You've never been to a convention? I started using Twitter after I realized how useful it was during PAX.
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"How the hell does *that* cost $X to make???" (Giant Bomb and Skullgirls)
- Thread starter dLMN8R
- Start date
You've never been to a convention? I started using Twitter after I realized how useful it was during PAX.
Hey, you should hire Fudgepuppy - he's Swedish and absolutely brimming with ideas.
Can't wait for his revolutionary Perfect Animation Button technology to come into fruition, you guys would be saved a lot of cash
JakkuFurosu
Member
Can't wait for his revolutionary Perfect Animation Button technology to come into fruition, you guys would be saved a lot of cash
flawless
I was going to say that this is not really fair, because nobody would work on high quality stuff for 20k a year, you probably did that because you saw it as some kind of stepping stone, not as a decent job.
But then I figured that the whole problem of this thread is probably not really that people are shocked about the costs of normal game development (although I guess that too), but that the devs went to kickstarter (/ indiegogo). In many people's eyes you resort to crowdfunding when you can't find an investor that thinks it's a good investment (and pay you a decent living). Therefore they more or less expect the devs in a crowdfunding project to make a paltry living, because they do it even though it may not be a good business idea.
That crowdfunding can be a way to remain independent without going the investor route is probably something that people still need to get accustomed to.
Now imagine that you're not even working on a decent project. Pretend you're working on let's say, Littlest Pet Shop.
...
Seriously though, there are a ton of posts in this thread that should be required reading for anyone who has any sort of interest in the business aspect of the games industry. Great job guys.
Oh don't even get me started on cash in projects. I've done a lot of those, but I always look at it from this view: someone, somewhere likes games like these perhaps my little niece or the son of a friend. And even though it won't be my favorite project I have worked on I am damn sure going to make it a fun game.
Sometimes people, even in the industry forget about this. And it is hard to keep up your motivation if you are constantly making games you don't like to play but you just pull yourself through it.
Yeah I do think it has its merit for business, although I've been able to get by with using business cards and e-mail (scientific game conventions are usually a lot smaller than consumer ones though), I'll probably register somewhere down the line. However I don't know how it is in the states, but over here twitter is omnipresent when it comes to 'showing what the general public thinks'. And with general public I really mean the rabble. As with everything bad in life it's the intelligent that are full of doubt and the stupid cocksure, and Twitter's 140 character limit really favors the cocksure without any nuance in thinking. Anyway kind of offtopic, I only mentioned it because some guy thought that if some other nobody thought my post was shit then this was an actual indication of the quality.
Howard Alan Treesong
Member
Last week, I left the game industry after 9+ years full-time (and several more freelance). Ravidrath told me I was making a terrible decision and tried to convince me to stay.
Then he made this thread.
WHICH IS IT, RAVI?!
Then he made this thread.
WHICH IS IT, RAVI?!
RyougaSaotome
Member
As shitty as this thread has been at times, it's also been fucking amazing, with Ravi and so many more making awesome posts.
Awful thread turns into awesome thread. Love you guys.
Awful thread turns into awesome thread. Love you guys.
Of course it's not a fair comparison, which is why I said as much. I certanly wouldn't be able to pay that little if I were to hire anyone. But that's the beauty of working alone. I just need to afford to pay my bills and buy food, and hopefully get lots of money once the games are released.
You never played Skullgirls. Every single character has their beginning and ending dialogue specifically tailored for each (character). I'm not talking about a random collection of lines being stated but phrases that is supposed to clue you in on how these characters relate to each other. Thus giving you a level of story telling not seen in any fighting game except for Blaz Blue games.
During the actual gameplay each character has a ton of dialogue that adds a great deal of personality to them. Aside from Painwheel noone grunts and wheezes and with Painwheel most of her grunts are just words obscured by her rage and torment.
On top of all this the team carefully crafted the dialogue so there is a call and response action to their words. You don't have characters shouting words so haphazardly you get dialogue interaction where people try to shout over each other. Instead phrases get pushed around so it looks like the characters are actually talking to each other while fighting.
rohlfinator
Member
Yup. This thread is a perfect microcosm of the best and worst GAF has to offer.
Cheers to Lab Zero and the insightful posters in the thread. I'm not a fighting game guy, but reading this stuff has given me a new appreciation for the genre and how much craft really goes into it.
AlphaTwo00
Member
Good to know. Were you developing everything by yourself only?
Warm Machine
Member
Just bought Skullgirls on XBLA because of this thread.
This thread has been highly educational, thanks to everyone who shed light on how game development actually works
I have a very light interest on fighting games but after this thread and checking SG's page now I'm really interested in this game (at first the focus on tournament play scared me, but it seems newcomers like me won't be left behind) will get it on PC if I haven't bought a PS3 by then. Really liked the animation quality, definitely a selling point for me
I have a very light interest on fighting games but after this thread and checking SG's page now I'm really interested in this game (at first the focus on tournament play scared me, but it seems newcomers like me won't be left behind) will get it on PC if I haven't bought a PS3 by then. Really liked the animation quality, definitely a selling point for me
I don't think I tried to convince you to stay, I was just sad to see One Of the Good Ones leave. Especially for... that.
Thanks a ton, man.
...Now, I have to apologize for the 360 version's load times and the fact that the patch has been held up by MS for more than 3 months at this point. :\
DassoBrother
Member
I'm thinking of doing the same once I'll have a chance to play. I remember seeing coverage for it on Giantbomb and it looked quite polished. Idea of getting free DLC characters at some point down the line sounds appealing as well.
Iamwolfthing
Member
I will be doing the same once it's out on PC.
yeah. I'm coming around on it too.
Yes, except for music, which my brother did for free.
Also on the topic of sound; I was tempted to mention this a few pages back, but it probably would have seemed like trolling. I recorded some soundeffects with a 20$ headset mic (most sound effects are generated with some basic freeware software though).
I'll be the first to admit that the sound in the game is awful, but I've only really seen a few people comment on it, and most seem to find it adequate, so I doubt it's hurt the reviews or the sales that much. It wouldn't really have made sense for me to spend a bunch of money to outsource to a proper sound studio when I did everything else. If'd pay at a professional rate that would probably cost at least as much money as a month of my own work, and I just don't prioritise sound that high; it's not as if I'm an expert on all the other areas either, so I did it myself.
Parallax Scroll
Banned
And let's be real, Skullgirls has great sound effects.
Can't wait for his revolutionary Perfect Animation Button technology to come into fruition, you guys would be saved a lot of cash
LOL
Warm Machine
Member
Out of curiosity, Is it a C# XNA game?
This is the only thread on GAF I found it worth it to read every post. The pure educational value of it all is astounding.
I'm highly appreciative, even of the posts that pissed me (and a lot of others) off, because without them we wouldn't have seen some of the best posts in this thread.
Massive amounts of respect to devGAF.
I'm highly appreciative, even of the posts that pissed me (and a lot of others) off, because without them we wouldn't have seen some of the best posts in this thread.
Massive amounts of respect to devGAF.
No, it's C++.
The way we were accessing our files is really slow on a number of X360s, for some reason. Depends on the model of the unit, the HDD state, etc.
We've gotten reports of load times between 7-120 seconds, and none of that showed up in the testing environment.
Howard Alan Treesong
Member
$10,000 well spent!
For just $20,000, Microsoft will upgrade you to Quality Assurance Deluxe, which covers 60% more Xbox 360 models.
"Be Sure of your Assurance - Quality Assurance Deluxe."
Just want to chime in again and thank everyone for their insightful posts.
May not reach too many people, but the people it does reach it makes a significant impact on and it's something they can share with others.
I have to deal with something kind of similar (PC Thread) where literally just about everything is one CTRL+F or 5 minutes of reading away. It's dozens of hours of work distilled to a single post and yet some people cannot spend 2 minutes to read to the bullet points. And it's their money they are spending!
Drive by posting and lack of interest or thinking past an article title makes me very sad. Depth is the beauty of life, so thanks everyone for sharing. I've read every post in the thread and will keep doing so. Next time I see some of you I'll have to buy some beers.
May not reach too many people, but the people it does reach it makes a significant impact on and it's something they can share with others.
I have to deal with something kind of similar (PC Thread) where literally just about everything is one CTRL+F or 5 minutes of reading away. It's dozens of hours of work distilled to a single post and yet some people cannot spend 2 minutes to read to the bullet points. And it's their money they are spending!
Drive by posting and lack of interest or thinking past an article title makes me very sad. Depth is the beauty of life, so thanks everyone for sharing. I've read every post in the thread and will keep doing so. Next time I see some of you I'll have to buy some beers.
I'd add in a 1a: Game *players* are unpredictable rogue elements which can behave in unexpected manners at any given moment, and you need to successfully cover all contingencies.
I'm constantly amazed at how much more painless it is to debug business software (where we can generally trust the user to not be actively antagonistic!) than it is to debug games software (where the user can and quite probably *will* attempt anything they can)
As an example of how small changes can have big consequences, here's a fun read about how one tiny feature in a text adventure led to a combinatorial explosion requiring a ton of code work and debugging:
http://www.xyzzynews.com/xyzzy.6h.html
Wyndstryker
Member
If the reactions in this thread is the reason developers don't talk much.
Then publishers speaking up about things is like trying to find a dinosaur and a dodo bird.
Nonetheless, it was good to have the meat of a number of development issues come to light for the vast majority of people have no clue about it.
Then publishers speaking up about things is like trying to find a dinosaur and a dodo bird.
Nonetheless, it was good to have the meat of a number of development issues come to light for the vast majority of people have no clue about it.
AlphaTwo00
Member
I'll try not to derail this, but I gotta ask: What kind of background experience you had coming in to Gunman Clive? ~6 months on the iOS/Android release is pretty typical from what I read, but I felt so amateur not being able to pull something decent within a 6 month window.
I also want to add, this would be just for feature implementation testing. You may still end up with a round of QA stuff that is just general "playtest until you find bugs, replicate and report" testing.
freenudemacusers
Member
a bunch of people exposing their real-world ignorance and being crushed by those with it.
I think indies in general like to share this sort of information. It's fun to talk about the development, good times and bad. Some of us (myself included) aren't allowed to say too much, due to NDAs and publisher relations, but this really is a transparent industry compared to something like the film or music business.
And of course that's the beauty of the postmortem. It gives us a chance to reminisce and occasionally vent.
Checked out the trailer on that page, very well put together man. Any plans for release on another platform?
In the SSF2T arcade cabinet there is actually a debug mode that lets you look at all the sprite sheets. There is a ton of re-used parts and very little full-body animation. For example when you crouch and do a kick you might use the same head sprite as some other move, the same body sprite as another move, and just the leg itself will actually be a unique sprite.
Parallax Scroll
Banned
I got all :3 during the Evo fundraiser stream when I realized Kimlinh also did the voice for Fidget.
Well, I tried out the Demo earlier...and I was gonna wait on a sale, but after reading that I'm off to go buy me a points card.
I've worked as a programmer on various studios for about 5 years previously, most notably at Grin where I worked on Bionic Commando Rearmed. I was also part of Might and Delight during the startup and worked on Pid for about a year before leaving to go solo. I've only really done 3D art on a hobby level before though, and some very basic Maya courses at uni. Gunman Clive was my third smartphone game, the one before did not make a lot of money and the the first one was more of a joke app than a proper game.
I think the issue that some people have is that there is a difference between "how do we do this project?" vs "how do we do this project given our organizational structure?"
Some Kickstarter (and IndieGoGo I assume) campaigns take salaries and overhead into account and some ask just for the money directly required for a specific project. For example a Kickstarter for a board game that wants to go into production may ask just for the amount of money required to professionally produce X copies, a Kickstarter for a music album may ask just for the money required for studio time and engineering - not payment for the person making the album.
This leads to crowd-funded projects which are not directly comparable to each other. There's no right or wrong way, it's just different.
Personally I prefer feeling like I'm funding a project vs feeling like I'm funding the company behind the project. That's not a value judgement, it's just my gut reaction. In this case given that the character is being offered for free funding the company makes sense given that there's literally no other source of revenue.
Paying salaries with crowd-funding (as opposed to for temporary outside work, though the line can get blurry) strikes me as a little weird. I'm warming up to it but my initial exposure to Kickstarter was through a friend scrapping together money for indie films so initially the idea of paying salaries with crowd-funding was extremely odd to me.
I guess in the end I feel like paying for a specific project can get that project done but paying salaries through crowd-funding does not make for a viable business.
That's not in any way intended as a knock on the Skullgirls guys. Best of luck to them.
Edit: Also as a rule GAF is completely clueless about every aspect of video game development.
This kerfuffle made Polygon. Not the GAF thread specifically, but a follow-up article of sorts.
Except these are not donations, you are getting stuff for your money. Tangible rewards.
You just need to stop, like now. Aren't your arms tired from the massive hole you keep digging?
He's got a tool to help him dig holes.
RiccochetJ
Gold Member
A Pretty Panda
fuckin' called it, man
I think this one's my favorite.
Rickenslacker
Banned
The last 7 or so pages were good reads. Makes me glad to have stumbled into this thread and makes me more appreciative of the work that goes into these confounded time wasters we love to indulge in.
Robert at Zeboyd Games
Banned
Very interesting to read this stuff since it's so drastically different than the kind of stuff we do for our RPGs.
Right now, we're using between 11-30 frames of animation per character or enemy. Probably going to increase this on our next game (in particular, I'd like the player characters to have more animation). Well over 100 characters+enemies in Precipice of Darkness 3 & 4. 16-bit style so the animation doesn't need to be anywhere near as complex as the HD art in Skullgirls.
The bulk of slash000's (he's the sole artist on our games & will probably jump in here later to correct all my mistakes) time is spent on creating the maps for the game.
Our average map in Precipice of Darkness 4 is about 10 full-screens in size.
All of the map art is created by slash000.
A typical map has 3 layers - a base, foreground, and shadow layer. Some maps have a background layer as well (like if you're looking over a cliff).
Shadow layer is created separately for each map to take into account specific light sources (I think this helps a great deal towards making the maps look good, as opposed to the easier method of just baking the shadows directly into the tiles).
Number of frames of animation varies from map to map. We usually don't go beyond 4 frames per layer though.
To be honest, I'm constantly amazed at how quickly slash000 can create maps by himself given the quality involved. I mean, he'll frequently pop out an entire main story dungeon (which could be anywhere between 3-8 maps) in under a week and make it look like this (http://zeboyd.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/RS4_prSc6.png) or this (http://zeboyd.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/RS4_prSc2.png).
Right now, we're using between 11-30 frames of animation per character or enemy. Probably going to increase this on our next game (in particular, I'd like the player characters to have more animation). Well over 100 characters+enemies in Precipice of Darkness 3 & 4. 16-bit style so the animation doesn't need to be anywhere near as complex as the HD art in Skullgirls.
The bulk of slash000's (he's the sole artist on our games & will probably jump in here later to correct all my mistakes) time is spent on creating the maps for the game.
Our average map in Precipice of Darkness 4 is about 10 full-screens in size.
All of the map art is created by slash000.
A typical map has 3 layers - a base, foreground, and shadow layer. Some maps have a background layer as well (like if you're looking over a cliff).
Shadow layer is created separately for each map to take into account specific light sources (I think this helps a great deal towards making the maps look good, as opposed to the easier method of just baking the shadows directly into the tiles).
Number of frames of animation varies from map to map. We usually don't go beyond 4 frames per layer though.
To be honest, I'm constantly amazed at how quickly slash000 can create maps by himself given the quality involved. I mean, he'll frequently pop out an entire main story dungeon (which could be anywhere between 3-8 maps) in under a week and make it look like this (http://zeboyd.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/RS4_prSc6.png) or this (http://zeboyd.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/RS4_prSc2.png).