a living on the streets wage maybe
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Help me understand $15 minimum wage
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What does that have to do with anything?
I started a company that employed college kids part-time. I paid them $10/hour. The shifts were 4-6 hours, 2 or 3 nights a week. I had 3 different employees. It was seasonal, and demand varied, and there was just no way to make it a full-time job.
My customers were happy. My employees were happy. They were just looking for some spending cash and didn't want a full-time job anyway. I provided a valid and desirable service and operated within the law. But apparently my business should've been banned?
The notion that every job should be a full-time, high paying job is simply nonsense.
It's suppose to shift the cost of supporting lower income individuals from tax payers (Medicaid, welfare, food stamps, sec 8, etc.) to companies through paying higher wages. Which is a really good idea in and of itself. However, the companies can easily shift this back to the consumer by increasing prices.
Thebeardofknowledge
Banned
TarpitCarnivore
Member
A possible interesting way to look at this or possibly dissect it further: Should minimum wage be equal to a living wage?
I ask this because I've seen this topic discussed with by some with this being a critical point.
I ask this because I've seen this topic discussed with by some with this being a critical point.
I know, this is absolutely a fair argument. I do wonder if the focus on wages this election cycle will have any lasting effects, however.
Perhaps a more nuanced federal mandated increase would be more efficient? Based on costs of living?
The problem is how you define a living wage.
They would deal with it.
Like any labor regulation (or hell, regulations pertaining waste or safety for example), it is a cost of operation they will incur and survive. The claims of economic apocalypse and unemployment are minor, to be honest. Increased income for families in the poverty line will cause them to spend. They will not hold the money and save, they will inject it right back into the economy. Increased business causes hiring to go up again.
If shareholders are displeased that their profits are down, then the leaders of these companies need to manage up.
Pandora012
Member
Basically this. There are some places that don't need that high a minimum wage.
TarpitCarnivore
Member
Well that's kind of the point of the question. Ask 100 people to identify what a living wage means and you'll get a lot of different answers
Vigilant Walrus
Member
The rollout for 15 Dollars is 1 dollar year over a year. If implemented it would first be 15 dollars sometime in 2022 or 2023 so it follows inflation.
Trickle down economics says that removing the minimum wage entirely could solve the unemployment job entirely. If it was 3-4 dollars, you could literally more endless amounts of jobs. More than enough for everyone, and in doing so it would drive up wages by open markets. This is also a libertarian proposal that thinks the capitalism god will adjust everything.
There are many reasons why a living wage is essential. Particularly in America where a historic number of people live paycheck to paycheck, meaning that a disaster or unfortunate luck can have grave consequences that set peoples lives back and discriminally hurt the weakest in society.
When you sign up for a living wage, it's not hopeless idealistic goal, but a desire from an populace that they are willing to collectively pay more for their products so people can make a living wage. If this is enforced at a national level it is something that all people have to deal with.
Came in to post this. Glad to see someone already posted it.
Also, higher minimum wage means people can buy more and companies can sell more, Higher aggregate demand is good for companies.
However we can always find some small problems that can arise from this practice but overall it's a good idea to raise minimum wages
milanbaros
Member?
Can they? If they can easily raise prices with no downside why wouldn't they do it now? Competition on prices is strong in the US, so the idea of them neutralising all benefit of a higher minimum wage with inflation seems unlikely.
we skipped a whole lot of numbers to jump to 15.
Kor of Memory
Member
Here is how I've always seen this:
Cost of living has gone up in almost every area of the country in every aspect. Ranging from the cost of Soda to the cost of a 2 bedroom house on 1/3rd of an acre.
Not to mention interest rates.
Yet, somehow, minimum wage hasn't kept up. It's limping along behind, catching it's breath every so often, but steadily losing distance between cost of living.
Despite this, a lot of very large companies over the past 10+ years have been reporting record profits. And it's no wonder where those profits are coming from. It's natural escalation.
I realize I specified large companies, and that increasing minimum wage would hurt smaller businesses, but I have little to no sympathy for them. Probably because I've seen crazy stupid nepotism go on in most small businesses that make me feel like they deserve a kick in the pants.
(I literally supervised the owners daughter who's sole job was to take pictures of inventory. She got paid $1000 a week for what amounted to roughly 8 hours of work.)
Anyway, point is, if minimum wage doesn't keep up with cost of living, then something has to give. We tried debt, that didn't go over very well, and was incredibly short sighted. Despite the fact that the economy is doing better, people still aren't spending money (because most of them are either saving, or working of crazy amount of loans).
I've never heard a good counter argument to this point, but I would love a healthy back and forth on this, because I genuinely want to know how people think on the other side of the fence.
Cost of living has gone up in almost every area of the country in every aspect. Ranging from the cost of Soda to the cost of a 2 bedroom house on 1/3rd of an acre.
Not to mention interest rates.
Yet, somehow, minimum wage hasn't kept up. It's limping along behind, catching it's breath every so often, but steadily losing distance between cost of living.
Despite this, a lot of very large companies over the past 10+ years have been reporting record profits. And it's no wonder where those profits are coming from. It's natural escalation.
I realize I specified large companies, and that increasing minimum wage would hurt smaller businesses, but I have little to no sympathy for them. Probably because I've seen crazy stupid nepotism go on in most small businesses that make me feel like they deserve a kick in the pants.
(I literally supervised the owners daughter who's sole job was to take pictures of inventory. She got paid $1000 a week for what amounted to roughly 8 hours of work.)
Anyway, point is, if minimum wage doesn't keep up with cost of living, then something has to give. We tried debt, that didn't go over very well, and was incredibly short sighted. Despite the fact that the economy is doing better, people still aren't spending money (because most of them are either saving, or working of crazy amount of loans).
I've never heard a good counter argument to this point, but I would love a healthy back and forth on this, because I genuinely want to know how people think on the other side of the fence.
You don't get it and that is fine. It's not my job to understand it as you clearly lean towards the conservative side of this argument. Why does more money have to go into paychecks and balance out company revenues? People earning $15 an hour now shouldn't get bumped up to $30 an hour because someone that made $7.25 an hour now makes $22.25 an hour. This helps the economy as people on the low end just trying to get by contribute more to the economy. Everyone's whining over poor people not paying income taxes goes out the window when everyone makes $31,200 a year.
*EDIT*
After looking at data in the most expensive cities in the US people making $15 an hour are still struggling to survive but at least the burden is eased a bit. It's not like they suddenly become millionaires after a rage hike. Wal-Mart is the last corporation anyone should have sympathy for.
It's not average Joe's job to reconcile the need for a livable wage over the interests of investors mad they won't receive a supple dividend. Take your business to the UK, China or another country if this "draconian" idea of a livable wage hurts you so much.
DragonSworne
Banned
If you cut down on staff you cut down on productivity and make even less money then just paying people the increased minimum wage.
People who oppose minimum wage increase have no clue about running a business.
People who are making minimum wage right now have to work multiple jobs thus lowering their productivity.
1st Course
Member
Question what will happen to the people already making $15/hr working in higher skilled positions?
Will those people be happy to continue doing their jobs that has higher skill requirements (+ maybe degree) for what is essentially now a minimum wage?
Will those people be happy to continue doing their jobs that has higher skill requirements (+ maybe degree) for what is essentially now a minimum wage?
How do people not understand this. If a sweeping change was applied to raise the minimum wage unemployment would instantly be the highest it's ever been.
Roude Leiw
Member
nevermind.
DragonSworne
Banned
And companies can function with less staff? Companies aren't going to destroy their productivity and revenue just because they have to pay their low wage employees a couple more dollars.
Being against 15 dollar federal minimum wage is not being against increasing minimum wage.
get that false dichotomy out of here.
if you cant even argue for 15 without trying to painting everyone against 15 dollars as greedy conservatives, this thread is worthless.
Show me someone opposed to an increase on the minimum wage.
TarpitCarnivore
Member
$15 for "high skilled positions" is a doubtful thing. Even at $15 an hour that's only ~30K a year. That's not exactly "high skilled" from a salary stand point. That falls right in line with entry level office jobs.
neverknowsbest
Member
I always feel like $15 minimum wage proponents have zero understanding of businesses and the economy and a complete inability to play through scenarios in their head. They act like raising the minimum wage (doubling it in most areas) will have zero effect on employment numbers. But that's obviously not true. If you double the cost of anything, there will be less demand for it (if gas prices rise, you try to drive less). Less demand for workers at $15/hr means more unemployment for low wage workers.
Even if businesses can keep most or all of their employees, a $15/hr employee is different from an $8/hr employee. You expect more out of a $15/hr employee, because you're paying him more. They need to justify their high cost to the business. There's a reason low-skill employees make low wages, because each individual employee contributes a small amount to the business. It's only through the accumulation of skills over time that an employee becomes more valuable and justifies a higher wage.
Forcing employers to treat all new hires as $15/hr employees means that only the employees with the most potential value will be hired, which hurts teenagers, because they haven't had a chance to accumulate any skills, and minorities, because their cultural and economic backgrounds lead to a lower accumulation of pre-employment skills, such as time management and communication.
If you think it through, it's impossible to both argue that minorities are systematically underprivileged due to their backgrounds AND that a $15 minimum wage will help them, because a $15 minimum wage makes it harder for people from different social backgrounds to find entry-level jobs at which they can learn the skills necessary to be better workers. But most people don't think it through, and most people don't really want a $15 minimum wage to help the lowest-skill workers. They want it to help themselves.
Even if businesses can keep most or all of their employees, a $15/hr employee is different from an $8/hr employee. You expect more out of a $15/hr employee, because you're paying him more. They need to justify their high cost to the business. There's a reason low-skill employees make low wages, because each individual employee contributes a small amount to the business. It's only through the accumulation of skills over time that an employee becomes more valuable and justifies a higher wage.
Forcing employers to treat all new hires as $15/hr employees means that only the employees with the most potential value will be hired, which hurts teenagers, because they haven't had a chance to accumulate any skills, and minorities, because their cultural and economic backgrounds lead to a lower accumulation of pre-employment skills, such as time management and communication.
If you think it through, it's impossible to both argue that minorities are systematically underprivileged due to their backgrounds AND that a $15 minimum wage will help them, because a $15 minimum wage makes it harder for people from different social backgrounds to find entry-level jobs at which they can learn the skills necessary to be better workers. But most people don't think it through, and most people don't really want a $15 minimum wage to help the lowest-skill workers. They want it to help themselves.
Probably? That's not really the point, though.
Historically, the lower the unemployment rates, the higher the demand for workers and thus higher wages for all.
Increasing unemployment by as much as this mandate could is at least worth considering.
The problem with leaving it as a state issue is you have states like Oklahoma, where our wonderful governor signed a bill into law last year that banned any minimum wage increases. If it was purely left to the state governments, the vast majority of GOP-run states would probably outright abolish minimum wage requirements or severely limit them.
MiketheBSG
Member
A significant problem I have with higher minimum wage is that they would put certain unskilled jobs or jobs that don't require a college education at the same level of pay as skilled jobs or jobs with a college education. So then they would have to adjust skilled/college educated jobs at a higher pay to compensate for the $15 minimum wage. This would be a huge economical problem.
Because "Fight for $15" has an advertising campaign behind it.
You can't fix people voting for very dumb representation, unfortunately.
Yo, I support the increase of minimum wage, it should be like $10-$12 or something on the national level. $15 is just too much outside the like of urban areas
Minimum wage hikes have little to no effect on unemployment:
https://www.dol.gov/featured/minimum-wage/mythbuster
But this myth will be with us until the day we die. Same as how business owners "create" jobs, and yknow, not the laborer/consumers.
DragonSworne
Banned
15 follar minimum wage is what the min wage should/would have been if we never stopped increasing it.
So yes, you are against increasing min wage if you are against 15 dollar min wage, or atleast against increasing it some of the time for whatever reason.
Show me the math that 15 dollar UNIVERSAL (AKA FEDERAL) minimum wage is what we would have arrived at for the entire country.
An absolutely valid point, and one that I addressed earlier.
The quoted message is literally the argument used to instate the original minimum wage...
California's minimum wage goes up to $15 on January 1, 2017.
California's cost of living is the same as the rest of the country?
Pagusas
Elden Member
One thing I always wondered about, people say that by increasing to a $15 minimum wage we'd see productivity increases. Where in the world do people get that idea from? If a person is lazy and working the minimum wage, they are still going to be lazy working the new minimum wage. They could not get paid any less than what they are, they still have no incentive to work harder (other than of course to excape a minimum wage lifestyle, but it seems many people dont actually think that way).
DeathoftheEndless
Crashing this plane... with no survivors!
I was under the impression that the $15/hour rate was only for high cost of living areas and the increases everywhere else would scale proportionately. A universal $15 minimum would be disastrous without a basic income.
bigmit3737
Member
People on the top are making too money in comparison to the lower level positions.
Some CEO's of the oil industry are making more money despite these companies struggling with losses and have to layoff people. So the increase in minimum wage would come from there.
This would also bolster the economy as people in the lower income bracket tend to spend more.
Wage discrepancy is the problem IMO.
Some CEO's of the oil industry are making more money despite these companies struggling with losses and have to layoff people. So the increase in minimum wage would come from there.
This would also bolster the economy as people in the lower income bracket tend to spend more.
Wage discrepancy is the problem IMO.
We get it. People should not be able to afford housing and food if they are 'lazy". Fuck em, right?
teruterubozu
Member
2022. It's all incremental bump ups until then.
TheChewyWaffles
Member
By whom? What does "society" mean? You do understand that cost of living varies WILDLY, geographically, right?
CEO pay is crazy out of wack with the rest of the labour force. There's no reason there needs to be people making millions in the executive class while the general work force suffers. By instituting a high minimum wage, it forces companies to restructure their wage system to be more fair -just kidding, they fire people and blame the government for "making them" despite maintaining grossly inflated earnings for the executives.
It also puts a lot of stress on everyone outside that executive class in terms of the tax system. While the rich can invest heavily and support themselves off capital gains and pay for tax lawyers and shelters, the average middle-class person has to pay into the public services which help those people living below the poverty line.
A higher minimum wage should lower (or reallocate) the taxes, and raise the pay for everyone but the 1%.
It also puts a lot of stress on everyone outside that executive class in terms of the tax system. While the rich can invest heavily and support themselves off capital gains and pay for tax lawyers and shelters, the average middle-class person has to pay into the public services which help those people living below the poverty line.
A higher minimum wage should lower (or reallocate) the taxes, and raise the pay for everyone but the 1%.
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