DUFFMCWALIN
Member
You program fighting games?
-
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"How the hell does *that* cost $X to make???" (Giant Bomb and Skullgirls)
- Thread starter dLMN8R
- Start date
You program fighting games?
Yabdbadbdadbda
Banned
gaf couldnt even get dudebro off the ground
im seriously laughing my ass off at the wannabe devs in here
The 8 people are more than likely the programmers and designers.
Cosmonaut X
Member
Raging Spaniard
If they are Dutch, upright and breathing they are more racist than your favorite player
You have to be kidding.
Ive done the process myself, its not easy and the amount of animations per character is VERY high (highest in its kind, actually!). On top of that we do the shading as well, then send it out for edits. The leads are the in-studio artist who make the main animations and do all the revisions, which is a monstrous amount of work, you try to manage 20+ people while having to draw, animate and cleanup the most important in game art.
Also surprising that you as a fellow artist would bring the cost as a negative. 600 a week for fulltime employees (and much, much less for the outsourcing) is borderline minimum wage and this kind of work shouldn't be done for free, that devalues the integrity of the industry. I do the work because I have a passion for the project and the people involved, but if I was depending on it to live I would starve.
People thinking that these characters are simple to animate and clean up clearly have not done much 2d animation before, if at all. Consistent detail and line thickness across all the outsourcers, making it look like one artist did all the drawings for a character when in reality its closer to 20 ... Im used to being taken for granted by non-artists, but when somebody who should know better spouts this stuff, its pretty disheartening.
i've been a software engineer (not video games) for 6 years. you're talking out of your ass. 150k is pretty cheap for a full char when assets, designing, and testing are included.
no, but neither does any of the staff hired to make this character apparently.
No it doesn't, what it shows is that despite using 3D models to speed things up they still had excellent 2D artists and animators working on it.
3rd Strike was good but at the same time the quality is not consistent between characters and you get things happening like 4 shotos reusing a lot of the same animation, same with Yun/Yang. And after 3 entries it still didn't have nearly as much of a cast as the new KOF.
That would be helpful yes. I'm interested in the 8 people for 10 weeks part personally.
JakkuFurosu
Member
Master Milk
Member
Which costs are you looking for more information on?
Here's that same panel I listed, only this is part one instead of three. Even though I know people enjoy being outraged, anyone that actually cares should give this a look. It's the team talking about making the game. There's lots to learn from it.
Holy shit, this thread is full to the brim of people who have absolutely no fucking clue how 2D animation works.
Outsourcing inbetweens does not mean outsourcing all animation, for one. Keyframes need to be drawn. Cleanup of the roughs. Inking, which has to be consistent. Coloring. Storyboarding what's even going to be animated because it's not like Lab Zero just hands out model sheets and tells their contractors "okay do whatever YOLO!!!1".
No wonder so many games this gen have been terribly animated graybrowns in UE3 at 30fps. The effort and expense involved in doing anything else appears to be unwanted and unappreciated.
Outsourcing inbetweens does not mean outsourcing all animation, for one. Keyframes need to be drawn. Cleanup of the roughs. Inking, which has to be consistent. Coloring. Storyboarding what's even going to be animated because it's not like Lab Zero just hands out model sheets and tells their contractors "okay do whatever YOLO!!!1".
No wonder so many games this gen have been terribly animated graybrowns in UE3 at 30fps. The effort and expense involved in doing anything else appears to be unwanted and unappreciated.
DUFFMCWALIN
Member
You should quit your job and go show them how its done superman. I believe in you!!!!!
Peter Bartholow, CEO of Lab Zero Games:
That about sums up how I feel right now. I'm really turned off by the level of cynicism and ignorance in this thread. Why are so many of you acting like adding a new character to a fighting game is but a game jam away? I guess there really are that few of us who actually know what it takes to make this sort of thing happen.
That about sums up how I feel right now. I'm really turned off by the level of cynicism and ignorance in this thread. Why are so many of you acting like adding a new character to a fighting game is but a game jam away? I guess there really are that few of us who actually know what it takes to make this sort of thing happen.
I'm too busy doing my work and not outsourcing it to everyone else
Cosmo Clock 21
Banned
So you're going to be doing this for free, in your spare time along with your full-time job, over a period of three months, while still maintaining your family?
BronsonLee
Member
Your field is only the same in that you help create software, you don't program fighting ga-
DAMMIT BEATEN
Dev G-A-F is worst GAF? (I say that, but really all GAF is worst GAF)
...wat
I thought Reality Fighters was silly. Oh my god
Yabdbadbdadbda
Banned
well for one making a good game helps
Sure, but these people are supporting unsustainable development. Either they are going to have to keep asking/begging for money upfront or they shut down. If it works for them, great, but it is walking a tight rope with people's jobs at stake.
It's absolutely amazing to me how little a majority of you know about how much work it takes to create a game.
"automatic animation tools"
are you serious? Like, really? Ask ANY animator -- game industry or otherwise -- they'll tell you those are, for the most part, complete garbage.
The amount of time it takes to model a character, texture it, rig it and make sure all the joints are painted correctly -- this is all before the animation begins -- is expensive in itself. Then the animation actually begins which takes a lot of time to get looking good, especially if it has to blend in/out of other animations or loop. Then you have to bake it, which can cause a TON of errors in engine that need to be fixed.
Christ, guys. Come on.
"automatic animation tools"
are you serious? Like, really? Ask ANY animator -- game industry or otherwise -- they'll tell you those are, for the most part, complete garbage.
The amount of time it takes to model a character, texture it, rig it and make sure all the joints are painted correctly -- this is all before the animation begins -- is expensive in itself. Then the animation actually begins which takes a lot of time to get looking good, especially if it has to blend in/out of other animations or loop. Then you have to bake it, which can cause a TON of errors in engine that need to be fixed.
Christ, guys. Come on.
Ok, $3500 worth of recording time. I could record an entire album on that. Average cost would yield about 45 hours.
BRocknRolla
Member
Insofar as the point of this is "shit is expensive," I get it, and I think this is illuminating.
However, I think it brings to light some questionable costs as well. For example, a studio of 8 requires ten weeks to make one character? Granted I'm unclear on how much development is required for something like a new character in a fighting game, but given that the game is finished, and this is a matter of slotting in someone new, does it really take an 8 person studio to make one new character happen? Or is it more a matter of keeping an 8 person studio employed for the sake of having a studio? Maybe it really does all make sense, but it makes me wonder.
However, I think it brings to light some questionable costs as well. For example, a studio of 8 requires ten weeks to make one character? Granted I'm unclear on how much development is required for something like a new character in a fighting game, but given that the game is finished, and this is a matter of slotting in someone new, does it really take an 8 person studio to make one new character happen? Or is it more a matter of keeping an 8 person studio employed for the sake of having a studio? Maybe it really does all make sense, but it makes me wonder.
XANDER CAGE
Member
This thread is going to drain my current bottle of scotch, I can tell. Jesus fuckin' lord. Suze Orman GAF is here, ready to oust the shyster developers of Skullgirls.
Yes, the conversation here should be "wow, this is illuminating about how expensive games are and is this sustainable?" not "I could do this for free modders do it for free why isn't this free."
Yes, the conversation here should be "wow, this is illuminating about how expensive games are and is this sustainable?" not "I could do this for free modders do it for free why isn't this free."
ROFL. That is so hilariously bad.
Where is the retweet button on GAF? I can't seem to find it.
I'm pretty sure the VA wants more than $500.
Patrick Klepek
furiously molesting tim burton
Hmm.
Yabdbadbdadbda
Banned
ive worked in game development before. i can tell you right now at least half of the dev time is spend diddling around shooting the shit and doing stuff inefficiently. all studios are like this
so yes ten weeks does sound normal for a tiny ass indie studio that most likely wont be working to their fullest capacity, especially since the game is already released that theyre making the content for
Yeah, but a week making an awesome fighting game character could get a job at Lab Zero where you'll be grossly overpaid for doing close to nothing. Dream job, dude.
DUFFMCWALIN
Member
Good report Kleptok.
Did you read the article in the OP? Dave Lang, CEO of Iron Galaxy Games, gave a pretty clear breakdown of how expensive it is to create just one character for a 2D fighting game. Seth Killian stepped in to vouch for the costs, too, and he knows fighting games better than most people.
All assets are frozen due to the original developer being sued in a completely unrelated manner, until the lawsuit clears up. As far as my knowledge...nobody on the team has been paid for their work due to the lawsuit.
The game sold pretty well, and recently had a very succesful japanese release earlier this month, it's still currently topping the japanese PSN sales chart two weeks running
They're also releasing a steam version later this year.
I know what VAs make. I'm using the figure of "Most of that does not go to the actor."
If we were going by good terms with an unknown, the actor would cost $4000 alone.
Let's be *conservative* and say it would only take one session at five hours (above union limits, but this a non-union project) to record. $200/hr is *extremely* low, even by non-union standards, but let's go with that.
You need to rent out the studio for five hours, which once again, an *extremely* low estimate being $200/hr if you want proper gear, soundproofing, and equipment. You also need at least one sound engineer and the director, whose salaries have to be paid. You have significantly more work being done on the backend in editing, mastering, and balancing, and then actually being put into the game with correct timing, moveset correlation, and placement.
Jesus, this thread.
That video does make the art situation a lot more clear. Didn't realise there were that many contractors doing clean up
GazzaScotland
Member
The cost of physical rewards threw me off a little. So if you contribute but don't go for any of the physical rewards, some of your cash could go to paying that off? Or is a case of if you go for a physical reward you are covering the cost of that but not helping to fund the other things?
Some people are immune to the Lang Zone. @_@
Or just didn't read the lengthy block quote.
Pretty much but try and tell that to the self identified experts™ who claim to know the ins and outs of developing a 2D fighting game.
10101
Gold Member
Lmao do you have a patent application for this idea or something? Like I said dude I have done personal projects (and even contributed to some open source stuff) before, yes I still "maintained" my family and no it did not have a negative impact on them.
Cheers for picking my timescale you sound like some of my clients
Really I don't see what you are getting at and this is seriously OT so I am stopping now.
BronsonLee
Member
I just like that this thread exists (in multiple forms!) about how the costs are legit, and yet the experts/couch devs here are outright blatantly ignoring the corroboration/agreement of the costs being either standard or low budget from:
Someone who had just written an article specifically about the cost (Klepek),
Someone who's been developing games for years and is helping put out Divekick (Lang)
Someone who worked on arguably the highest budget and most mainstream fighting series this gen (Killian)
And the creators of the damn game.
I don't know a damn thing about the cost of developing games. So you know what I do?
Not claim I do.
Someone who had just written an article specifically about the cost (Klepek),
Someone who's been developing games for years and is helping put out Divekick (Lang)
Someone who worked on arguably the highest budget and most mainstream fighting series this gen (Killian)
And the creators of the damn game.
I don't know a damn thing about the cost of developing games. So you know what I do?
Not claim I do.
BurnOutBrighter
Banned
$4000 for voice recording lol. Maybe if you don't have any equipment already.
yeah, but DUDES HAVE BEEN IN BANDS BEFORE.
XANDER CAGE
Member
Lmao do you have a patent application for this idea or something? Like I said dude I have done personal projects (and even contributed to some open source stuff) before, yes I still "maintained" my family and no it did not have a negative impact on them.
Cheers for picking my timescale you sound like some of my clients
Really I don't see what you are getting at and this is seriously OT so I am stopping now.
I hate to burst your bubble but like I said before, that kind of software already exists and has existed for a while.
Just say the script into my Dynex bro, I just grabbed it at Best Buy!
Littlegator
Banned
What's with the people saying "EAT SHIT GAMES COST A LOT"? Can someone answer the question of what 8 "programmers and designers" are going to be doing for 10 weeks? "Programming and designing" doesn't cut it.
Btw, $150k a pop means the character budget for this indie game was $2.85 million.
Btw, $150k a pop means the character budget for this indie game was $2.85 million.
Recording on your uncle's 4 track in his garage doesn't count.
timetokill
Banned
Good god at this thread. I've always hated the "e" word when targeted at gamers but this thread is making me reconsider that stance in this situation.
Why would a brand new indie game studio own a professional recording studio?
SixMachine
Member
To the person who is somehow caught up on outsourcing, have you read up on how animated products are made in general? Not just 2d graphics for a game but cartoons and such. Shows like Spongebob cost around $500k for an 11m episode and a lot of it are outsourced. The core artists draw the main frames and have other people handle in-betweens. A lot of modern anime even outsource to korean studios to get stuff like that done. And also one of the artists needs to be on deck to make sure everything matches up from the work they receive from other people (Even when making manga someone has to make sure there is no style conflict between the artist and work received from assistants). They have people on the core team making the key frames, which is pretty easy to assume they do because Alex Ahad, the guy who designed the art style for the game is right there and obviously has been working on it even during the downtime.