Is this because of the power difference, or because they didn't have PowerPC support for frostbite?
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How much more powerful is the Switch vs Wii U?
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Is this because of the power difference, or because they didn't have PowerPC support for frostbite?
OrangeGrayBlue
Member
I think Snake Pass is a good example of a game not using handheld mode as a common denominator. The game wasn't really designed with switch in mind at all, and that's apparent because it runs at something like 648p (may be off, but it's sub-720) in handheld mode. Obviously they didn't say "let's optimize this for handheld and then try to work our way up." It seems to have done just the opposite, actually. They worked their way down from the PC build, and got the most they could get out of the hardware docked and then undocked (and did really well overall).
frankie_baby
Member
So far Zelda is the exception rather than the rule
Gotdatmoney
Member
Feature set on the Switch is much closer to the PS4/X1. WiiU didn't have a modern feature set. That said I remember it being stated that they got Frostbite running on WiiU and weren't happy with the results.
I'm not commenting on the 4x thing, but BOTW (and alot of the first year games) were developed for Wii U and then ported across. Think it's fair to say some of these games won't be pushing the switch.
frankie_baby
Member
More due to EA politics meaning they didnt bother
LordKasual
Banned
What???? There's barely any difference. Both the WiiU and docked Switch version suffer the same magnitude of frame rate issues. If that's what you're referring to when you say "runs like shit" than the Switch version runs like shit as well.
Outside of resolution and a few very minute details, i'd say there's barely even a difference between Switch and WiiU BotW. The resolution bump is the most significant thing, but the most stable version of the game is undocked and thus pretty much identical to the WiiU version visually. I don't know what you're talking about here, the only one exaggerating anything is you lol.
Anyway, as always in Nintendo threads, we're going to need to define what a "decent power increase" even is. The Switch can't even compete with the Xbox One, a console that released 4 years ago. The Switch is a decent upgrade to the WiiU, which was quite weak to begin with. But in a broader scope, no, it's not a very big increase at all.
At least the Switch is at a level of horsepower where its games stop looking straight-up outdated...but it's still going to be missing any ports of console games that make even slight use of modern horsepower. We're unlikely to see many games that draw gaze without the developers resorting to tailored artstyles like Mario Odyssey or BotW.
IIRC, the patches improved performance on Switch to a point where it is notable better on Wii U.
Does anyone even know for sure whether Breath of the Wild is the best the Switch could deal with, or a by product of development starting on the Wii U?
I guess my point is that using specific games doesn't always tell the whole story. Look at NBA playgrounds on Switch compared to the PS4 version. The Switch version doesn't have the same player shadows and lighting.
Yes we know for a fact that the Switch isn't as powerful as the PS4, that's impossible though in that form factor. But surely it can handle damn shadows on 4 player models lol.
Judging the Switch against the Wii U in terms of the way games look then there doesn't seem to be much difference. Mario Kart 8 Deluxe certainly doesn't look much different to the Wii U version. Is that down to a lack of power difference, or the developers? More likely developers.
Time will tell.....
I guess my point is that using specific games doesn't always tell the whole story. Look at NBA playgrounds on Switch compared to the PS4 version. The Switch version doesn't have the same player shadows and lighting.
Yes we know for a fact that the Switch isn't as powerful as the PS4, that's impossible though in that form factor. But surely it can handle damn shadows on 4 player models lol.
Judging the Switch against the Wii U in terms of the way games look then there doesn't seem to be much difference. Mario Kart 8 Deluxe certainly doesn't look much different to the Wii U version. Is that down to a lack of power difference, or the developers? More likely developers.
Time will tell.....
TLZ
Banned
Gotdatmoney
Member
Uh no they don't. I have both. Docked Switch runs significantly better than WiiU. Have you played them both?
They are basically the same game apart from resolution as there is no asset differences. And yes the undocked version runs the best. But no the docked performance is not the same as the WiiU post patch. Watch the Digital Foundry video.
Well the thread is about comparing Switch to WiiU so. . .
And yeah mobile tech has not caught up with a box you plug in the wall. We wont be at portable X1 with good battery life level visuals for another 5+ years minimum. But the system is an upgrade over the WiiU in basically every way.
Are yall serious? You are actually trying to say BOTW runs better on WiiU than portable mode on Switch? Have you been to Kakiriko village on both of these versions?
I am in fucking awe here.
The Switch version does hold a more consistent framerate. That is a fact.
However the differences between the Switch and Wii U version are not massive the way some people have implied.
For me personally, comparing images of Breath of the Wild on the Wii U and Switch is like comparing a game on PS4 and Xbox One, as opposed to comparing a PS3 and PS4 game.
TLZ
Banned
Dude. You said the difference is massive between undocked switch vs Wii u. You're exaggerating.
LordKasual
Banned
I primarily play BotW undocked, and i watched a friend play for hours on WiiU. Most of his FPS issues were with fire propagation and large VFX like shock arrows or something.
It would dip pretty low, but the way he describes it makes it sound like the game was just chugging or something. It wasn't.
In the Switch's case, the story will be told with a game like Metroid Prime 4, which has an art style that will make better use of modern lighting techniques to make its atmosphere pop. (at least, if it's anything like Prime 1-3.)
No, Breath of the Wild isn't a great example of the Switch's high-end horsepower because it's basically a WiiU game. There's nothing the Switch version does that the WiiU one can't, and the WiiU was basically a last-gen console.
Mario Odyssey will be a better showcase than BotW, since its likely built from the ground up for Switch.
But i am not expecting to be blown away at all, the Switch is too far behind the current gen to expect that.
OrangeGrayBlue
Member
I'm getting the sense from some of your statements (like BotW having equal frame rate issues on switch... it's not even close, docked or not) and by your statement that the Switch "Can't even compete with x1", despite the Switch barely being larger than a smartphone and weighing less than one pound while an x1 weighs over 6 pounds, that you don't actually own a switch. But if you do have one, I'd encourage detaching the joy-cons and placing the tablet itself beside/on top of a console for a second just to appreciate the size difference. Obviously something 1/8 the size of the x1 is not going to match it in power, even if it released 3 years and a few months later. Nonetheless, the Switch has about 1/3 the capability of an x1 which is about as powerful as you could expect a device its size to be.
Edit- here's a video detailing the pretty obvious gap in frame rate performance:
https://youtu.be/w6NkNgI1ssw
It's probably GPU features. Switch is able to render graphics in the same way a PS4 or Xbox One does. It's slower at that, but the developer can find a resolution and quality setting to offset that lack of speed.
To give a metric: WiiU GPU: 2008 level, Switch: 2014
TwilightPrincess
Member
Perhaps it could be 1080p if it wasn't a Wii U port. Zelda is built for Wii U and pushes the system over it's weight, probably coded deep into the Wii Us metal so it can run it @25fps. Also it was a launch game for Switch and had to be ready. And 900p plus better framerate isn't that bad, i have both versions, the Switch version is superior without a doubt.
Shinen did rewrite the code for Fast Racing and it doesn't only double resolution, it looks better in all aspects with more effects and a more stable framerate.
Don't think it's 4x in every case of hardwareuse, but in some it probably is around 3-4x, if used correct.
Splatoon 2 is 900p-1080p with overall better performance and better graphics (better shadows, better textures, more effects).
Arms is 1080p/60fps
Lego City is graphically closer to the PS4 version than the Wii U version.
Dosn't really matter anyway if it's 2,5x or 3,5x Wii U, it has more Oomph and is more modern.
Gotdatmoney
Member
Yeah I played 140 hours of the WiiU version and another 50 hours of the Switch version. The performance difference is very big. This isn't an exageration. Did some of you guys play this game from start to finish on WiiU. It's playable, it wasn't a huge damper on a great game but it absolutely runs like shit.
No not really. It is a big difference.
Oh, you watched a friend play it 🙄
The open fields in the WiiU version are pretty decent but forrested areas and villages and rain effects bring the system to its knees. The undocked Switch performance is way better. It's hard for me to actually take anyone serious who cant notice the improvement probably because I actually played the game to completion on the WiiU.
lwilliams3
Member
Using Zelda, a launch game that was simultaneously released for the Wii U, as a solid metric of Switch's power is faulty. Aside from that, the game does notably run better on the Switch undocked and docked, especially after the patches.
With the Switch's form factor, it is silly to compare it to the XB1 the way you did. It will be a few more years before any company can cram as much raw power at that level at a feasible price and a tolerable battery life.
In terms of tech, it should be compared more to the PSVita, which had great power for a portable at its time. It has been 5 years since its release, and the undocked Switch is more than a generation ahead of it.
True although I've not been too impressed by what I've seen from a visual perspective. Don't get me wrong I wasn't expecting anything more than what I've seen so far, and the crappy textures etc don't take anything away from my enjoyment when I'm playing Mario Kart or something but I'm kinda hoping to see something that looks good on the Switch.
I'm not either. But I think it's possible to have something that looks decent. The Switch by all accounts is as powerful as a PS3 right? I'd be damn impressed having the likes of Uncharted 2, Last of US, God of War, Motorstorm etc on a handheld.
I really wish Sony would announce a handheld that had access to the PS4 library. Maybe in a couple of years it might be possible.
I've been dying to get a handheld with proper AAA games on the go. The vita and PSP never scratched that itch, the AAA games felt watered down and full of compromise. The Switch seems to be capable, but the sad reality is we'll probably never see it.
The argument was always that no one wants to play big games on the go, but I personally think there's a market there that's deeper than shallow pick up and play games....
OrangeGrayBlue
Member
The Wii U was already more powerful than the PS3/360, and the Switch is around 3x as capable as the Wii U, so there's no reason the Switch shouldn't be able to run just about every PS3 game at 1080p/60.
Huge Succeeded
Banned
BOTW was developed on Switch alongside Wii U when the decision to move the game to Switch was made halfway through development. It's not like the game was finished for Wii U and then ported over to Switch as has been suggested all over this forum for months now.
I own the game on Switch, my brother owns it on Wii U, and we played through the game together.
You're very wrong about Switch being in the same ballpark as the Wii U version, framerate-wise. I know I've pointed this out to you before.
lol, that's a really reductive description of the Wii U version's framerate issues. You're telling me you didn't catch all of the other, easily-replicated instances of huge framerate drops? Like the ones in and around every single town, village, and stable?
No. BoTW's Switch performance is pretty significantly improved over Wii U's when undocked. There's noticeably fewer instances of framerate drops undocked than docked, so I'm not sure where you or anyone else got that idea from.
A like framerate difference between two versions of any other game would be considered pretty huge. The Switch version holds a far more consistent framerate. The Wii U version shits the bed constantly.
Of course, framerate is the only really noticeable difference between the two versions, so I get your point.
except yes
That's impressive to me for a portable machine. Still baffles me when people say the switch is underpowered. It's a glorified tablet with hdmi out. It's impossible to get PS4 power in a device that size, with suitable cooling and battery life.
I'm desperate for Third Parties to get on board properly. Hopefully the likes of Skyrim will sell well so that other developers (and more importantly Publishers) start taking notice.
No publisher is going to turn down a source of revenue. If they feel they can sell games on a platform then they'll fund and publish games.....
I'd love it if Rockstar released GTA V for example. Damn, playing that in Handheld mode, oh and Dark Souls Trilogy would be good too....
Skittzo0413
Member
The Tegra X1 was first used in a product in 2015, was it not? Wouldn't that make the Switch 2015 level rather than 2014?
Eh, the x8750 atom cpu is more than a match for the jaguars.
I think it's a bit of stretch, like best case scenario to take full advantage of the hardware, but at the same time we've basically only seen WiiU games running on the Switch from Nintendo outside of ARMS. I do think the system will have a tougher time with open world games though given the configuration, but I imagine stuff like MP4 or FE built from the ground up will better take advantage of the system.
OrangeGrayBlue
Member
Yeah, I was just looking up the weight of the system and, with joy-cons detached, the Switch weighs 0.65 pounds. The Xbox One S weighs 6.4 pounds. So it's essentially 1/10 the size of the revised, slimmed down X1 but gets around 1/3, and some would argue closer to 1/2, of the power output. Considering that we're comparing a handheld to dedicated home consoles here, the Switch is an impressive system, even if the PS4 and X1 have a couple years on them by now.
Games like Snake Pass already prove that you can take a game that pushes a lot of effects and high resolution on the PS4 Pro and scale it down to the switch, so it seems like the capability is there in a lot of instances. It's just a question of whether or not devs will take the effort. It's nothing like the Wii/PS3/360 gen where you'd essentially have to design a completely different game for the Wii to make it work. This time around, cut the 1080p resolution to 720p and you might have your game running on switch. If not, tone down some effects and then you will. It's not an insurmountable task like before.
It is considering that WiiU titles have to be downgraded and don't hold fps up to same degee switch titles are already showing.
Both Mario kart and shinnen racer perform better with 3 or more players and one them upped their res vs being on WiiU at 720p.
Might not qualify for you but the metrics can't be refuted. Like cube devs have decent options to work with gotta wield them or meager gains as Zelda has shown us
Gotdatmoney
Member
Breath of the Wild's performance and resolution are absolutely disappointing on Switch given it's a WiiU game but some of you flat out did not play this game on both systems. Some of what I'm reading here isn't even misunderstandings, it's flatout untrue.
butman
Member
It look just like Mario Kart 8 but open world-ish.
LordKasual
Banned
It's a bit funny to hear people actively complain about the WiiU version of BotW when just a few months ago I was getting angry ass quotes for even bringing up its framerate issues in the first place lol
I don't see how me not owning a Switch would make any of those observations any different or less valid, the specs of the console are static either way. I just don't only own a Switch.
Switch is pretty cool for what it is....but that's only on its own merits. I'd be lying if i said i didn't pretty much only justify my Switch purchase for the 1st party Nintendo titles, feels bad to admit it, but it's true. But assuming I didn't??? The lack of horsepower relative to everything else on the market does become an issue, because where are the rest of the games going to come from???
I don't personally see the point in crunching the Switch's numbers in an environment confined only to itself. People are going to want 3rd party games, and 3rd party developers are under no obligation to develop for weak hardware. So in that sense, no, the Switch really isn't going to feel that much more powerful than the WiiU. It's going to lose ports for all of the exact same reasons. Now, I don't believe it's a bad console, which is what i assume people just kneejerk default to when I point out how weak it is. There is alot of value in its portability. But...it is a weak console. I don't know how else to put it really.
Now, as a portable, absolutely, the Switch is indeed powerful...but in reality, that's only going to be taken advantage of if developers give the console the same kind of love that the PSP/3DS received. And seeing as Nintendo is reluctant to actually call the damn thing a portable...time is just going to have to tell on that one. Everyone is talking about BotW, but Zelda isn't even a Switch exclusive.
I don't see how me not owning a Switch would make any of those observations any different or less valid, the specs of the console are static either way. I just don't only own a Switch.
Switch is pretty cool for what it is....but that's only on its own merits. I'd be lying if i said i didn't pretty much only justify my Switch purchase for the 1st party Nintendo titles, feels bad to admit it, but it's true. But assuming I didn't??? The lack of horsepower relative to everything else on the market does become an issue, because where are the rest of the games going to come from???
I don't personally see the point in crunching the Switch's numbers in an environment confined only to itself. People are going to want 3rd party games, and 3rd party developers are under no obligation to develop for weak hardware. So in that sense, no, the Switch really isn't going to feel that much more powerful than the WiiU. It's going to lose ports for all of the exact same reasons. Now, I don't believe it's a bad console, which is what i assume people just kneejerk default to when I point out how weak it is. There is alot of value in its portability. But...it is a weak console. I don't know how else to put it really.
Now, as a portable, absolutely, the Switch is indeed powerful...but in reality, that's only going to be taken advantage of if developers give the console the same kind of love that the PSP/3DS received. And seeing as Nintendo is reluctant to actually call the damn thing a portable...time is just going to have to tell on that one. Everyone is talking about BotW, but Zelda isn't even a Switch exclusive.
It wasn't optimized and recently patches made fps stable.
It's being a WiiU game doesn't excuse from doing process to make performance better that most games have show help a ton when it's done right. Be it the old engine they use and the total fact they arent exploiting vulkan like id software shows me we have gains to be made as plenty of new titles are showing.
It's a port with meager optimization. Doesn't hold a stick to odyssey or arms and this is features, texturing or lighting.
I am a switch owner, I love my Switch so when I say this it's not me criticising the Switch. The Switch is a tablet like device that has phenomenal performance for what it is.
Buy y'all need to be real. The Switch is probably not going to get any triple A console ports from this gen. If we do they will be heavily gimped, barely recognisable and will be criticised for it, primarily by us.
Switch is roughly twice as powerful as a WiiU, which in practical terms will mean more games running at 1080p and 60FPS at first,and then games with slightly better graphics later on. Like the difference between dreamcast and ps2.
That means lots of indie ports, last gen ports, retro ports, and hopefully lots of games where actually Switch is the primary platform.
That's great! We don't need to pretend it's anywhere near approaching current gen performance.
Buy y'all need to be real. The Switch is probably not going to get any triple A console ports from this gen. If we do they will be heavily gimped, barely recognisable and will be criticised for it, primarily by us.
Switch is roughly twice as powerful as a WiiU, which in practical terms will mean more games running at 1080p and 60FPS at first,and then games with slightly better graphics later on. Like the difference between dreamcast and ps2.
That means lots of indie ports, last gen ports, retro ports, and hopefully lots of games where actually Switch is the primary platform.
That's great! We don't need to pretend it's anywhere near approaching current gen performance.
Skittzo0413
Member
The Wii got COD games downgraded from the 360 and PS3. The gap between those and the Wii was far, far, FAR higher than the gap between the Switch and XB1/PS4, not only in raw power but also in feature set. We will most certainly see some AAA ports on the Switch, though likely not many and obviously not all of them. I mean, this year we're getting FIFA18 and NBA2k18 seemingly day and date with the other consoles, though I guess it's debatable if those are AAA or not.
But next year at least if the Switch continues selling like it is (and all signs point to that being the case) then we will most certainly see games like COD and probably AC (if there is another next year) ported. They'll definitely be downgraded but the difference will be nowhere near the difference between Wii and 360/PS3 ports.
And the COD ports in addition to being one of only a couple of examples that you guys cite again and again, were heavily gimped and criticised.
Also the gap is not far smaller. Don't kid yourself, maybe it's not quite as wide but the gulf between generations is still far too big to get the ports you're looking for. It's just not happening. Get real so you won't be disappointed.
Edit: and Fifa is based on the last gen version, not this gen. Sports games to be fair are games I could see coming to Switch as a current gen port.
Indies and some are already have better sales on switch than on steam. EA likes switch compared to WiiU and considering the fifa port situation alone there's plenty to be done on switch vs WiiU/PS3/360 level architectures. We have snake pass and rocket league optimized will show the system has the good. The amount of developers on horsepower complaints can literally be counted on one hand with 3 fingers left. Go ahead check post history I've commented in those threads as well.
Switch already has a better port situation a few months in to existence than WiiU ever enjoyed before or after it's launch. Switch has plenty of devs who aren't interested in what AAA publishers are pumping out. Switch is already enjoying things like UE4 support which basically every gen before for a 3d nintendo console was a joke. EA literally customized an engine, which most didn't expect at all to get shit done. It's the 5th strongest console of all time out of how many? Not saying the system can be optimized to do anthem yet it's far cry from any of the Wii situations.
Vulkan based apis own older apis due to much better performance without the need to optimize so much and none of the overhead and have proper multithreading to cpu to gpu not a single other nintendo console could offer this. Id software made a vulkan patch in a few months compared to nearly years worth of efforts done on older gpu api tech when even see these type of patches show up. Devs already are porting titles that are having times equal to gc port efforts or quicker. This entire passage is rubbish and asks us to ignore the reality of what is going on for the mere culture conjecture of devs being lazy as usual when for the first fucking time in any 3d console generation of nintedo they are doing more then they have ever done to the same point with other systems.
PSP was attempting to chase the PS3 and did it meagerly. The switch chasing the current HD giants and much closer at higher resolution and more stable fps. Comparing 3ds to switch is a joke as well one of these things was chasing the dolphin/cube/wii architecture the other literally for once is a nintendo handheld that can compete with high watt machines in some titles with decent standardization.
For someone who didn't want to crunch numbers or features you certainly weighed in a lot and managed to get it wrong or complete misrepresent the reality of what is going on.
Gotdatmoney
Member
Sure but the game never was comparable from wiiu to undocked switch even pre patch. That never was a thing.
I agree with you here.
They were? The best version of the games for me. Full 1 to 1 campaign and solid online with superior control method.
Skittzo0413
Member
They were graphically downgraded but that didn't stop them from selling. And I never said the Switch ports would compare to the PS4 versions, in fact I said they'd obviously be downgraded. So I'm not sure why that matters.
And yes, the gap is far, far smaller. Most estimates put the PS4 about 5x ahead of the Switch at most, whereas the Wii was closer to 20x weaker than the PS3 and 360 (in different ways for each).
As for FIFA, that is flat out incorrect. That was the rumor for a while but we've seen the actual game listing by EA and it's a 100% custom version that's more comparable to the PS4/XB1 versions than the PS3/360 versions, though lacking the Journey mode of the latter.
I think the custom talk is bullshit, or rather a technicality.
A modified ignite engine is technically "custom". There's no way I believe EA spent and time and resources designing a specific engine for the Switch from the ground up. An EA representative actually said that in an interview but I don't believe him.
If Fifa 18 sells well it'll get a "custom" version of Frostbite for 19 lol
I'm not agreeing with that assertion I'm adding on to why it's false.
Even pre patches there are noticeable fidelity and size differences from Wii Botw to Switch Botw docked or undocked.
Even more so as I mentioned nintendo basically did no optimization.
We are talking an engine they have used since N64 retrofitted for Cube/Wii/WiiU. None of these systems had a shader model nor low level api that can perform like vulkan. It's insane to suggest that the game is taking advantage of the system. It's proof it can brute moderately older titles considering WiiU is R700 based GPU vs a Nvdia Maxwell. Again peoplecan try to suggest nintendo are wizards but they have no experience in exploiting the api or architecture they moved on to. BOTW discussions should be laughed at for these factors alone. I will say this at least it's not a GTA4 and GTA5 on the same pc kind of discussion that is shitty porting scanerio to say the least.
I don't see you knocking unreal engine or how the original quake engine has it's roots in a lot of modern titles still. There's a reason we say ground up and no one has suggested or implied that.
I would rather a customized effort of something vs any of EA previous nintendo efforts sans most wanted WiiU.
I think I read somewhere that the Switch is somewhere in between a Wii U and Xbox One in terms of power. Considering that games were still being made for Xbox 360/PS3 1-2 years into this current gen, I was hopeful we would see more AAA 3rd party games being released on the Switch.
I'm aware there is no universal target. But there is a maximum output resolution for docked vs portable. I was trying to make it clear for someone else how the principle works in a hypothetical situation when both max output resolutions were targeted.µ
It's common sense. BotW is a title built ground up for the WiiU, by the most talented Nintendo in-house teams, after years of experience with not only the WiiU, but also the same CPU architecture since the GCN days.
The Switch version is based on that version, ported in a fraction of the WiiU dev time, while the hardware itself is still fairly unknown even to Nintendo's own dev teams. Had they built BotW ground up for the Switch in 3 years, i'm sure everybody would see how massive the difference would actually be.
lwilliams3
Member
What you said about Zelda was factually wrong and outdated, so other posters was able to call you out about for not owning one and/or not doing some research. Just be more careful on what you're claiming.
As for the other things you said, it will be interesting to see how third party publishers will treat the Switch in future development since it isn't another Wii U, and is doing significantly better than the 3DS during the first few months in the West. Time will tell if we will see AAA ports from the other systems.
I'm not against games coming to the switch. The more the better. I'd be over the moon with a port of GTA V, and I'll be buying Fifa 18. Wish Pes was coming too. Infact I want more and more ports.
My issue was only against the talk of Fifa 18 being a custom built engine. EA are just trying to talk it up, that's normal I get it.
But if the game sells well, watch how quickly they get Journey on there and the Switch get's a "custom" version of Frostbite.
Do you think Journey is only possible on Frostbite too? Because for me personally that's more EA bullshit.
Jaded Alyx
Member
FIFA 18 on Switch is based on the Ignite engine PS4/XBO versions, with added effects.
No it's not.
It's a custom engine built specifically to take advantage of the Switch hardware.
"The engine we've used on the Switch just wouldn't be possible anywhere else"
lol
No but seriously, of course that's what it is. I can't believe some people on NeoGaf eat up the PR talk....
Gotdatmoney
Member
Hey you watched your friend play the WiiU version so you know everything anyway . . . Lmao. As I said, game is playable from start to finish, it didn't damper my enjoyment at all "but" it runs like shit.
Jaded Alyx
Member
Custom engine, but BASED on those prior versions. It takes after the Ignite versions and has some features found in the Frostbite versions. It is definitely not based on the last gen versions as the other person said.