Raging Spaniard
If they are Dutch, upright and breathing they are more racist than your favorite player
Can you be banned for thinking games are made by pressing the magical MAKE GAME button??
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"How the hell does *that* cost $X to make???" (Giant Bomb and Skullgirls)
- Thread starter dLMN8R
- Start date
Can you be banned for thinking games are made by pressing the magical MAKE GAME button??
Master Milk
Member
You want to know what the team is going to be doing for eight weeks?
Why don't you listen to the development process from the developers themselves?
Alright, I'm out.
Yeah, and then drop those files into the right voiceover folder and you're done! I'd estimate $40 for the whole thing TOPS.
Nice stealth edit.
However given your summary of people in this thread as "EAT SHIT RRRAAWWWRTRRR" (a thing no one is doing) im sure youd find a way to fuck up comprehending any explanation given to you
Yo I got an app on my phone that lets me record shit, and while were at It can use this other app on my phone that lets me make drawings with my finger...I got this shit and it only cost me $2.
Yo disney...hire me.
10101
Gold Member
I've got a Blue Snowball and a pop filter, am I a professional voice actor yet???
The physical rewards are an incentive to try and get some people to fund the game. If you go for a physical reward you'll essentially be covering the cost to make them, ship them and the game development. Well, at least in theory anyway.
Are you for real? How is doing their jobs somehow not cutting it?
XANDER CAGE
Member
As I have said about eleventy million times in this thread already, who do you think actually implements all the animation, voicework, and design into the actual game? Who do you think drafts up documents explaining what the animators need to animate? Who do you think discusses the hitbox design of the character to the person working with the sprites? Do you think these disparate people are all just shoving their respective parts into a google doc that's then baked into an executable and farted onto xbox live?
Also the game's budget was around one and a half million, I think someone cited it earlier.
You do realize most developers (especially small developers) don't have this kind of equipment already right? To record voices they have to pay a voice actor and rent a recording booth for that time as well, and usually you're paying fees towards their equipment costs.
The reason everything is highly specialized is because that is the only god damn way to have a professional product. One person who only focuses on making 2D art is going to be awesome at it (and faster) compared to someone who splits their time. If you have a team that each specializes in one thing, that product will simply be better than a comparable product made by one or a few jack of all trades. It is also going to release faster.
So maybe if everyone here would stop wanting highly polished games we could downsize game developers and development times by making everyone work on everything.
Littlegator
Banned
This shit right here. This is the shit I was talking about. This isn't allowed on GAF.
I'm skeptical that it takes 8 people 10 weeks of full time work to design a program a character in an engine that is functionally complete. You've just equated my skepticism that it takes all of that work into me thinking it takes no work.
Again. $150k a pop means the character budget for this indie game was $2.85 million. Excuse me for being skeptical that an indie studio had that much money.
Are you shitting me right now? Of course they'll be doing their jobs. I was talking about specifics. I want to see how those 3200 hours were budgeted.
blitzcloud
Banned
Rounded prices are really part of the problem people may be having.
It all seemed to add up to an exact 150k pretty well.
It all seemed to add up to an exact 150k pretty well.
Fair enough, but...where's your math coming from? There are eight characters. 150k * 8 = 1.2 million, not 2.85 million.
Cosmonaut X
Member
SSSSSH! If you let everyone know about the MG Button the cushy ride is over, man!
RiccochetJ
Gold Member
Actually in light of this, I wonder what something like a Minerva's Den cost to make. Or hell, a full on expansion pack like DA: Awakening
Way to willfully ignore the two posters who answered you question and focus on someone who is understandably fed up.
It just got ignored by the dude asking for it smdh
fuckin budgets how do they work
Littlegator
Banned
Yeah excuse me on that. I counted the characters from a list but it didn't include playable characters.
It's not 2.85m but 1.2m.
yeah I give up, any amount of skepticism about this budget apparently translates to LOL GAMES RNT FREE
XANDER CAGE
Member
If you're so skeptical, you at least read the indiegogo page you are skeptical about.
Mutanthands
Member
Were expecting an exact estimate, to the cent? They are still in the process, they won't have the exact numbers until it is all said and done.
Cosmo Clock 21
Banned
Lmao do you have a patent application for this idea or something? Like I said dude I have done personal projects (and even contributed to some open source stuff) before, yes I still "maintained" my family and no it did not have a negative impact on them.
Cheers for picking my timescale you sound like some of my clients
Really I don't see what you are getting at and this is seriously OT so I am stopping now.
No shit I'm choosing your deadline; if I were a client I'm not going to say "okay just finish this project whenever you feel like it, I'm just going to keep paying you the per weekly amount stated on the contract". Three months is about the length of time Lab Zero expects to complete Squigly in, which is in line with past charcters in the game.
My point is that you're claiming you can develop software which can generate content at a level at par with or exceeding the quality of what the Skullgirls animation team expects (which you seem to believe is a solved problem) in some sane amount of time, in your spare time.
Littlegator
Banned
This is gaf. Threads move fast. Those people posted while I was typing my response.
timetokill
Banned
All this, not to mention that I know people that worked on this game initially and there were some REAL fucking lean times. As in, going without pay for stretches because they were late, or funding hadn't come in yet, etc. It's not like these guys were living the high life.
Forsaken82
Member
Ask yourself this same question after you play Injustice.
Yes
MoonLightWave
Member
So much outsource contracting.
Paper Sparrow
Member
Huh, what an interesting article. Let's just check the comments...
...
...
... Wow.
No wonder no one wants to 2d animate anymore.
...
...
... Wow.
No wonder no one wants to 2d animate anymore.
Modders also need no money from it bc they have other jobs.
You're talking about a rather expensive commercial studio and union standards, which are far above what most in this profession are actually paid. 80% of (good, worthwhile, non-shitty - of which there are few) audio engineers in the world make way less than anything in that figure. It's good you mention the director's expense though, as I hadn't added that in.
Either way it's not a lot of money, but I disagree that a significant portion of the cost would go to recording by default.
Judging by the budget list it look like they only have 8 or so guys.
XANDER CAGE
Member
Maybe the eight people in-house aren't professional sound engineers, testers, or people able to handle all of the thousands and thousands of polished frames required in 2D animation.
Littlegator
Banned
If you're so skeptical, you at least read the indiegogo page you are skeptical about.
I don't think you understand. They gave a line item budget. The first part of the line item budget, the largest line item, is incredibly vague. While I understand that it takes SHITLOADS of work to make a game, I do not believe that 3200 hours is an appropriate time budget for a single character, considering the outsourcing and hitbox contractor budget. I am simply pointing that out.
So many people are jumping down my throat because they think I'm incompetent enough to think this shit costs nothing. I'm not, so stop being assholes about it. I just want a breakdown of the largest portion of a line item budget for a crowdfunded project.
Raging Spaniard
If they are Dutch, upright and breathing they are more racist than your favorite player
Soo you want to see an hour by hour breakdown of how a programmer and designer do their jobs and you think I'm being ridiculous.
Like, your attitude gives me zero desire to answer your question. Zero.
They were also before the post you later edited in to respond to.
If you just want to cherry pick the people you feel are going "raaaawwwr" and "should be banned" and ignore the people actually answering your question (with information already in the thread) why even bother discussing.
XANDER CAGE
Member
But it's really not that vague. Me and several other people have pointed out what the work in "programming and designing" actually means. Plus, your bizarre demands for an even more detailed breakdown sort of preclude you from acting as if the people who are annoyed at you are being ridiculous.
Phoenixazure
Member
maybe if they didn't have to deliver it in 3 months. If you want something good and fast, you gotta pay more, if you want something good and cheap, spend time.
Tallshortman
Member
I'm talking exactly about skullgirls. They should be able to reign in costs better regardless of hand drawn sprites. It certainly looks like they can cut out salaries and go with contracted work.
N
Noray
Unconfirmed Member
I really hate it when the media does the whole "gamers are entitled man-children!" thing. But then this thread, and some of the fucking people in it... either they didn't read the article, or they just refuse to confront their own ignorance. Clearly not understanding what rendering 1000+ unique 2d HD frames entails, but insisting they totally get it. Not understanding that balancing a fighting game is the single most important thing and no, it can't be done by a single fucking person in a week or two. God damn.
BTW, God of War 3 cost around $44 million to make. Games don't just magically happen.
BTW, God of War 3 cost around $44 million to make. Games don't just magically happen.
LOL The Lang Zone has you. Is this already a joke or did you just start it? I love it.
Ugh. What the hell is with GAF today?
Their publisher is legally bound to withhold venture capital for DLC development after a loan fuckup unrelated to Skullgirls. Skullgirls' main method of funding is frozen until that wraps up (And it may go away forever if things turn for the worse).
Skullgirls actually sold quite well with it's NA release. It also sold quite handily in Japan and easily secured the #1 spot on the JP PSN.
Voice actors, like any actor, are paid relative to their past expertise and training, not for how many hours they've worked in a studio or on a set.
The game uses contractors to speed up development, not to find cheaper labour. The in-house artists do the brunt of the art direction and main keyframes.
If I remember correctly, the costs and process for technical QA is mandated by Konami as terms for their backing. On top of that, extensive playtesting has to be done either way. While Mike Z made a lot out of loke tests at tournaments and gatherings, skilled balance testers should be paid for their work. Due to how consoles work, they only have a chance to patch the game when new characters drop. Since they can't acquire backing for this from their publisher, the crowd-fund has to take this into account.
A lot of the people who talk shit about the in-game assets haven't touched the game, nor have they compared it to similar work. I capture raw footage of this kind of stuff regularly. A small studio of plucky developers have TOPPED what A-list devs have been doing for years for less, while paying their workers and contractors, what I assume is, reasonable wages.
I mean shit. Who could we call redundant at LabZero right now? Go watch their animation panel. The guy who made the engine (Mike). One lead illustrator (Ahad). Two in-house animators. Their cleanup guy (I would consider having one on hand as mandatory). A sound guy.
They also have a dedicated PR dude and what I assume is someone handling legal and business.
I would consider that the bare minimum for a project of this magnitude. They are stomping developers in some areas, those of which are much better staffed and have much higher budgets.
Their publisher is legally bound to withhold venture capital for DLC development after a loan fuckup unrelated to Skullgirls. Skullgirls' main method of funding is frozen until that wraps up (And it may go away forever if things turn for the worse).
Skullgirls actually sold quite well with it's NA release. It also sold quite handily in Japan and easily secured the #1 spot on the JP PSN.
Voice actors, like any actor, are paid relative to their past expertise and training, not for how many hours they've worked in a studio or on a set.
The game uses contractors to speed up development, not to find cheaper labour. The in-house artists do the brunt of the art direction and main keyframes.
If I remember correctly, the costs and process for technical QA is mandated by Konami as terms for their backing. On top of that, extensive playtesting has to be done either way. While Mike Z made a lot out of loke tests at tournaments and gatherings, skilled balance testers should be paid for their work. Due to how consoles work, they only have a chance to patch the game when new characters drop. Since they can't acquire backing for this from their publisher, the crowd-fund has to take this into account.
A lot of the people who talk shit about the in-game assets haven't touched the game, nor have they compared it to similar work. I capture raw footage of this kind of stuff regularly. A small studio of plucky developers have TOPPED what A-list devs have been doing for years for less, while paying their workers and contractors, what I assume is, reasonable wages.
I mean shit. Who could we call redundant at LabZero right now? Go watch their animation panel. The guy who made the engine (Mike). One lead illustrator (Ahad). Two in-house animators. Their cleanup guy (I would consider having one on hand as mandatory). A sound guy.
They also have a dedicated PR dude and what I assume is someone handling legal and business.
I would consider that the bare minimum for a project of this magnitude. They are stomping developers in some areas, those of which are much better staffed and have much higher budgets.
how long would this Simple animation take to make?
I could do that in my sleep, during the weekend, for like $60 tops. I have a Casio keyboard and a computer if you need music and sound effects too. Let's say, $40 extra for that and a couple of beers if you have some.
darkblade77
Member
Bolding this section since there's another part that should be explained here.
Fighting game engines are character-driven. There aren't very many controlling entities or managers that regulate how gameplay 'works'. Motion and collisions are typically not driven by a physics engine.
Everything about how a character moves and interacts with external forces is essentially constrained and written for that character alone. And it's done largely through manual transitions, because fighting games are made to be deterministic.
There will naturally be some methods and actions and other things you will template and generally design so that they work the same across all characters, but by and large you have to do the meat of how the character 'works' from scratch every time you make a new one. So having a working 'engine' isn't the same kind of boon here that it is for other genres of games.
Kai Dracon
Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
This thread and the thread on Giant Bomb are reminding me of those sorts of people who complain about merely the balance in a fighting game and say something to the effect:
"Well DUH! Just change the frame data on Ken's standing roundhouse kick and make Guile's flashkick push back more! I done fixed the whole game w' 3 minutes work, no wonder CRAPCOM sux!"
"Well DUH! Just change the frame data on Ken's standing roundhouse kick and make Guile's flashkick push back more! I done fixed the whole game w' 3 minutes work, no wonder CRAPCOM sux!"
Why are you skeptical? Again, this is a process you aren't familiar with, at all. You might be a software engineer, but you have never worked on a 2D fighting game. For all I know, you aren't even in the games industry.
Do you honestly think Lab Zero is lying about how much things cost and how many people are necessary so they can go "Ha ha, joke's on you sucker!" and take the last two weeks of dev time off to sip Mai Tais in Oahu? You think Marvelous and Konami didn't scrutinize their budget and timetable?
And Filia actually has the fewest number of animation frames, at around 1200.
Let's see your portfolio.