Sadaam had had all three in the '80s, but was never able to re-constitute them, and a big part of the credit for that has to go to the sanctions. There's no question this was a very good thing.

Also though, as I said these regimes often keep the stuff. If you give them medical supplies or whatever, who are they going to go to, the sick people or the army's supplies? It's likely to be the latter. Humanitarian supplies must be sent anyway, of course, but just because they're being sent doesn't mean people actually get them. This varies from place to place, of course.

The financial pressure sanctions put on bad regimes -- Saddam's Iraq, post-revolutionary Iran, Hamas, the Burmese junta, North Korea, etc -- also does have a negative impact. Critics often say how sanctions only hurt the people, while the leaders aren't as affected because they have more money, I would say that the truth is that while the people sadly do suffer, the leaderships do as well. Sure, Saddam had a lot of palaces, but he didn't exactly have the same military, nuclear/chemical/biological weapons program, etc. that he had had before. Not even close. That wasn't just because of the first Gulf War, but because of the sanctions and blockade and no-fly-zone as well.

That is to say, without the sanctions and blockade there would be many more attacks coming into Israel from Gaza. The Israeli government has a right to defend its people from attack, and to stop blockade-breaking -- or, in this case, publicity-seeking -- efforts. They should examine which things are banned and which aren't and do what more they can to help the Gazan people despite themselves (they're the ones who elected Hamas, after all), though. That would be good on all levels. But the basic concept of sanctions is one that I support and I think works. It should only be applied against regimes that really deserve them -- the US sanctions against Cuba clearly are absurd in their totality, a lingering Cold War relic. Though punishing them some for their repressive government would be fine, we go way too far; of course our standards are very inconsistently applied, as there are many other repressive regimes that we support instead of oppose, I still support having them when we can. I only wish that we could do something against China (the world's biggest human rights abuser) too... I know though, that's unlikely to say the least.) Considering who run Gaza, some kinds of restrictions are reasonable to try to restrict their capacity for violence.

Also, though, as for the raid, yes of course they should have tried harder to not kill people. The flotilla had to be stopped, though. Sanctions only work when you control what's getting into a country, and such a blatant publicity attempt couldn't be allowed to get through. Of course getting stopped and maybe shot at has to have been the whole purpose of the flotilla from the beginning -- it was quite obvious they wouldn't be let through, and when they resisted and didn't stop they got just what they were expecting, a disproportionate Israeli military response that they could bash Israel in the world press with. That doesn't excuse the killings, but it's not like they were innocent victims. I don't doubt that at least some of the killings were in self defense, they were attacked. But the amount of force used was probably disproportionate. I can't say much about the quality of the whole report itself though, I haven't read it.

Of course considering that drawing out the Israeli military like that was pretty much the whole point of the flotilla, it's too bad that Israel played right into their hands (PR-wise, but also in terms of human cost of course) by killing people while stopping the ships. They had to be stopped, but it seems like there must have been some less violent way to do it. Would have been much better all around. With the extremist right in control of Israel right now, though, evidently they just didn't care about that.

It's difficult. On the one hand, I do believe that when you're talking about casualties in war, numbers matter -- that is, that fewer deaths is good. You have to balance that against potential harm, though, either for Gaza with Israel or for Afghanistan and Pakistan for the US. More people may die immediately thanks to the war (though many, many fewer than would have in past decades, thanks to improving technology; in Vietnam millions of Vietnamese people died, while in Iraq and Afghanistan, civilian casualties, while tragically high (there surely are many people on our side who should be punished for crimes but never will be, sadly), have been pretty low compared to that war. Still they're still far too high, people's ability to ignore casualties from countries of peoples that are not their own is understandable psychologically but unfortunate, perhaps some of the conflicts were unavoidable (not Vietnam or Iraq, those never should have happened) but the scale of death? More could be done about that.), but would things be even worse long term if you did nothing and left the other side as is? That's a very difficult calculation to make, but there are cases where I think action is justified. And that's one place where sanctions and blockades come in, as a good measure that punishes a country or area, without the additional chaos of a war.

I mean, returning to Israel and the Palestinian territories, the sanctions may be tough on Gaza, but is there much question that another war would be worse?

Peace is what everyone should want there, but in that part of the world, but in that part of the world particularly, the path to a wide peace definitely does not look promising, both because of Israel and because of rivalries between the other Middle Eastern states (the Iranian nuclear program is a threat to Saudi Arabia and probably Turkey as well as Israel and the US and Europe, for instance). It's pretty sad.

Even internal Israeli reports are saying that their blockade is too extreme and harmful to innocent civilians. I hope peace groups inside Israel latch onto this aspect of the report to put pressure on the government, but the controversial flotilla findings will likely overshadow this part.

That's entirely possible, there are a variety of views within Israel. As a liberal (American) I don't like the fact that Israel is controlled by the far right. It will be very difficult to achieve peace in the Middle East as long as the conservatives are in power in Israel, that much is clear. I'm not sure if this will hurt the government, though. It mostly supports the governments' actions, after all. Still, there is some criticism in it, so perhaps it'll do something. We'll see. Commissions anywhere have a mixed record on that, just think of how many American commissions have made suggestions that the government has ended up ignoring.

On the note of peace, true peace with Hamas, Hezbollah, etc. is of course impossible until they abandon their stated ultimate goals of destroying the state of Israel. That's why the focus of peace talks is between Israel and the West Bank PLO, because peace there is, while quite difficult thanks to some hard to reconcile positions, the status of East Jerusalem probably the most important among them, certainly possible in the not-too-distant future. The goal is, I think, that eventually Gaza and such will see how much better off the West Bank is (I mean, in a situation where there's been a peace treaty, land swap both sides agree on, and Palestinian state in the West Bank; it may seem impossible, but it's not, just hard. Very difficult to get anywhere with with this Israeli government, but still not impossible.) and they will decide to ditch support for Hamas and terrorism and make peace too. They would end up better off in the end.

I thought the Israelis were the good guys. Why they starting shit with er'body?

This thread is heavily dominated by opponents of Israel and of the blockade, it's not exactly a balanced perspective... those ships went to Gaza specifically to make press trying to get through the blockade and almost certainly being stopped, likely with some force if they refused to stop as indeed they did not. Israel used too much force in response to that, but the whole thing was a definite provocation. Israel bashers such as many of the people in this thread then used that against Israel, as they will anything they can that makes Israel look bad.

I wanted to expand on this.

For one, I don't think that is really true. I think, hope, that there's actually a rather wide difference in what countries truly feel about Iran versus the line everyone takes with Iran essentially at our(the US) behalf. Basically, I feel that modern Western European countries are so comfortable with their relative regional peace and the status quo that if the US says that Iran's a bad guy they'll go along with it just because they don't really want to rock the boat, but I don't think most nations actually believe half the shit they say about Iran. I pretty much think they're cowards.

Second, I think the Western world would do much more to bring Israel in line against a nation like Iran than they would Greece, to use your example. If Greece was getting up in arms over Israel I think the Western nations would feel they have a much better shot at restraining Greece than they do Israel, hence I don't think much good would actually come of a Western friendly nation being at odds with Israel. Iran, on the other hand, isn't really controllable by us, between the two countries we have much more pull over Israel than Iran, if it came down to a showdown between those two, if we were going to stop it, I think there's a decent chance we'd lean on Israel.

That's all assuming that someone's going to get talked down. There's the possibility that things escalate, I obviously don't like that but it may be necessary for that to happen for this to ever be resolved.

The bogeyman in the room with this whole thing, of course, is the Iranian nuclear program. They get nukes and the situation in the whole Middle East gets very different... I don't necessarily think that Iran would suicidally nuke Israel, but even so it certainly would be a top-order threat. It'd probably cause a chain reaction in the whole region too, as the Saudis would then need a nuclear program, and perhaps others as well (Turkey? Egypt?). Iran getting nukes would not be a good thing for world peace, to say the least, I (and the American government) think. The problem is, though, what you can do. Invasion's a terrible idea (I certainly would be opposed, just like I was with Iraq). Bombing's tough, they have lots of facilities. It would probably set them back, but would it stop it? Talking... we're trying that now, but they aren't exactly being willing to give up much, it seems to mostly be a stall for time. The newest idea seems to be that somewhat successful computer virus, and that's really a clever idea, but it won't stop their nuclear program forever...