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Grandia® II Anniversary Edition (PC) |OT| Still Not Vague Enough 15 Years Later

F

Falk

that puzzling face
Just try replacing one and seeing what happens. I don't foresee it being an issue, since the oggs most likely came from the soundtrack in some form or another anyway, so the loop points -should- still work with a re-encode. It's not like the tempo is changed or anything

Failing which, might be possible to open up Audition to line up the CD version with the existing ogg before encoding, since unlike MP3 encoding, ogg does not add silence to the beginning, changing the timing.
 
S

Sir_Crocodile

Member
Falk said:
I actually prefer the story, setting and soundtrack though. It was a coming-of-age story of discovery, through and through, and no game has ever really recaptured that.
Click to expand...

I thought Breath of Fire 3 did that very well too, though Ryu was thrust into it rather then dashing towards it like Justin.
 
BONKERS

BONKERS

Member
Falk said:
Just try replacing one and seeing what happens. I don't foresee it being an issue, since the oggs most likely came from the soundtrack in some form or another anyway, so the loop points -should- still work with a re-encode. It's not like the tempo is changed or anything

Failing which, might be possible to open up Audition to line up the CD version with the existing ogg before encoding, since unlike MP3 encoding, ogg does not add silence to the beginning, changing the timing.
Click to expand...

While it may not have silence, there are alternate instrumenations of some songs that are lined up as one continuous track on the OST. Making a bit more difficult to line up the loops to match the game's encoded versions.

It's not impossible (Considering i'll be doing it with my regular DAW that I use. It will be a little easier to match it sample wise.) , but adds another layer of annoyance. Where prior all i'd have to do is destructively edit the correct portions of partial songs and set my own loop points.

Since they haven't added loop tags and haven't re=encoded the songs (Meaning many of them are still the same 80'ish kbs 5+ minute loops before fading out) if the looping point is set in samples (like with Loop tags with OGG) if they don't match up there is a chance for error as well.


I'll have to play with it unless they come in and tell me how their solution works and whether this is the LAST change to it. (So I only have to make the OST replacement pack once)
 
F

Falk

that puzzling face
Eh, believe me I've done worse to get things working.

I was paid for it though, which makes all the difference ;p
 
F

Falk

that puzzling face
So, sorry for the fortnight-later bump. It's totally on me - I should have spotted this on the Steam forums earlier. GungHo posted the following regarding Grandia 2 Anniversary edition which has quite a bit to do with expectation management.

Loose Ends and Lingering Questions

Greetings everyone. You've been a passionate and awesome community, and I wanted to make a big official post to help tie up and clarify some potential loose ends we have seen brought up in various places.

Regarding the event scene sync issue. Most scenes match up pretty closely, but you will notice a bit of audio sync is lost the longer an event plays out. Testing these out after dropping the framerate from 30FPS to 25 FPS, we were able to see that the most notable sync issues (the opening sequence, Elena’s singing in the church) were then “in-sync” like the Dreamcast version that many users have pointed out to us. However, dropping the framerate to 25 FPS ended up throwing off the timing of many of the other scenes, off-set dialogue text box flow, and actually caused the game (non-battles) to run more sluggish than the original Dreamcast version.

Unfortunately it was not possible to cherry pick and have some scenes run at 25 FPS and the rest of the game at 30 FPS. We had to stick with the decision to compromise the audio sync of these scenes to maintain the integrity of the rest of game. We understand for some this may not have been a popular decision, but short of re-writing the code for massive chunks of the game (practically the whole thing), it was the best option we had available.

We don't want to plant any false seeds of hope for elements like 100% reproduction of audio synchronized scenes, having 16:9 widescreen without stretched visual assets, “officially” supporting multiple languages (though we've noted some exciting projects by our fans), or that we will somehow be able to implement 60 FPS across the board. If you are still on the fence regarding a potential refund or the decision to purchase, we wanted you to be fully informed.

As for the crash issues, these affect different users in different ways. It's nearly impossible to pinpoint individual causes for everyone, but different troubleshooting steps have been helpful for many. The biggest one has been making sure all your video card drivers are properly updated and authenticated -- especially if you've recently upgraded to Windows 10. The other is to make sure you are running the game with a dedicated GPU rather than the integrated graphics option. Depending on your device manufacturer, the means by which you do this can change. Finally, you may want to disable the 60 FPS in battle as well as the shadows if you are running the game on a lower spec system.

We'd like to again thank you for all the love and support you've shown for Grandia II: Anniversary Edition, and we've also greatly appreciated your feedback and patience as we rolled out all these patches in the last month and a half.

Of course, we'll still be here in the official community and we've got some fun events planned for the future, so please stay tuned! And, finally, if you still witness bugs and crashes, please feel free to outline and report them here as well as our official support Email.
Click to expand...

In short, feature-creep patches are done. The game is going to pretty much be the way it is now short of someone discovering catastrophic issues. I've updated the OP to match this information.

Caspel & GungHo: The game may not have had the best of launches, but the transparency and dedication to addressing major issues has been nothing short of extremely refreshing. There's leftover issues, sure, but the port has gone from serviceable to pretty damned good, and the transparency really leaves no big questions unresolved.

Maybe modding can take further along the way, eventually. Maybe a bunch of really dedicated enthusiasts will figure out how to get passable widescreen implementation. Maybe not. Maybe all we'll get are touched-up sprites in combat UI and a hi-def soundtrack. It's okay - I still look forward to maintaining a list or even package of must-have 'HD-ification mods' on the OP for posterity's sake. Maybe interest fizzles out way before that point. But for what it is, it's been an awesome ride, and I can't wait to see what you guys are up to next in an official capacity.

Thanks for the great nostalgia trip.
 
Danny Dudekisser

Danny Dudekisser

I paid good money for this Dynex!
Okay, so I guess now it's safe to start the thing. I assume that it's still overwhelmingly better than the DC original.
 
Ooccoo

Ooccoo

Member
After replaying the game in full (waited for patches), I can honestly say Grandia II didn't age well at all. Yea the combat is fun, but you keep fighting the same monsters (only in X color variant) and the story is your typical "I need to save the world" journey, at least that's the feeling I got. I had completed it on the Dreamcast too.

Unskippable cutscenes are bad, the game doesn't reward exploration (here's some worthless potions and gold, cities are copy-pasted), it's too easy and pretty forgettable. There are three great things: Ryudo, the combat and most of the music.
 
F

Falk

that puzzling face
Chacranajxy said:
Okay, so I guess now it's safe to start the thing. I assume that it's still overwhelmingly better than the DC original.
Click to expand...

If you want a direct A-B, there are some issues in this port not present in the DC version (both mentioned in that quote and otherwise) but I personally feel it's a much better experience overall.
 
S

ShadowgeistX

Member
Ooccoo said:
There are three great things: Ryudo, the combat and most of the music.
Click to expand...

That already makes it a great RPG when you put it alongside a lot of jRPGs nowadays.

Anyways, I wonder how the game's done for Gungho. I'm ready for the rest of the Grandia series anytime. =)
 
BONKERS

BONKERS

Member
I don't understand how 25FPS is the thing that fixes the cutscenes?

On an emulator the game runs at 30FPS/60VPS in all of these scenes. If this is true, then HOW is it they are synced on the Dreamcast???
Unless they are actually somehow running at 25FPS while not being supper juddery and ugly ooking on the DC....(25 is not an even multiple of 60). What the heck is going on here???

Unless the PAL version is the basis for this? (Assuming it runs at 25FPS/50VPS , I don't know if it does)

What you are doing for looping the audio has not been explained either. However I haven't had the time to experiment with replacing everything and doing loop tests in game.
Just using OGG's loop tags would been the easy thing to do.
(This is mostly an issue just because a lot of the songs are still the same old super low sample rate versions from the original game with much higher quality versions available. The encodes are also reporting as being super low bit-rate which bugs me a lot. Though I can't say I know anything about the bit-rates of the original audio files from the DC version either)


I will say I appreciate the communication and transparency. You put many others to shame in so many ways. And for that, I am grateful.

Even if the Cutscene De-Syncing issue completely breaks my heart.

What would it take to fix this monetary wise? How much money would it cost to make this work as it is supposed to?
 
F

Falk

that puzzling face
PAL version possibly?

I dunno if that ran at 25fps.

edit: lol@your edit god damnit

edit2: I'm gonna be ever the optimist and say maybe someone in the hierarchy said "okay that's it for Grandia 2 we gotta move on to the next port"

(!!!)
 
BONKERS

BONKERS

Member
I'd throw my money at them to help fix that damn thing if it was not super expensive... (Dreaming)

(｡□ﾟﾉ)ﾉ ＼(´◓Д◔`)／
 
F

Falk

that puzzling face
Not sure. I don't have my saves (long story), and although I'm tempted to replay the game again with the latest patch, it'd be from the start again.

If you have a save near
Valmar's Moon, specifically just before the Egg Guardian boss
the cutscene right after where
Millenia is being eaten
is one of the points in the game where I can remember the clipping issue being prevalent if you want to check up on it. (I'm curious too)

This is what it should(n't) look like SPOILERS OBVIOUSLY.
 
F

Falk

that puzzling face
edit: Actually not sure if it does. I managed to mess my folder up without backing it up, so if it has cloud saves, it must have uploaded that to the cloud.
 
BONKERS

BONKERS

Member
Sounds like a good time to buy a copy or two for friends of Dokuro :)
I think there is less feedback for that, simply because it's a newer game and most of the issues with control have been seemingly worked out now? (Can use controller and mouse for the bits that were originally touch screen)
 
BONKERS

BONKERS

Member
It still hasn't been answered at all. What is the deal with the 25FPS and why does this solve the syncing issue when the original NTSC DC game ran at 30FPS????

Is there any particular sales goal that could be met that would make it economically viable to fix this?
 
P

Parsnip

Member
BONKERS said:
It still hasn't been answered at all. What is the deal with the 25FPS and why does this solve the syncing issue when the original NTSC DC game ran at 30FPS????

Is there any particular sales goal that could be met that would make it economically viable to fix this?
Click to expand...

Let it goooooooo.
 
BONKERS

BONKERS

Member
Parsnip said:
Let it goooooooo.
Click to expand...

I won't, because it's a huge flaw. Especially for a game so heavily dependent on story and what was supposed to be "Anniversary Edition" not "Inferior Edition"
It sticks out like a sore thumb.

At the very least an explanation that makes even some kind of remote sense is warranted other than "Lol, it seems that running the game 5FPS slower fixes the problem but fucks up other things...".

Even though the Original game doesn't run at 25FPS. It makes no sense, and either it's a fatal flaw in how the game was ported, something they completely failed to account for during porting, or something in the original code that just simply worked on the Dreamcast and even the ORIGINAL mediocre PC port but broke here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLMEP_3maOo
Look at that, the original PC has no issues with this.

That's just completely inexcusable to me.
How can a decidedly worse version of the game farmed out to people no one has ever heard of get something so fundamentally important right where GungHo the owner of the property couldn't in it's own port?
Excuse me for expecting something to work as was intended to.
I've defended them for a lot of things during this whole process where it originally came out mess. But I won't defend this.
 
F

Falk

that puzzling face
I personally don't see how it could be anything else other than using the PAL version as a base, and at its very core, whatever method (be it manual or automated) that converted all their cutscene event timings to work in both PAL and NTSC versions more than 15 years ago for the original should still be applicable today.

But it's not like I have access to the source code nor do I think I'm going to be able to make a change anymore at this point, so whatevs.

Am I bummed? Kinda.

Would I still tell people to go with this version if they're looking to (re)play Grandia 2? Absolutely.
 
eastx

eastx

Member
Yeah, the only place take those complaints any more is directly to the developer. And they've already invested all that they're likely to invest in this title, so even then they won't do anything about it. The best you could hope for is that they learn not to do a silly thing like use the crap, I mean PAL version when porting games in the future.
 
C

Caspel

Business & Marketing Manager @ GungHo
BONKERS said:
I won't, because it's a huge flaw. Especially for a game so heavily dependent on story and what was supposed to be "Anniversary Edition" not "Inferior Edition"
It sticks out like a sore thumb.

At the very least an explanation that makes even some kind of remote sense is warranted other than "Lol, it seems that running the game 5FPS slower fixes the problem but fucks up other things...".

Even though the Original game doesn't run at 25FPS. It makes no sense, and either it's a fatal flaw in how the game was ported, something they completely failed to account for during porting, or something in the original code that just simply worked on the Dreamcast and even the ORIGINAL mediocre PC port but broke here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLMEP_3maOo
Look at that, the original PC has no issues with this.

That's just completely inexcusable to me.
How can a decidedly worse version of the game farmed out to people no one has ever heard of get something so fundamentally important right where GungHo the owner of the property couldn't in it's own port?
Excuse me for expecting something to work as was intended to.
I've defended them for a lot of things during this whole process where it originally came out mess. But I won't defend this.
Click to expand...

I see a lot of text here, but I think I am missing the exact complaint and bug that you are experiencing. Could you PM me what you are referencing and I will be sure to put it in front of my team.
 
BONKERS

BONKERS

Member
I'm talking about this.
https://steamcommunity.com/app/330390/discussions/0/481115363858911705/
Regarding the event scene sync issue. Most scenes match up pretty closely, but you will notice a bit of audio sync is lost the longer an event plays out. Testing these out after dropping the framerate from 30FPS to 25 FPS, we were able to see that the most notable sync issues (the opening sequence, Elena’s singing in the church) were then “in-sync” like the Dreamcast version that many users have pointed out to us. However, dropping the framerate to 25 FPS ended up throwing off the timing of many of the other scenes, off-set dialogue text box flow, and actually caused the game (non-battles) to run more sluggish than the original Dreamcast version.

Unfortunately it was not possible to cherry pick and have some scenes run at 25 FPS and the rest of the game at 30 FPS. We had to stick with the decision to compromise the audio sync of these scenes to maintain the integrity of the rest of game. We understand for some this may not have been a popular decision, but short of re-writing the code for massive chunks of the game (practically the whole thing), it was the best option we had available.
Click to expand...

It doesn't make sense to me because,
A.) The original NTSC-u/j DC game doesn't run at 25FPS in cutscenes as far as we all know. (You'd think we'd notice?).
B.) The decidedly inferior original PC port doesn't have this problem as I have shown with the above video showing the audio and events correctly syncing up.
Here's another video showing the old version https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RaolOuJ8sT0 correctly synced to the introduction cutscene. But as you get further at around 14:11 you can see that it has the exact same problem this version had until it was fixed. No audio fade outs, the music in the church just cuts off. And I take part of this back actually, because you can see that this video doesn't have the church scene correctly synced either! But the intro is synced... strange. I also found another video showing the same thing. So I apologize.

So, how did this happen and why is it happening given the above?

I don't mean to sound mean spirited or anything(I guess I'm just really passionate about this). I just want to know why.

And obviously, the first few months it hasn't lit sales on fire maybe and that's understandable.
 
F

Falk

that puzzling face
Not that I really want to press the issue, but ultimately it -does- bug me as well. Maybe not to the same extent (which is surprising considering I am clinically OCD and Grandia II is easily one of my top 10 JRPGs)

I completely understand if the porting team has moved on to other projects (GungHo related or not) but as I mentioned in an earlier post, a small part of me wonders why a comparison cannot be made between the original 25fps PAL and 30fps NTSC versions to see how the differences were handled, be it simply different event timing data in cutscenes, or whatever.

But I readily admit that's an assertion that the problem is indeed the port being based off the PAL version, that the process of transplanting would be simple, and that there's enough man-hours dedicated to actually QA the thing since it's such a sweeping change.

GungHo has already said once almost a month ago that it was considered and deemed not the best option. If you say so again, that's honestly fine by me.
 
BONKERS

BONKERS

Member
Well I edited my post. After I looked a bit more, it turns out it seems the old port didn't have the Church scene synced properly either. Which means more scenes are probably out of sync as well.

Where as the PS2/DC are both fine.

What is curious though is that when the port was first released, many mentioned experiencing the same bugs as in the old PC version ;like the Millenia bug; and looking at footage of it, it has the exact same sound issues this port had initially with no fade outs implemented and now event syncing.

Does that not lead you to think that they used part of the code of the old port? Or simply made the same errors in porting?
 
C

Caspel

Business & Marketing Manager @ GungHo
BONKERS said:
Well I edited my post. After I looked a bit more, it turns out it seems the old port didn't have the Church scene synced properly either. Which means more scenes are probably out of sync as well.

Where as the PS2/DC are both fine.

What is curious though is that when the port was first released, many mentioned experiencing the same bugs as in the old PC version ;like the Millenia bug; and looking at footage of it, it has the exact same sound issues this port had initially with no fade outs implemented and now event syncing.

Does that not lead you to think that they used part of the code of the old port? Or simply made the same errors in porting?
Click to expand...

The original Dreamcast code was 25 FPS. We have investigated this in the past and compared both PAL and NTSC and both ran at 25 FPS in the original codes.

And there's no need to imply that we used different code -- we utilized the original Dreamcast iteration.
 
BONKERS

BONKERS

Member
Really? That's bizarre. Wouldn't that refresh on a 60hz CRT look horrible?
30hz on a CRT looks bad enough. (Less so with interlacing but same issues are generally there)
I don't ever really remember it looking THAT bad either.

Every DC Emulator i've seen reports NTSC Copies as running at 30FPS.
Now I feel like testing to see what PAL copies report. (EDIT: Emulators report PAL version running in PAL480i50 at 25FPS.; Running in 480p VGA, it seems to run PAL60 and reports 30FPS and looks a lot smoother than at 25FPS)
I also feel like plugging in the PS2 and DC and looking at both versions to see if it looks like 25FPS.

Edit: Playing the NTSC PS2 version on a 60hzCRT, very clearly when it isn't stuttering while loading data off the disc or slowing down massively. It's running at 30FPS.
Rotating the camera at full speed, there is the normal 30hz on 60hz double image and no stuttering or judder as there would be if it's running at 25FPS
Same goes when the camera rotates quickly around Ryudo at the end of a battle. While it sits at the results screen, rotating slowly. There is no judder from a 25/60 mismatch (Unless they could somehow program some kind of pulldown to make it work???)
 
F

Falk

that puzzling face
Heh, I could have told you the DC version (NTSC at least) rendered at 30fps, since it's the first thing I checked when the port was announced, as I mentioned a few times in the thread.

Still, this is a rather bizarre situation, and it doesn't seem like a simple fix is possible if the only codebase provided is 25FPS event timings. I appreciate that the porting crew has been as transparent and forthcoming regarding these things.
 
BONKERS

BONKERS

Member
I edited my post. But yeah it's strange, I wonder since Ubisoft published it back then did they get the code from them? Would they have only had PAL source code? But that doesn't make sense given in an emulator the PAL game can run at 480p60 at 30FPS.

Maybe the game was coded at 25FPS for performance reasons and then sped up to run at 30FPS somehow?

Thanks for answering Caspel, like I said. Top notch communication.
 
C

Caspel

Business & Marketing Manager @ GungHo
No worries! We know this is an issue for many, but our hands are tied a bit with the source code. Nevertheless, please continue to send feedback to me and the team so we can continue to improve.
 
C

Conezays

Member
Decided to jump back into this having only played it for a couple hours at launch. Enjoying it so far and about 7 hours in. As others have mentioned, the battle system is terrific.
 
C

Caspel

Business & Marketing Manager @ GungHo
GhostTrick said:
I meant upcoming stuff :p
Come on guys Steamdb dont lie ! :p
Grandia and Lunar. Where ? When ??? :p
Click to expand...

Don't believe everything you see on the 'net until you hear it from an actual source with legitimate information. That Steamdb information is many years old and the information that was pulled from the database is incorrect.
 
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