Whompa02
Member
Identity is part of the plot, which is a part of the original source material. Don't get it twisted.
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Ghost in the Shell (2017) Review Thread
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Identity is part of the plot, which is a part of the original source material. Don't get it twisted.
What!? Have you even seen the film? Not to mention politics extends beyond the issue of whitewashing.
Scientist Supreme!
Banned
I can't handle being wrong and dumb so I'll just double down on my stupidity.
Inferno313
Banned
I'm convinced you haven't seen the film. This stuff isn't even the film's subtext! It's the film's text!
Now, you could disagree with this reviewer if you read the film a different way. However, suggesting that this stuff isn't worth talking about is to literally say a large portion of the film's story and of Major's character arc isn't worth talking about.
Whompa02
Member
Not yet. Loved the manga as well as both seasons and the anime movies. I'm excited to see it though. Hopefully they respect the source material without changing too much. So far visually it looked pretty close...just not really looking as significant or enriching as the originals. Excited to see it involves the refugee crisis though.
Fingers crossed.
how thoughtful. Thanks for contributing.
I never said I did.
This movie is going to catch bodies because people will insist on bitching about people caring about the whitewashing while not realizing that the film straight up forces the subject even more than they realize because they have yet to see the film themselves.
Gonna be a lot of:
"Why can't you all just let it g...."
"Oh... you mean the movie actually put a spotlight on the topic? Nevermind me then, just looking stupid over here..."
Do yourself a favor and take this off-ramp. And let the reviewers that have actually SEEN the movie do their jobs, instead of commenting from a place of ignorance about how they aren't.
Gonna be a lot of:
"Why can't you all just let it g...."
"Oh... you mean the movie actually put a spotlight on the topic? Nevermind me then, just looking stupid over here..."
Do yourself a favor and take this off-ramp. And let the reviewers that have actually SEEN the movie do their jobs, instead of commenting from a place of ignorance about how they aren't.
Inferno313
Banned
Then why are you posting this nonsense? The story in this film is heavily rewritten from the original. You literally don't have any idea what you're talking about.
Yup, it was already a sore subject, but if the movie is just gonna put it right in your face, well...
Whompa02
Member
I'm more than allowed to comment on a movie. You know my background now on the franchise. All I said was suggesting is that reviewers lambasting a studio for casting Johansson is silly.
Inferno313
Banned
It's not silly. What's silly is believing that you know better than critics on a film they've seen, and you haven't.
Anton Sugar
Member
The plot is Hanka picks up runways uses them for their experiments most of them are killed, some are not. The Major survived and later remembers her past. She accepts it, so does her mother, nobody gives a damn about the race and her mother prepares her room for her because it is still her daughter and she is still the Majors mother. You know as if somebody would change their identity or sexuality and still would be accepted, because love or self goes beyond that.
The issue is more, that people how are always insulted look for a reason to show everybody again their moral superiority and how insulted they are for everybody and how unfair all of this is. That in the context of the movie or the Ghost in the Shell universe this is not an issue is not the point and does not even mater, because their moral outrage is beyond that.
Suzushiiro
Banned
So basically it's as bad of an adaptation as everyone was expecting but a solid enough action flick otherwise, as opposed to most Hollywood adaptations of anime/games which are terrible regardless of if you're judging them in a vacuum or judging them next to the source material.
I think if there was nothing to talk about re: whitewashing beyond the fact that they cast white actors in the roles of characters who were originally Asian while simultaneously keeping the Asian-ness of the original's setting when it looked cool you'd maybe have a point, as anyone who could possibly give a shit either way already knows so you're just wasting time and space by spending part of the review talking about it instead of the content of the film that hadn't been talked about to death pre-release. But the fact that the movie's story draws specific attention to how it handled the race of the characters makes it a subject worth getting into in a review.
Honestly, after hearing about what this movie did I kind of want to see a "whitewashed" movie that makes the fact that the characters are "supposed" to be non-white a part of its plot- the idea could be interesting if it was handled right, but it sounds like GitS failed spectacularly at it.
I think if there was nothing to talk about re: whitewashing beyond the fact that they cast white actors in the roles of characters who were originally Asian while simultaneously keeping the Asian-ness of the original's setting when it looked cool you'd maybe have a point, as anyone who could possibly give a shit either way already knows so you're just wasting time and space by spending part of the review talking about it instead of the content of the film that hadn't been talked about to death pre-release. But the fact that the movie's story draws specific attention to how it handled the race of the characters makes it a subject worth getting into in a review.
Honestly, after hearing about what this movie did I kind of want to see a "whitewashed" movie that makes the fact that the characters are "supposed" to be non-white a part of its plot- the idea could be interesting if it was handled right, but it sounds like GitS failed spectacularly at it.
Totally, but part of me feels like these same people controlling the purse strings are the same people keeping Zack Snyder at the helm of the DCEU.
A lot of the times it's not "the best", and is more "who I like", and thus...Matt Damon in The Wall.
The movie slavishly follows some really wierd aspects of the source material so...why not just take it at face value.
I mean for fuck's sake, they don't even tell you what city it's in and they have Beat Takeshi speaking solely japanese because it's cool (and for literally no other reason). The moment you try to use the same level of subplot analysis that you'd use for the manga or the original movie or the TV show, it falls apart because it's being simplistic for the sake of newcommers who just want a movie were robit people shoot each other for 2 hours.
Whitewashing is a huge problem, and this movie does it's fair share of it. But using it as a boot to put on the neck of this movie is silly. The movie isn't good enough to be the poster child of white washing, especially when the crux of the movie hinges on "people have sold off their humanity ot the highest bidder, so the things that make us different have gotten to a point where it doesn't really matter. We're all going to lose ourselves in the network anyway, so what's race or creed or gender or sense of self even matter in this world?"
The outrage is because they changed an Asian character into a white character for no other reason than the studio not wanting an Asian.
Nobody is looking for a reason. It smacked them in the face!
I feel like the twist could've been pretty profound if, in some parallel universe,
But as it is it's just eyeroll worthy.
the ethnicities were reversed and it was a white mother who accepts her daughter's brain in an Asian body.
But as it is it's just eyeroll worthy.
That is something you made up, because you want it to be so. Because it would help your narrative of the terrible world where some people are the only beacons of light against all that injustice and racism and stuff and everybody else is just terrible and greedy and insensitive and stuff.
Anton Sugar
Member
Never gets old.
Inferno313
Banned
What? This is literally a film where a white woman plays a character named Makoto Kusanagi. No one is making shit up.
Narrative or not you have to admit that we do live in this world, right?
And that Hollywood is notorious for being an exemplar of this particular phenomenon, right?
Ghost in the Shell has never existed in an apolitical vacuum, and to claim so in a movie that practically begs us to notice how Asian it is in every goddamn frame is ridiculous.
Your latest post better illustrates your issue as lying solely on Johansson's casting but what a clumsy way to bring it up. Just watch the movie first if you wanna discuss it.
Hold up, you took issue with the reviews "soaked in political nonsense" but you're looking forward to how they implement the refugee crisis???
Your latest post better illustrates your issue as lying solely on Johansson's casting but what a clumsy way to bring it up. Just watch the movie first if you wanna discuss it.
Spyder_Monkey
Banned
Whoever came up with that twist needs to be fired... out of a cannon.
A white women is playing the shell of a cyborg which used to be Motoko Kusanagi.
Scientist Supreme!
Banned
Its okay to be wrong. No need make up... whatever this post is.
Inferno313
Banned
You have to be either incredibly dense or incredibly insensitive to not even comprehend why someone might be put off by this.
kitchenmotors
Banned
I loved it. ScarJo was perfect as major and the entire cast of section 9 had great chemistry. Would love another movie focusing on section 9.
As a huge fan of the original, I thought they did a good no with the source material. Music was on point too without being overdone. Clint is magic.
Reviews are off base, just like with Power Rangers.
As a huge fan of the original, I thought they did a good no with the source material. Music was on point too without being overdone. Clint is magic.
Reviews are off base, just like with Power Rangers.
But, the whole point of the ending is that Motoko is Motoko no matter what shell she's wearing. ScarJo is, literally, Motoko Kusanagi as is made explicit by the text.
There is no "used to be". The entire movie argues that she "is".
There is no "used to be". The entire movie argues that she "is".
So you say, because this happens a lot, this can be the only reason for it and even if it is not the point in this movie, we still are in the right to bring it up, because it happens so often.
Why do I somehow get the impression it has nothing to do with the movie at all.
Whompa02
Member
It was the plot in the second season of the anime. Did you watch that? I particularly thought that was the most interesting part of the franchise. It was the best story GITS had.
This was way before 2017 mind you...
Her name is an alias...did you not know this??? Assuming you didn't really read up on the source material? Sigh...really my dude? You're trying to shit on people and you didn't even know that the main character's name isn't her real name?
Which, while valid, has nothing to do with how good or bad the movie is. That's what a lot of people in this conversation are getting caught up on. The movie isn't good or bad because ScarJo is in it. The Hollywood situation is arguably bad because she's in it, but that has nothing to do with the quality, or lack there of, with the film.
LOL wut? Where have you been for the past 6 months? The outrage is real to the point where it overshadows whether this movie is actually worth seeing.
Holy crap, a movie with the message you are still yourself no mater how you look, even if you change your body, people will still accept who you are.
That is the most offensive thing I have ever saw, sorry you are right. How dare they.
Why does the "point of the movie" matter? Some people prefer to focus on the text exclusively. Others prefer to evaluate text within the context of the society in which they're made.
This is Criticism 101.
As long as you're white, or possibly ScarJo.
When a movie shows me you don't have to be white or hot to be accepted I applaud them for the positive messaging. Otherwise, nah.
Oh brother.
Motoko Kusanagi is the character. She didn't have to be They could have done a regular adaptation like The Departed, change everything around.
Instead, they made her a Japanese person who is rebuilt as a white person.
literally make a Japanese character into a white character
It's ok to admit that something you like is racially problematic. I like Transformers but I have to deal with the Michael Bay movies. I like Star Wars but the original movie is as white as it gets. Criticism is good, it makes things better.
Okay so you seem to have a pretty good grasp on how politics can inform, influence, and shape a text then. I never got around to watching the second season, that does sound interesting. In any case I hope you get something out of the movie.
The weirdest thing about the movie is that they directly reference a lot of stuff from season 2 for seemingly no reason. Space for a sequel I guess.
Not in this movie.
Wow, just wow. It must be incredible to exist in a world like that. Ok, this is way too much for me. I just can't. I am out.
Whompa02
Member
Highly highly recommend it. I enjoyed the story more than the movies. While the movies are great pieces of art, the characterization and pacing of the second season is fantastic.
It must be nice to live in a world where all your moral lessons being delivered by mighty whitey doesn't rub you the wrong way at all.
I'm actually envious.
Hellwarden
Member
I think it's a shame they apparently removed the scene where the Major kisses a woman.
The Major being rather open in expressing her sexuality with both men and women was always a cool aspect of her.
Granted, maybe the scene just didn't work.
The Major being rather open in expressing her sexuality with both men and women was always a cool aspect of her.
Granted, maybe the scene just didn't work.
Politics in Ghost in the Shell? Why I never...
Scientist Supreme!
Banned
The foundation of my argument is so weak that I'm too scared to challenge this post. I'll just respond about how your post is "too much for me" and leave.
It's not weird at all, the director apparently went through all of Ghost in the Shell and chose bits and pieces he thought were cool. This was their approach to adaptation. Without any regard for why symbols, imagery, and other visuals were used in past works, they just put it in there to attract fans or because it looks striking.
IbukiLordSA
Member
Just got back from watching this and holy **** what a ****ing awesome movie. The world design they created was incredible. Scarlett played the Major so damn well, she had that feeling of human but also robot to her, how she moved, looked and expressed all just great. The way they did that big scene was ****ing incredible, I was hoping they would do it justice and they did, felt the same way I did watching that as I felt as a 12 year old kid watching the anime for the first time. I can't wait to watch it again.
Whompa02
Member
You misunderstood that deliberately, didn't you? lol.
I mean, that scene was a hamfisted attempt to sort of recreate the idea that the Major has female friends in which she has sexual relationships in the source material. It's meaningless though because the movie's version of Motoko isn't about relationships or bonds, she's painted as a lost soul trying to cope with what she is, so the scene is more about her studying humanity while trying to find it within her than it does about her sexuality.
I reread the first half of ghost in the shell after seeing the movie and it's pretty interesting how dramatically both this movie and the original turn her into a snarky, fun loving hardass and just make her into a robot, as if Oshii was more interested in making his own version of Metropolis than retelling that story.
I mean, it worked. Granted, I was in a press screening and everyone in there EXCEPT THE PRESS had intricate knowledge of the GITS universe, but everyone perked up when the villain said his name.
Critique of GitS has always had inherent politics around it separate from the internal politics of the source material's universe. The reviews involving external politics is nothing new.
Too bad the external politics eclipses the politics of the work, by virtue of the fact that the film is rather shallow in that regard.
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