I work in video games and it still seems expensive to me.
In particular:
48,000: Staff Salaries - 8 people for 10 weeks
Why do you need 8 people for 10 weeks to make a character when a lot of the work is outsourced?
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"How the hell does *that* cost $X to make???" (Giant Bomb and Skullgirls)
- Thread starter dLMN8R
- Start date
I work in video games and it still seems expensive to me.
In particular:
48,000: Staff Salaries - 8 people for 10 weeks
Why do you need 8 people for 10 weeks to make a character when a lot of the work is outsourced?
Forsaken82
Member
WTF? If there are companies out there letting their employees work only 25% of the time, than they are doing something wrong. Not sure what company you work for, but that shit would never slide where I work
All of the work that's outsourced is everything besides the important part of actually creating a compelling character that people actually want to pay for that's worthy in quality compared to the actual game.
8 people working to create that? It's not unreasonable at all.
Oldschoolgamer
The physical form of blasphemy
Kinda OT, but doesn't the IRS get a huge ass cut from this money as well?
shira
Member
Make free to play MOBA with ~100 charachters.
Sell hats.
Let the community design hats.
Profit.
I think the main problem is that people aren't really familiar with the game, and don't know how ambitious the game is. I thought it was more of an indie title, and while I vaguely remember thinking the game had nice animation from the little I'd seen of it but I didn't know it was really anywhere this smooth after looking at it a bit more closely. The breakdown did look somewhat odd at first since it made it seem like all the animation work was outsourced, but after seeing the dev panel it makes a lot more sense (I still have no idea how hitboxes are an external cost though).
150k is certainly a believable figure for a professional studio and this level of animation but you could easily make a decent indie fighter for way less; it wouldn't be the same game, but probably closer to what people unfamiliar with the game think it is.
150k is certainly a believable figure for a professional studio and this level of animation but you could easily make a decent indie fighter for way less; it wouldn't be the same game, but probably closer to what people unfamiliar with the game think it is.
Yabdbadbdadbda
Banned
oh im pretty sure these guys would have no problem kickstartererering a skullgirls animated series with how eager their fans are to pay exorbitant amounts of money for a single new character
Because there's just that much work to be done on it. Also, not all of the full-time staff are related to the character art pipeline, but other necessary, specialized positions. You think MikeZ can draw?
LOL. I hope it's not Budweiser.
Ragingnight
Member
guys fighting games aren't worth more than 20 bucks tops. All those japanese dev just want to take your money and say its expensive.
Cmon where aare all the money going if they don't even have a story mode? It can't take more than a week tops to Q/A a fighting game. Just make sure the attacks hit and do damage. TADA
Also who is cristina vee?
Cmon where aare all the money going if they don't even have a story mode? It can't take more than a week tops to Q/A a fighting game. Just make sure the attacks hit and do damage. TADA
Also who is cristina vee?
CrazyArcadia
Member
Reading this thread saddens me... if it's the same ignorance most teams of artists/devs are confronted with, I can see why so many people devalue any kind of creative work 
Reminds me of a discussion I had about current entertainment products and fair pricing where the other party was all like "Yeah, these are artists, shouldn't they be happy that their work is seen or heard at all? True artists don't strife for money blablabla"...
I think all has been said by the right people in this thread about how much effort goes into concept, animation, programming, game testing, polishing if a certain quality and a deadline has to be met (and now think you even have to do and pay marketing on top of that...). The 8 people are probably the core team doing key animation, game and character concept, arranging everything, integrating new stuff in the game. People don't work for free, studios and office space won't rent themselves for free, contracts have to be met... and PROPER 2D graphics do not mean "cheaper to make" than 3D... (I remember some German review magazine stating that something like Wario Land Shake is of such low production value because of the 2D graphics and gameplay that it should have been a 10$ download game)
This is quite different from sitting down in your free time to develop some indie-flashgame or mod "on the side" over huge amounts of time - Which also requires much more work and dedication than many people give credit, I don't want to devalue that at all coming from the same corner doing sprite based animation and stuff for super-small scale stuff (and which is why there are so many unfinished indie projects no one ever hears about because we mostly get to see finished work but I'd assume on every finished work follows a dozen or so games that will never see release and this is probably a huge understatement...).
Props to the Skullgirls team, I would hope for many more small scale teams to come out and break out their costs so that maybe more people learn that GOOD high quality products just don't come into existence just like that... If people think this is too much money, well... there are free or cheaper products, good luck finding the few that actually are of great quality production value comparable to things that cost more money and require more manpower... and if I understand correctly, this is basically a free update for most?? What even is the problem then? "Doing quality entertainment stuff costs money"?
edit: page 7 actually is quite cool
Reminds me of a discussion I had about current entertainment products and fair pricing where the other party was all like "Yeah, these are artists, shouldn't they be happy that their work is seen or heard at all? True artists don't strife for money blablabla"...I think all has been said by the right people in this thread about how much effort goes into concept, animation, programming, game testing, polishing if a certain quality and a deadline has to be met (and now think you even have to do and pay marketing on top of that...). The 8 people are probably the core team doing key animation, game and character concept, arranging everything, integrating new stuff in the game. People don't work for free, studios and office space won't rent themselves for free, contracts have to be met... and PROPER 2D graphics do not mean "cheaper to make" than 3D... (I remember some German review magazine stating that something like Wario Land Shake is of such low production value because of the 2D graphics and gameplay that it should have been a 10$ download game
)This is quite different from sitting down in your free time to develop some indie-flashgame or mod "on the side" over huge amounts of time - Which also requires much more work and dedication than many people give credit, I don't want to devalue that at all coming from the same corner doing sprite based animation and stuff for super-small scale stuff (and which is why there are so many unfinished indie projects no one ever hears about because we mostly get to see finished work but I'd assume on every finished work follows a dozen or so games that will never see release and this is probably a huge understatement...).
Props to the Skullgirls team, I would hope for many more small scale teams to come out and break out their costs so that maybe more people learn that GOOD high quality products just don't come into existence just like that... If people think this is too much money, well... there are free or cheaper products, good luck finding the few that actually are of great quality production value comparable to things that cost more money and require more manpower... and if I understand correctly, this is basically a free update for most?? What even is the problem then? "Doing quality entertainment stuff costs money"?
edit: page 7 actually is quite cool
Kai Dracon
Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
With the hang-up on the fact that 8 programmers/designers are working for 10 weeks on the game - doesn't this also as a matter of course include:
- Working on further updates, bug fixes, refinement, and features for the game engine and overall product.
- Working on, you know, the PC version / Steam release, its expanded online features, etc.
- Further design work on characters beyond this first DLC character when time allows so that they are somewhat prepared should the opportunity to make more DLC arise.
I mean, part of the point here is: Lab Zero is basically resurrecting this game from the dead. They *are* the company, not just a few staff members who are fiddling around for 10 weeks. While the primary focus is on getting this DLC character out in a short amount of time, by virtue of the fact that they are the core staff (the only staff) there is naturally other things they must tend to while during the time development of the game is resumed.
- Working on further updates, bug fixes, refinement, and features for the game engine and overall product.
- Working on, you know, the PC version / Steam release, its expanded online features, etc.
- Further design work on characters beyond this first DLC character when time allows so that they are somewhat prepared should the opportunity to make more DLC arise.
I mean, part of the point here is: Lab Zero is basically resurrecting this game from the dead. They *are* the company, not just a few staff members who are fiddling around for 10 weeks. While the primary focus is on getting this DLC character out in a short amount of time, by virtue of the fact that they are the core staff (the only staff) there is naturally other things they must tend to while during the time development of the game is resumed.
Nabs
Member
This is just one character http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jv6H90hhEU
This is why economics is referred to as the dismal science.
It is the analysis of sacrifices, and knowing you can't have everything you want so you need to make choices. It is the science of tallying up the totals, and seeing how every little piece that doesn't seem so expensive on its own adds up and suddenly you see the grand total and think "holy cow how did I get here."
This is hardly the first time that many members of NeoGAF seem stunned, disbelieving the economic realities of the marketplace. There are still people who believe that EA/Take 2/etc. are all raking in the money so all this DLC stuff is just an extra cash grab on top of their already enormous profits.
It is the analysis of sacrifices, and knowing you can't have everything you want so you need to make choices. It is the science of tallying up the totals, and seeing how every little piece that doesn't seem so expensive on its own adds up and suddenly you see the grand total and think "holy cow how did I get here."
This is hardly the first time that many members of NeoGAF seem stunned, disbelieving the economic realities of the marketplace. There are still people who believe that EA/Take 2/etc. are all raking in the money so all this DLC stuff is just an extra cash grab on top of their already enormous profits.
TheGreyHulk
Member
i would have done all of that for $1,000 and two pallets of mountain dew
and the end result would have been something that looked like it was created for $1,000 and two pallets of mountain dew.... it would be terrible
and the end result would have been something that looked like it was created for $1,000 and two pallets of mountain dew.... it would be terrible
StopMakingSense
Member
A lot of all games are outsourced these days... why are there even developers?
How about we make you the producer for this character, give you the 150k and the outsourcing contracts, you should be able to get that done, yeah? I mean they are all doing the real work, no?
One of the things I've grown most weary of in Kickstarters is games with extremely low target goals. Knowing what I know about software development and its complexities, I'd rather a developer be up front, honest, and realistic about the goal they set out instead of low-ball it with some figure in the tens of thousands for a project involving multiple people for many many months or a year.
I don't feel like contributing to a project where the developers wildly under-value their own skills and/or don't understand how complex and unpredictable software development is. If they don't think that their own time is worth minimum wage or slightly above, why would I want to trust contributing to a project where that's basically all they'd get paid?
I don't feel like contributing to a project where the developers wildly under-value their own skills and/or don't understand how complex and unpredictable software development is. If they don't think that their own time is worth minimum wage or slightly above, why would I want to trust contributing to a project where that's basically all they'd get paid?
One of the animators for the game, Bahi JD, has done animation for the anime Kids on the Slope and currently works for the anime Studio 4C.
Go for it.
sorakirosaki
Member
One of the animators for the game, Bahi JD, has done animation for the anime Kids on the Slope and currently works for the anime Studio 4C.
That animation O_O so good
This is why you don't discuss with consumers how much shit costs. Clueless people will judge you from their experience of working in a pawn shop.
But on the other hand there are people who appreciate this kind of transparency so it kinda balances out.
But on the other hand there are people who appreciate this kind of transparency so it kinda balances out.
Aside from whatever taxes are levied by the IRS, IndieGogo will take 4% and their payment processors will take around 3% as well. There are also additional fees for failed payments if IndieGogo handles it the way Kickstarter does, and if those backers don't or can't to correct the issue that caused the failure that obviously lowers the final total.
That said, the fees skimmed off the top generally aren't a big deal as well-run campaigns will take estimates of them into account from the beginning.
So $48000 for a single character. I wonder how much Banpresto spent animating this single character.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wo_TDS-yMc
I hope Banpresto does a budget breakdown of a typical high-end SRW someday like these guys did.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wo_TDS-yMc
I hope Banpresto does a budget breakdown of a typical high-end SRW someday like these guys did.
Armoured Priest
Member
On top of the bold, game developers often work more hours comparatively speaking.
ephemeral garbage
Member
Agreed, this is a huge red flag to me. I almost didn't contribute to Radio the Universe, even though it looked amazing, because the guy was asking for so little that he's almost guaranteed to burn out / have to get a real job.
Lab Zero are being really transparent and awesome and I'm glad it's going so well for them. This thread is depressing my balls off though. Seriously guys, at least go read the OP's article before you talk shit.
BomberMouse
Member
I think common sense here is right.
They could justify however the fuck they want their $150.000, that doesn't mean it doesn't make sense. $150.000 for one characters is way to much, they are clearly not optimizing their budget.
When you are an indie team struggling for money you have to be stupid to design a game that requires $150.000 for a single characters.
They could justify however the fuck they want their $150.000, that doesn't mean it doesn't make sense. $150.000 for one characters is way to much, they are clearly not optimizing their budget.
When you are an indie team struggling for money you have to be stupid to design a game that requires $150.000 for a single characters.
Comparing the animation between that video and SG is ...like nowhere near close.
sorakirosaki
Member
Obviously 10 dollars and a bottle of coke
Seriously though some of the stuff Banpresto does for the SRW series is pretty damn amazingStopMakingSense
Member
Yeah, if anything, this number is a pretty severe low ball estimate for the type of work they are doing. I feel terrible for the developers in this situation. This thread, lol
Natty Light
This article made me realize I was taking the Skullgirls budget for granted but it's pretty sad how with multiple corroborating sources certain people are still trying to act like arm-chair analysts (even some of them claim to be software developers in other industries).
I expect temp bans coming for people who are smart enough to acknowledge the cost but too easily infuriated by the malevolent stupidity being displayed in this thread.
Eh, most kickstarters are planning to sell their game after it's finnished, and with no proper investors they'll keep all the profits. Asking for any more than the bare minimum for the development is kindof shameless when they're hoping to make money from the project people are donating to. It's also possible they'll be funding the rest themselves
But really, reading this whole thread, the ignorance and dismissiveness of the animation and programming process is as embarrassing as it is depressing. It's one thing to not know how something works, it's another to be proud of not knowing and claim you could easily do better for five bucks.
Master Milk
Member
The Indiegogo fund drive is funding the characters it mentions it's funding. If the drive is overfunded but stretch goals aren't met, then the money would go towards other ways of improving the game and adding content to it, like adding taunts, new stages, etc.
Barring that, other features are a separate thing. The PC version has nothing to do with this, for instance. There's no reason for the team to work on future designs for free when they might not come out. That's a lot of work for a maybe. Their time would be better spent actually doing something productive.
Raging Spaniard
If they are Dutch, upright and breathing they are more racist than your favorite player
The most interesting (and unnerving) thing is that Lab Zero has been more open and transparent about their costs than any other company I can think of ... but yet people are complaining about a lack of transparency.
That makles no sense at all and its a good reminder of why its sometimes better to not tell the consumer shit, because instead of shutting them up, it gives them a false sense of knowledge and start demanding even more.
That makles no sense at all and its a good reminder of why its sometimes better to not tell the consumer shit, because instead of shutting them up, it gives them a false sense of knowledge and start demanding even more.
darkblade77
Member
They were originally backed by a publisher, who can't pay or support them right now because they're caught up in litigation over a different game. Skullgirls had a budget of 1.7mil.
Pachterballs
Banned
They probably inflated cost to get more cash.
I totally don't believe it would cost that much
I totally don't believe it would cost that much
Banpresto saved some time and money by doing puppet-style animation (drawing separate parts which they then move around instead of drawing every frame by hand) ...so it's not exactly comparable to Skullgirls.
But I'd be interested in their breakdowns, too. Maybe it'd help more people understand that 2D isn't some cheap, easy process even when the studio takes shortcuts.
So...did you even read the article?
So it's worth pointing out that most people generally think of outsourcing art (or QA, or anything else) as being less expensive than having in-house artists perform a task. Not always true. For iterative tasks, such as art, having a proper high-quality outsourcing house do the work can be extremely expensive. The cost goes higher the more revisions you request--we're talking thousands of dollars per revision for something as simple as a 2D concept. The higher you want to set your quality bar, the more expensive it's going to be. The more content you want to tackle, the more likely you'll need to resort to outsourcing to meet a deadline.
$150k doesn't seem unrealistic to me at all.
$150k doesn't seem unrealistic to me at all.
ElectricKaibutsu
Member
I've noticed from the quotes in the article and the people in this thread who have been involved in game development, the $150,000 cost is reasonable. The people in this thread who have no knowledge of game design, or have tangential knowledge of one aspect of game design (software development, recording a band), the cost is too high.
From this evidence, if this were a courtroom, the judge would find the $150,000 a reasonable amount.
Dismissed?
From this evidence, if this were a courtroom, the judge would find the $150,000 a reasonable amount.
Dismissed?
Revisions used to cost thousands in the audio world as well.
Heart of Black
Member
No, unless you have it left over at the end of the year. It's not profit (which is what you are taxed on).
OVERRULED! I bet I could be a judge for 1/3 of thier salary...all I have to do is yell at people and bang a gavel.
So basically you didn't read the article or this thread at all.
Femmeworth
Banned
I thought the title was a dig at the character designs. Heh.
Interesting to see the breakdown.
Interesting to see the breakdown.
Booker Dewitt
Member
Probably get that shit done in a afternoon too.
CrazyArcadia
Member
Now I love the style and gameplay of SRW, but looking at their animation, it's handdrawn but the robots consist of many parts which are moved around instead of being handdrawn frame for frame and effects and animation consisting of much zooming around characters and backgrounds - which shows. A SRW with SG-kind of animation for every single robot would probably bankrupt Banpresto ^^" There are many "shortcuts" to make something which roughly resembles proper 2D-animation but it's really not (cf. Flashanimation), but for another higher quality example look at Vanillaware games. They look stunning for what they are and ooze style, but many side characters and enemies are animated in a rather simplistic manner. Moving around single body parts, resizing, stretching, re-forming - characters instead of frame by frame animation found in games like SG or KoFXIII. Just compare some gameplay vids and observe these differences. Also note that I in no way am saying these look bad or anything, but one can clearly see where Banpresto and Vanillaware take shortcuts to keep costs down. You can get a good looking game out of this, sure, but this just won't cut it for most fighting games or games strifing to look like a real animated cartoon (again, Wario Land Wii with animations by Production IG iirc or the more recent, yet a bit awkward and not really fluid at times Toki no Towa JRPG by Namco).